[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Personally, I think it's misguided to consider him a center, anymore than you would consider Dirk one. He's a Euroforward. It's painfully obvious where he should be playing, particularly when some of his best games have come when Bosh was injured and he played along side Rasho.

Exactly. And that effectively makes him useless on this version of the Raptors. They don't need a 7' shooting forward who can't rebound and can't drive terribly well (and apparently can't even shoot at this point).

Right now, I figure he's either tradeable, or the Raps make the acknowledgement that they're gonna castrate themselves for the next couple/few seasons in the hopes that his C game improves. Unfortunately, his value is probably at an all-time low right now, so that question might be answered right there....

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Exactly. And that effectively makes him useless on this version of the Raptors. They don't need a 7' shooting forward who can't rebound and can't drive terribly well (and apparently can't even shoot at this point).

Right now, I figure he's either tradeable, or the Raps make the acknowledgement that they're gonna castrate themselves for the next couple/few seasons in the hopes that his C game improves. Unfortunately, his value is probably at an all-time low right now, so that question might be answered right there....

greg

Trading Bargnani would be incredibly stupid. You'd get mugged. The biggest problem is since this team over-achieved last season and made the playoffs, Sam is playing to win now, which means Bargnani is getting Darko'd most games (one mistake and you're out). That said, a few articles I read yesterday seem to have shed some light on why Bargnani's play and playing time of late have been horrific. I still think Bargnani's season is salvageable, though it won't be finishing quite like last season.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by jonasmac 

Maybe within the next few seasons we'll see a Lakers vs. Celtics Finals redux!

While that would be awesome to say the least I fail to see my belowed C's and their yellow archirivals becoming power houses in the next years…

[Dakar the Fourth]

It's the East. The C's have a realistic chance of going to the Finals this year (barring injury). Detroit has been a legitimate contender for 3 years, but is prone to meltdowns, while Cleveland has LeBron, but not much else. So I give Boston a 1 in 3 chance.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I've got to say, this picture made my day.

[exca1ibur]

This jersey would work best.

[Dakar the Fourth]

[nredman]

During high school and college when i played basketball i used to LOVE watching the NBA and college bball but now i watch neither. i'd rather watch baseball, football or even hockey before the NBA game - NCAA is watchable though

[Jawbone54]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Boston's two losses to Washington and loss to Charlotte over the last six games. A chink in the armor or inconsequential?

Separate note: it's good to see the Mavs actually finally playing as expected.

[angelmb]

BOS 109
NYK 93
as expected

DAL 84
WAS 102
wtf !?

[Dakar the Fourth]

WTF applies to Washington's entire season.

...and the Mavs haven't smoothed out all the wrinkles yet.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Well, check out Detroit too. They slaughtered the Raps last week, and then proceeded to tank.

greg

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

...and the Mavs haven't smoothed out all the wrinkles yet.

Doesn't matter if they do or not. They'll choke in the postseason. That's the story we've gotten used to.

[Chongo]

dirty refs, 'nuf said

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Well, check out Detroit too. They slaughtered the Raps last week, and then proceeded to tank.

greg

To Orlando too, the **********s.

Originally Posted by Jawbone54 

Doesn't matter if they do or not. They'll choke in the postseason. That's the story we've gotten used to.

At least you're ready. Moving Jason Terry to the bench isn't going to solve you guys getting Nowitzkied.

[angelmb]

Calderón was huge yesterday, huh?, I think I am gonna give him a cheap phone call from Spain asking for responsibilities in this, the first Celtics loss versus an Atlantic division team…

[Dakar the Fourth]

Yeah, looks like it was quite a game. From another forum:

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Hahaha...yeah I watched the game. Great showing by the Raps, but it doesn't really make me feel any better. Why? Because they were almost perfect and still should've lost, that's why.

They shot over 50%, something like 70% from 3 and perfect from the line, and it still took a last-second missed shot from Allen not to lose the game – and a decent-looking shot that he probably makes 3/5ths of the time, too. That's because the Raps' offensive rebounding was absolutely and truly pathetic. To add to that, they finally got the production out of Bargs that they've been hoping for – although it was a fairly uneven effort (he was much weaker in the second half, much like a lot of last year). If it's a sign of resurgence then well and good, but considering how much of an anomaly it's been from his season I have a hard time hoping those numbers will appear on a regular basis.

