[Kerrigan]

I noticed there weren't any threads on Kosovo here.

Kosovo has been recognized as an independent nation by the US, UK, Germany, and France (among others). Serbia and Russia have been denouncing this move, and such countries as Spain and (I think) Greece are refusing to acknowledge Kosovo's independence on the basis that they have their own separatist movements to worry about.

I support the country's independence, for these reasons stated by the WSJ:

Originally Posted by WSJ

Kosovo differs in no way from the other stand-alone parts of Yugoslavia that won their freedom after 1991, and are now better off for it. Serbian lobbyists portray the Kosovars as Muslim terrorists, but that strains credulity, given their moderate and secular practice of Islam (and Christianity) and their stated commitment to democracy.
The Birth of Kosovo - WSJ.com

[PaperNotes]

It is well known to Serbs that the Albanian Kosovars are crypto-Muslims who do not share any ideas with Islamists. Kosovars eat pork and drink vodka. Islamists came to Kosova in the 90s and were told to **** off. Albanian Kosovars are also distrustful of Albanian nationals. The Serbian lobbyists who say otherwise are deluding no one.

[Monique]

Why not?

If Serbia does not like it, they could become one with Kosovo and now Serbia will be known under the name of Kosovo.

[Doofy]

I disagree with it entirely.

1) It's born out of NATO siding with terrorists and illegally bombing Serbia. Anyone who doesn't think the KLA are terrorist quite frankly hasn't been paying attention.
2) The vast majority of reports about ethnic cleansing were complete BS - the majority of cleansing was done by the KLA against the Serbs.
3) It's muslims doing what they're supposed to do - reclaim land for allah. This is happening all over the World at the edges of the islamic empire.
4) The reason Greece doesn't like it is they know that the intention of the Albanians is to reclaim Greater Albanian, part of which lies in Greece. They're next on the list for unpleasantness.
5) What's to stop this from happening in Birmingham, or Oldham?

Now, If I'm siding with a socialist state (Serbia) in all this, you pretty much know how strongly I feel against the events happening down there.

[OreoCookie]

I think it's necessary, there is no way to avoid it.
And I think it's a good thing for the stabilization of the region (although in the short term, there will be a spike in violence again) as a big Serbia (with Kosovo) will not be stable. Kosovarians have suffered from Serbian oppression especially during the Milosevic regime (and fought back, they have blood on their hands, too).

The only long-term alternative I see is that the Kosovo eventually enters the federalist union of Serbia and Montenegro. But this has to be a step both sides mutually agree upon.

[ghporter]

Doofy, let's not slip into the use of intentionally pejorative terms, OK? Can you edit your post above so that you aren't using "certain slang terms"? Those terms diminish your well presented points.

Considering that it was an empire that amalgamated all the various tribe/states of the region in the first place, and then maybe three others that kept the whole "Yugoslavia" thing stuck together for so long, I think it's high time for the whole region to sort things out for itself/themselves. I'm not sure about Doofy's claim that "most" of the ethnic cleansing was perpetrated against Serbs by the KLA, but the whole region is filled with enough ethnic and frankly tribal rivalries and hatreds that holding it together at all simply for the purpose of "stability" is disingenuous.

And any "Liberation Army" is suspect in my book. I don't know of a single example of one that wasn't really a "kick out the current regime so we can impose our own" army. On the other hand, at least the KLA was somewhat organized and centrally controlled. The death squads that preyed on Kosovars (and others) were just groups of thugs with guns and the tacit approval of higher ups in the government.

[Taliesin]

Kosovo tried repeatedly during the 80s, when its albanian population became overly dominant birthwise compared to the serbs, to become a republic within Yugoslavia, similar to Croatia, but was rejected.

Contrary, Serbia began to pursue the ideology/policy of "Greater Serbia", abolishing the semiautonom status of Kosovo and also causing strive in the other yoguslavian republics where significant serbian minorities lived.

