[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

He's not in the business of proving Himself to anyone.

I'd be fine with that if he wasn't in the business of screwing us over when we don't believe he exists.

[subego]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I've seen and heard things -- first hand and literally -- that most of you enjoy on a TV/movie screen "fright-flick."

Weird puppet dudes who lock you in a contraption and force you kill your roommate and dig the key out of their stomach?

Or are you watching different fright flicks?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I'd be fine with that if he wasn't in the business of screwing us over when we don't believe he exists.

The agnostic/atheist friends I have don't feel "screwed over by him," so I don't know what to tell you.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

The agnostic/atheist friends I have don't feel "screwed over by him," so I don't know what to tell you.

Well, theoretically speaking. But it does seem like a bad deal for me if turns out to be true.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by subego 

Weird puppet dudes who lock you in a contraption and force you kill your roommate and dig the key out of their stomach?

Or are you watching different fright flicks?

"We mock what we do not understand."

[subego]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

The agnostic/atheist friends I have don't feel "screwed over by him," so I don't know what to tell you.

You don't feel that sometimes God appreciates irony, you know... a little too much?

[MacosNerd]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

It would require a significant problem for which "God" is the best answer. I see it as similar to how a clinical trial has to show that the medicine works better than a placebo. So far, I don't believe religion has managed to pass this test.

Well not to state the obvious but that's where faith comes in. He requires us to believe/act on faith.

Even so, having such plain and upfront evidence some people will still choose not to believe. I think of the Israelites in the desert is an excellent example. They had the pillar of cloud in the day and the pillar of fire at night. On so many occasions they chose not to trust God even though they saw first hand what he has done.

As to the OP's question, I'm not sure because I know I don't have all of the answers. I also know that God is not going to fill me in on the intricacies of his plans. To that end I try to live my life by faith knowing he has my best interests at heart.

[subego]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

"We mock what we do not understand."

If there's anything I'm not understanding here, it is entirely due to you being stingy with the deets.

[ironknee]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

So, like these discussions always end up: someone wants proof. Yet, anyone that knows much of anything about God will tell you He's not in the business of proving Himself to anyone.

so no proof of god and god doesn't need to be proven....nice and logical

[ironknee]

you know god could turn the whole world into christians if he showed up for 1/2 and hour and said yep i am real....

that's all.

and, why is it taking jc 2,000 years to come back when he said in the bible, i will be back?

that's two thousand years!

some say things must happen before he comes back...like israel, etc...god doesn't need no stinking signs...he's god. he can come back anytime he wants....right?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Even so, having such plain and upfront evidence some people will still choose not to believe. I think of the Israelites in the desert is an excellent example. They had the pillar of cloud in the day and the pillar of fire at night. On so many occasions they chose not to trust God even though they saw first hand what he has done.

That's the point. There never has been any 'plain and upfront evidence'. Only vague signs and people who claim that they had direct communication with God in some way or another. What makes Abraham any more believable than Joseph Smith or David Koresh? The only 'proof' of these things requires that you already believe in them to begin with. It's tautological.

The pillar of cloud and pillar of fire? There are many possible alternate explanations for that any of which is at least as plausible as God playing TomTom.

And that's assuming that there's any truth to the story at all. There's no particularly good reason to believe that the Bible is an accurate source of information. A few things in it are certainly corroborated by other sources, but that's hardly proof that the rest is anything more than a fiction.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by el chupacabra 

So smac when did you become and atheist? What "shook" your belief?

I can never remember a time which I believed in any God. Even as a kid I said I did but it really just never made any sense to me.

Maybe I just misread your previous posts in other threads.... As usually I try to just skim through them knowing you aren't really trying to make much sense as much as just starting flame fests.