So, yeah. It's one of those "even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while" situations for me. Sure, they beat an amazing team, but they had to play at an almost-impossibly-high level to do it, and they still put the winning shot in the other team's hands. It might show of what they're capable of, but I'm not so sure it shows what they're consistently capable of...

On another note, after seeing that video again, some funny things: look at Jason Kapono! Jebus, he does not look enthused huh?? For the best 3-point shooter in the league things have definitely been rough for him lately. And another funny thing is Darrick Martin, just sitting there giving a golf clap while everyone else goes wild...

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Yep, I looked at the stats and thought "Fluke game".

Still Andrea had a really nice line. Probably his best all season.

Edit: As for Kapono, he's seen Dwyane Wade drag the Heat to the finish line in one of the largest upsets in sports history. A mid-season game against a team that hasn't really earned anything yet shouldn't really impress him.

(Way to go Jose, though)

[Dakar the Fourth]

Also, the best comparison to Sam I've seen yet:

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Still Andrea had a really nice line. Probably his best all season.

Oh, line-wise, I'd argue it's one of his best ever. 20-7-7 is freakin' amazing.

It was the second half that made me disappointed, from a rebounding perspective. I don't know if he got a single board, and he had several opportunities to do so. Considering the ridiculous number of offensive boards the Celtics got (I don't know, but it was definitely way over 10), it's clear things went downhill after the half.

(That comes from my perspective that I don't really care about Bargnani scoring. I mean, I know the guy can shoot and has offensive prowess, but I'd rather he be a 14-8-1.5blk guy rather than a 20-4-1blk. My brother likes to talk about Bargs' offensive mismatches and the unimportance of o-boards to winning and such, but I still feel that the Raps have enough good shooters that the floor is well-spread; I basically want a taller, better-shooting Hump. I always feel that when they're not hitting baskets, that type of "paint playing" goes a long way in cleaning up the ****. My bro argues that Bosh's drives should take care of that, but I don't think he can handle the type of abuse he'll get if he has to do it consistently, like in the playoffs. Anyway, I guess my point is that I'm conceeding that Bargnani isn't really who *I* want right now...although it would be nice to see how things play out with Ford in the lineup.... )

On a side note, you probably didn't see it but Bargnani had a hilarious interview with the announcer Leo Rautins at the half. (I don't like Leo; I think he's annoying.) Anyways, Leo was just gushing over how great he was doing, and Bargs just shut basically shut him down with some awkward "I'm not going to talk about my game" comments. It was even better because of his poor english, I think it came out sounding a lot more dismissive than he probably meant it, but still...nice embarrassing moment.

greg

[Jawbone54]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

On a side note, you probably didn't see it but Bargnani had a hilarious interview with the announcer Leo Rautins at the half. (I don't like Leo; I think he's annoying.) Anyways, Leo was just gushing over how great he was doing, and Bargs just shut basically shut him down with some awkward "I'm not going to talk about my game" comments. It was even better because of his poor english, I think it came out sounding a lot more dismissive than he probably meant it, but still...nice embarrassing moment.

greg

Wish I had seen that. I love Europeans who sound a lot meaner than they probably mean to.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Oh, line-wise, I'd argue it's one of his best ever. 20-7-7 is freakin' amazing.

I was thinking that, but I didn't want to go out on a limb since I don't watch enough games.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

It was the second half that made me disappointed, from a rebounding perspective. I don't know if he got a single board, and he had several opportunities to do so. Considering the ridiculous number of offensive boards the Celtics got (I don't know, but it was definitely way over 10), it's clear things went downhill after the half.

(That comes from my perspective that I don't really care about Bargnani scoring. I mean, I know the guy can shoot and has offensive prowess, but I'd rather he be a 14-8-1.5blk guy rather than a 20-4-1blk. My brother likes to talk about Bargs' offensive mismatches and the unimportance of o-boards to winning and such, but I still feel that the Raps have enough good shooters that the floor is well-spread; I basically want a taller, better-shooting Hump. I always feel that when they're not hitting baskets, that type of "paint playing" goes a long way in cleaning up the ****. My bro argues that Bosh's drives should take care of that, but I don't think he can handle the type of abuse he'll get if he has to do it consistently, like in the playoffs. Anyway, I guess my point is that I'm conceeding that Bargnani isn't really who *I* want right now...although it would be nice to see how things play out with Ford in the lineup.... )

I see where you're coming from -- I've never been a big Bosh fan (I like him, I just don't see him as an alpha male-type Superstar), so I'm always lamenting he's too damned skinny to bang with heavy hitting forwards.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

On a side note, you probably didn't see it but Bargnani had a hilarious interview with the announcer Leo Rautins at the half. (I don't like Leo; I think he's annoying.) Anyways, Leo was just gushing over how great he was doing, and Bargs just shut basically shut him down with some awkward "I'm not going to talk about my game" comments. It was even better because of his poor english, I think it came out sounding a lot more dismissive than he probably meant it, but still...nice embarrassing moment.