The idea was to create a "Greater Serbia", where all people and religions could live together, but under the ideology and nationality of Serbia, ie. calling the other people, croatians, bosnians and kosovars, to turn into serbs and to forget their own national aspirations and identities.

Since that idea would hardly be accepted voluntarily by the other people, it would have to be enforced militarily...

At the same time some kosovorans aspired to become fully independent and founded the movement KLA to achieve that militarily. After a few shortlived successes of gaining control of some parts of Kosovo they were easily squashed by the serbian army.

Those KLA-leaders that survived decided then to change their tactics, away from a normal army towards a guerillia-concept, based on the IRA-model, using hit and run tactics against serbian military and police to provoke the serbian authority into retaliating against the general kosovo-population, so that the KLA would gain recruits, sympathy and support...

but also and most importantly to cause an international intervention by the NATO.

They had also terroristic tendencies since they also killed civilians, supposed collaborators among the kosovars, and civilians among the serbian minority, with estimates citing up to 2,000 civilians killed by the KLA.

Taliesin

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Doofy, let's not slip into the use of intentionally pejorative terms, OK? Can you edit your post above so that you aren't using "certain slang terms"? Those terms diminish your well presented points.

Done.

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I'm not sure about Doofy's claim that "most" of the ethnic cleansing was perpetrated against Serbs by the KLA

Evidence suggests that the KLA were ethnic cleansing Serbs and killing their own people to make it look like the Serbs had engaged in cleansing (yes, really - but then a large part of muslim culture doesn't mind performing honour killings on their own daughters if they happen to go out with the wrong guy). While there's no doubt that the Serbs did do a bit, it's nowhere near what was reported.

My sources for this were on the ground and not linkable. For example, my keyboardist's brother was on the first KFOR Land Rover into the place after NATO finished bombing.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

I disagree with it entirely.

1) It's born out of NATO siding with terrorists and illegally bombing Serbia. Anyone who doesn't think the KLA are terrorist quite frankly hasn't been paying attention.
2) The vast majority of reports about ethnic cleansing were complete BS - the majority of cleansing was done by the KLA against the Serbs.
3) It's muslims doing what they're supposed to do - reclaim land for allah. This is happening all over the World at the edges of the islamic empire.
4) The reason Greece doesn't like it is they know that the intention of the Albanians is to reclaim Greater Albanian, part of which lies in Greece. They're next on the list for unpleasantness.
5) What's to stop this from happening in Birmingham, or Oldham?
.

You don't know one mother ****ing thing about Kosovars and you just come up with this shit? They are crypto-Muslims. That means they call themselves Muslim yet hardly practise the faith. They were forced to convert by the Ottomans and have never been thoroughly pleased with it. It is safe to say Kosovars are as Muslim as Britain is Christian. In name only, and only sometimes.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

My sources for this were on the ground and not linkable. For example, my keyboardist's brother was on the first KFOR Land Rover into the place after NATO finished bombing.

And nor are they believable, sorry.

[Doofy]

Well, no worries guys. You're entirely free to be wrong.

[Cold Warrior]

I'm just wondering how Russia is going to retaliate.

[zwiebel_]

It was high-time for independence. I always felt sorry for Kosovars, or Shiptars, as the serbs liked to call them. Their struggle started right after Tito's death, and the serb suppression lasted until the NATO stepped in. Good for them.
Now, Sandzak is next (or not).

[MrNo]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

You don't know one mother ****ing thing about Kosovars and you just come up with this shit? They are crypto-Muslims. That means they call themselves Muslim yet hardly practise the faith. They were forced to convert by the Ottomans and have never been thoroughly pleased with it. It is safe to say Kosovars are as Muslim as Britain is Christian. In name only, and only sometimes.

Perhaps you can tell that to someone who has not visited Kosovo. Shiptars are a very closed society, and many of them still live by the tribal laws. If it was not for Josip Broz, they would still live in Albania.

