[Zimphire]

http://www.asianews.it/view.php?l=en&art=2972

Tehran (AsiaNews/MEC) - Hamid Pourmand, a lay leader in a church and a convert from Islam, will appear before an Islamic court next week to face charges of apostasy, Christians in Iran have learned.

If found guilty Pourmand is likely to face the death penalty.
Pourmand is a lay leader in the Assemblies of God church in Bandar-i Bushehr and converted to Christianity in 1980. At the time of his arrest he was a Colonel in the Iranian army.
He was arrested September 9, 2004, together with 85 other participants of the annual general conference of denomination. The other Christians were released within the next three days, but pastor Pourmand was charged with hiding his conversion from his superiors. According to Iranian law only Muslims can be officers in the army.
On February 16, 2005, pastor Pourmand was found guilty of this charge, even though he presented several papers in court which proved his superior were aware he was a Christian. He was sentenced to three years imprisonment, discharge from the army, and loss of his entire income, pension and housing for his family. A few days later his wife and two children were forced to vacate their house.
Yesterday, Christians learned of the new charges of apostasy from Islam and proselytising other Muslims.

Apostasy is a capital offence in Iran. In the last 16 years 3 Iranian church leaders have been charged was apostasy and found guilty. All three were sentenced to death. Pastor Hussein Soodman was hanged in 1989. Deacon Maher already had a noose around his neck when he signalled his willingness to recant and was released after signing a paper to that effect in 1992. Pastor Mehdi Dibaj was condemned to death in December 1993. He was released three weeks later after a strong international outcry; only to be found murdered 6 months later.
Christians in Iran have expressed great fears for pastor Hamid's life.

[REB3L]

He converted in 1980, during the Revolution? Something tells me there is more to his story.

Still, what a barbaric thing to do to a person.

[Zimphire]

The very fact that there is a law against people that covert to Christianity says a lot about the culture itself.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

The very fact that there is a law against people that covert to Christianity says a lot about the culture itself.

Seems to me that Christians did the same thing at a similar age of their religion! (Inquisition) The office was abolished only a few years ago. So I don't feel sorry for them. sam

[Millennium]

Projecting the actions of a single sect onto the whole? Sounds to me as though both sides are guilty.

[REB3L]

Originally Posted by SVass

Seems to me that Christians did the same thing at a similar age of their religion! (Inquisition) The office was abolished only a few years ago. So I don't feel sorry for them. sam

A few years ago? That's an understatement, it's been a few hundred years since the Inquisition has been of any significance, and about 160 years since it was officially abolished.

[Luca Rescigno]

God, another "all Muslims hate Christianity because of this one incident" thread.

I suppose you're now going to say that you're so much better for being a Christian, and that you're not the same as those Muslim dogs?

[SVass]

Originally Posted by REB3L

A few years ago? That's an understatement, it's been a few hundred years since the Inquisition has been of any significance, and about 160 years since it was officially abolished.

The Spanish Inquisition ended in 1834 and the Roman Office -see following:
On July 21, 1542 Pope Paul III, with the Constitution Licet ab initio, established the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, staffed with cardinals and other officials whose task it was "to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines".

This body was renamed Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office in 1908 by Pope Pius X. It was changed to Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on December 7, 1965, at the end of the Second Vatican Council. In 1983, with the new code of canon law, "Sacred" was dropped from the names of Vatican Congregations. It has become the supervisory body of local Roman Inquisitions.

sam

[REB3L]

Originally Posted by SVass

The Spanish Inquisition ended in 1834 and the Roman Office -see following:
On July 21, 1542 Pope Paul III, with the Constitution Licet ab initio, established the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, staffed with cardinals and other officials whose task it was "to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines".

This body was renamed Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office in 1908 by Pope Pius X. It was changed to Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on December 7, 1965, at the end of the Second Vatican Council. In 1983, with the new code of canon law, "Sacred" was dropped from the names of Vatican Congregations. It has become the supervisory body of local Roman Inquisitions.

sam

Well, since you seem to be so good at internet research, would you care to tell me how many people were actually harmed as a result of the inquisition since 1834?

[SVass]

Originally Posted by REB3L

Well, since you seem to be so good at internet research, would you care to tell me how many people were actually harmed as a result of the inquisition since 1834?

The Dreyfus affair was well documented by Emile Zola. sam

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by REB3L

Well, since you seem to be so good at internet research, would you care to tell me how many people were actually harmed as a result of the inquisition since 1834?