Sometimes I can be a jerk but "usually" is an overstatement and it is rarely to start a flamefest. If I am a jerk it's generally just how I am choosing to express myself. Especially when certain people, whom I otherwise like, post about certain subjects. Even in this thread I was being an ass and I had a moment of remorse after I clicked submit, but it would have been dishonest of me to retract it since the points I was making are sincere. I could have just used a little more tact.

I do believe in faith, I just don't think that has to mean faith in "God" or any other made up omnipotent beings.

[ebuddy]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

For the believers, what would it take to make you seriously doubt what you believe.

My faith fluctuates and there are times when I seriously doubt what I believe. Logic and reason tug against reason and faith. Sometimes a profound event shakes my faith, other times it emboldens my faith. Ultimately, I can't shake it. It bothers me and pleases me. It tests me and affirms me. I find at times I have faith in the teachings of man and faith in the teachings of God through man. Sometimes it burdens me and sometimes it drives me. There are times when I've actively tried to shake faith only to return to my knees in humility.

I've seen it succeed in those close to me who claimed to have needed it, but fail among the noteworthy who claimed to have had it. I've seen behaviors I can only categorize as evil and I've seen behaviors worthy of sainthood. I've seen men in business stumble and stammer. I've seen entire collectives of mankind with the goal of one actionable item yet fail to produce it. I've seen mankind build great empires on very little. I've seen man travel to space and back and I've seen our best blow up within 75 seconds of take-off.

I believe there is absolute truth, but I'm not certain mankind can define all of it accurately, regardless of the discipline they use in trying.

So... what would it take to shake my belief? The same things that brought me to it and keep me with it. I guess that's why they call it a walk and not a ride.

[RAILhead]

And once again, you lot fail to realize "your" disbelief is equal to "our" belief insofar as faith goes. So, while you high-five Stupid Christians/God Lovers, looking down upon us less intelligent or enlightened as you, we of Faith look to you, and feel pity that you're only beginning to scratch the surface of what true and abundant life really is.

It's unfortunate that more people don't come to experience God, but it is what it is. What I always find interesting is that -- usually -- those of us that claim Faith are so much more tolerant toward your ignorance than you are toward us.

Imagine that.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

And once again, you lot fail to realize "your" disbelief is equal to "our" belief insofar as faith goes. So, while you high-five Stupid Christians/God Lovers, looking down upon us less intelligent or enlightened as you, we of Faith look to you, and feel pity that you're only beginning to scratch the surface of what true and abundant life really is.

It's unfortunate that more people come to experience God, but it is what it is. What I always find interesting is that -- usually -- those of us that claim Faith are so much more tolerant toward your ignorance than you are toward us.

Imagine that.

Who are you talking to? This is a discussion about evidence, and how much evidence is required to accept big answers to difficult questions. The whole premise of this discussion is that those who lack faith could conceivably find it under certain hypothetical circumstances (of course in that case it wouldn't be faith, but knowledge, which is a different thing altogether).

Keep in mind that there is variety amongst non-believers just as there is amongst believers. Some are as adamant that there is no God as others are that there is. Some say they don't know and are actively seeking the answer. Some say that it is unknowable and a waste of time to think about it. Some say that whether it is knowable or not there simply isn't strong enough evidence to conclude that God (or the supernatural in whatever form) is the better answer.

In only one of those cases is 'our' disbelief equal to 'your' belief. I don't speak for all the non believers here anymore than you speak for all the believers, but I do not fall into the category that adamantly denies that there is any way that God is the answer any more than you fall into the category of believers called Hari Krishna (I assume...).

