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Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 06:25 PM

Seeing as the Politburo guy closed the other thead before we were finished talking (I don't care if he's finished talking, we hadn't finished). I'll continue it here. Please continue with new threads yourselves if this thread is closed and you wish to comment further in this FORUM (i.e place where we have considered debate amongst ourselves, without worrying about 'threats' from the powers that be).

Faceless NewsFactor guy..
Please summarise what NF will be doing to repair the damage done to the MacNN site and MacNN's credibility.
So far, since the re-work (it's doesn't qualify as any sort of design), MacNN has
1) Completely failed to report major news over the weekend (Apple Stores opening)
2) Been the *last* Mac site to update with today's news (WWDC, only the most important Apple developer event of the year)
3) changed into a bastion of threats and censorship unheard of since the Politburo.
While the inflamed responses of some of the members has been counterproductive, they have only been made worse by your lack of a decent response to some of them, including mine, which haven't been answered at all yet. This shows a lack of management skill on your behalf unfortunately.

Zwil.

"Q) What's the difference between banging your head against a wall and trying to teach a Windows user about design ? "
"A) Eventually, the wall will collapse."

LoadStar · May 21, 2001, 06:35 PM

Well then. As soon as I was about to hit the post button - blam. Thread closed. So when you see "this thread" in the message below - it's talking about the OTHER thread, the one that is now closed.

NFN: Thanks for attempting to make some concessions to the masses in this thread.

However...

The font is now much too tiny. Your web designers ostensibly use Macintosh computers - could you tell them to grab a 15" monitor or an iMac set to 1024x768, sit with the monitor at arms length (minimum recommended distance by monitor manufacturers) and see if they can clearly read all the stories without straining their eyesight? I know I can't here, and I've got relatively good eyesight and am fairly young. Compare your current page with www.macnn.com/macnn.phtml - the stories now take exactly the same screen real estate, yet because they forego the headlines, the font can be bigger and more spaced out.

The ad column and right-hand column are still completely useless. I still would request that you consider replacing the "MacNN News" with something more useful - I'd recommend the top 10 most active forum threads, along with tech news headlines. Make the space serve a purpose - don't just fill it with whatever your program can generate. There's a rule of thumb in programming - not everything that can be done should be done. Being able to put headlines on a page twice is something that probably should not be done.

As for the ad column - unless you have something you can fill the entire column with, you probably should move it to one side or the other. As it is now, it does tend to make the page look rather imbalanced and left-hand-side heavy. I know I said this already - but take a look at a newspaper or magazine, and try and find one place that they leave space that should be an ad totally blank. It just isn't done. White space is good - but not when it's all grouped together in the center of a page. Spread it out to balance the appearance of the page.

I'd still ask for a font-free, headline-free view, again, similar to www.macnn.com/macnn.phtml - and please, if this was posted without permission, please don't take it down! I've been using it to view the news - it's really the only way I can view the page at this point.

At this point I'm not asking for the old site back. I know the old site is gone forever, never to return. I'm just asking for realistic changes that can make the site look and read much better - allowing you to draw your core Mac audience (back).

And lastly - there have those in this thread who have proved to be level-headed, calm, and have presented well-reasoned explanations of what exactly they have issues with - I hope I'm included in that group. I'd suggest that perhaps NFN would be interested in creating a focus group to establish a new look that keeps in the NewsFactor Network theme, yet is distinctly Macintosh. I'd be glad to volunteer my time - and if it required a small outlay to participate, and it meant that my suggestions would be taken seriously - I'd be happy to do that as well. Take it under consideration, NFN - no great product has ever been created without feedback from those who would be using it.

Corys · May 21, 2001, 06:36 PM

it's amazing to me how much time has been spent on flaming this situation.
Macnn.com offers a free service, if you don't like it, people have offered numerous other alternatives. use one of them.
do you really have nothing better to do than click your refresh button all day and get so wound up you are ready to take arms?

gimme a break...it's a website.
while the new design isn't perfect by any means, i'm sure if constructive critisism were left, things would be changed.
leaving a flaming pile of S*&t will not get anything done.

just my $.02

Nimisys · May 21, 2001, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Zwilnik:
[B]Seeing as the Politburo guy closed the other thead before we were finished talking (I don't care if he's finished talking, we hadn't finished). I'll continue it here. Please continue with new threads yourselves if this thread is closed and you wish to comment further in this FORUM (i.e place where we have considered debate amongst ourselves, without worrying about 'threats' from the powers that be).

