[olli2]

I am before buying iBook 700. A friend offered me this PowerBook Titanium G4/550 MHz 256MB/20GB/DVD for a slightly higher price. What do you think, worth a look, or the iBook is way faster? Thanks.

[olli2]

Is there anybody out to answer this question???

The iBook has:
G3 700 MHz
64k L1 cache, 512 kbyte L2 cache, 0 kbyte L3 cache, no altivec
100 MHz FSB
Max 640 MB 100 MHz SDRam
ATi Radeon 7500 16 MB VRam


The Ti has:
G4 550 MHz
64k L1 cache, 256 kbyte L2 cache, 0 kbyte L3 cache, altivec
100 MHz FSB
Max 1 GB 133 MHz SDRam
ATi Radeon 16 MB DDR VRam

[TomHMeredith]

Depends what you want. Is the screen size going to make any difference to you?

Speed wise, I always though, correct me if I am wrong, that the only difference between G3 and G4 is the adition of Altivec, whihc I know OS X uses, but I don't know how much of a difference having it is.

I have a 500MHz Pismo, which runs OS X fine, in the end it must come down to the screen size, and which you prefer the look of.

[olli2]

Originally posted by TomHMeredith:
Depends what you want. Is the screen size going to make any difference to you?

Speed wise, I always though, correct me if I am wrong, that the only difference between G3 and G4 is the adition of Altivec, whihc I know OS X uses, but I don't know how much of a difference having it is.

I have a 500MHz Pismo, which runs OS X fine, in the end it must come down to the screen size, and which you prefer the look of.

Here there is altivec as difference, but this newer G3 has twice as much L2 cache, too. I don't care much about performance, I want a machine that runs OS X and Office smoothly, but really smoothly. DVD, gaming and such are not important, though. Generally, I will run Office, E-mail, Internet, and Virtual PC (dictionaries) at 90% of time.

How do you like the wider screen and how comfortable it is to use? You told in the USB-BT-integration topic , that you will sell your PB and get the iBook instead.
To my experience, 1024x768 is the minimum for me for comfortable document editing.
Then there is the fact that a wider machines takes more space in my bag and on my table, I don't know how it would be.

[olli2]

Oh, and why is it called pismo?

[jindrich]

hi olli,
i had an icebook 500 wich was great until i tried to run OSX. then i got MAD. (ultra slow, TO ME). period.

for 2 months i've been using an s/h ti550/256/20/combo. This titanium feels at least like a real computer (my icebook500 was a PITA).
i dont know the difference between the icebook 500 and the 700 (but i've been told is BIIIG), or if the ti550 will be slower than the ibook700 (as the latter it's newer). Bear in mind that as a result of cache lacking, the ti550 is the lesser of ALL the Ti's (at least regarding emagic platinum reverbs abilities).
Anyway, those are my impressions so far:

-i though the 12" running at 1024 was ok (it was), but i had to increase the size when i wanted to type seriously. Terminal text was a little too small.. With the ti550 my eyes feel so much more relaxed (the ti550 had the first 1152x768 ,so less dpi). i can read anything without stress now. I dont know if i could go back to the 12" powerbook screen, for instance. Plus the bigger and wider screen is just great for palettes, and for DVD screening! WOW

-the icebook was MUCH more rugged. Some paint in the ti may ripp off and the whole thing is more delicate (the screen may flex a little if you push it), but i hardly care. I treat the ti as i did with the ibook. If you're not King Kong and care a little, it's ok.

-the titanium raises more eyebrows than the icebook (size, screen, weight, material...). go for it you you care for the wow factor.

-oddly enough, battery life on my used ti is better than on my icebook500 used to be.(dd i got my Ti with a new batt? dunno)

-havent tried airport but i'm told titanium receptium is not very good

-the ti is quite hot (specially if you run it while charging). Yet i can watch a dvd laying on bed, with the ti somewhat resting on my knee: i have one leg raised as an inverted "V", and the center bottom of the ti rests on my lifted knee. No problemo; but i guess you cant play quake with the ti on your lap (get a mag underneath)

-my icebook500 was dead silent (fan NEVER turned on). on the ti550, on quake you get an helicopter, on lesser tasks a moderate fan, and sometimes no fan at all.

-something to consider is how you can get apple care for either one. you must have it under some kind of repair insurance for sure.

hope this helps, feel free to ask

greetings from mallorca.

PS: the other day i met an hungarian girl. She was in the island as an au-pair and to learn spanish, and she was very nice. She's back in Budapest now though.

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:
hi olli,
i had an icebook 500 wich was great until i tried to run OSX. then i got MAD. (ultra slow, TO ME). period.

for 2 months i've been using an s/h ti550/256/20/combo. This titanium feels at least like a real computer (my icebook500 was a PITA).
i dont know the difference between the icebook 500 and the 700 (but i've been told is BIIIG), or if the ti550 will be slower than the ibook700 (as the latter it's newer). Bear in mind that as a result of cache lacking, the ti550 is the lesser of ALL the Ti's (at least regarding emagic platinum reverbs abilities).
Anyway, those are my impressions so far:

-i though the 12" running at 1024 was ok (it was), but i had to increase the size when i wanted to type seriously. Terminal text was a little too small.. With the ti550 my eyes feel so much more relaxed (the ti550 had the first 1152x768 ,so less dpi). i can read anything without stress now. I dont know if i could go back to the 12" powerbook screen, for instance. Plus the bigger and wider screen is just great for palettes, and for DVD screening! WOW

-the icebook was MUCH more rugged. Some paint in the ti may ripp off and the whole thing is more delicate (the screen may flex a little if you push it), but i hardly care. I treat the ti as i did with the ibook. If you're not King Kong and care a little, it's ok.