I know Leo from my torrented games and his reputation on RealGM. ("Onions, baby!").I'm sure Bargnani has had it with all the scrutiny he's under, I definitely would deliver the European cold shoulder too. I'm not sure I've ever heard him speak...

Anyway, side note: Bryan Colangelo is on Chad Ford's ESPN pod cast today or tomorrow if you're interested.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I see where you're coming from -- I've never been a big Bosh fan (I like him, I just don't see him as an alpha male-type Superstar), so I'm always lamenting he's too damned skinny to bang with heavy hitting forwards.

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far; I love Bosh, perhaps precisely because he's not the alpha-male type. I'm convinced he can drive past any big in the league though, and it seems he can get to the line seemingly at will. What you have is everyone on the floor knowing exactly what will happen once Bosh gets the ball: he will drive if his man is too close (best option), he will shoot if his man backs off too much (good option), or he will handle the ball, probably draw the double team, and hand it off (mediocre option). When he drives, he's so fast that he can almost always draw the foul; he's a very good shooter, but he's not a KG-quality passer out of the double team (although to be fair, he's still young and is getting better).

But since the Raps don't have a big player to take some heat off on D and with rebounding, he is often playing against bigger and more physical players. Come playoff time, you KNOW they're going to make him drive every time to tire him out, and I don't know if anyone could take that amount of pounding.

I know Leo from my torrented games and his reputation on RealGM. ("Onions, baby!").I'm sure Bargnani has had it with all the scrutiny he's under, I definitely would deliver the European cold shoulder too. I'm not sure I've ever heard him speak...

Yeah, that's Chuck...a little bald dude. He's also fairly annoying...he's got these "sayings" that are kinda cheesy and he keeps repeating them over and over. Every once in a while he's bring out the "OH MY BOSH" yell after a throwdown or something, and I have to restrain the urge to put my fist through the TV. Anyways yeah, Bargs has a very strong Italian accent, so it's pretty funny....

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

I think the Raptors season can summed up by the Home-and-Home they just had with the Wizards.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Sorry man, I missed this reply since it came on the weekend.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Yeah, I wouldn't go that far; I love Bosh, perhaps precisely because he's not the alpha-male type. I'm convinced he can drive past any big in the league though, and it seems he can get to the line seemingly at will. What you have is everyone on the floor knowing exactly what will happen once Bosh gets the ball: he will drive if his man is too close (best option), he will shoot if his man backs off too much (good option), or he will handle the ball, probably draw the double team, and hand it off (mediocre option). When he drives, he's so fast that he can almost always draw the foul; he's a very good shooter, but he's not a KG-quality passer out of the double team (although to be fair, he's still young and is getting better).

All that said, the guy has seriously exceeded my expectations, has had quite a few big number games this season, and is surprisingly only second to KG in PER at the power forward position.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Yeah, that's Chuck...a little bald dude. He's also fairly annoying...he's got these "sayings" that are kinda cheesy and he keeps repeating them over and over. Every once in a while he's bring out the "OH MY BOSH" yell after a throwdown or something, and I have to restrain the urge to put my fist through the TV. Anyways yeah, Bargs has a very strong Italian accent, so it's pretty funny....

My mistake. I guess the short of it is I've never really noticed the color commentary when I've watched those games. What that says about him, I don't know.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I think the Raptors season can summed up by the Home-and-Home they just had with the Wizards.

I think so. Basically, I think it exemplifies my complaints; when they're not making shots (e.g. from either good defending, bad shooting, or both), there's no one else besides Bosh who can get inside and draw fouls, get to the line, and wear down opponents. It's just shoot-shoot-shoot all night long, and if they don't start going in the Raps are going down with the ship.

Similarly, rebounding was a massive issue. That was one area where I had some serious problems the first game; Bargs was not shooting the ball well in the first half, but he was having a decent night on the boards, and he was getting open looks. So he's essentially benched for the second half, and doesn't see time even as the Wiz make a huge run and massacre the Raps with offensive rebounds.