I simply believe that God, or gods, or spirits, or whatever, are unnecessary to explain why things are the way they are; I have not, in my life, seen or experienced anything that would require the existence of the supernatural. Certainly there are things that we as a species do not understand. It may well be that there are things that we simply aren't capable of understanding, maybe even things that we will never be capable of understanding. However for all the unexplained phenomena that we have observed in our millennia of history (as well as the explained phenomena), there are multiple possible explanations. For all those things, one possible answer is, as always, the supernatural, just as it was when people believed that the Sun was the wheels of Apollo's fiery chariot. But there are other possible answers, and I, for one, don't see how the supernatural is a better answer or a more likely one than the others. It seems to me that it's a mere fiction, something that people invented to comfort themselves when they encountered inexplicable things such as lightening, old age, and death, and no person, book, or experience has ever given me reason to believe otherwise. I do not have faith that there is no God any more than I have faith that there is one; faith means accepting something without evidence, something that I generally do not do.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by MacosNerd 

Well not to state the obvious but that's where faith comes in. He requires us to believe/act on faith.

Of course. And that's kind of the problem with faith-based religions — if we're believing without a good reason like I said, we shouldn't be blamed or praised for choosing one over another, because it's basically a blind guess anyway. Faith could just as easily be directed towards Jesus, Allah, Kwan Yin or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I used to be a very ardent Mormon, but one of the things that gradually turned me into an atheist was the realization that people had exactly the same kind of faith I did in completely contradictory things. Faith was obviously unreliable as a path to truth or salvation.

[subego]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

It's unfortunate that more people come to experience God, but it is what it is. What I always find interesting is that -- usually -- those of us that claim Faith are so much more tolerant toward your ignorance than you are toward us.

Funny, from the way you've behaved so far what you call "tolerant" is generally known as "insufferably smug".

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by subego 

Funny, from the way you've behaved so far what you call "tolerant" is generally known as "insufferably smug".

Yes, I am that way -- mainly because these threads end up being nothing more than faith-bashing, etc. Just wait, it'll happen. When it does, I'll simply shake my head, hope the people the best, and pray that someday they'll experience a life that's not limited to this pale world around us.

I don't bash anyone for not believing or accepting God by faith, through His works, in the lives of millions of people -- yet people constantly bash the faithful who do. You know this is the case on these forums, and to deny that's so is crazy-talk. So yeah, any time a religious thread starts up, a lot of us get into "they know not what they do" mode, just like some of the Global Warming People think those that don't believe as they do are misguided.

As far as proving God exists, God didn't establish the church so that the non-believer could visit, get convinced, then become a believer. God established the church to equip those that are already believers, so that they can have a closer relationship with Him. In so doing, the life of that believer would become an example -- a light in the darkness -- through the "fruits of the spirit". That personal change would then be what others see in that believer's life, and that would then drawn the non-believer to want to know more about God.

Point being, nothing that's said on a message board will convert anyone. Only a changed life will -- in conjunction with a relationship with that person. The problem is, all you see nowadays are the Bad Christians or TEH HYPOCRITE, and people wash the whole lot. Like Catholic priests, in today's mindset, every one of them are molesters -- but only a small few truly are.

So, the nutjobs define our faith because that's what get publicity. At some point, yeah, I just become "oh well, hopefully one day they'll meet someone that will show them God's love. Until then, I wish them the best."

[subego]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yes, I am that way -- mainly because these threads end up being nothing more than faith-bashing, etc. Just wait, it'll happen.

Let me get this straight. You are that way now because of something which is going to happen.

You really think "just wait" is going to fly as a defense for your behavior?

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

So yeah, any time a religious thread starts up, a lot of us get into "they know not what they do" mode, just like some of the Global Warming People think those that don't believe as they do are misguided.

I would say that the Global Warming people who do this are assholes. So you are saying "I'm an asshole, just like the Global Warming people"?

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

So, the nutjobs define our faith because that's what get publicity.

Indeed.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by subego 

Let me get this straight. You are that way now because of something which is going to happen.

You really think "just wait" is going to fly as a defense for your behavior?

I have nothing to defend. I really do feel sorry for those of you that live such limited lives. Unfortunately, there's not much I can do about it over TEH INTARNET.

I would say that the Global Warming people who do this are assholes. So you are saying "I'm an asshole, just like the Global Warming people"?

