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Intense Control on MacNN from Admins
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freudling
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2005
Status: Offline
Aug 6, 2008, 04:26 PM
 
I just received 2 warnings over the past week. I don't see that "warnings" and threats of being banned for the comments I posted are warranted.

In response to ghporter and his long posts, I posted this:

ghporter:

Why do your posts have to be so loooooong? I read the first half sentence and realize that I am pretty convinced that you like to hear the sound of your own voice. After the first half sentence, I move on... If I were an administrator, I would give you a warning for excessive text in your posts as it derails meaningful discussion, which would be in line with MacNN's Socialist policies.


Here is what Cold Warrior sent me:

Dear freudling,

You have received a warning at MacNN Forums.

Reason:
-------
Incitement/Impersonal Attack

There's a line between constructive dialogue and personal snipes. This one crosses the line. Admins and mods aren't your personal punching bag -- they should be treated with the same courtesy you'd extend to other members. It also derails the thread, which can impede real dialogue.

There is nothing wrong with this post... It is not a personal attack. It points out that long posts can derail threads and that ghporter is guilty of long posts. It also looks like he likes to just write and go off on boring tangents. We are guaranteed free speech by the constitution and by warning and/or banning people for making comments such as the above flies in the face of our rights. The "if I were" bit is just hyperbole to point out how ridiculous the control on this site has gotten.

This one is just MacNN at its best, and Cold Warrior once again handing out the warning:

I said, over in the Batman thread:

I just saw it again for a second time and I have to say, I really enjoyed it. I fell asleep after the first 5 minutes but dreamt of an improved version of it the entire way through. Too bad I could not have had that dream before this movie was made...


Infraction: Derailing/Off-topic posts

Right, humor is not allowed. This is really absurd and totally unwarranted.

Either MacNN changes its policies or I think the only thing that is going to change this site is a class action lawsuit.
     
Simon
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Aug 6, 2008, 04:42 PM
 
Glenn is an excellent admin. Your post was snotty for no obvious reason. You got what you deserved.
     
Randman
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Aug 6, 2008, 04:45 PM
 
You were being a pita and are now complaining because you were called out for them?

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Simon
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Aug 6, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
Also, I believe threads about members (which I guess includes you as well as mods) are not allowed per the forum rules. If you have a problem with moderation, take it up with the mods in PM. This little dispute is of no general interest. Awaiting lockination.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 6, 2008, 04:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Also, I believe threads about members (which I guess includes you as well as mods) are not allowed per the forum rules. If you have a problem with moderation, take it up with the mods in PM. This little dispute is of no general interest. Awaiting lockination.
It's Feedback. This discussion is allowable, if not cliché.

Edit: Anyway, nothing out of the ordinary on the moderation.
     
Randman
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Aug 6, 2008, 04:56 PM
 
The second one I'd probably let pass, allowing that it was in the lounge and you had been carrying on responses to your view.

On the first, I think the mods were spot-on. You weren't trying to be friendly or engaging in a little banter/verbal jousting/smack-talking. It was a personal attack and one aimed at the website in general (socialist is a giveaway).

You weren't banned, or given a break, just a warning. What more could you ask for?

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besson3c
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:03 PM
 
Constitution? Class action lawsuit? Give me a freakin' break dude, this is a forum run by a private company, and as such does have a right to protect its interests as it sees fit. This is not some sort of free democracy forum that your tax dollars pay for, if you are really looking for such a thing you could exercise your freedoms and start your own forum.

Really, you know that I've provided plenty of critique of this forum before and have become known as fairly outspoken on certain things, but the Constitution? Class action lawsuit? Weak...
     
scaught
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Either MacNN changes its policies or I think the only thing that is going to change this site is a class action lawsuit.
Hahjahahahhahahahhahah
     
reader50
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
title: Intense Control on MacNN from Admins
I checked, both warnings were awarded by Cold Warrior rather than an Admin.

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I just received 2 warnings over the past week. I don't see that "warnings" and threats of being banned for the comments I posted are warranted.
I don't see any threats of being banned. Infractions can add up to a tempban, but Warnings do nothing.