I mean, I don't know; obviously the Wiz adjusted at the half, but whatever he was doing was working relatively well; he was the only positive +/- starter on the team. If he's got 4 fouls, who cares; let him foul out if need be – it's not like you'll run into a situation where you'll need him at the end of the game.

greg

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

All that said, the guy has seriously exceeded my expectations, has had quite a few big number games this season, and is surprisingly only second to KG in PER at the power forward position.

Yeah, I'm lovin' it. As long as he doesn't settle for the jumpshot and keeps driving to pick up fouls and keep the D honest, I think he's unstoppable.

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

If he's got 4 fouls, who cares; let him foul out if need be – it's not like you'll run into a situation where you'll need him at the end of the game.

greg

This has been my latest complaint with mitchell. I don't know if it was the Pistions or Sixers game, but both Bargs and Bosh had two fouls by the end of the first and he sat both till the third.

[Shaddim]

Wow, they still play professional basketball?

[Dakar the Fourth]

Didn't we have this conversation last year?

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Didn't we have this conversation last year?

This is simply my annual show of disdain for the sport.

However, I do enjoy college ball.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I'd have disdain too if my team were the Grizzlies.

[Shaddim]

Charlotte is closer.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Last I remember in a PM you referred to the Griz. But that was several account ago for us and I'm not checking.

[Shaddim]

I gave up on all of it, now I only watch college BB. It helps that my college team is one of the best in the nation.

[Dakar the Fourth]

I can't follow college. Too many teams and players change too frequently.

[Jawbone54]

Duke fan here. I have no idea why. Something clicked in my head when I was young and saw Grant Hill's alley-oop from Bobby Hurley in the NCAA championship game.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Pau Gasol to the Lakers for the pu pu platter.

[angelmb]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

Pau Gasol to the Lakers for the pu pu platter.

The Memphis Grizzlies will send Pau Gasol and a future second-round pick to the Lakers for Kwame Brown, Javaris Crittenton, the unofficially retired Aaron McKie, the draft rights to Pau Gasol's brother Marc and future first-round picks in 2008 and 2010, NBA front-office sources told ESPN.com's Marc Stein.

Marc Gasol is a weird player… like that guy playing basketball cause his brother (Paul) is that good… that is what you could think when both were playing for F.C. Barcelona (Spain), but Marc has made a huge progress this last three years… while he can't stand a comparison with Paul or Garbajosa, the guy doesn't give up ever but even so I don't know how well he could make it to NBA… well, it is not like any center in the NBA is a power center nowadays… Brian Scalabrine anyone?

[Jawbone54]

This trade should finally make Kobe happy. Maybe he'll stop whining now. The Lakers could (already) be returning to the top few teams of the league if things turn out the way they're hoping with this trade.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

That trade is mindboggling. It's mindboggling enough to boggle my mind.

The Lakers scored a perfect player for what they need; a guy who can play centre, and then switch to forward when Bynum returns. Memphis got gonads in return: Kwame's useless, Javaris is a gamble as an unknown, and it looks like the draft picks might be late-round? Does anyone know if they'll be early-round picks? That's the only way this could make sense to me.

Man. I don't understand. Besides Gasol's contract, it seems like there's no downside at all for the Lakers.

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Sadly, it's all about the money. Memphis isn't making money, and they're cap situation makes them unattractive to perspective owners. I think the part I find most amusing is Memphis just partly relieved their logjam at point by buying out Stoudamire, and now they've reengaged it with Critteron. As for L.A., they've now picked up another almost All-Star, like Lamar Odom, who imagine is not long for somewhere else. The question is what they will try to turn him into (my vote would be a good back-up C and a true small forward).

[Dakar the Fourth]

Oh yeah, Bargnani goes for 28? Too bad they lost the game.

...and its good news to hear TJ is close to returning.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Well, now that is official, Shaq is a Phoenix Sun (and Shawn Marion a Miami Heat).

Insane.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Yeah! If he can stay healthy (and I imagine a championship-calibre team will do a lot for one's spirits), then IMO this is one of the Suns' last good chances for a trophy with their current line-up. I'm hearing a lot of people whining about him keeping up with their "run-and-gun" offence, but I don't really know how much of that is just empty talk to be honest. I don't see how the centre taking slightly longer to get down the floor will matter a lot to them, and a lot of their run-and-gun was based on Stoudamire's quickness; he's still there. Sure, there might be some slowdown required, but having a true post presence will probably take care of any discrepancy IMO (and be a better weapon against teams to try and negate the Suns' quickness by slowing the game down).

