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FireWire · Nov 28, 2011, 04:01 AM

Am I the only one who finds the new habit of reloading every tabs constantly really annoying and unacceptable? It's not something I see often on boards, but for me it's a real nuisance... I can't even leave a post or email half-finished while switching page by fear that it will erase everything. It logs me out of several sites for no reason (Hotmail, banking sites, etc) and reset what I've typed in email, forums. I swear if it interrupts a large upload or download I will throw my Mac through the window.. I have 6 GB of RAM goddammit! What the heck, Apple? Who likes to login every 2 minutes? and why should it feel entitled to delete the long post or email I've just spent 30 minutes writing just because I dared read a news article meanwhile?

i'm surprised there haven't been an uproar against this yet!

FireWire · Nov 28, 2011, 04:07 AM

Damn it, it just did it again.. Seriously Apple, Safari used to be the best browser, not it's all crap... yay.. need to log back to hotmail, to my banking site and to my job's site..

Waragainstsleep · Nov 28, 2011, 05:38 AM

Yeah this "feature" blows though my sympathy for you is tempered because you're using hotmail.

Thorzdad · Nov 28, 2011, 08:08 AM

Webkit2 now has a feature called multi-process windows. Essentially, browser function is divided into two discrete processes...UI and Web. This meant to make the browser more stable and secure. Obviously not. The fix is to disable multi-process windows. This requires enabling the Debug menu.

Here is a blog post describing what's happening, the fix, and some downsides to the fix.

Waragainstsleep · Nov 28, 2011, 09:09 AM

It bothers me mostly because I have a tendency to let flash movies buffer for later viewing. It makes this pointless.

TETENAL · Nov 28, 2011, 09:56 AM

When Safari reloads all pages, this is because the renderer process crashed. If this happens a lot, you might want to look at its crash logs to figure out why that is.

FireWire · Nov 28, 2011, 02:01 PM

Oh! I thought it was doing this for memory managing, like on the iPhone! I'm more understanding if it actually crashes rather than doing it on purpose

Big Mac · Nov 28, 2011, 02:11 PM

It sounds like Safari in Lion is nearly unusable. The only reason why I use Safari in SL is because it's quick, it's mostly reliable and it's from Apple, but there are few compelling reasons to use it over Chrome or Firefox if it's going to suck, like it sounds like it does in Lion.

FireWire · Nov 28, 2011, 03:11 PM

Fortunately I'm still using 10.6!

besson3c · Nov 28, 2011, 03:23 PM

What's discouraging to me is not so much the Safari bugs, but that they still exist to this day after all the time Lion has been out.

mduell · Nov 28, 2011, 11:39 PM

Lion is Apple's Vista.

Spheric Harlot · Nov 29, 2011, 03:15 AM

no.

TETENAL · Nov 29, 2011, 07:27 PM

5.1.2 allegedly ddresses this issue.

FireWire · Nov 30, 2011, 12:59 AM

Seems better so far!

P · Nov 30, 2011, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

Lion is Apple's Vista.

Every single version of Mac OS X since the release of Vista has been referred to as "Apple's Vista". We will know that one has actually been "Apple's Vista" when someone starts referring to the latest version of Windows as "Microsoft's Lion" or whatever.

FWIW, I got my first taste of Lion yesterday when I booted my brand new 11" MBA. So far, I'm loving it. With all the scorn heaped on Mission Control, I thought I'd hate it, but it's pretty nice once you get used to it. I don't like that the fullscreen mode hides the menubar, and the Finder defaults are even more inscrutable than they were before, but the overall experience is very pleasant. I've been holding up on the upgrade of the main iMac, but I may jump now.

mduell · Dec 1, 2011, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by P

Every single version of Mac OS X since the release of Vista has been referred to as "Apple's Vista". We will know that one has actually been "Apple's Vista" when someone starts referring to the latest version of Windows as "Microsoft's Lion" or whatever.

I disagree, I never considered Leopard or Snow Leopard to be Apple's Vista.

cgc · Dec 1, 2011, 08:36 PM

Maybe if Apple removed all the debugging code they inserted into OSX around version 10.04 it'd be better

Spheric Harlot · Dec 2, 2011, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by mduell

I disagree, I never considered Leopard or Snow Leopard to be Apple's Vista.