You may think so, yes. I've been in theological discussions with people and when it gets down to brass tacks and I just say, "look, you just don't get it, and I feel sorry that you don't," I've been called an arse. I know I'm right as much as you think I'm not, so I'm as smug in my beliefs as you are in your disbelief. NOTE: "you" doesn't necessarily mean you, personally.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

So, while you high-five Stupid Christians/God Lovers, looking down upon us less intelligent or enlightened as you, we of Faith look to you, and feel pity that you're only beginning to scratch the surface of what true and abundant life really is.

Hey irony!

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

And once again, you lot fail to realize "your" disbelief is equal to "our" belief insofar as faith goes. So, while you high-five Stupid Christians/God Lovers, looking down upon us less intelligent or enlightened as you, we of Faith look to you, and feel pity that you're only beginning to scratch the surface of what true and abundant life really is.

It's unfortunate that more people come to experience God, but it is what it is. What I always find interesting is that -- usually -- those of us that claim Faith are so much more tolerant toward your ignorance than you are toward us.

Imagine that.

What planet are you living on?

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Hey irony!

I see no irony. Me feeling pity for those who don't know God in no way compares to the anti-Christian sentiment that pervades threads of this nature.

[Shaddim]

There's no reason to take the bait from the usual cast of characters. You know the repercussions of demeaning people of faith, it isn't pleasant for them.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I see no irony. Me feeling pity for those who don't know God in no way compares to the anti-Christian sentiment that pervades threads of this nature.

So when atheists say you're badly wrong and wasting your life on foolish nonsense, that's one thing. But when you say atheists are badly wrong and wasting their life on foolish nonsense, that's another?

I'm not trying to troll — it just looks to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

I have nothing to defend. I really do feel sorry for those of you that live such limited lives.

[Chongo]

looks like atheists have their own Saul of Tarsus
Antony Flew - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Amazon Online Reader : There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

So when atheists say you're badly wrong and wasting your life on foolish nonsense, that's one thing. But when you say atheists are badly wrong and wasting their life on foolish nonsense, that's another?

I'm not trying to troll — it just looks to me like six of one, half a dozen of the other.

That's my point: neither is "better" than the other. That's what makes the world go 'round. So, why can't we all just get along?

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

That's my point: neither is "better" than the other. That's what makes the world go 'round. So, why can't we all just get along?

Because those of us who are atheists are resented, if not downright hated, by much of the American population. We have no chance of being elected to public office, except in a select few places, unless we lie about our beliefs. We get no respect when we voice our objections to some of the more obviously religious aspects of our society (explicit mentions of God all over official government statements and documents). We are ridiculed, reviled, and asked to just shut up and keep it to ourselves, while Christians, Jews, and to a lesser extent Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, &c. are allowed and even encouraged to express their beliefs publicly. On the rare occasion that people don't simply run screaming, ignore, or try to convert us for publicly expressing our beliefs we're pitied and condescended to by sanctimonious assholes who tell us that they feel sorry for us for our lack of faith. We're told that people are sorry that we're going to hell. We're told that it's a shame we can't experience the glory of God. We're told that we're essentially lacking as human beings, and barely qualify for that title.

And, frankly, we're sick of it.

[RAILhead]

Sucks to be you, it truly does.

But wait -- I thought you guys always say we Christians have a persecution complex?

[dcmacdaddy]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

Because those of us who are atheists are resented, if not downright hated, by much of the American population. We have no chance of being elected to public office, except in a select few places, unless we lie about our beliefs. We get no respect when we voice our objections to some of the more obviously religious aspects of our society (explicit mentions of God all over official government statements and documents). We are ridiculed, reviled, and asked to just shut up and keep it to ourselves, while Christians, Jews, and to a lesser extent Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, &c. are allowed and even encouraged to express their beliefs publicly. On the rare occasion that people don't simply run screaming, ignore, or try to convert us for publicly expressing our beliefs we're pitied and condescended to by sanctimonious assholes who tell us that they feel sorry for us for our lack of faith. We're told that people are sorry that we're going to hell. We're told that it's a shame we can't experience the glory of God. We're told that we're essentially lacking as human beings, and barely qualify for that title.