Faceless NewsFactor guy..
Please summarise what NF will be doing to repair the damage done to the MacNN site and MacNN's credibility.
So far, since the re-work (it's doesn't qualify as any sort of design), MacNN has
1) Completely failed to report major news over the weekend (Apple Stores opening)
2) Been the *last* Mac site to update with today's news (WWDC, only the most important Apple developer event of the year)
3) changed into a bastion of threats and censorship unheard of since the Politburo.
While the inflamed responses of some of the members has been counterproductive, they have only been made worse by your lack of a decent response to some of them, including mine, which haven't been answered at all yet. This shows a lack of management skill on your behalf unfortunately.

Zwil.
B]

might as well get some post count bumpage before this ones dies (rightly so)

the new management hs been in what a week? nothing transitions that fast. give it some time.

as for the board stuff, get off it. it's thier board and their rulles, work with it or leave. thats the only options here. this has been the least moded board i have ever seen. at [H]ard|Forum, there are probably 100+ threads that get locked/deleted a day.. here you get a bunch of repeat threads cut out and another one that had turned into a flame thread locked and you guys are acting like the world is ending.

Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 06:42 PM

The point is Nimisys, that the people who were contributing to the thread (not just the considerate ones, the flamers too) hadn't finished talking and the thread got locked *just because the new administrator didn't want to continue*. If people want to continue their discussion, they should.

Personally, I'd rather the flamers become a bit more cool about it, but I can see their point, and I think the NewsFactor guy did everything to help make them worse, rather than try to calm them down.

Freedom of speech might not be a right, but it's something you can do.

Gametes · May 21, 2001, 06:44 PM

Viva la Familia MacNN!

[This message has been edited by Gametes (edited 05-21-2001).]

Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 06:46 PM

shhh! don't bring attention to it, they'll change it Gametes!

AlbertWu · May 21, 2001, 06:46 PM

I liked the original MacNN cause it had more contrast.

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[img]nada[/img]

I'm serious now...

griffman · May 21, 2001, 06:47 PM

Darn it, I was hoping the OS X side would stay nice and clean ... now the secret's out!

;-(

-rob.

David R · May 21, 2001, 06:57 PM

I'm mostly a long time lurker with very few posts. I have not said anything about the design. I think it's ugly but if that's what they want to give us, then let them, readership will probably go down, their choice.

But I draw the line when there is censorship. There is no reason why threads need to be deleted and users banned. You are not only going against a simple freedom of speech, but against what Internet and these forums are all about.

So sad to see MacNN go down the train.

Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 07:03 PM

There was also of the disappearing comments. Because NF's bad management decided to delete the comments on the news page that went against their PR, people have just moved to posting the comments about the design on most of the other news items.

Eventually, they'll lose the comments completlely (and the forums will become like the NF ones, you post your comment for 'submission' and if the PR guy thinks you are sucking up to NF enough, it gets posted).

Censorship might be NF's right (hey it's now their site after all), but it's also a good way to lose readers, lots of them. Without readers, no advertisers.

Besides, I think they'd rather we post our comments on the forums here, rather than start talking about it on the other Mac news sites. If the discontent about MacNN became a news item on an opposing Mac site (if there is such a thing). They'd be a laughing stock.

Kosmo · May 21, 2001, 07:04 PM

Somebody help me out here. What do you mean, killed a thread just because he wanted to? Bannes users? Who?

What's going on here? Is there a new management team here? Is MacNN owned by someone else now?

Sorry, I'm been out of the loop. Too busy to research this, a simple synopis would due just fine.

