[pensive]

Yeah, I'm a regular. I'm not posting under that account for obvious reasons.

So here's the story:

It's now six hours after she packed up and left, one day after Thanksgiving, eight years after we married, thirteen after we first dated. I'm brokenhearted, but determined to see this through to a happy resolution (whatever that will be).

The background, in not-so-short strokes:

1. We started dating in college. We're both somewhat melancholic types, and each had our ups and downs; we both helped each other tremendously through all of our trials.

2. We got married soon after college, on the young side for our peers, but far from the youngest. We've had lots of fun together, traveling far and wide, enjoying arts and culture, or just being silly.

3. She had a period of misery for several years when she felt trapped in a career she hated; I helped (maybe not enough, but definitely helped) her pull through that. She's now blessed with success in the career she always wanted.

4. Throughout all of this, we've both grown up and deepened as people. She's from an emotive, arguing-makes-us-closer kind of family; mine is more reserved -- fun-loving and always together, but rarely discussing our emotions openly. I've learned from her the great value in binding tightly, sharing openly, and staying there to hash something out. I think she's learned from me how a recognition that we aren't the same as our parents can be freeing and fulfilling.

5. About three years ago, I went through a very dark period of depression and hopelessness. I pretty much failed out of my graduate program, lied to her about it until I had no choice, and put a tremendous strain on both her admiration for me, my own well-being, and our joy. Her devotion to me, fighting to get me through to a better place, supporting me as I went into therapy and tried to put my pieces back together, touched me more deeply than anything in my life ever has.

6. After leaving my program, and still under lots of support from her and therapy, I started a new job, which has gone very well. I'm now happy, well-balanced, successful, and hopeful. Things have been good for about a year now. She started talking about wanting to start a family, and we've been looking to buy a house. Up until about six weeks ago...

...which is right about where things fall apart.

(continued next post)

[pensive]

She started getting sad and moody about then. Maybe a little short with me, but not argumentative. Seemingly just sad.
Then, late last week, she said you know, maybe we shouldn't be together.

WHAT?

The narratives:

Her narrative would (I think) go something like this:

I love `pensive' deeply, and know that he does me. But I've always felt a certain loneliness in my relationship with him, a sense that he doesn't know and understand me in the ways I crave to be. The prospect of starting a family with him leaves me scared and cold, worrying that I'll be unhappy and unfulfilled, and trapped. I think it would be a terrible mistake for me to be drawn into that without a frank appraisal of whether we're really right for each other. So, I'm moving out, for a few weeks anyway, to get some clarity on whether I'm unhappy being with him, or just unhappy but not about him, or what.

And mine is this:

About six weeks ago, we went on a trip for two weeks -- had, I think, a wonderful time together. Later I learned she stopped taking her antidepressants cold turkey during the trip. The talk of kids and houses understandably makes her nervous (as it does me! as it ought!). And this time of year is the anniversary of the death of a parent, which went almost unremarked upon by her family this year, which put her in a terrible funk. By steps, in recent weeks, she's slid into a deepening depression.

...and has somehow latched onto the idea that if she leaves me, all these things will be better -- the loneliness with me and her family and her friends, the being scared of the big stuff of life, etc. I agree that I can be emotionally out of tune with her, but I don't think particularly worse or better than any two human beings who are close friends and lovers. To me this whole thing feels like an error -- that she's scared and depressed, and is just looking for something that she can pull on to make it better.

The situation now

- As of six hours ago, she's rented a place for a couple of weeks.
- We're going to meet again in a few days, to talk things over -- after I see my therapist, and before she sees hers.
- I've talked to her family some as this has been brewing. They, for better or worse, agree vehemently with me that she's making a terrible mistake, is dumping unresolved issues from elsewhere onto me, etc.
- I've talked to no one else, don't have many close confidantes apart from her and my therapist, and am lonely and scared.

What I want

I do want us to be together.

Mind you, I can imagine a life for each of us apart. I think I'd be relatively okay, considering. I'm fairly young, have a good career, an improving emotional depth and maturity, and could build a life again. And for her, I'm a little more worried whether she could really shake out of this melancholia, but sometimes changing things, even if they're not the important roots of things, might just shake them up enough to give her another chance.