Snow Leopard Could Be Apple's Vista - personal_tech Blog

Could Snow Leopard Be Apples Vista? - MacRumors Forums

Will Snow Leopard be Apple's Windows Vista? - CSMonitor.com

Is Snow Leopard Apple’s Vista? | Blog | ZiggyTek

And for 10.5:

Is Leopard Apple's Vista ? - digitalmusings

OS X Leopard – Apple’s Vista? | PCMech

l008com · Dec 14, 2011, 09:11 PM

Back on topic.... this safari reload things is killing me. I'm about one more day away from switching to Chrome. I've always loved safari on mac but these days (i'm on 10.6), I keep tons of stuff open in other spaces so I can work on them when I have time. I have projects all over the place. And every time safari freaks out, I lose all data entered into a form (like this form right now) and all videos start over. I've been submitting lots of feedback complaints to apple about it. That last safari update was supposed to fix the problem, but it absolutely did not do anything.

Also Lion is Apple's Vista

besson3c · Dec 15, 2011, 02:28 AM

Safari seems a little better with the latest update, but I'm also still experiencing some of the problems you've described.

I'm happy using Chrome, I don't really see much downside to using it, although I think I like the tabs below the address bar. Maybe I'll look for an Extension that will accommodate this.

I do also prefer the unified address bar in Chrome, but there is a Safari hack to reproduce this.

l008com · Dec 16, 2011, 05:15 AM

I tried switching to Chrome, but it lasted me all of 5 minutes. What's the point of setting a start page if none of your new tabs or windows will open with it? That browser has some strange behavior that I just don't like. But Safari, poor Safari. Tonight was pretty brutal. After a few hours of working, Safari was basically CONSTANTLY reloading every page. I hope I don't end up using Firefox

mduell · Dec 16, 2011, 03:14 PM

I can't believe people still use Safari.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 16, 2011, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by mduell

I can't believe people still use Safari.

It's time to face reality.

I also *rarely* see this reloading issue.

besson3c · Dec 16, 2011, 05:46 PM

Of those that do though, why cling to using Safari? I'm sure there are little things to annoy about Chrome and Firefox, but these must pale in comparison to the annoyances of Safari for those who have been affected.

cgc · Dec 16, 2011, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Of those that do though, why cling to using Safari? I'm sure there are little things to annoy about Chrome and Firefox, but these must pale in comparison to the annoyances of Safari for those who have been affected.

Who's clinging to Safari? I've tried all the major browsers and have reverted back to Safari because I encounter less problems with other browsers. Firefox's UI feels odd...hard to explain but it seems out of place somewhat, Opera is in the same boat but with the added issue of not supporting 1Password, Chromium is close to perfect but I get odd behavior with SpeedDownload (e.g. sometimes it works then doesn't...never had this with Safari or Firefox), iCab is just weird, and Camino's add-on support is limited.

I think Safari has found a nice balance between speed, stability, support for the add-ons I think a lot of people use, the UI feels right, and is good enough to not warrant a need to change. I want to like Opera as I think they are they most promising but they have to support 1Password before I jump ship to them.

imitchellg5 · Dec 16, 2011, 09:01 PM

I love Safari, but man it hogs the RAM. I've got 8 Gb in my MacBook Pro and if I have Photoshop, Aperture, and Safari open, Safari will be using the most RAM and CPU

OTOH, I've got Chrome open right now with 12 tabs and it's using 60 Mb of RAM and 2.1% CPU. Generally though, Safari seems to do a better job of rendering media-heavy sites then Chrome, but Chrome is my main browser.

TETENAL · Dec 16, 2011, 11:19 PM

Both Safari and Chrome use a split process model. The former has a UI, a renderer and plugin processes, the latter a UI, many renderer and plugin processes. You need to add up all those processes memory usage to compare the two.

besson3c · Dec 16, 2011, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

Both Safari and Chrome use a split process model. The former has a UI, a renderer and plugin processes, the latter a UI, many renderer and plugin processes. You need to add up all those processes memory usage to compare the two.

What would that accomplish?

TETENAL · Dec 17, 2011, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

What would that accomplish?

It would allow you to assess the total memory usage of those browsers and not just of their UI process, which is misleading.

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

It would allow you to assess the total memory usage of those browsers and not just of their UI process, which is misleading.

Which would reveal nothing useful.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 17, 2011, 04:23 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Which would reveal nothing useful.

It would give a little more background to the "man, Safari is such a memory hog" comments, such as the one that TETENAL's comment was specifically tailored in reply to.

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 04:33 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

It would give a little more background to the "man, Safari is such a memory hog" comments, such as the one that TETENAL's comment was specifically tailored in reply to.

I disagree, and I disagree with the assertion that Safari is a memory hog too.