Originally Posted by freudling View Post
... If I were an administrator, I would give you a warning for excessive text in your posts as it derails meaningful discussion, which would be in line with MacNN's Socialist policies.
You threatened to hand out a Warning, and received one. Irony comes to mind.

MacNN Forums are not a public place in the usual sense. They are accessible to the public, but exist on private property (several servers somewhere) that might not even be in the US at all times. Also, all registered members agree to the forum rules during registration - which specify that moderators and administrators have the final say on any moderation decision.

That said, members sometimes disagree with moderation decisions. You are free to protest to Cold Warrior of your innocence, that the items in question might not deserve a warning, and that the conspiracy is hard at work. Politeness can help a lot in such PMs, and I'll admit keeping the message short can help too.

Failing that, protest to an Admin, or in Feedback as you have done here. If we are silencing you with socialist policies, then we don't seem to be doing a very efficient job of it.

The local moderators set the tone in each forum, so they make the call how far posts can go off topic in their threads. Since I don't have that forum, have not watched the movie, and not read the thread, it would not be fair to offer an opinion on the subject.
     
turtle777
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:52 PM
 
Business as usual at 'NN.

I only recently learned that there is a difference between warnings and infractions.

However, since every mod can do as he likes and his rulings are final, all bets are off on what the consequences will be.

-t
     
Randman
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:57 PM
 
Pro tip: Don't always try and be a dick with a grudge and you'll likely not have to worry about bans. Pushing the envelope is one thing. Crossing it is another.

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freudling  (op)
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Aug 6, 2008, 05:59 PM
 
I checked, both warnings were awarded by Cold Warrior rather than an Admin.

My mistake, I equated Admins to Moderators, so just insert Moderators.

You threatened to hand out a Warning, and received one. Irony comes to mind.

What is your point?

MacNN Forums are not a public place in the usual sense. They are accessible to the public, but exist on private property (several servers somewhere) that might not even be in the US at all times. Also, all registered members agree to the forum rules during registration - which specify that moderators and administrators have the final say on any moderation decision.

Just because you have a set of terms and conditions that you make people agree to, does not mean those terms and conditions cannot be challenged in court.

If we are silencing you with socialist policies, then we don't seem to be doing a very efficient job of it.

What do you mean? That there would be more censorship as such...

I think at this point saying that sites can constrain free speech might be going off old ideas and old legal precedents/interpretations. There are numerous IGOs, attorneys, cases, etc. associated with free speech on the web. I am not saying that MacNN and the like cannot censor some of the information that is posted, but the degree to which they take this is questionable and may be something that a group of people could challenge in court. With the write arguments and evidence, a class action suit could have some wheels.
     
residentEvil
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Aug 6, 2008, 06:48 PM
 
there are so many other things to worry about then a message board. your rights aren't be stifled.

as rambo once said...

I could have killed 'em all, I could kill you. In town you're the law, out here it's me. Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe. Let it go. Let it go.

let it go
     
ghporter
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Aug 6, 2008, 07:21 PM
 
If a mod or admin didn't explain a warning or infraction thoroughly, would you understand why it was given? Would you prefer "STFU"-type notices? That wouldn't tell you anything about why we thought something was bad, nor how to (if you were of a mind to) do better in the future, now would it?

And again, is this concise enough for you?

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Demonhood
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Aug 6, 2008, 07:22 PM
 
so your basic argument is that we should allow anyone to be a jerk on our forums as long as they claim they aren't being a jerk?

a moderator used his judgment and came to the conclusion that you were violating some of our rules. you received a warning (which, as reader pointed out, is really the mildest possible thing that you can get). you, like many before you, don't believe that you misbehaved. that's your right. but it is our judgment that matters here.

did you attempt to contact the moderator for clarification on this matter? or was this feedback thread the first contact you made with us? of course, nowhere in your post did you say anything about modifying your behavior. it was all about changing our policies so that you can do whatever you like. you can see how this might not be the best tact to take. and, not that it needs to be said again, but the Constitution guarantees no freedom of speech in these forums. i shouldn't be surprised that people still believe this, but i am.
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2008, 09:08 PM
 
We the people of MacNN, hold these rules to be self evident...
     
scaught
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Aug 6, 2008, 10:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I checked, both warnings were awarded by Cold Warrior rather than an Admin.