BUT, it would come at a terrible price. We have a long and rich history together. We know each other better than anyone else does. We love and admire each other -- both! still! now! So I really do think we will both be happier if we can be together.

The advice I'm asking for

Is concrete: What should I do?

Should I give her every blessing for this separation, both from genuine goodwill, and in the hopes that the reality of it will allow her to consider her options carefully? And that actually, truly being apart from me -- rather than whatever portraits she's painted -- will rebalance her idea of whether that will fix things for her? Or should I emphasize that this is her choice, one I accept but bitterly, and would counsel against?

Should I already now start setting things up in my head as though she may be gone forever? Imagining and building my own independent life?

Should I make her jealous? This is advice from her family (!!), which I wouldn't even know how to start doing. Would this emphasize for her the cost of her choice -- or give her something to latch onto and be resentful of?



Whew! That was long. Thanks for just being there as a space to speak into, I guess. And thanks for any words or thoughts you might have.

[Big Mac]

Sad situation. I say you sit down and analyze with her the pros and cons of staying together. If you both think it's worth maintaining the relationship then bring in a professional to help further work through your issues. But if she really wants out, you're probably better off letting it end. If she isn't mature or intelligent enough to appreciate what the two of you have together, you're probably just going to run into this problem again down the line if you try to hold it together. Bringing kids into the world with that kind of instability as a couple would surely be a very bad decision.

[pensive]

^^ up there. "narratives"

[imitchellg5]

Don't make her jealous on purpose. But make sure that you can get the gravity of the situation across; that you two have a full life in front of you, why stop now? Don't consider her gone forever. She must be going through something else very hard, the best you can do is help her. Maybe temporary distance will be a good thing, but don't lose hope.

[Laminar]

Dakar?

[wolfen]

My wife and I have separated twice, for 6 month stretches. We are happily married 17 years, now. Some people just need to get away to deal with their ****. And clearly you both have **** to deal with.

Between 7 and 10 years, most couples figure out they have to change (and stop expecting the other person to change) for the thing to continue. I would only accept the end of the relationship after you've defined exactly what changes are needed to make it work, and identified one another's willingness to make them. Until then, it's just confusion. Hopefully she's mature enough to see this.And if each person is willing to make changes, then it will work. If not, then cherish the memories. The primary questions are "What are you willing to accept? Can you accept her depression? Can you accept you may need to stop doing things that make it worse? Are you willing to remove the pressure of your expectations?"

If your wife is unhappy, it isn't your fault. But if you're not doing what you need to do to make the relationship work, that's another matter altogether. That logic works for both of you. Reading between the lines, I get the feeling you put a lot of pressure on her somehow, or at least that's the way she feels, and you are not doing all you can to grow beyond that dynamic. (Yes, I could throw ideas at her, but I'm not talking with her atm). I could be wrong, but we are on the Internet, where opinions with keyboards reign.

[shifuimam]

Getting off antidepressants cold turkey was a bad, bad, bad, very bad idea unless she did it under the guidance of her doctor/psychiatrist.

Most antidepressants in the SSRI/SNRI class create a certain level of clinical dependency, and going off them without warning can seriously screw with you, both physically and mentally.

Don't try to make her jealous or anything! Call her doctor/psychiatrist and see if you can find out whether or not she's supposed to have cut off her medication so abruptly. If she's getting increasingly and noticeably depressed, the last thing she needs to be doing is cutting off her antidepressants.

Depression and related mental illnesses can make people do insane, stupid, out-of-character things. Without knowing your wife or your personal situation, it sounds to me like a big part of what she's going through is a result of quitting her medication before she should have.

[Andy8]

Space is a good thing.

Living apart does not mean being apart.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Sounds to me like she'll end up coming back... and sounds like that's a good thing for both of you.

But too many meds and too many therapists for my liking

Good luck! Hope it all works out well for both of you...

greg

[Buckaroo]

I get the impression that you are both very intelligent people. The only advise I can give at this time is be patient. Don't push her into making a decision. Be yourself and be patient with her decisions. There is nothing you can do to make her change her mind. She has to realize what is best for her.

I wish you the best of luck.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

. . .Call her doctor/psychiatrist and see if you can find out whether or not she's supposed to have cut off her medication so abruptly.

Be careful with this. She might consider this as trying to meddle into her affairs. Put yourself in her shoes, would you like the person you're having problems with calling your doctors?