And, frankly, we're sick of it.

WW!

That's a lot of whining. You give atheists a bad name with that kind of whining. How about you just accept that if you are going to complain about religion in the public sphere that the religious are going to complain about you complaining. But guess what, you all are entitled to do so; You all are entitled to speak your mind. That's what makes this country great.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Sucks to be you, it truly does.

But wait -- I thought you guys always say we Christians have a persecution complex?

It's not a persecution complex when you actually are an unpopular minority.

[RAILhead]

Yet only a small few fringe "Christians" actually do anything remotely close to persecution of atheists. Actually, I can't think of the last news item regarding someone doing something to someone because they were an atheist.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by RAILhead 

Yet only a small few fringe "Christians" actually do anything remotely close to persecution of atheists. Actually, I can't think of the last news item regarding someone doing something to someone because they were an atheist.

I think that what nonhuman said was overstated but his points are exactly right.

[Atheist]

To get back on topic, it can't be too difficult for non-believers to reassess their ideology. All it takes is for God to walk up and prove he is who he's purported to be. Shouldn't be too hard since he's all-powerful.

That's said, I'm not holding my breath.

[Jawbone54]

I'm a pentecostal pastor's son; I've grown up in a very different world from most people, even most Christians. I think this gives me a bit of unique perspective, but that's not something I'm bragging about. It's just the way my life has been. Both grandfathers were preachers, all but one of my uncles are pastors, my brother-in-law is a preacher, and my father-in-law is a second-generation pastor as well.

That being said, I spent several years as an agnostic. During high school, my family suffered a pretty terrible tragedy, and I developed a real grudge against God. First I questioned His compassion, second His reasoning, and lastly His existence, which I never could reject completely. It triggered three-and-a-half years of absolute hell in my life. I went through severe depression as I fought my family over the issue, and I wound up in counseling (not because I was a self-proclaimed agonistic, but because of other circumstances).

I'm rambling, so I'll get to the point. During the absolute worst period in my life, I had my first undeniable spiritual experience. I won't go into detail (I'm not giving skeptics a reason to rib me), but I'll never be able to shake the memory. It wasn't one of these "saw-the-light" encounters; it was horrible.

I hated the God I doubted, and I wanted to be dead. I just didn't want to kill myself. A few months after my experience, this little former Hindu priestess came to our church (that I was forced to sit through) and talked to me about specific things that literally no one on earth knew about. I didn't say a word; I just listened. After a while, she started praying for me, and I cried my head off for over an hour. I had my second major spiritual experience that night, and I'll just say this about it: it was undeniable for me.

Since then, I've never doubted God's existence or His message. I became a youth pastor almost 5 years ago, and it's been the most fulfilling time of my life, and it's getting better.

The answer to the question: I can't think of anything at all that could possibly shake my belief.

[Oisín]

Originally Posted by Atheist 

To get back on topic, it can't be too difficult for non-believers to reassess their ideology. All it takes is for God to walk up and prove he is who he's purported to be. Shouldn't be too hard since he's all-powerful.

That's said, I'm not holding my breath.

How about if God walks up and proves that he’s not who he’s purported to be; that there is in fact no God.

I wonder what effect that would have (apart from the obvious implosion of the universe as we know it and all that).

[Chuckit]

Wait, a Hindu priestess convinced somebody to become a youth pastor? What?

[freudling]

"For the believers, what would it take to make you seriously doubt what you believe."

Imminent death.

[Kerrigan]

Oisin, I think the scenario you described, of God not being God, has illustrated very well the complexity, and some would say absurdity, of these types of discussions.