My mistake, I equated Admins to Moderators, so just insert Moderators.

You threatened to hand out a Warning, and received one. Irony comes to mind.

What is your point?

MacNN Forums are not a public place in the usual sense. They are accessible to the public, but exist on private property (several servers somewhere) that might not even be in the US at all times. Also, all registered members agree to the forum rules during registration - which specify that moderators and administrators have the final say on any moderation decision.

Just because you have a set of terms and conditions that you make people agree to, does not mean those terms and conditions cannot be challenged in court.

If we are silencing you with socialist policies, then we don't seem to be doing a very efficient job of it.

What do you mean? That there would be more censorship as such...

I think at this point saying that sites can constrain free speech might be going off old ideas and old legal precedents/interpretations. There are numerous IGOs, attorneys, cases, etc. associated with free speech on the web. I am not saying that MacNN and the like cannot censor some of the information that is posted, but the degree to which they take this is questionable and may be something that a group of people could challenge in court. With the write arguments and evidence, a class action suit could have some wheels.
Before I just laughed, but this time I almost fell out of my chair. Are you frigging serious?

(Glenn - you're cracking me up, too.)
     
besson3c
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Aug 6, 2008, 11:00 PM
 
freudling: what makes you think you have any free speech rights on MacNN?
     
Randman
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Aug 6, 2008, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
I checked, both warnings were awarded by Cold Warrior rather than an Admin.

My mistake, I equated Admins to Moderators, so just insert Moderators.

You threatened to hand out a Warning, and received one. Irony comes to mind.

What is your point?

MacNN Forums are not a public place in the usual sense. They are accessible to the public, but exist on private property (several servers somewhere) that might not even be in the US at all times. Also, all registered members agree to the forum rules during registration - which specify that moderators and administrators have the final say on any moderation decision.

Just because you have a set of terms and conditions that you make people agree to, does not mean those terms and conditions cannot be challenged in court.

If we are silencing you with socialist policies, then we don't seem to be doing a very efficient job of it.

What do you mean? That there would be more censorship as such...

I think at this point saying that sites can constrain free speech might be going off old ideas and old legal precedents/interpretations. There are numerous IGOs, attorneys, cases, etc. associated with free speech on the web. I am not saying that MacNN and the like cannot censor some of the information that is posted, but the degree to which they take this is questionable and may be something that a group of people could challenge in court. With the write arguments and evidence, a class action suit could have some wheels.
Now I know why he didn't like The Dark Knight.

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freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2008, 12:31 AM
 
Exactly.
     
Cold Warrior
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Aug 7, 2008, 12:52 AM
 
You never asked for clarification or additional explanation. This smells more like a personal vendetta, so I'll avoid the tit-for-tat and just mention a couple things about the greater driving forces behind the actions.

Your Dark Knight warning came first. Your actions in the greater context of the thread -- not just the single post -- looked like a derail to me. Two of your later posts (which I deleted) lent additional confirmation that you were more interested in taunting and derailing than discussing. I'm sure others would disagree, and the warning was me giving you the benefit of the doubt. In the warning message I wrote (which you didn't seem keen on sharing)
Originally Posted by CW
At this point it looks like you're deliberately antagonizing everyone else in the thread who likes the movie. Opinions are welcome, but derailing the thread on purpose is another matter.
Later you took it out on ghporter, which generated an overly generous warning (I've made a commitment to myself in the past couple of weeks to lighten up). Other mods and admins can certainly take care of themselves. My point with the warning was that you were taking personal snipes at someone. The warning was very fair. Next time it comes with points.

It seems like most members here don't sympathize with you, so I'll leave it at that and let everyone make up their own mind.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2008, 02:50 AM
 
This is all I read of your post:

You never asked for clarification or additional explanation. This smells more like a personal vendetta...

This is not personal: something I have been alluding to for a while on here, before any warnings. I was meaning to post this topic as a result of the control on this site but never got around to it. This was an impetus rather than a cause.
     