-the titanium raises more eyebrows than the icebook (size, screen, weight, material...). go for it you you care for the wow factor.

-oddly enough, battery life on my used ti is better than on my icebook500 used to be.(dd i got my Ti with a new batt? dunno)

-havent tried airport but i'm told titanium receptium is not very good

-the ti is quite hot (specially if you run it while charging). Yet i can watch a dvd laying on bed, with the ti somewhat resting on my knee: i have one leg raised as an inverted "V", and the center bottom of the ti rests on my lifted knee. No problemo; but i guess you cant play quake with the ti on your lap (get a mag underneath)

-my icebook500 was dead silent (fan NEVER turned on). on the ti550, on quake you get an helicopter, on lesser tasks a moderate fan, and sometimes no fan at all.

-something to consider is how you can get apple care for either one. you must have it under some kind of repair insurance for sure.

hope this helps, feel free to ask

greetings from mallorca.

PS: the other day i met an hungarian girl. She was in the island as an au-pair and to learn spanish, and she was very nice. She's back in Budapest now though.

Oh, many thanks. This was really the info I was looking for.

What I like in buying a new iBook 700 is the fact it is new, and there is 1 year warranty, and to my knowledge OS X runs comfortably with it. It would fit better in my bag and occupies less space on my table when working.

What I like in buying a second hand Ti is the fact it has a wider screen and maybe a combo drive for nearly the same price. There is PCMCIA for my digital camera and PDA, infrared for my phone, the RAM is already included. However, there's no warranty on this.

High wow factor is not good. I prefer being the gray man in the room working without turning heads and attracting attention.

If you say the Ti 15" is good for the eyes, probably I will go for it, I read and write too much on my computers...

[olli2]

Maybe I can try to reduce the noise of the FAN with diodes... little hack... afterwards, it will go off more often, for more longer, but will be quieter after all.

[olli2]

This Ti machine has been used for over a year, how lond will it run without problems? This is a major concern about it, as a new iBook is really new, and probably will run for longer without problems. What do you think is the usual life cycle of an apple laptop?

[crouchingtiger]

if you are being offered a Ti/550 for only a little bit more than the $999 700 iBook, I would get the TiBook and sell it for $150-$300 instant profit.

I would then go ahead and get the iBook 800/Combo.

[jindrich]

hi again olli2, i'll try to answer all your questions.

The size and ruggedness of the ibook is just awesome. It's so small you forget it's a computer, you carry it EVERYWHERE without noticing, and it's quite tough, you treat it like a small book. And as you can have it to sleep instead of turning it off, as long as there is battery left it will be ready to work in 1 second. Just like when you open a book and it's ready to be read instantly. This is by far the most inncredible thing i experienced with my icebook500

regarding text size, i dont know. If you can, go to an apple dealer and experience yourself. The first Tis got less pixels than the current ones on the same 15" so dpi got increased, but not to the 105 dpi or so the 12" ibook and new alubook have. Just judge by yourself.

DONT ever get a laptop with just a cd. you'll regret it if you dont have either a CDRW, or better yet a COMBO. No HD will never be enough, and you cant share files.

as i said you should get some kind of warranty (and i'd take it for more than 1 year). If anything breaks it will cost you more than a 3 years warranty.

apple laptops are MUCH better build than pc laptops and they last longer. Unfortunately they're more expensive (at least in europe) compared feature by feature.
Life of a laptop is the one you wnat ot give it. Sooner or later it will be slow for what you what to do (except for writing)

i wouldnt hack the internals of a laptop. too many risks to blow it

DONT EVER try to run a mac with 128MB. 256MB may not be enough. i think you START to be comfortable in osx with 384 (if you avoid pageouts the computer will be 800% faster)

it's a tough decision yours. Probably the best would be to get a new 800combo with 3 year warranty (better yet the new 12" powerbook, but that will be a lot of money in your country, as the hungarian girl told me about the salaries there).


Just check if text size on the 12" is ok with you.

how's whether in budapest? this morning it's been SNOWING for 15 min IN MALLORCA

[olli2]

Originally posted by crouchingtiger:
if you are being offered a Ti/550 for only a little bit more than the $999 700 iBook, I would get the TiBook and sell it for $150-$300 instant profit.

I would then go ahead and get the iBook 800/Combo.

The problem is that the prices are higher outside the US. Hungarian prices:
TiBook 550/512/DVDrom 1 year: 1500 USD
iBook 700/128/cdrom new : 1520 USD
iBook 800/128/combo new : 1980 USD

400 USD is a huge difference for me, I just cannot afford it now. I tried to organize to buy an iBook in the US and have someone to carry it over, but unfortunately, the only friend I found willing to bring it comes next summer.

So the iBook and the TiBook 550 are realy of the same price here.

So, here's the bilan. In the 550 I would get (compared to new iBook 700):

+ 13% wider screen in pixels (128 pixels extra)
+ altivec
+ PCMCIA
+ Infra
+ DVD-ROM
+ Max Ram is 1 GB
+ FSB 133 MHz
+ executive look
+ more fragile design
(+ 8x CD-RW without BurnProof,if combo)

- 27% MHz in CPU (-150 MHz)
- 50% L2 cache (only 252 k)
- Radeon only (instead of Radeon 7500)
- 1 year used vs. new
- no warranty
- 28% heavier (by 0.5 kg)

= 20 GB HDD
= 5h battery life
= 16 MB Vram
= spanning (with hack for iBook)
= CD-Rom
= 100 MHz SDRam

What do you think about it? What is important from this list, and what is not?