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http://www.manzione.com/
MacNETv2 coming July 2001

Gametes · May 21, 2001, 07:07 PM

David, I totally agree.
I made a few objective complaints about the new layout, almost all of which have been compromised on to my satisfaction by NFN, with the notable exception of the ad-centric columning.
I have not been militant, but I must say that while I respect their right to do as they please with the site -- meaning "I don't get mad about anything" -- I am...given pause by the activity of our new 5-red-stars moderator.

Threads closed, members banned, posts deleted.
Not the actions of the head of a family. I never saw Misha act so childishly.

Having a big red plaque under your name does not mean we respect you.

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you are not your signature

Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 07:08 PM

NewsFactor Network have bought into (or taken over) MacNN. The new, non Mac front end is their fault, and their 'representative' has taken to banning people who say things NF doesn't like (not just the ones who were swearing) and deleting threads that went against them, as well as comments about the site design.
He also now has admin status, but doesn't know how to use it yet (other than closing and deleting threads).

Kosmo · May 21, 2001, 07:38 PM

This is not good

I remember being blasted by a lot of people here over the sig_tag thing. Most people thought I was nuts. But this sounds similar. Making decisions without regard to the members of this forum.

Misha was an angel compared to this new Admin. But the idea is the same. WE ARE MACNN...without us there would be NO MACNN...

So, why the hostility? Don't they know MacNN can die in an instant if enough people went elsewhere...but then again, where?

Where could we go? MacAddict? don't think so....MacFixit. Nope. Ars? nah, but where...certainly there must be some place, maybe some NEW place...a new shoe-string site put up by some real Mac-loyalists.

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http://www.manzione.com/
MacNETv2 coming July 2001

Norm1985 · May 21, 2001, 07:48 PM

I have an announcement to make. Over the past days, MacNN decided to start to destroy itself. They decided to put the site layout that they wanted! The customers didn't like it. The customers complained. They refuse to listen to suggestions. They even limit the customers rights to free speech. It's impossible to contact them by phone, they refuse to talk. And even the content and site updating is becoming poorer and poorer. I refer to us as customers because many of us buy the products from their advertisers and they still get money from us when we visit the site. It acts like TV commercials would. They decided to ban us, delete threads... Etc. We will no longer try to cooperate. We will e-mail all advertisers of MacNN about this outrage and also e-mail other Macintosh and computer sites. We will no longer visit MacNN. We will go on to diffrent forums. Thank you NewsFactor Network, you have ruined a community for me.

NewsFactor Response · May 21, 2001, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Kosmo:

So, why the hostility? Don't they know MacNN can die in an instant if enough people went elsewhere...but then again, where?

Where could we go? MacAddict? don't think so....MacFixit. Nope. Ars? nah, but where...certainly there must be some place, maybe some NEW place...a new shoe-string site put up by some real Mac-loyalists.

If NewsFactor cannot measure up to your standards after doing our best, I want you to know that we would definitely respect your decision to go to any or all of these sites instead of MacNN.

[This message has been edited by NewsFactor Response (edited 05-21-2001).]

Zwilnik · May 21, 2001, 08:13 PM

Don't worry NewsFactorResponseBot, we will go to other sites anyway, as if there's anything you could do about it.
Let me teach you something about customer care. You have customers, you're supposed to care.
If you tell customers to go elsewhere, you lose them, no second chance. If those customers happen to be Mac gurus of any sort (I know a lot of these guys have helped people on the MacNN forums, and that's why people come here), you lose all the customers that they would bring here.
If you're obnoxious to customers, they won't be nice back. Constantly repeating previous messages as if you're right and no-one else can do anything about it counts as pretty obnoxious.
Of course people will dis NFN and yourself. You've done nothing but inflame their feelings since you started posting. On any normal forum, you'd have been banned ages ago.

I don't think I'll go elsewhere for my forums though. It'll probably bug you more personally if you have to put up with us here

Especially if we're reasonable

and right

and aren't at risk of losing our jobs because we've proved how bad at PR we are

(I will be using other sites to get my Mac News though if MacNN can't report it on the same day it happens).

Zwil.

"PC Users are people too. Stupid people, but people nonetheless"

scaught · May 21, 2001, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by NewsFactor Response:
If NewsFactor cannot measure up to your standards after doing our best, I want you to know that we would definitely respect your decision to go to any or all of these sites instead of MacNN.