Simon
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Aug 7, 2008, 03:01 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
...which would be in line with MacNN's Socialist policies.
Either MacNN changes its policies or I think the only thing that is going to change this site is a class action lawsuit.
Socialist* policies? Class action lawsuits?

Dude, are you serious? This is a private board. They have rules. You agreed to them when you signed on. Now you broke them. And they are calling you for it. Stick to the rules or leave. It's really that simple.


*) Using the word socialist in this context mocks all the people that suffered under so-called "socialist" regimes. You obviously have no clue about the agony caused by these dictatorships if you use that kind of wording when it comes to your little vendetta with one of the mods. Get real.
     
C.A.T.S. CEO
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Aug 7, 2008, 03:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
Either MacNN changes its policies or I think the only thing that is going to change this site is a class action lawsuit.


Not much else to say here...
Signature depreciated.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 7, 2008, 04:02 AM
 
I agree.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Aug 7, 2008, 09:30 PM
 
Freudling...

Assholes exist on both sides of the fence. Some seem to get away with it constantly. Mods have their favorites who can do no wrong even when they tell another member to **** off. And on the other hand an attempt at on topic humor gets another member a 10 point infraction.

Go figure, I cant.

In other words, stay out of the w** lounge.

I can't even post anything anymore. I get an automatic infraction.
     
ghporter
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Aug 7, 2008, 09:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Freudling...

Assholes exist on both sides of the fence. Some seem to get away with it constantly. Mods have their favorites who can do no wrong even when they tell another member to **** off. And on the other hand an attempt at on topic humor gets another member a 10 point infraction.

Go figure, I cant.

In other words, stay out of the w** lounge.

I can't even post anything anymore. I get an automatic infraction.
I haven't given you an infraction in a long time, if ever. However, I also don't read each and every word you post... That may have something to do with it too. If I see someone literally telling another member to "push off" (or the more coarse version you allude to), I certainly am going to do something about it. That's not "civil," which is the whole point of our rules. On the other hand, if the mod can't tell it's humor, is it really humor? And if it is really humor, shouldn't everyone see that's what it is? I'd like to have a nice, pat answer to your predicament, because I do see it as a predicament. But I don't have one. We're human, and just like other members, if someone pushes our buttons hard enough and long enough, they'll get a not-too-nice response. That sort of wears on you after a while.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Atomic Rooster
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Aug 7, 2008, 10:22 PM
 
I've got no beef with you Glenn. As far as I know you may be the fairest and understanding of the bunch that are on your side of the fence. I know you're most certainly the smartest. (A little ass kissing.)

w** was a hint.

Damn, I feel an infraction coming.
     
Randman
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Aug 7, 2008, 10:34 PM
 

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Chuckit
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Aug 7, 2008, 10:40 PM
 
Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster View Post
Mods have their favorites who can do no wrong even when they tell another member to **** off. And on the other hand an attempt at on topic humor gets another member a 10 point infraction.
Just because we don't discuss our actions with you doesn't mean other members have impunity. Likewise, somebody may say something to you and you'll think, "Hey, that's even worse than what I did," but to somebody uninvolved it might look different. (That's a generic "you." I think we've all been in that kind of situation.)

In the OP's case, from his perspective, he was just expressing his opinion. That's a valid viewpoint. But the way he was expressing his opinion was clearly having a disruptive effect on the thread and it would have wound up spiraling into flames and lockination if that pattern had continued. So Cold Warrior asked him to play nice. No punishment at all — just a reminder to take others' feelings into account. I think maybe the "warning" format made it come across as harsh, but that's all it really was. Given that it's our job to try and keep threads from flying off the tracks, I hope you can see why we might make that request.

Sorry, I'm getting long-winded. Basically, be nice to other people (including the staff, who are people too) and you will most likely never get any infractions. That's the secret to becoming the mods' "favorite."
Chuck
___
"Instead of either 'multi-talented' or 'multitalented' use 'bisexual'."
     
Atomic Rooster
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Aug 7, 2008, 10:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Randman View Post
I'm a veggie...













...not really. Never tried dead horse but I love dead cows and chickens and I really love dead pigs.
     