[pixelbaker]

Give her time. After a while together, sometimes things get confusing, especially on the cusp of a major commitment such as having children. Find out what exactly it is that she's unhappy about, if you have anything to do with it, if it's something that you can change, if it's something you even should change. I also see no harm in beginning to think of yourself as an independent person. There is nothing wrong with preparing yourself mentally for the worst while still hoping for the best. Couple's counseling might be a good idea if it's the relationship itself that she feels is lacking.

Definitely do not make her jealous, unless your goal is to create a whole messy set of trust issues, bad feelings, side-choosing of family and friends, etc... Worst. Idea. Ever. Slap whoever advised it.

Tell her you love her. Tell her you want to make it work, even if that means time apart. If there is a possibility for her, she'll see it and you will begin the process of repair. If not, it was not because you didn't try and perhaps truly are better off apart.

[voodoo]

Relax.. take it easy. I know it is tempting to go through a whole box of Oreo's right now, but well..

Don't just take one day at a time, take one minute at a time, one second at a time.

Some fights you can't win, just make sure this isn't one of them before starting it.

Above all. Don't panic. Relax.

[downinflames68]

Give up. Don't call her. Avoid her. Women are all whores so it's time to upgrade to a hotter, younger one anyway. Sound harsh but whatever. Anything you do to TRY to get her back will only make her want you less.

[Stogieman]

Hahaha. Got here just in time.


**Grabs a bag of popcorn.**

[Sealobo]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Give up. Don't call her. Avoid her. Women are all whores so it's time to upgrade to a hotter, younger one anyway. Sound harsh but whatever. Anything you do to TRY to get her back will only make her want you less.

you're pathetic. why impose your loser mentality to someone who's asking for help here?

[OreoCookie]

My advice is to not try to do something stupid (e. g. trying to make her jealous) and to give her some space. When you talk to her next time, declare yourself: bring the point across that you're willing to work things out, how much you love her and if it's space she needs that you'll give it to her.

I can hardly say that I know anything, but my impression from what you've written is that she might not be sure whether she could have faith in your abilities to have a family with her. Perhaps she needed someone to lean on during your episodes of depression and you weren't there, you needed help yourself.

This is all speculation, but I would not get too hung up on it even if you think it may have some true to it: you can't change the past and it seems hers is troubled as well. You have the same right to ask for help as she does, so don't feel bad about it, that's the way your life went. Don't overthink what you can fix or should have fixed, it sounds as if she is the one with the problems this time and it's up to her to deal with them herself -- and if it is just telling you what she expects of you.

What should you do in the long run? Well, there is no fixed period after which people have to move on and I wouldn't throw the towel just yet. Take the time to define what you want from life (other than `her') and to charge your battery. Go running, get in shape. Pick up the old hobby you haven't had time to delve into lately. If she comes back and gives it a second shot, you'll be more centered and focussed. If she hasn't declared herself after a few months, I'd talk to her again and ask about your future. If she says `I'm not sure means,' it almost always means `no.'

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by pixelbaker 

Definitely do not make her jealous, unless your goal is to create a whole messy set of trust issues, bad feelings, side-choosing of family and friends, etc... Worst. Idea. Ever. Slap whoever advised it.

Tell her you love her. Tell her you want to make it work, even if that means time apart. If there is a possibility for her, she'll see it and you will begin the process of repair. If not, it was not because you didn't try and perhaps truly are better off apart.

This.

Stand tall with open arms. Be a rock for her.

[Phileas]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

This.

Stand tall with open arms. Be a rock for her.

This.

And can somebody please drive out to see Rob and give the self pitying ass a good kick in the aforementioned?

[pensive]

Thanks for all the help, guys. I appreciate the kind and thoughtful words.

I'm going to work along the contours of most of your advice --
- first, being decent to myself, getting exercise and a life I would want.
- second, being decent to her, accepting and supportive, while giving her the space she apparently needs now.
- third, meeting with her and her therapist (either together or separately) to talk about how to help her best.

[nonhuman]

Looks like you mostly got the all the advice I was going to offer out of this already. One thing you might consider is couples counseling along with the individual therapy you're already getting. Let your individual therapists look after your individual well being and find a third 'neutral' person who specializes in couples to help you with your collective issues.