The debate over the existence of God, and the merits of scepticism, has gone on for thousands of years and yet we still do not know the nature or meaning of our existence. If a person, whether Christian or atheist, fully and properly applies systematic reasoning in order to discover the true nature of any idea, he will get caught in a solipsistic path of reasoning, from which he will never be able to determine the truth about anything.

In fact, the scenario you described is already very much the scenario in which mankind lives. If you think that God is manifest in Reason (or for certain atheists, that Reason is the true demonstrable God, worthy of our faith over some superstitious divinity), well, Reason has already shown that it is unable to demonstrate even its own existence. This is like saying God/Reason coming before us and saying "You perceive me and my workings through your perspective but I may not really be here at all."

Likewise, If you take God to be the Unknown, or that which is beyond reason's grasp, then that is tantamount to God appearing before us and saying "I am unknown" or "I do not exist in the normal way" or "I may very well be nothing at all", which leaves you with very little to go on indeed.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I'm rambling, so I'll get to the point. During the absolute worst period in my life, I had my first undeniable spiritual experience. I won't go into detail (I'm not giving skeptics a reason to rib me), but I'll never be able to shake the memory. It wasn't one of these "saw-the-light" encounters; it was horrible.

Similar boat here. Although I believed in certain "supernatural" phenomena, I didn't believe in God. Then, within the span of a week a series of events changed my views permanently. It wasn't pleasant, and after it all I wished that I'd just accepted via faith. To this day I still let people know that I have no faith in the existence of such things, I'll not have that choice again.

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Wait, a Hindu priestess convinced somebody to become a youth pastor? What?

Former Hindu priestess turned Christian missionary.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

I won't go into detail (I'm not giving skeptics a reason to rib me)

Ribbing aside, what is wrong with others being skeptical that your experience is what you say it is or that it means what you think it means?

If a person is raised in a fairly "godless" area of the country and is raised by atheists and they have exactly the same type of experience they are pretty unlikely to have new faith in God awakened. Who is right?

I do find it funny that those of you who have had these "experiences" refuse to talk about it. Fear of ribbing is just a cop-out. You don't seem to have a problem expressing your others opinions and experiences without much concern for others' opinions of you. Maybe you are afraid that in given an objective audience that it may, deep down, give you some doubt?

…and talked to me about specific things that literally no one on earth knew about.

[RAILhead]

I have no problem sharing experiences. When I dabbled in the occult, it was common place for us to experience the following:

1. Objects moving on their own.

2. Noises (rappings, whispers, etc.).

3. Severe and isolated temperature drops as we directed.

4. Automatic writing.

5. Immediate and specific answers to personal questions via ouija-type communication devices -- without any human assistance.

6. Physical manifestations leading to bodily injury (bruises, abrasions, cuts).

7. Being physically held in place.

8. Having an entity move objects, turn lights/TVs/appliances off and on as we "commanded."

9. Etc., etc., etc.


All of this did nothing but prove that there is a world around us we do not fully grasp or understand. All this did was solidify that God exists, and that if there really is a Light and Dark, I much prefer the Light. My years in the occult were a dark shadow (as cliché as that is) on my life, though I was invigorated with the feeling of power gained from summoning, commanding, etc. But, that power didn't lead to peace and joy. The further I went into the Dark, the more my soul ached to be back in a close relationship with God -- so I stepped back toward Him.

I have since seen Him bless our family in so many ways I cannot describe them. From restored health, miraculous/unexplained healing of disease, restored relationships, peace through horrific times, etc., we can (in my family) all look back and see His hand moving in our lives. God and Jesus are a constant comfort to us, knowing He is there to guide as we seek Him, as we try to understand Him more each day.

The theology is all wrong (in my opinion), but everyone should read "What Dreams May Come" -- it's quite thought-provoking.

[nonhuman]

My problem with the above reasoning, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, is that once you accept the existence of the supernatural, there is absolutely no way that that you can have reliable evidence for the existence of God. If it's possible for there to be forces that can exert control over the physical environment, especially if it's at all possible for those forces to be directed by the human mind, then there are suddenly tons and tons of possible explanations for any event, all of which are very plausible.