My point is that analyzing memory usage in a modern Unix system is very tricky, the numbers themselves mean very little. About the only time they mean something is when swap space is being used, as you know. We can't really determine anything just by comparing numbers.

Safari's main problem seems to be that it is fairly easy to crash either WebCore or Nitro, and when renderings crash Safari doesn't recover as gracefully as Chrome does. Perhaps when these crashes occur Safari's memory usage spikes, but this a symptom, not the main problem.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 17, 2011, 04:36 PM

So why didn't you comment on imitchell's initial assertion that Safari is a memory hog, or just say that even if you added up the various processes' requirements, it still wouldn't paint an accurate picture?

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

I seem to encounter these crashes very rarely, and when tabs reload (every few days of continuous running), it's usually just one or two.

l008com · Dec 17, 2011, 04:37 PM

I have a better question, why does besson3c troll every single thread on this forum?

Spheric Harlot · Dec 17, 2011, 04:44 PM

Because he actually has an interest in the subject matter?

This isn't one of the (increasingly rare) why-don't-you-use-this-command-line-tool-it's-so-easy-what's-interface-design? thread crashes, you know.

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

So why didn't you comment on imitchell's initial assertion that Safari is a memory hog, or just say that even if you added up the various processes' requirements, it still wouldn't paint an accurate picture?

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

I missed that post. You don't expect me to read all of MacNN, do you?

I seem to encounter these crashes very rarely, and when tabs reload (every few days of continuous running), it's usually just one or two.

How many tabs do you keep open, on average? The problems I have generally occur when I've left a whole bunch of tabs open, including some that remain after I've put the machine to sleep. I know that Safari has this weird bug with pages that have been left open for a long time where Javascript observers no longer work until the page is refreshed, maybe some of this has to do with Safari somehow taking resources away from idle tabs after a while, or something?

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by l008com

I have a better question, why does besson3c troll every single thread on this forum?

Why do you not know what trolling is?

TETENAL · Dec 17, 2011, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by besson3c

Which would reveal nothing useful.

Strawman.

Originally Posted by besson3c

Safari's main problem seems to be that it is fairly easy to crash either WebCore or Nitro, and when renderings crash Safari doesn't recover as gracefully as Chrome does.

This is more graceful to you than simply redisplaying the pages?

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

This isn't one of the (increasingly rare) why-don't-you-use-this-command-line-tool-it's-so-easy-what's-interface-design? thread crashes, you know.

I've learned from these threads that I'm a little weird in this way (and many other ways, but that's a whole other matter).

When I have a problem I like to put all of my options on the table and assess each of them. If the option involves the command line and it seems to be a good fit, I may go with it, and I don't cross the option off the list just because it is command line based. Depending on what I'm doing sometimes I prefer the command line. Other times, I don't see the point in using a GUI to replace a tool that was originally designed for the command line (e.g. Git).

However, my offering this as an option is not necessarily an endorsement, but simply a contribution to that list under the false assumption that others work as I do. I've come to realize that for a great many users CLI options are non-options due to comfort level, lack of ease, etc. Therefore, I've decided that I'll only bring these options up as absolute last resort ideas, but not in the flesh-out-the-list stage.

The thread "crashing" seemed to come about because of this disconnect, but it was never a lack of interest on my part to offer useful suggestions. There are many funny definitions of trolling bandied about on this forum, but my definition, in the context of tech sections of this forum, generally involves people intentionally offering non-useful comments designed to provoke.

Besides, in this case, this is just l008's weird grudge he has with me because I had this weird and radical recommendation that he think about switching his business to a product that wasn't discontinued.

jmiddel · 05:59 PM

Although I agree with cgc that Camino has little add on support, for daily browsing it's self effacing, like a good butler it serves up the pages with no fuss or hiccups. And, cgc, for me re Firefox's UI, there is just a bit too much of it. As for Chrome, I love the speed, but that chrome hurts my eyes. Again, too conspicuos and intrusive.

Oops, got away from the screen for a bit, so not quite on topic

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by TETENAL

This is more graceful to you than simply redisplaying the pages?

If Safari simply redisplayed the page you were on that would be fine, but instead it insists on reloading several other pages you have open, which is not fine.

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by jmiddel

Although I agree with cgc that Camino has little add on support, for daily browsing it's self effacing, like a good butler it serves up the pages with no fuss or hiccups. And, cgc, for me re Firefox's UI, there is just a bit too much of it. As for Chrome, I love the speed, but that chrome hurts my eyes. Again, too conspicuos and intrusive.