I do think you can take something valuable from Rob's advice however, and remember that you need to look to your own happiness. It's not selfish to pursue your own personal happiness, because how can you possibly maintain a successful, happy relationship if you're not happy in the other aspects of your life? If you're happy apart from your relationship, then you'll bring that happiness into it.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Getting off antidepressants cold turkey was a bad, bad, bad, very bad idea unless she did it under the guidance of her doctor/psychiatrist.

Most antidepressants in the SSRI/SNRI class create a certain level of clinical dependency, and going off them without warning can seriously screw with you, both physically and mentally.

Don't try to make her jealous or anything! Call her doctor/psychiatrist and see if you can find out whether or not she's supposed to have cut off her medication so abruptly. If she's getting increasingly and noticeably depressed, the last thing she needs to be doing is cutting off her antidepressants.

Depression and related mental illnesses can make people do insane, stupid, out-of-character things. Without knowing your wife or your personal situation, it sounds to me like a big part of what she's going through is a result of quitting her medication before she should have.

Quitting anti-depression medication without consulting a professional first can be a fatal mistake. I thought I was ready to stop taking mine about a year ago and within a few weeks, I was back to having the most morbid and sad thoughts. Luckily, I was aware of what was happening and started the meds up again; I was fine within a few days.

I would advise the OP to see a professional about his situation. Might get some insight from a non-involved third party (other than the folks on this forum).

[Big-C]

I have to agree with the staggeringly bad idea of stopping your medications cold-turkey. That can artificially change a person's point of view and/or mood, causing her to make the mistake of blaming you for any unresolved issues she might have.

My wife takes prozak(?) and when she was getting the dosage right, she was a different person. Once that got straightened out, everything's been great for years and years.

I would focus on getting the medications back in check because they could be the root of any other issues. If she's on them and is still unhappy, then I'd start worrying about how to fix/evaluate the relationship.

Good luck.

[lexapro]

Couples therapy. Have you ever thought of it?

And do not stop taking me for any reason! (Look at my username).

[downinflames68]

Seriously. Move. On. Women are ****ing bitches that don't make any sense, enjoy them when they like you but never get too attached.

[olePigeon]

Have you thought about Scientology?

[SSharon]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Seriously. Move. On. Women are ****ing bitches that don't make any sense, enjoy them when they like you but never get too attached.

I usually agree with you and support many of your rants. I even feel sympathetic with respect to the recent changes in your life. But, do you honestly feel like your post will help the OP? I'm not asking if you believe that what you are saying is the truth. I'm asking if you think it needs to be said in the context of this thread.

OP, good luck. You sound smart enough to find the good advice in this thread while filtering out the noise.

[freudling]

Women™.

[PB2K]

Pensive must be Turdtle-t because a new Lounge thread can't be long without his post

Th eprize is mine

and whats up with all these Lounge "how am i" threads nowadays?

[downinflames68]

I'm saying.... the SMARTEST, and BEST thing to do, is to realize that you, the OP, are a worthwhile person, deserving of love, deserving of being a great person and having a great life, despite your stupid ex; that whore is NOT worth feeling shitty about.

What I feel will help is realizing you can exist independently, and be successful independently, which is the ONLY THING THAT WILL REMOTELY MAKE HER WANT YOU BACK.

Don't give a **** abotu her. Never even be mean to her. Just act like "whatever" around her. Anything else will result in "fail".

[auto_immune]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

I'm saying.... the SMARTEST, and BEST thing to do, is to realize that you, the OP, are a worthwhile person, deserving of love, deserving of being a great person and having a great life, despite your stupid ex; that whore is NOT worth feeling shitty about.

What I feel will help is realizing you can exist independently, and be successful independently, which is the ONLY THING THAT WILL REMOTELY MAKE HER WANT YOU BACK.

Don't give a **** abotu her. Never even be mean to her. Just act like "whatever" around her. Anything else will result in "fail".

You are such an expert on the subject of relationships and women - he really should take your advice.


Yeah, right....

[OreoCookie]

There are some nuggets of truth embedded in that bitter post: you should never ever, ever beg for her to come back to you. Then she won't for sure. And Rob puts emphasis on personal independence and building up inner strength.