[jindrich]

hi olli2,

why dont you try to explain what do you want the 'book for?

-reason to be a laptop instead a desktop
-reason to be mac instead wintel
-are you surrounded by pcs? dont expect VPC to be workable except for very simple things (and you must have lotsa ram)
-main apps you'd use on the 'book
-when will you by another computer (time frame to update)
..etc,

cheers,
me.

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:
hi olli2,

why dont you try to explain what do you want the 'book for?
-reason to be a laptop instead a desktop
-reason to be mac instead wintel
-are you surrounded by pcs? dont expect VPC to be workable except for very simple things (and you must have lotsa ram)
-main apps you'd use on the 'book
-when will you by another computer (time frame to update)
..etc,

cheers,
me.

Uff, yes, I should have answered these for me before...

-reason to be a laptop instead a desktop
I don't have a fix table for my own, neither in our flat, neither at the Uni. I can work only 'somewhere'. Our flat is rather small, and all place counts, my desktop is just a huge space occupier. If not in use, I put my laptop in a drawer to hide.
What is more, I have found it easier to work with a laptop opened up on the table, similarly to my books, dictionaries,papers and other material I work with.
Then, I want LCD screen to protect my eyes, finally, the battery also servers as an UPS (uninterruptible power supply).
Currently I work on a Compaq Armada M300 subnotebook, it is PIII 600 with 320 MB ram, 12" screen at 1024x768, short 1.5 hours battery life, and a lightwieght 1.5 kg.

-reason to be mac instead wintel
Then, instant-on takes 10-15 secs on my Compaq, what is slow and annoying. The Mac swithes on instantly.
Battery life is also 5 hours. When I used a Psion Series 7, it had 4 hours of battery life, and it was enough for a days work for me.
So Mac instead of wintel mainly because of these two hardware features.

Then, I have got to know about the software side some advantages for me. First, easy installation and uninstallation of programs. I have spent a lot of time installing and reinstalling windows. About 5-6 complete days each year, sitting in front my PC installing windows. This is because the fact I try out new programs. I am not that man who installs all junk from the PC Mag CD-rom, but there are often new progs out that are supposed to increase my productivity. Like a new dictionary, some tools to help making translation, etc. After some install, windows becomes very unstable. Also, I tend to get viruses again and again, despite careful e-mail reading/filtering and rigorous antivirus usage. DriveImage and Norton Ghost help a bit, but somehow my saved hard drive images become outdated, as I want to get rid of some programs over time, or my hardware changes there are unwanted old drivers in my previous image.
I have also read that MS Office X is way cooler on the Mac than on the PC. I spend most of my time writing documents in Word, and making figures, calculations in Excel, as part of my research work. I have read the article "The Zen of Palm" (by Trevor Caswell, December 2002, at http://www.foxpop.ndirect.co.uk/Palm/zen_01.htm), and I have the impression that the conclusion of the article is valid for the Mac/PC comparision.

I also thought, that the life cycle of Mac machines is longer, so my very hard earned not valuable Hungarian currency will be protected a bit better. However, I see that now Macs become easily outdated, too.

-are you surrounded by pcs? dont expect VPC to be workable except for very simple things (and you must have lotsa ram)
I will be the only one at work, at home, and nearly everywhere to use a Mac. There are PC laptops and desktops in my family, at my working place there are PC desktops and Unix servers.
I will need to run VPC Hungarian dictionary and database programs, that are not ported to the Mac at all. There is a nice number of them, unfortunately.
It is not a problem to have PCs around, my only concern is document compatibility, but with Office X, I hope there won't be any issues.

-main apps you'd use on the 'book
1. E-mail.
2. Surfing Internet.
3. Calendar (has to be synced with my PDA and/or mobile).
4. Address book (has to be synced with my PDA and/or mobile).
5. Office (has to be synced with my PDA).
6. Dictionaries in VPC
7. Dreamweaver
8. DocumentsToGo (for my future Sony Cli� NZ90)
I don't know yet if I will use my future Mac for photo or video editing. On my PC, I don't like to do it that much. I can do photo editing/cataloging, but not video. I don't know if I will watch DVD movies on my laptop, I have never done that. I have downloaded a couple of DivX movies with my PC, but I did not like the quality, and my hardware was not really supporting for smooth playback. I met some people on the forums, who told me they started to do media editing, light DTP etc. with their new Mac.
I liked to play NBA Live 2003 and some car simulators on my PC, but I see I have to abandon this on my Mac.
I play to install and try all the differenet versions of Windows in VPC, clean them up to have a bare minimum Windows environment (no network, no glitches, etc.). In this forum, people reported different results, one has XP fast, the other has w2k fast, others say w95 is fast and XP is slow, etc.

-when will you by another computer (time frame to update)
I plan to update only when my hardware will be so obsolete that it does not allow me to run my favourite applications. I hope it will last for as long as possible. I had been upgrading my PC quite often, and I have to say, I really have enough of it. Upgrading means trouble, loss of data, incompatibility issues, lot of time waste, etc. It never worked smoothly for me. This is one side. On the other hand, my monthly income is in the range of 350 USD per month as a PhD student. It is very hard to economize money for investment. I have lost a lot of money with computers, and I cannot allow me the luxury to buy a machine now for 2000 USD, use it for a year, sell it for 1000 USD, and buy a new machine for 2000 USD. Then I have spent 1000 USD per year for using a laptop. I just cannot afford that.