I never did understand this "hurts my eyes" business. In a web browser isn't the focus on the actual pages you are visiting? Unless the font rendering or form UI elements are too off-putting, what distinctions would exist? There is all of the stuff that surrounds the webpage: the bookmarks, preferences, etc. but on a day-to-day basis wouldn't your interaction with these pieces be minimal such that actual browsing benefits (performance, stability, compatibility, etc.) would outweigh all else for non-developers?

mduell · Dec 17, 2011, 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

This isn't one of the (increasingly rare) why-don't-you-use-this-command-line-tool-it's-so-easy-what's-interface-design? thread crashes, you know.

Lynx never auto-reloads my webpages...

cgc · Dec 17, 2011, 06:14 PM

I was wondering if anyone would reference Lynx due to mention of the CLI. Touche.

l008com · Dec 17, 2011, 06:27 PM

Do you guys submit feedback to apple every time it happens? Or at least once a day? After a few hours of use, it starts happening constantly and I'm not going to submit feedback every 3 minutes. But a flood of feedback complaints is probably the only/best way to accelerate a fix for this problem.

besson3c · Dec 17, 2011, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by cgc

I was wondering if anyone would reference Lynx due to mention of the CLI. Touche.

Lynx/Links/w3m is actually a very useful tool to simulate accessing a website the way a Google search engine bot would.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 18, 2011, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

I never did understand this "hurts my eyes" business. In a web browser isn't the focus on the actual pages you are visiting? Unless the font rendering or form UI elements are too off-putting, what distinctions would exist? There is all of the stuff that surrounds the webpage: the bookmarks, preferences, etc. but on a day-to-day basis wouldn't your interaction with these pieces be minimal such that actual browsing benefits (performance, stability, compatibility, etc.) would outweigh all else for non-developers?

Well, at least we have the "what's-interface-design?" part here.

In a web browser, the focus SHOULD be on the actual pages you are visiting.

The problem is precisely that it's not when you have "unique" interfaces that work or look completely different from expectations, non-standard keyboard shortcuts, no support for standard system keychain, drag-and-drop that doesn't work, etc. (all issues I've seen at various points with FireFox, for example).

Rather than focussing on the web page and its content, I have to deal with interface bullshit from some moron who doesn't give a **** for my expectations.

Spheric Harlot · Dec 18, 2011, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by besson3c

How many tabs do you keep open, on average? The problems I have generally occur when I've left a whole bunch of tabs open, including some that remain after I've put the machine to sleep. I know that Safari has this weird bug with pages that have been left open for a long time where Javascript observers no longer work until the page is refreshed, maybe some of this has to do with Safari somehow taking resources away from idle tabs after a while, or something?

I have anywhere between 5 and 15 tabs open at any time, usually around 10, and never quit the browser.

I get the reloading thing on the odd individual tab maybe twice a week (?)—not often enough, at any rate, to be substantially annoyed by it (used to be MUCH more frequently with Safari 5.0).

I have 8 GB RAM.

besson3c · Dec 18, 2011, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

Well, at least we have the "what's-interface-design?" part here.

Relax Beavis, I'm not devaluing interface design in general, I'm just questioning whether one should choose good UI over good performance/reliability/stability in this case should one have to choose one or the other.

In a web browser, the focus SHOULD be on the actual pages you are visiting.

The problem is precisely that it's not when you have "unique" interfaces that work or look completely different from expectations, non-standard keyboard shortcuts, no support for standard system keychain, drag-and-drop that doesn't work, etc. (all issues I've seen at various points with FireFox, for example).

Rather than focussing on the web page and its content, I have to deal with interface bullshit from some moron who doesn't give a **** for my expectations.

Having to retype your passwords is mostly just an annoyance, right? Albeit possibly a very big one for some. It's been a while since i came across a Mac browser that used non-standard keyboard shortcuts, although you might have a point about drag-and-drop, I don't do a whole lot of drag and dropping...

However, again, if you had to choose a great UI vs. great performance/stability/reliability, what would you choose?

besson3c · Dec 18, 2011, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot

I have anywhere between 5 and 15 tabs open at any time, usually around 10, and never quit the browser.

I get the reloading thing on the odd individual tab maybe twice a week (?)—not often enough, at any rate, to be substantially annoyed by it (used to be MUCH more frequently with Safari 5.0).

I have 8 GB RAM.

Maybe that's the problem then, cause I often have 30 or more tabs open...