You claim that the light/dark dichotomy of the supernatural is rooted in association with God. But why is it necessarily God? Is God in such a case anything more than a metaphor or tool for understanding the nature of the light/dark? Or, alternatively, could it just be that another person, more versed and more powerful in the manipulation of these supernatural forces, is deceiving you?

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

Ribbing aside, what is wrong with others being skeptical that your experience is what you say it is or that it means what you think it means?

If a person is raised in a fairly "godless" area of the country and is raised by atheists and they have exactly the same type of experience they are pretty unlikely to have new faith in God awakened. Who is right?

I do find it funny that those of you who have had these "experiences" refuse to talk about it. Fear of ribbing is just a cop-out. You don't seem to have a problem expressing your others opinions and experiences without much concern for others' opinions of you. Maybe you are afraid that in given an objective audience that it may, deep down, give you some doubt?

Your response to something I simply alluded to is the perfect example of why I didn't go into detail.

If I know the vast majority of people here are going to dismiss what I say, then why even address it in the first place? This is the reason that I've stayed out of the political lounge for a long, long time.

The only reason some of the skeptical (or as you call them, "objective") people on this board want people like me to discuss that sort of thing is so that they can dismiss it and prove to themselves how scientifically-minded they are.

I'd rather just keep it to myself. If anyone sincerely wanted to know or discuss anything else, they could PM me.

[RAILhead]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

My problem with the above reasoning, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, is that once you accept the existence of the supernatural, there is absolutely no way that that you can have reliable evidence for the existence of God. If it's possible for there to be forces that can exert control over the physical environment, especially if it's at all possible for those forces to be directed by the human mind, then there are suddenly tons and tons of possible explanations for any event, all of which are very plausible.

You claim that the light/dark dichotomy of the supernatural is rooted in association with God. But why is it necessarily God? Is God in such a case anything more than a metaphor or tool for understanding the nature of the light/dark? Or, alternatively, could it just be that another person, more versed and more powerful in the manipulation of these supernatural forces, is deceiving you?

Well, you won't like my answer -- you'll dismiss it -- but here it is, insofar as "literal" or "physical" "evidence." First, though, I must fall back on you (and others) that haven't experienced what I have experienced first-hand will not be able to "reason" this out in the way these various and sundry events happened in reality. Regardless, a quick example of this would be times when...

1. An entity was removed from a place with prayer, as is describe din the Bible. This has happened loads of times when I was with others -- as well as by myself.

2. Commanding an entity to submit to the authority of God.

3. Prayers being answered in a literal sense.

4. Etc.

I could go on and on and talk about all the crazy crap I've seen -- but what it boils down to, is that I have a personal relationship with God through Jesus, His Son. I can't describe that connection any more than a person can describe the connection between a family member or spouse -- you just can't put it into words. I receive His strength daily, I see Him work and move in the lives of people I minister to, I see Him bring peace, joy, fulfillment, etc., to me people every day. I see Him answer prayers, I see Him turn lives around. I see Him make people complete.

I don't know how else to describe it -- it just is. I'm no kook or Bible thumper -- I'm just a dude that realized there was more to this life, and there was a God in heaven that loved me how I was -- not as I was supposed to be.

[Kerrigan]

I challenge anyone here to demonstrate that they have objective knowledge of anything.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Oisín 

How about if God walks up and proves that he’s not who he’s purported to be; that there is in fact no God.

I wonder what effect that would have (apart from the obvious implosion of the universe as we know it and all that).

So this God is a liar, a deceiver, and can't be trusted?

Wasn't this talk about in Golden Compass? Haven't seen it yet, but heard about it.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

I challenge anyone here to demonstrate that they have objective knowledge of anything.

I have objective knowledge that this discussion is occurring.