When we bought our Philips TV 10 years ago, it was state of the art, would be the level of 600 USD expense today. And we are very happy with our phurcase, we have no idea of replacing it. However, I have bought my first PC 5 years ago, a full PI computer. Then, 1 years later, we needed a seperate computer for my sister, so I had to buy a PII Celeron, again full computer, and passed on the PI to my sister. 2 years ago our noname PI started to get amortized, hard drive stopped, full data loss. Then we bought a PIII600 full desktop machine again. About a year ago I switched for this PIII600 laptop, because I grow up, and started to move away from home. My desktop linked me to my parents flat, so this was one step to move away from home. Now, my sister waned to move, too, so she bought my Compaq from me for a very low inside-the-family price.

So, in 5 years, we have spent nearly 10.000 USD for computers. It was somehow a must to have computers, for work, for studies, etc. but I cannot say they have generated 10.000 USD income. Indirectly, assuring better working conditions, maybe, but I cannot say that I have produced twice as much values on the new machines, and hence got twice as much money. It was rather "we were not looser in the run" case.

Now I say, my computer has to fulfill at 100% my working requirements, and I may spend some little extra for the fun. As a configuration, I would be the happiest with a PB 12" combo, smooth OS X, smooth Office, some Altivec juice if Photo editing. But in Hungary it costs 2500 USD, and VPC is still strugling on it. All my family would say that I would be crazy to buy that, it would never pay back, and they would be right. So, I look at the 1500 USD iBook 700 CD-Rom, and I think it would deal with my working needs. To my research on the net, discussions in forums, it will run OS X smoothly now, but it is the bare minimum reasonable configuration as a new Apple machine.

I would be really happy if you could comment on my ideas, and tell, how would you decide in my place, which machine would you use.

--

Edit:
During summer, I will travel to the US for research, and will have a good occasion to buy a new Mac Laptop for a very good price. However, I cannot wait any longer, I need a Laptop now.

[jindrich]

mmm. long post. let me digest this.

by now take a look a this very deep performance comparison table:

macspeedzone

seeya

[TomHMeredith]

Hi oli2, sorry it has taken me a while to get round to replying....

I got my 12.1 inch iBook yesterday, and the screen size is fine (have played around with a friends and used it in the shop a bit). I prefer the fact that it is smaller, easily goes in my bag when I go to lectures, although I could see myself loosing the bag and just carrying it in the summer.

The PowerBook G3 was referred to as 'Pismo' because this was the codename given to it by Apple, kinda like 'Jaguar' refers to 10.2 etc.

(BTW: anyone know if there was a codename for the dual USB iBooks?)

Tom.

[olli2]

I summed on paper your comments, and it was nice to see all opinons at the same sight.

Thanks for the speed test link. It explains a lot. First, I see there is an important performance difference if clock speed is increased by 100 MHz. So iBook 800 rules over iBook 700.

Then, G3 700, G3 800, G4 550 were all the time in the lagging department of the tests. But it is not indicated, what is the lowest level of acceptance for comfortable use. So, in terms of performance, probably I would get the same in both laptops.

You say I shouldn't live without a combo drive. Then the iBook 700 is out with 1700 USD.
At the same price level, for 1700 USD, I only have the TiBook 550 512MB Combo on offer, 1 year old.
iBook 800 combo + Ram is the next level in price for me, 2100 USD here.

I also had a telephone conversation with a DTP man today, he is selling a TiBook 667MHz, 768 MB, 16 MB VRam, Radeon, external CD-RW, for 2100 USD. His machine is not worth looking at for me, but I called him up just for talk. He is changing for the PB 12". He says the larger screen has nothing on offer for him in his DTP work. When needs to see more, he will zoom anyway. But his biggest annoyance was the distance around the keyboard. He said that using a mouse is not really comfortable because of this. He says the 12" sized machine is more ergonomic. Who knows. In the end, he suggested me to get an iBook 800. But I have to wait more for that to save more money, maybe 2-3 month extra. Anyway, he was very disappointed, as he got his laptop a year ago for 4200 USD, now worth 2100, and even the low-end iBook can deal with its performance.

I wish I had a bit more, would be much easier, going for the better one, point. But this is hard earned cash for me... and I am looking on Apple laptops since last November. Then, I had not much choice. Since then, prices dropped a little bit, and my money have raised a bit.

Anyway, I will definetly go for a Mac. The community is so much better. Since looking for the Mac, I have contacted so many helpful people, never experienced before. Also the Hungarian Mac community is so helpful. This man was not the first one I talked to wanting to sell an Apple and entering in a encouraging discussion.

Then my questions can be simplified to these two:
- what offers a more comfortable use (what will result in using my machine more often, the larger screen for my eyes, or the smaller size for portability)
- will the increase to a next price level offer me a reasonable decrease in risks (faulty machine and/or devaluation)

So, I have 1700 USD now. I can get a second hand PB Ti for this price.
Will it be comfortable to use? How high is the risk of getting it?
If it's not comfortable, or the risk is high, I have no choice and have to go for the iBook 800, and save funds for a little more time.

[scottiB]

Originally posted by olli2:
So the iBook and the TiBook 550 are really of the same price here.