Well, if we assume that Catholic doctrine is flawed in such a way that by attempting to 'correct' people's beliefs the inquisition is actually condemning people to hell then ...lots?

[mitchell_pgh]

Sad stuff...

[REB3L]

Originally Posted by SVass

The Dreyfus affair was well documented by Emile Zola. sam

Ah yes, anti-Semitism, the one thing that brings together Catholics and Muslims.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by SVass

Seems to me that Christians did the same thing at a similar age of their religion! (Inquisition) The office was abolished only a few years ago. So I don't feel sorry for them. sam

You are refering to the Spanish Inquisiition. There is a difference.

Besides, are you insinuating Iran is on the level of Spain in 1492?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by Luca Rescigno

God, another "all Muslims hate Christianity because of this one incident" thread.

WOW knee-jerk much? I never said any such thing.

I suppose you're now going to say that you're so much better for being a Christian, and that you're not the same as those Muslim dogs?

Am I BETTER than those people? Of course not.I am a sinner too.

However, I think I am better off because I am a Christian. But that is just MHO.

And for those who can't control themselves, this thread isn't about the Spanish Inquisition. Understand?

If you can find something relevent in say, within the past hundred years, feel free to bring it up.

BTW, the Inquisition was started because the VERY SAME stuff and laws that are in said article was happening at a grander scale.

It wasn't the Catholics that started it.


AND BTW Catholics doesn't = All of Christianity.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

And for those who can't control themselves, this thread isn't about the Spanish Inquisition. Understand?

If you can find something relevent in say, within the past hundred years, feel free to bring it up.

BTW, the Inquisition was started because the VERY SAME stuff and laws that are in said article was happening at a grander scale.

It wasn't the Catholics that started it.

AND BTW Catholics doesn't = All of Christianity.

First: It has only been a couple of years since they made the Dreyfus idiot a saint.
Second: The Roman Catholics were one of the sects (not the "catholics")
Third: Recently two protest(ants) suggested converting all of the heathen to stop terrorism and the second suggested a new crusade. Our chief ** said that he would get them dead or alive.
Fourth: My namesake ancestor (Weil) emigrated from Spain in 1391 according to a rumor to Weil der Stadt whence cometh the surname.
Anyway, I was trying to point out that Christianity is only slightly older than Islam and has a lot of growing to do. You will repeat all of the errors of the past if you do not study history (or cast the first stone...)
sam

[bubblewrap]

It's the 21st century.
Time for Islam to grow up and cut the ******** out.
Other than that, Islam is a sesspool that needs draining.
Or eradicating.

[Zimphire]

SVass when a Christian nation starts doing this, then you can start complaining.

I know Christians aren't perfect. But nothing in the Christian world is going on like this, and hasn't for along time.

So unless you want to talk about the subject at hand, go start another thread please.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

SVass when a Christian nation starts doing this, then you can start complaining.

I know Christians aren't perfect. But nothing in the Christian world is going on like this, and hasn't for along time.

It has been about ten years since a popular governor of Texas signed a law decreeing prison sentences for two males engaging in private sex. He also allowed execution of prisoners who had inadequate legal counsel. I know that technically, this is not a Christian nation; but, that governor is now our president and he claims the right to imprison persons without recourse to courts and to try them without a jury of their peers. By the way, the Ruanda massacres and the Serbia/Kosovo activities DID involve Christians murdering non Christians on a larger scale. sam

[Zimphire]

WOW HOLY BIZARRO COMPARISONS BATMAN!!


SVass if you have some valid comparisons, cool.

Until then, stop trolling because you are not only embarrassing yourself with said responses, I am embarrassed for you.

AND AGAIN I REPEAT if you don't want to talk about the discussion at hand, start your own thread.

Why you are dodging the article is beyond me.

Unless of course you are trying to make justifications for these actions (Its starting to look that way)

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

WOW HOLY BIZARRO COMPARISONS BATMAN!!


SVass if you have some valid comparisons, cool.

Until then, stop trolling because you are not only embarrassing yourself with said responses, I am embarrassed for you.

AND AGAIN I REPEAT if you don't want to talk about the discussion at hand, start your own thread.

Why you are dodging the article is beyond me.

Unless of course you are trying to make justifications for these actions (Its starting to look that way)

[christ]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

The very fact that there is a law against people that covert to Christianity says a lot about the culture itself.

Technically the law is against people converting from Islam, where they end up is a matter of indifference.

Can a Muslim go to heaven, Zimph?