[This message has been edited by NewsFactor Response (edited 05-21-2001).]

why did you have to change everything? it wasnt broke. why did you have to "fix" it? this was initally about the appearance of the site. now its more about the appearance of this new administrator threatening people who have found a home, civility, friendship, knowledge, etc here at macnn.

your company made an investment in macnn. now youre changing it from what made it macnn into something else. ive asked you, politely, several times why youve done it and still havent recieved an answer. it doesnt make any sense to me from a business perspective. please respond.

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you're going to have my foot at your lip in a minute, young man.

scott

shmerek · May 21, 2001, 09:28 PM

Originally posted by Norm1985:
I have an announcement to make. Over the past days, MacNN decided to start to destroy itself. They decided to put the site layout that they wanted! The customers didn't like it. The customers complained. They refuse to listen to suggestions. They even limit the customers rights to free speech. It's impossible to contact them by phone, they refuse to talk. And even the content and site updating is becoming poorer and poorer. I refer to us as customers because many of us buy the products from their advertisers and they still get money from us when we visit the site. It acts like TV commercials would. They decided to ban us, delete threads... Etc. We will no longer try to cooperate. We will e-mail all advertisers of MacNN about this outrage and also e-mail other Macintosh and computer sites. We will no longer visit MacNN. We will go on to diffrent forums. Thank you NewsFactor Network, you have ruined a community for me.

Norm how many freaking threads can you post this in.

NewsFactor Response · May 21, 2001, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
why did you have to change everything? it wasnt broke. why did you have to "fix" it? this was initally about the appearance of the site. now its more about the appearance of this new administrator threatening people who have found a home, civility, friendship, knowledge, etc here at macnn.

We didn't change everything, as you claim. If you'd put the old design next to the new one, you'd see that the changes are actually very minor.

At this point, we're busy adding some more functionality and redesigning it to reflect that times have changed, and now MacNN is part of our family of technology news sites.

As for me, I've been pushed beyond what anyone can be expected to take and not respond in kind to the handful of problematic people that have plagued this board with non-stop flames.

The Dude · May 21, 2001, 10:09 PM

Non of this flaming would of happened had you not shown up. Instead, we would just be bitching about a simple disagreement on page layout. Instead, you barged in on our community, and expected us to deal with it. UACCEPTABLE!

typoon · May 21, 2001, 10:21 PM

Originally posted by NewsFactor Response:
We didn't change everything, as you claim. If you'd put the old design next to the new one, you'd see that the changes are actually very minor.

At this point, we're busy adding some more functionality and redesigning it to reflect that times have changed, and now MacNN is part of our family of technology news sites.

As for me, I've been pushed beyond what anyone can be expected to take and not respond in kind to the handful of problematic people that have plagued this board with non-stop flames.

We didn't change everything, as you claim. If you'd put the old design next to the new one, you'd see that the changes are actually very minor.

Would be so kind as to put an image of the old one and let us compare the "minor changes" Thanks

At this point, we're busy adding some more functionality and redesigning it to reflect that times have changed, and now MacNN is part of our family of technology news sites.

That's great news! Just remember that Macnn isn't only a technology site it is a Mac site. Dealing mostly with Mac related issues.

As for me, I've been pushed beyond what anyone can be expected to take and not respond in kind to the handful of problematic people that have plagued this board with non-stop flames

I totally agree with you. The flames do get out of hand at times and I'm sure you have tried to show restraint to these flames. Have you seent Mac OS X discussion forums? I think there are more flames there. While I don't condone people flaming others I think that if you just let the flamers be they will make themselves look like idiots. Also from what I have seen here many of the people try to stop the flamers from doing so. If they decide to continue let them do so. They only make themselves look more like fools. People will always find something the want to flame about just let them be.

Just my 2cents

foobars · May 21, 2001, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by NewsFactor Response:
We didn't change everything, as you claim. If you'd put the old design next to the new one, you'd see that the changes are actually very minor.