So, here's the bilan. In the 550 I would get (compared to new iBook 700):

+ 13% wider screen in pixels (128 pixels extra)
+ altivec
+ PCMCIA
+ Infra
+ DVD-ROM
+ Max Ram is 1 GB
+ FSB 133 MHz
+ executive look
+ more fragile design
(+ 8x CD-RW without BurnProof,if combo)

- 27% MHz in CPU (-150 MHz)
- 50% L2 cache (only 252 k)
- Radeon only (instead of Radeon 7500)
- 1 year used vs. new
- no warranty
- 28% heavier (by 0.5 kg)

= 20 GB HDD
= 5h battery life
= 16 MB Vram
= spanning (with hack for iBook)
= CD-Rom
= 100 MHz SDRam

What do you think about it? What is important from this list, and what is not?

I'm sorry, I quickly scanned this thread but your specs caught me attention. Some of your specs are a bit off: The TiBook 550 has a 100mhz FSB, and a 16MB Radeon card-not 7500.

Honestly, I'd go for the iBook. I have one (12.1/700/Combo) and love it. Good luck, and let us know how you do.

[olli2]

Originally posted by scottiB:
I'm sorry, I quickly scanned this thread but your specs caught me attention. Some of your specs are a bit off: The TiBook 550 has a 100mhz FSB, and a 16MB Radeon card-not 7500.

Honestly, I'd go for the iBook. I have one (12.1/700/Combo) and love it. Good luck, and let us know how you do.

FSB is 133, SDRam speed is 100 MHz. It is two different thing. And I have marked it has only Radeon and not the Radeon 7500.

In terms of speed, after checking the macspeedzone tests, it is clear that the iBook 700 is equal or sginificantly faster in all apsects. Except targeted Altivec specific algorithms, where the Ti550 is 3 times faster.

It nice to know, that iBook 700 owners are happy with their machine. Did you miss anytime the cd-rw/DVD drive?

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:

how's whether in budapest? this morning it's been SNOWING for 15 min IN MALLORCA

It is plain winter, man, some snow, lot of wind, lot of cold!!! I love summer and heat!

[olli2]

It was an easy decision after I used a bit these two machines next two each other. The TiBook 15" screen is much easier to read and to look at. The iBook screen is very "dense", at the same 1024x768 resolution, it is physically smaller in height and in width, too. I could not try, but I think the newer 15" TiBooks have the same "dense" screens at the higher resolution of 1280x854.

The TiBook footprint is much bigger, and offers less comfort for portability. The iBook is really like a "book" to carry.

An other important difference, that the screen of the TiBook waves/shakes easily when I put it on my lap, while the iBook screen stays at the same position.

Well, I prefer the TiBook screen, not because it is larger, but because it is easier to look at.

[jindrich]

sorry for not answering, i had a lot of work and then got offline for a while.

Originally posted by olli2:
It was an easy decision after I used a bit these two machines next two each other. The TiBook 15" screen is much easier to read and to look at. The iBook screen is very "dense", at the same 1024x768 resolution, it is physically smaller in height and in width, too. I could not try, but I think the newer 15" TiBooks have the same "dense" screens at the higher resolution of 1280x854.

The TiBook footprint is much bigger, and offers less comfort for portability. The iBook is really like a "book" to carry.

An other important difference, that the screen of the TiBook waves/shakes easily when I put it on my lap, while the iBook screen stays at the same position.

Well, I prefer the TiBook screen, not because it is larger, but because it is easier to look at.

that is more or less what i first told you. and that you better experience for yourself about the ergonomically (?) of both computers, and which one would you prefer most for it's size/form/screen.

I'm quite pleased with the performance of the ti550 (well except regarding audio software), while the ibook500 (bus 66mhz, 500g3) was annoyinly slow to me. I havent used a 700 or 800 ibook so i couldnt say anything, but looks like people "downgrading" from ti500-667 to ibook800 feel perfectly happy. Except for altivec (imovie, cd-mp3 ripping or heavy photoshop load kinda apps where thre's a difference) the newer ibooks run quite nice.
For the apps you require any machine will do it

the new titanium have more pixels now, but its dpi is still lower than on the ibooks/12"alubook. i cant remember the numbers but they were something like 105dpi for the 12", 100dpi for the new 15" Tis and 90dpi for the first wave of 15" Tis.

if you really need to carry the 'book everywhere, everytime, don't get the Ti (ibook is like a brick in comparison). Also, dont forget if you buy a new mac you'll have 1 year warranty that you can extend to 3. For a laptop i think this is critical. If you're interested on the used ti550, find out if it has applecare, or if it can still be extended for the 3 years (only if it was done within the 1st year of purchase tough)

if you're going to USA in summer maybe you can buy whichever now and then get a new or s/h 'book -only if they still have applecare applicable, IMHO- in the States.

anyway, best luck with your choice.

PS: oh, and dont EVER run with 128RAM, or you'll get MAAAD!. 256-384MB Minimum, even just for only Safari (web browser). Consider this on your future purchase

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:
sorry for not answering, i had a lot of work and then got offline for a while.

that is more or less what i first told you. and that you better experience for yourself about the ergonomically (?) of both computers, and which one would you prefer most for it's size/form/screen.