[Zimphire]

That isn't up to me to decide.

[christ]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

That isn't up to me to decide.

Good answer. Evasive, but good.

Who does decide?

[Zimphire]

Evasive? No not at all.

And as far as the second question. Isn't that a bit obvious christ?

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by SVass

Seems to me that Christians did the same thing at a similar age of their religion!

True enough, the virulence of Islam has parallels to the crusades and inquisitions. Christianity had a six century head start. Based on the timeline, one could make the claim that Islam is in its dark ages. Unfortunately, the fact is that Islam has been and will very likely remain a radical faith. At an early point in Islamic history, the theologians officially closed the avenues of interpretation, meaning that the theology is completely suspended in time. The crusades and inquisitions had evil results, but they were originally waged in response to the threat posed by Islam to Europe. Islam was jihadist at that point and is jihadist in the present day. When the religion says that Jews and Christians are denizens of hell fire, it's pretty hard to challenge that dogma in the heart of the fervent believer.

[Zimphire]

The Crusades were a direct result of bad things done under than name of Islam even back then.

Boy I tell ya, Islam's dark ages sure have lasted a long time.

[bubblewrap]

Originally Posted by christ

Technically the law is against people converting from Islam, where they end up is a matter of indifference.

Can a Muslim go to heaven, Zimph?

No, they follow a false prophet.
And worship the whore of Babylon.

[christ]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

And as far as the second question [who decides who goes to heaven]. Isn't that a bit obvious christ?

Not to me.

Muslims seem to think that only Muslims are eligible for heaven, Christians seem to think that only Christians are eligible for heaven, Jews seem to think that only Jews are eligible for heaven.

I am wondering if that is an accurate reflection, but it seems that the simple question leads to sophistry rather than answers.

So I'll try again: Are Muslims eligible to go to heaven? (without conversion from Islam)

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

No, they follow a false prophet.

While I tend to agree, We don't know that for a fact. Even if signs point to yes.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by christ

Not to me.

Really? You have no clue, or even a guess as to who judges who goes to heaven?

None? Zero? Zip?

Or are you just being purposely dense so you can troll some more?

So I'll try again: Are Muslims eligible to go to heaven? (without conversion from Islam)

And I will answer you again.

It's not up to me. Ask they fellah that makes the decisions.

Don't like that answer? Too bad.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by Zimphire

The Crusades were a direct result of bad things done under than name of Islam even back then.

Several of the CRUSADES were an attempt to murder Jews and get loot from Constantinople. Admit that the Crusades had NO moral justification. They were similar to our current expedition in Iraq. sam

[von Wrangell]

Dear God. Some of you really need to get help.

1. There is only one basic requirement for going to heaven in Islam. Believe in God and do good deeds. Christians and Jews will according to Islam go to heaven.

2. You continue to blame Islam for the crusades. That is IMO disgusting and disingenuous. Europe was already "Christianised" at the time of the first official Crusades. That is why they sought to "free" the eastern Mediterranean. But they had already killed several in the north and in central Europe(Jews a special favourite to target). The Christian expansion had already caused conflicts in Eastern Europe with the Byzantine crammed in between causing all sorts of problem. To blame the Crusades on Islam is like I said both disgusting and disingenuous.


But to get back on topic. It would be good to have more information on this because it's impossible to know what led to this.

[bubblewrap]

Death in war is a free pass in according to the false prophet, right?
You're a "double muslim" in muslim heaven if you take someone with you.
This can be easily accomplished with the ever stylish explod-o-vest.
72 virgins not included.

Oh, we left out the moorish push through Europe.

[SVass]

Originally Posted by bubblewrap

Death in war is a free pass in according to the false prophet, right?
You're a "double muslim" in muslim heaven if you take someone with you.
This can be easily accomplished with the ever stylish explod-o-vest.
72 virgins not included.

Oh, we left out the moorish push through Europe.

Let us see. When the Christians recaptured Hungary from the Ottomans, they imported Catholics and gave them all of the trades! Then they imported Jews from Alasace. After the 30 years war (and murder of more Jews) they left the Protestants under control of their appointed landlords and wed to the land and gave Catholics the right to all import and export business. Jews were allowed one child per family. What you seem to forget is that demagogs of every group incite hatred of "them" in order to enhance their own popularity. There is very little difference between Sadaam Hussein and George Bush. sam

[von Wrangell]

Originally Posted by SVass

There is very little difference between Sadaam Hussein and George Bush. sam

I'm no fan of Bush but come on........