I don't know about the rebounding aspect; I don't really see how Stoudamire and Marion is a lot better than Shaq and Stoudamire, respectively.

Really, the only bad thing I see is that playing the Heat might not be automatic Raptors wins for the rest of the season....

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Yeah! If he can stay healthy (and I imagine a championship-calibre team will do a lot for one's spirits), then IMO this is one of the Suns' last good chances for a trophy with their current line-up. I'm hearing a lot of people whining about him keeping up with their "run-and-gun" offence, but I don't really know how much of that is just empty talk to be honest. I don't see how the centre taking slightly longer to get down the floor will matter a lot to them, and a lot of their run-and-gun was based on Stoudamire's quickness; he's still there. Sure, there might be some slowdown required, but having a true post presence will probably take care of any discrepancy IMO (and be a better weapon against teams to try and negate the Suns' quickness by slowing the game down).

I think it's best to ask these questions:
Before the trade who was their best finisher on the break?
Before the trade who was their best rebounder?
Before the trade who was their best defender for positions 1-4?

The worst part is I seriously think Kurt Thomas is a better big defender than Shaq. And since Shaqs legs are gone, Nash alley-oops are all but out of the equation.

We'll see come playoff time. This is why they pay coaches. We'll see if D'antoni can make it work.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Really, the only bad thing I see is that playing the Heat might not be automatic Raptors wins for the rest of the season....

greg

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed we've only played one game against them this season. They were part of the cake schedule we were supposed to finish the season with (We've had the second toughest schedule in the league thus far).

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by Dakar the Fourth 

I think it's best to ask these questions:
Before the trade who was their best finisher on the break?
Before the trade who was their best rebounder?
Before the trade who was their best defender for positions 1-4?

Well, makes sense, except these are just the specific questions for which Marion was the answer. There's no question that in trading away an 18mil/year guy you're gonna lose some things. Trying to determine exactly what the new player can do to nullify those losses is the hard part.

I mean, concerning rebounding: shifting Stoudemire to PF (as I assume they'll do?) should in theory give him less rebounding competition from opponents. Assuming, say, 30 minutes a game from Shaq (dubious I know, but I imagine that's what they're looking for), I can't imagine that he'll average a lot less than Stoudemire does now at C. So you're traded away a great 4-spot rebounder, and in his place you put a not-quite-as-good 5-spot rebounder, and a solid Centre rebounder. Hard to say whether Shaq's presence will open things up even more for Amare or not....

Yeah, I'm pretty pissed we've only played one game against them this season. They were part of the cake schedule we were supposed to finish the season with (We've had the second toughest schedule in the league thus far).

I didn't know that. I assume that's somehow calculated against teams' records? That's pretty cool.

greg

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Well, makes sense, except these are just the specific questions for which Marion was the answer. There's no question that in trading away an 18mil/year guy you're gonna lose some things. Trying to determine exactly what the new player can do to nullify those losses is the hard part.

I mean, concerning rebounding: shifting Stoudemire to PF (as I assume they'll do?) should in theory give him less rebounding competition from opponents. Assuming, say, 30 minutes a game from Shaq (dubious I know, but I imagine that's what they're looking for), I can't imagine that he'll average a lot less than Stoudemire does now at C. So you're traded away a great 4-spot rebounder, and in his place you put a not-quite-as-good 5-spot rebounder, and a solid Centre rebounder. Hard to say whether Shaq's presence will open things up even more for Amare or not....

Yep.

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

I didn't know that. I assume that's somehow calculated against teams' records? That's pretty cool.

greg

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/hollin...os&order=false

Portland's accomplishments this year go up a notch when you notice them come in 4th on the list.

[Jawbone54]

I've been dealing the past two days with a friend passing away from cancer. I didn't hear about the Shaq trade until tonight.

One made up word: un-be-freakin'-lievable.

I am actually saddened by this. I'm not sure how much sense it makes; I'm not sure I care. All that's certain in my eyes is that the most entertaining team to watch has pretty much been scrapped. It's as if they just pulled the e-brake on their fast break style.

It's also one of the biggest short-term "fixes" I've ever seen. Shaq is almost 36.

Blah. Just blah.