I'm quite pleased with the performance of the ti550 (well except regarding audio software), while the ibook500 (bus 66mhz, 500g3) was annoyinly slow to me. I havent used a 700 or 800 ibook so i couldnt say anything, but looks like people "downgrading" from ti500-667 to ibook800 feel perfectly happy. Except for altivec (imovie, cd-mp3 ripping or heavy photoshop load kinda apps where thre's a difference) the newer ibooks run quite nice.
For the apps you require any machine will do it

the new titanium have more pixels now, but its dpi is still lower than on the ibooks/12"alubook. i cant remember the numbers but they were something like 105dpi for the 12", 100dpi for the new 15" Tis and 90dpi for the first wave of 15" Tis.

if you really need to carry the 'book everywhere, everytime, don't get the Ti (ibook is like a brick in comparison). Also, dont forget if you buy a new mac you'll have 1 year warranty that you can extend to 3. For a laptop i think this is critical. If you're interested on the used ti550, find out if it has applecare, or if it can still be extended for the 3 years (only if it was done within the 1st year of purchase tough)

if you're going to USA in summer maybe you can buy whichever now and then get a new or s/h 'book -only if they still have applecare applicable, IMHO- in the States.

anyway, best luck with your choice.

PS: oh, and dont EVER run with 128RAM, or you'll get MAAAD!. 256-384MB Minimum, even just for only Safari (web browser). Consider this on your future purchase

Many-many thanks, these were really wise ideas for my decision. I'll check the 3 year applecare warranty. But how will I integrate Bluetooth inside then? ;-) This is one thing I wanted to do. The warranty is more important for me as the batteries like to die (I was told about 300-700 cycles for a Li-ion or Li-polymer battery). Apple batteries are still in the payable range, though, like IBM's. However, Compaq and Acer charges a huge amount for extra and replacement batteries, like twice as much.

Ram - understood. Will top up to 384 at least! In fact, I made an Excel sheet, and Hungarian Keyboard, Extra Ram were also included for the new machines, and I only looked at such used ones recently. AppleCare is quite rare in Hungary, people try to get everything cheaper and cheaper, when you have to nearly sqeeze the money out from yourself (exactly my case). However, it is not that expensive, I don't understand people why don't get a machine with AppleCare.

I will carry my laptop everywhere with me, it will be part of my backpack basically. This is for the iBook. Larger screen, widely placed pixels for my eyes. Well, not easy, but now I tend to focus on my eyes, and get the Ti for that reason. I'll check it again.

For performance, I have checked a lot of Dual and anything to low-end Mac configs yesterday. I have to say, all of them were quite far away from snappy, for everythey use, they looked like pretty much the same. And a lot behind my current PC. Maybe this all-the-bells-and-whistles graphic makes it slower, or what. What surprised me, that Classic needs about 30 secs to launch - this is awful for older programs' compatibility. In windows I can use any backward stuff without delay. I will have to use Classic apps too (mostly dictionaries), because they will never ever be ported on X (small Hungarian market or what).

[jindrich]

Originally posted by olli2:
For performance, I have checked a lot of Dual and anything to low-end Mac configs yesterday. I have to say, all of them were quite far away from snappy, for everythey use, they looked like pretty much the same. And a lot behind my current PC. Maybe this all-the-bells-and-whistles graphic makes it slower, or what. What surprised me, that Classic needs about 30 secs to launch - this is awful for older programs' compatibility. In windows I can use any backward stuff without delay. I will have to use Classic apps too (mostly dictionaries), because they will never ever be ported on X (small Hungarian market or what).

Well, that's been the sad truth for a while in macland. OSX brought an incredible, nice, and very stable UNIX OS to macs, but to a cost.

Jaguar is getting better and better (and faster) in every new release, but still it's not quite on a par with what os9 speed was. I dont know if is for the aqua candy. Anyway, every macuser is able to trade the lack of speed for the great stability and the other hundred features of (UNIX) OSX.

Classic takes so long to launch because it has to load the full OS. Check first compatibility with your old soft though (it's almost 100%, well, except for audio apps. none run)

In comparison to wintel, is true that macs are right now behind speedwise. But there're some caveats with windows too. I havent seen yet XP running fast on desktops or, specially, on laptops. The 1+ second lag of the "start" window is SOO annoying (this on an HP 2ghz P4 laptop). At work i use an IBM PIII800 running pre-installed w98SE, and that machine is faster (surpringsinly it's ultra-stable too) than all of the P4 running XP i've tried so far (nothing beyond 2ghz though)

to summ it all, consider is just computers, and no matter what, next year you'll want the latest one. Dont spend too much.
Applecare is worth the money for the laptops, if only for the peace of mind.

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:
Well, that's been the sad truth for a while in macland. OSX brought an incredible, nice, and very stable UNIX OS to macs, but to a cost.

Jaguar is getting better and better (and faster) in every new release, but still it's not quite on a par with what os9 speed was. I dont know if is for the aqua candy. Anyway, every macuser is able to trade the lack of speed for the great stability and the other hundred features of (UNIX) OSX.

Classic takes so long to launch because it has to load the full OS. Check first compatibility with your old soft though (it's almost 100%, well, except for audio apps. none run)

In comparison to wintel, is true that macs are right now behind speedwise. But there're some caveats with windows too. I havent seen yet XP running fast on desktops or, specially, on laptops. The 1+ second lag of the "start" window is SOO annoying (this on an HP 2ghz P4 laptop). At work i use an IBM PIII800 running pre-installed w98SE, and that machine is faster (surpringsinly it's ultra-stable too) than all of the P4 running XP i've tried so far (nothing beyond 2ghz though)

to summ it all, consider is just computers, and no matter what, next year you'll want the latest one. Dont spend too much.
Applecare is worth the money for the laptops, if only for the peace of mind.