You gotta be kidding. 90% of the people on this board dislike the new look. A LOT. After two days of complaints all you can say is that the changes were minor? You are seriously misguided.

At this point, we're busy adding some more functionality and redesigning it to reflect that times have changed, and now MacNN is part of our family of technology news sites.

Look everyone agrees new functionality is a good thing. But right now the front page (like your other pages) is a TRAIN WRECK. Too much useless information. If clutter and in-your-face ads are new functionality, screw progress.

As for me, I've been pushed beyond what anyone can be expected to take and not respond in kind to the handful of problematic people that have plagued this board with non-stop flames.

May I remind you that this board has run very well for nearly 3 years without your help. And before you chose to respond these flames were confined to one relatively well behaved thread. Then you stared threatening and banning. Not our fault!

May 21, 2001, 10:53 PM

Please refer to this letter for some insight into things:
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/003031.html

As for the lack of weekend news coverage, this isn't a sign of things to come. This is a result of the "administrative details" that I referred to in the aforementioned letter. Bottom line: we were a little short-handed, and there are distractions abound that we're not used to dealing with.

The same goes for the delayed coverage of this morning's announcements at WWDC. We're all pretty distracted by some administrative issues that have yet to be cleared up, and unfortunately it's resulted in some mishaps thus far. We hope that this won't happen again, and I'm personally working my hardest to make sure that it doesn't.

In case you were too lazy to head to the link above, I'll post it one more time just to stress how much I'd like you to read that letter before commenting further on this situation.
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/003031.html

We're all reading your thousands of comments, and while I'm not in a position to respond to the design concerns, I'm personally putting my usual 110% effort into the content.

Bottom line: We're asking for a little patience and understanding, and we hope that our readers don't jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what is going on here.

Sincerely,

Trevor Covert
Senior News Editor, the Macintosh News Network

typoon · May 21, 2001, 11:17 PM

Originally posted by Trevor Covert:
Please refer to this letter for some insight into things:
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/003031.html

As for the lack of weekend news coverage, this isn't a sign of things to come. This is a result of the "administrative details" that I referred to in the aforementioned letter. Bottom line: we were a little short-handed, and there are distractions abound that we're not used to dealing with.

The same goes for the delayed coverage of this morning's announcements at WWDC. We're all pretty distracted by some administrative issues that have yet to be cleared up, and unfortunately it's resulted in some mishaps thus far. We hope that this won't happen again, and I'm personally working my hardest to make sure that it doesn't.

In case you were too lazy to head to the link above, I'll post it one more time just to stress how much I'd like you to read that letter before commenting further on this situation.
http://forums.macnn.com/cgi-bin/Foru...ML/003031.html

We're all reading your thousands of comments, and while I'm not in a position to respond to the design concerns, I'm personally putting my usual 110% effort into the content.

Bottom line: We're asking for a little patience and understanding, and we hope that our readers don't jump to conclusions or make assumptions about what is going on here.

Sincerely,

Trevor Covert
Senior News Editor, the Macintosh News Network

Trevor, it's great to hear that you are volunteering to put your 110% into it.

Just one question though to the NewsFactor people/person. Couldn't it have been possible not to have made macnn look like all the rest of there sites? The home page looks a lot like there with a macnn logo slapped on it. Couldn't this site have been owned and been a part of NewsFactor Network but run as it's own seperate entity? Many companies do that. The site could have it's own unigue design or kept the original one and not looked like the rest of the NewsFactor Sites.

Just a question I had

oscar · May 22, 2001, 01:19 AM

MacNN Users: Please understand that MacNN was a business, and I'd assume they were given an offer they couldn't refuse. NFN has been more then fair by using these forums to tell us what is happening. I plead with you all to step back, and see what kind of site this This means No swearing, no personal attacks, and it also means we need to all respect each other. There are many emotions flying around about this, please keep these emotions public, but not negative. We all have to deal with this, and if, in the future it doesn't work for you, I'm sorry, but I'm sure users will leave because of this, but I guess that happeneds everyday. Again, we need to keep this civil, or tempers will only want NFn to get rid of us, which they can _VERY_ easily do.
-Mike