Atomic Rooster
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Aug 7, 2008, 10:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chuckit View Post
Just because we don't discuss our actions with you doesn't mean other members have impunity. Likewise, somebody may say something to you and you'll think, "Hey, that's even worse than what I did," but to somebody uninvolved it might look different. (That's a generic "you." I think we've all been in that kind of situation.)

In the OP's case, from his perspective, he was just expressing his opinion. That's a valid viewpoint. But the way he was expressing his opinion was clearly having a disruptive effect on the thread and it would have wound up spiraling into flames and lockination if that pattern had continued. So Cold Warrior asked him to play nice. No punishment at all — just a reminder to take others' feelings into account. I think maybe the "warning" format made it come across as harsh, but that's all it really was. Given that it's our job to try and keep threads from flying off the tracks, I hope you can see why we might make that request.

Sorry, I'm getting long-winded. Basically, be nice to other people (including the staff, who are people too) and you will most likely never get any infractions. That's the secret to becoming the mods' "favorite."
I think more warnings if it starts to derail is sufficient unless they are a constant derailee.

Just sayin'.

Anyways, that's all the dead horse beating for me. I'm starting to get hot.
     
freudling  (op)
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Aug 8, 2008, 01:32 PM
 
It's funny that I get two warnings within days of each other by Cold Warrior.

The humor post that I was given a warning for is not cool. I see these happening all the time. When I get time, I am going to grab some quotes of the "favorites" telling other people off and I would not be surprised if they were not given any warnings.

The problem here is if you want to give out "penalties", it needs to be more objective. That means that a group of people who have no vested interest in anything to do with MacNN should be like an appeals committee. I know this is probably unrealistic, but it would be better than what we have now: a bunch of people who pretty much have the final say with no other people over them.

Another option is to get rid of the Cold Warriors all together, and just implement a software solution that would help alleviate any profanity and keep topics on spot. I did some research for E-Learning in graduate school and there are some solutions out there that do just this thing.
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 01:35 PM
 
Now that you have mentioned Cold Warrior by name, you have opened yourself up for a class action lawsuit from him. Nice going!
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 01:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by freudling View Post
When I get time, I am going to grab some quotes of the "favorites" telling other people off and I would not be surprised if they were not given any warnings.
This I want to see.

We need Congressional Hearings on the performance of moderators.
white text
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 04:56 PM
 
We need congressional hearings on the performance of your face.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:08 PM
 
Reported.
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:09 PM
 
Good, I want you to report me so that I can witness this intense control firsthand and start a class action lawsuit.
     
abbaZaba
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:14 PM
 
please go to a lawyer and present your case. wear some video-capable specs and put the video of the lawyer laughing at you as you leave the office.

then put it up on youtube so we can have someone post it here as the "funniest clip evAR"
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Good, I want you to report me so that I can witness this intense control firsthand and start a class action lawsuit.
I lied. Thwarted.
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:16 PM
 
I just reported you for lying to me. That wasn't cool at all.
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:19 PM
 
Oops. That backfired.
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:21 PM
 
Fortunately for you, I lied. Thwarted!
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:22 PM
 
I knew that, and merely delivered a line designed to get you to admit it. Double thwarted!
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:23 PM
 
Your face is double thwarted!
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:27 PM
 
So... the question is, do I start all this doúchebaggery again by posting "reported" in response to that?
     
besson3c
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:30 PM
 
I could go all day Dakar, and don't think you can outlast me!

P.S. why is there a 4 in your signature?
     
Dakar the Fourth
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Aug 8, 2008, 05:37 PM
 
I'd never be so arrogant as to think I could beat you in a battle of idiocy.

Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
P.S. why is there a 4 in your signature?
It's the current average derived from the answers of 50 random Lounge members when questioned as to how many braincells they think you have. All averages are rounded up to the nearest integer divisible by four.
     
sek929
Posting Junkie
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Cape Cod, MA
Status: Offline
Aug 8, 2008, 05:45 PM
 
Get a room you two.

Preferably one pre-loaded with Anal Lube™
     
Dakar the Fourth
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In the hearts and minds of MacNNers
Status: Offline
Aug 8, 2008, 05:52 PM
 
Et tu, sek?
     
 
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