Financially it won't go, it has to go at least for two years. Well, it depends on me, and I hope all my usage will be comfortable with the laptop I can afford now.
That's what I asked from everybody, that no one could answer, when OS X will be comfortably faster, say the speed of OS 9. With a 2 GHZ CPU, with the introduction of a new architecture, or just its code needs refining? But there was no one to know about a critical update that would greatly increase speed in the near future.

[jindrich]

just 2 short comments:

-when i said "next year you'll want the latest one" i meant *desire*, not that you , me, or everybody can afford it (or it makes sense). Hey, if it wasn't for the money i'd change my computers EVERYTIME a newer one ships.

-about applecare: i think you need it. if you buy new, you already have it for 1 year. you can optionally extend to another 2 (total 3 years) paying an additional amount within the fisrt year of purchase. The best thing to do is to buy applecare a week before the 1st year period expires (just because you dont know if you eventually are going to sell it to buy antoher one, or whatever).
but you cannot buy/extend applecare for a mac that it's more than 1 year old (like a s/h used out of the 1 year warranty).

on the other hand i believe since 2003 (NOW) within EU it was said to be mandatory for every kind of things to have 2 year warranty instead of 1 (i dont know if this *applies* to apple),

best.

[olli2]

Originally posted by jindrich:
just 2 short comments:

-when i said "next year you'll want the latest one" i meant *desire*, not that you , me, or everybody can afford it (or it makes sense). Hey, if it wasn't for the money i'd change my computers EVERYTIME a newer one ships.

-about applecare: i think you need it. if you buy new, you already have it for 1 year. you can optionally extend to another 2 (total 3 years) paying an additional amount within the fisrt year of purchase. The best thing to do is to buy applecare a week before the 1st year period expires (just because you dont know if you eventually are going to sell it to buy antoher one, or whatever).
but you cannot buy/extend applecare for a mac that it's more than 1 year old (like a s/h used out of the 1 year warranty).

on the other hand i believe since 2003 (NOW) within EU it was said to be mandatory for every kind of things to have 2 year warranty instead of 1 (i dont know if this *applies* to apple),

best.

The original machine has gone. Now I got an other offer, it has 6 month applecare to go, excellent. Probably I will extend then the applecare by the end of the year, as you suggested.

Yes, desire, not money... probably this machine will be good enough in terms of CPU power and performance for a long time. Maybe I will think about changing it if Apple shows something basement change in laptops, like 3 times more battery time, really snappy OS X, or something like foldable screen, etc.

[olli2]

I finished up getting a used iBook 600 384 MB (May 2002) ATi Radeon 16 MB CD-Rom, with 7 months of warranty. It was 930 USD, this was the main reason to get it... and there was not much choice, our second hand market is a really empty one. After the first day, I am quite happy with it.

[radarbob]

Background: Apple computer user since 1981, Macintosh user since 1989. Currently own Mac PowerPC 6100/60 (circa 1994), original iBook (blueberry) (circa 1999) and 700MHz iBook (circa 2002). The "Mk1" iBook is mine, the 700MHz model my wife's.

Is my iBook obsolete? From a technology perspective, yes in some ways. In a practical way, absolutely not.

It's really a matter of when you decide it's obsolete; when your expectations change. I can do everything today on my bb iBook that I could over 3 years ago. I'm getting along just fine with a 3GB drive, 288MB RAM, and 300MHz. I fully expect to keep mine at least two more years. I DO NOT feel the urge to be using my wife's iceBook.

Yes the iceBook is faster, and my son's Alienware PC really blows the doors off my iBook. So what. These computers raise the bar for whats possible, but in no way diminishes my iBook.

From having kept computers a very long time - I still have a Duo laptop, 25MHz, 10MB drive, B&W screen - I can say there is a point where technology both hardware and software will totally isolate your machine...

But IMHO those effects don't become really annoying for about 4 years. For example my iBook is at the point where it *needs* a larger hard drive. If I want to run Jaguar, I'd want more memory but I don't know if I can use a 512MB memory module at all.

Also, I think the Mac has a longer useful life than a PC - just my casual observation. This may be because the Macintosh in 1984 was, as time proved, at least a decade ahead of PCs in OS interface, networking, and hardware (standardized sound, video, fast I/O).


As an example of the above, my original iBook came with OS 8.6. Now I'm running OS 9.2. I am running OS X ready apps: BBEdit, Eudora, Code Warrior. I could run OS X, and some folks with the same iBook model are! By contrast if you suggested running Win2K on a machine that originally came with Win95 everyone would think you're nuts. There are also many more app/OS compatability issues on the PC.

[kdixey]

There always seems to be a rush to upgrade whenever a new machine pokes it's head out (and I'm certainly not immune to the desire) but whenever I step back and look at weather or not I actually NEED a new machine the answer is no. The ibook allows me to get my e-mail, surf the internet and get my writing done.

My ibook has held up quite well considering it's age and obsolesence. It runs Jaguar just fine. It runs most modern software (although apps that require greater than 800x600 resolution are a problem, but there are always alternatives). I have an airport card (and get get terrific reception), have USB and Firewire, can digitize from my DV cam into iMovie and can watch DVDs. Not bad for an old technologically inferior machine.