[demograph68]

Buddhism will always be the better religion IMHO.

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

2. You continue to blame Islam for the crusades.

Nope, not Islam. Islam cannot physically do those things.

Men started the crusades in the name of Islam however.

But to get back on topic. It would be good to have more information on this because it's impossible to know what led to this.

What led to this? He stopped being a Muslim, and they want to kill him.

Didn't you read?

[Zimphire]

Originally Posted by demograph68

Buddhism will always be the better religion IMHO.

I like pancakes with my syrup.

[demograph68]

What does that mean?

[Zimphire]

I thought we were posting random statements that had nothing to do with the topic.

*shrug*

[demograph68]

My assumption from it: **** happens if you're a christian in Iran.

[demograph68]

Pancakes are better with blueberries.

[Zimphire]

Yes indeed.

Why is that though? I thought Muslims were supposed to respect Christians. :/

[demograph68]

Some do and some don't. "Treat those as you would wish to be treated" is never 100% guaranteed.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by christ

Not to me.

Muslims seem to think that only Muslims are eligible for heaven, Christians seem to think that only Christians are eligible for heaven, Jews seem to think that only Jews are eligible for heaven.

I am wondering if that is an accurate reflection, but it seems that the simple question leads to sophistry rather than answers.

So I'll try again: Are Muslims eligible to go to heaven? (without conversion from Islam)

That is an incorrect view of Judaism. Our sages teach that the righteous of the nations also merit a place in the world to come. And only certain Christian sects have exclusionary views of the afterlife.

No one can deny, though, that the Koran says things (to parphrase) such as take no Jew or Christian as a friend, they are to be subjugated and humiliated, they are denizens of hellfire, o Muslim, there is a Jew behind me, take that rock and kill him. . . These are facts that simply cannot be obfuscated, whitewashed or denied. Go take a look at what it means to be a "dhimmi." And the claim is not that Muslims gain entry to heaven only through warfare, according to Islam; rather, death in war against the non-believer is billed as an instant ticket to that hedonistic heaven with the multitude of virgins.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by SVass

The Spanish Inquisition ended in 1834 and the Roman Office -see following:
On July 21, 1542 Pope Paul III, with the Constitution Licet ab initio, established the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, staffed with cardinals and other officials whose task it was "to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines".

This body was renamed Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office in 1908 by Pope Pius X. It was changed to Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith on December 7, 1965, at the end of the Second Vatican Council. In 1983, with the new code of canon law, "Sacred" was dropped from the names of Vatican Congregations. It has become the supervisory body of local Roman Inquisitions.

sam

The primary point of this office is to define heretical teachings. Heresy never stopped, half of Catholics are heretics . It's a good thing people aren't still being punished for heresy.

[Zimphire]

No, just conversion to anything but Islam.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by christ

Not to me.

Muslims seem to think that only Muslims are eligible for heaven, Christians seem to think that only Christians are eligible for heaven, Jews seem to think that only Jews are eligible for heaven.

I am wondering if that is an accurate reflection, but it seems that the simple question leads to sophistry rather than answers.

So I'll try again: Are Muslims eligible to go to heaven? (without conversion from Islam)

No.

Moslems think that non-Moslems ('the people of the book') can go to heaven.
Catholics believe that God's infinite mercy can save anyone. The limits of the Catholic Church don't stop at the physical 'I'm a Catholic', so they believe.
Jews don't necessarily believe in heaven as such, but most do. Anyone who follows the laws of Noah can reach heaven.

[undotwa]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Dear God. Some of you really need to get help.

1. There is only one basic requirement for going to heaven in Islam. Believe in God and do good deeds. Christians and Jews will according to Islam go to heaven.[/b]

True.

2. You continue to blame Islam for the crusades. That is IMO disgusting and disingenuous. Europe was already "Christianised" at the time of the first official Crusades. That is why they sought to "free" the eastern Mediterranean. But they had already killed several in the north and in central Europe(Jews a special favourite to target). The Christian expansion had already caused conflicts in Eastern Europe with the Byzantine crammed in between causing all sorts of problem. To blame the Crusades on Islam is like I said both disgusting and disingenuous.

I'm not going to blame anyone or any faith but the Crusades were primarily a defence mechanism against the onslaught of Islamic expansion. The Moslems afterall had almost completely overrun Spain and were marching into Southern France; The Eastern Roman Empire suffered defeat after defeat from Moslems; Egypt and Turkey already conquered etc.