Kosovo's independence is simply a proof of Western hypocrisy.

[macintologist]

I hope Americans don't care about the internal affairs of other nations, such as Kosovo independence, because when they DO care it enables politicians to conduct a foreign policy in which America is the policeman of the world.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by MrNo 

Perhaps you can tell that to someone who has not visited Kosovo. Shiptars are a very closed society, and many of them still live by the tribal laws.
Kosovo's independence is simply a proof of Western hypocrisy.

It's Shqiptar and you pronounce the ****ing Q, Mr Know-It-All.

Kosovar Albanians don't have the closed society you think. You're thinking of Hoxxa's Albania. Kosovars look back with fondness to Tito's secular Yugoslavia that had a lot of openness with countries like Italy, Austria and Germany. There's no trace of Islamism or anything a free, intelligent European couldn't like.

There is no western hypocrisy here Rebel Boy. The Serbs perpetrated murder, genocide, rape and ethnic cleansing. It was called the Balkans War if you never ****ing heard of it and had everything to do with Serbian expansionism and brutal oppression of minorities. Kosova is independent because of the war.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by macintologist 

America is the policeman of the world.

America doesn't want to be the world's policeman. It just wants you and I to be liberated from the kind of despotism and central control of theocrats and communists that make the world unstable. If we all have democracy and freedom to speak then power is transferred to the free economy that is powered and controlled by the actions of the working and middle classes. Free thinkers and consumers who enjoy a happy, progressive lifestyle are the elite.

[MrNo]

Perhaps if you stopped cussing, we could have a conversation, this way ...
Besides you fail to mention how many women were raped, how many Serbs died and, and how many were exiled before the war in Kosovo. By those same peaceful Shiptars. I don't think any one has taken that in consideration. Or at least no one that matters.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

... It just wants you and I to be liberated from the kind of despotism and central control of theocrats and communists that make the world unstable...

If you're talking about the current administration, you may be surprised how off you are. Or was that just sarcasm

[zwiebel_]

MrNo, you have to apply your statement both ways. In any conflict the aggressor also becomes the victim and vice versa.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

There is no western hypocrisy here Rebel Boy.

Want to explain why the KLA were classed as terrorists by the US until two months before NATO started bombing then?

[MrNo]

Originally Posted by zwiebel_ 

MrNo, you have to apply your statement both ways. In any conflict the aggressor also becomes the victim and vice versa.

The Kosovo conflict is a very complicated issue, and this board is probably not a good place for such discussions. There is so much history that one has to read in order to fully grasp the issues.
I can tell you this much. The story that you hear in media, contains very little truth, and that little truth that it is there, has been twisted to suit one party.
As Doofy has mentioned, how does one group of people go from a terrorist organization to a liberation army over night?
From what I can tell, Switzerland could be the next country where Albanians will claim a part of land as their own. Give it 20-30 years.

[zwiebel_]

Media-shmedia.
During the recent Balkan wars you got a consistent theme:
Slovenians vs serbs, Croats vs serbs, Bosniaks vs serbs, Kosovars vs serbs. Do you see a pattern here?
The Croats did a smart thing in 1995 when they swept through Krajina; they avoided the mess that became the puppet serbian "state within a state" in Bosnia. Now that the Kosovars pulled a de-facto "state within a state" on Serbia, well, that is not acceptable. Imagine where the Kosovars would go from there?

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Want to explain why the KLA were classed as terrorists by the US until two months before NATO started bombing then?

Because just like you the US was misinformed. They were not classed as a terrorist organisation once NATO understood the situation. The KLA was absorbed into KFOR to help police Kosova, hardly something a terrorist organisation would be allowed to do. And to equate KLA with Islamism is plain stupid. They did not have any relation to Islamic extremists as they were funded by secular working class Kosovars who sent money home from all over the world.

[PaperNotes]

Originally Posted by MrNo 

Perhaps if you stopped cussing, we could have a conversation, this way ...
Besides you fail to mention how many women were raped, how many Serbs died and, and how many were exiled before the war in Kosovo.