[wibo]

kdixie-- have you done my video with your ibook? i'm wondering what the user experience is really like.

i want to be able to do some basic home video, to burn to CD/DVD to send to my folks back home. apart from that though, my computing need is quite minimal (browsing, email, ms office). hence I am tossing up between an ibook, with some external peripherals like extra f/w HDD, or splashing out the extra and getting a TiBook.

honestly, the only reason to get a TiBook for me would be extra speed (and I'm only interested in real, tangible, noticeable speed differences-- not looking at specs/numbers) and the extra screen real estate. from what I've read, the ibook appears actually to be a better quality/more rugged/better constructed.

[olli2]

Originally posted by wibo:
kdixie-- have you done my video with your ibook? i'm wondering what the user experience is really like.

i want to be able to do some basic home video, to burn to CD/DVD to send to my folks back home. apart from that though, my computing need is quite minimal (browsing, email, ms office). hence I am tossing up between an ibook, with some external peripherals like extra f/w HDD, or splashing out the extra and getting a TiBook.

honestly, the only reason to get a TiBook for me would be extra speed (and I'm only interested in real, tangible, noticeable speed differences-- not looking at specs/numbers) and the extra screen real estate. from what I've read, the ibook appears actually to be a better quality/more rugged/better constructed.

I agree, this iBook 600 is much better in price/performance, and very rugged. The screen is small, the Ti550 screen was much better to look at.


I am happy with it for the moment except a few things:

- lack of PCMCIA (the USB flashkey-s are nice, but when you transfer 128 MB of data, it is SLOW, then, I need the extra cable to connect to my Camera, and an extra cable for my PDA)

- no CD-RW, no DVD-Rom here. The DVD-Rom would be nice to listen to my mp3s. My collection would fit on 3-4 of DVD disks, that I could have burned with some friend. The 20 GB drive is nice to have all the programs I need, but small for your picture and mp3 collection. The CD-RW would be nice to back up important data. I might get a Wiebietech firewire adapter to be able to use cheap external devices.

[kdixey]

Been working on my term paper, so I've been trying to stay out of the forums (must stay focused).

Anyway, about video on my ibook 466. Well, I don't do it all that often but when I have done it I have been able to work pretty easily in iMovie2. It seems reasonably fast. I'm sure the fact that I replaced the stock HD with a 5400 RPM 40gb one probably helps quite a bit. I also have a fast 7200 RPM Firewire drive that I'll hook up to and do a few tests and see how what happens. Back to the question...I typically only do simple captures and save them as quicktime movies. For anything more demanding than that I'll use FCP on my G4.

I use a tibook for work and it's very nice. It's reasonably fast (it's an older 400 G4) has a big drive and 512mb RAM. In most stuff it's not THAT much faster than the clamshell. In Altivec aware apps like Photoshop and FCP its a HUGE difference, but in more mundane things like Word or Excel it's pretty close. I like the tibook's screen although at times it seems oddly dim and overall it doesn't feel all that robust, I also really like the keyboard and ergonomics of the clamshell ibook over the tibook (and since I do a lot of writing that makes a big difference for me). Also, the tibook has lousy airport reception compared to the ibook.

Considering what you want to do I would think a late model ibook would be more than adequate for you needs. Personally, I like the robustness of the ibook and it's knock around quality and will gladly trade some performance for it.

[Jazzphone]

Sorry I didnt read all these Long Posts.

Go for the TiBook, Altivec is a big thin used with OSX so even thoughs its the only difference, it is a BIG Difference. The Graphics card on the TiBook is also faster. Even though its only a Radeon and not a 7500 the Radeon in the PowerBook has DDR Ram, So it can flow textures in out a lot faster then the 7500 hundred. The G4 ill help you out in numberous apps also. I say get the PowerBook, Its get a Bigger screen, bigger res, and you can make the ram go higher in it. Just a thought

[Agent69]

Originally posted by radarbob:
Background: Apple computer user since 1981, Macintosh user since 1989. Currently own Mac PowerPC 6100/60 (circa 1994), original iBook (blueberry) (circa 1999) and 700MHz iBook (circa 2002). The "Mk1" iBook is mine, the 700MHz model my wife's.

Is my iBook obsolete? From a technology perspective, yes in some ways. In a practical way, absolutely not.

It's really a matter of when you decide it's obsolete; when your expectations change. I can do everything today on my bb iBook that I could over 3 years ago. I'm getting along just fine with a 3GB drive, 288MB RAM, and 300MHz. I fully expect to keep mine at least two more years. I DO NOT feel the urge to be using my wife's iceBook.

Yes the iceBook is faster, and my son's Alienware PC really blows the doors off my iBook. So what. These computers raise the bar for whats possible, but in no way diminishes my iBook.

From having kept computers a very long time - I still have a Duo laptop, 25MHz, 10MB drive, B&W screen - I can say there is a point where technology both hardware and software will totally isolate your machine...

But IMHO those effects don't become really annoying for about 4 years. For example my iBook is at the point where it *needs* a larger hard drive. If I want to run Jaguar, I'd want more memory but I don't know if I can use a 512MB memory module at all.

Also, I think the Mac has a longer useful life than a PC - just my casual observation. This may be because the Macintosh in 1984 was, as time proved, at least a decade ahead of PCs in OS interface, networking, and hardware (standardized sound, video, fast I/O).


As an example of the above, my original iBook came with OS 8.6. Now I'm running OS 9.2. I am running OS X ready apps: BBEdit, Eudora, Code Warrior. I could run OS X, and some folks with the same iBook model are! By contrast if you suggested running Win2K on a machine that originally came with Win95 everyone would think you're nuts. There are also many more app/OS compatability issues on the PC.

I just want to say that this is one of the most enjoyable posts I have ever read on this forum. Thanks Radarbob.