The war that the Serbs started. Nearly all crimes were between Serbs, Croats and Bosnians anyway, the Kosovar Albanians were an ethnic minority under oppression and stayed within their territories. Any hostilities between them and Serbs were confined to that area.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Because just like you the US was misinformed. They were not classed as a terrorist organisation once NATO understood the situation.

Utter tripe. Let's not forget that they were also the main distribution agents for opiates to southern Europe.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

The KLA was absorbed into KFOR to help police Kosova, hardly something a terrorist organisation would be allowed to do.

Rubbish. The US was terrorist friendly until 2001. See IRA funding and arms shipments and how the authorities turned a blind eye. Heck, the UK still can't get suspected republican terrorist extradited from the US.

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

And to equate KLA with Islamism is plain stupid. They did not have any relation to Islamic extremists as they were funded by secular working class Kosovars who sent money home from all over the world.

You seem to be under the impression that the only muslim terrorists on the planet are those related to OBL.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

The war that the Serbs started.

Complete crap. The "war" was started over 800 years ago when the muslims invaded the area.

[Apemanblues]

Does this mean we will have to put up with an accordion based Kosovan Death Metal entry in the next Eurovision Song Contest?

[Taliesin]

Originally Posted by PaperNotes 

Because just like you the US was misinformed. They were not classed as a terrorist organisation once NATO understood the situation. The KLA was absorbed into KFOR to help police Kosova, hardly something a terrorist organisation would be allowed to do. And to equate KLA with Islamism is plain stupid. They did not have any relation to Islamic extremists as they were funded by secular working class Kosovars who sent money home from all over the world.

The KLA started as a normal army, but were squashed by the serbians much better equipped and better trained army. Then the surviving KLA-leaders reorganized the KLA into a guerillia-army, using hit and run tactics against serbian military and police.

The strategic goal was to provoke a harsh retaliation by the serbian army against kosovar civilians, in order to put Serbia in a bad light internationally, until the worldcommunity would decide to intervene.

What helped them was that Serbia was an oppressing regime, a socialistic one, with the goal of achieving "Greater Serbia" forcefully.

The KLA also engaged in ethnic cleansing against the serbian minorities, by abducting and murdering people as well as looting churches and houses of minorities, before and after the war, resulting in about 2,000 killed civilians.

That places them on the same level as the IRA and the PLO.

Yet, the US decided to work together with the KLA, who until then financed itself through drug-deals and money transferred by kosovo-albans. The US started to train them militarily and to use them as a sort of groundforce, while the NATO would conduct the air-operations against Serbia.


The major mistakes that Serbia made are these:

1. They attacked Croatia and espescially Bosnia.
2. They revoked Kososvo's autonomy.
3. They reacted to KLA's provocative attacks against serbian military and policeforce, with indiscriminate massacring of kosovo-alban-civilians, which majorly convinced the kosovo-albans to side with the KLA and caused international outcries.

Kosovo's indepence is the logical conclusion of the strategic mistakes of Serbia.

From what I know the KLA agreed to demilitarise and to merge its members with the KFOR-policeforce.

Taliesin

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Complete crap. The "war" was started over 800 years ago when the muslims invaded the area.

Wow, that was even 250 years earlier than the christian invasion of the American continent!

Are you guys still fighting over there???

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by badidea 

Wow, that was even 250 years earlier than the christian invasion of the American continent!

Are you guys still fighting over there???

What? In the UK? Yes, fighting is our national pastime.

[Doofy]

Oh, and there's the other deciding factor in all this.

The UK government recognises Kosovo's independence. Now, if the UK government told me it was a Friday today I'd have to check my calendar.

[badidea]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

What? In the UK? Yes, fighting is our national pastime.

No, the American continent is not in the UK and "you guys" means more than one single person...which means I didn't mean you personally!