[BlueSky]

Desperation Doesn't Work™

The sooner you let her go, the sooner you'll see that she either will or will never come back. That's the best you can hope for.

[BadKosh]

Perhaps it IS time to put a period and move on. Sounds like the Depression thing might be a reoccurring issue. She is depressed, and realized that changing location and adding more responsibilities is the wrong direction. Add in the season and gloomy winter time approaching as to why she decided things the way she did.

I moved in with the "woman of my dreams" 5 years ago this weekend. A year later I had serious doubts that our relationship would last. A year later I was unhappy and so ws she. We became distant. I didn't want to come home from work because she'd be there. July 31, 2007 I said it was time to "put a period and move on" - a quote from judge Judy which she watched, along with Jerry Springer instead of doing any housework, or even walking her own dog. I lived and slept in my home office for 2 months while she piled up boxes of her crap and finally moved out. I've had lots less stress since she left. I hope she's happy. I am reminded of the Tee-Shirt that has a picture of a hot babe and the caption "no matter how hot she is, there is always someone who's sick of her crap." Very true.

[Doofy]

...

Originally Posted by Magua

Magua understands that the white man is a dog to his women.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by auto_immune 

You are such an expert on the subject of relationships and women - he really should take your advice.


Yeah, right....

Look dude, you go try this next time a girl dumps you. Go after her. Call her a lot. Try to make things work. Tell her you need her. You will TOTALLY FAIL.

The ONLY, ONLY way that you can get her back is by showing your independence. By moving on. By being happy, and successful. Women do not want people who need them, because they don't have to work for it. The guy who comes in and doesn't care, but is happy and fun to be around, that is what they want.

But go please, try your way.

[Captain Obvious]

Do this


And OP, don't breed with a girl who needs meds or does drugs every day (yes, even pot) to feel/act normal.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by downinflames68 

Seriously. Move. On. Women are ****ing bitches that don't make any sense, enjoy them when they like you but never get too attached.

Interestingly, if you don't limit this to women, I think you've just restated the first two of the Buddha's Noble Truths with more profanity.

[downinflames68]

Honestly I did read a lot of buddhist stuff this summer; I'm currently dating a gorgeous lebanese girl that I know won't work out, but I'm just enjoying her day by day. Just sorta... no point to making long term plans if people change on you, you might as well just live in the moment.

[kmkkid]

I find, well, with men anyways - is that if you call them 100+ times a day crying and sobbing, they will take you back, at least for a little longer

[ShortcutToMoncton]

l o l

[shifuimam]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious 

And OP, don't breed with a girl who needs meds or does drugs every day (yes, even pot) to feel/act normal.

Sorry, but I find this incredibly offensive.

Antidepressants are not even remotely the same as using recreational drugs to deal with life. The latter is used to hide from reality, whereas the former, many times, allows you to function as a normal human being.

Being mortally depressed on a daily basis isn't normal. There is nothing wrong with turning to the necessary assistance of medication to allow oneself to function normally and return to a life worth living.

While it's possible that mental illness is genetic, I don't think it's inevitable.

[msuper69]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Sorry, but I find this incredibly offensive.

Antidepressants are not even remotely the same as using recreational drugs to deal with life. The latter is used to hide from reality, whereas the former, many times, allows you to function as a normal human being.

Being mortally depressed on a daily basis isn't normal. There is nothing wrong with turning to the necessary assistance of medication to allow oneself to function normally and return to a life worth living.

While it's possible that mental illness is genetic, I don't think it's inevitable.

Agreed.

Heroin or crack - bad.

Anti-depressants - good.

Pot - ocasional recreational use (ala alcohol) not so bad.

[downinflames68]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Sorry, but I find this incredibly offensive.

Antidepressants are not even remotely the same as using recreational drugs to deal with life. The latter is used to hide from reality, whereas the former, many times, allows you to function as a normal human being.

Being mortally depressed on a daily basis isn't normal. There is nothing wrong with turning to the necessary assistance of medication to allow oneself to function normally and return to a life worth living.

While it's possible that mental illness is genetic, I don't think it's inevitable.

No offense but I find the occasional joint also a way to function as a normal human being.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Antidepressants are not even remotely the same as using recreational drugs to deal with life.

These are just labels. They don't tell us about the nature of the thing. Some doctors actually do recommend marijuana as an antidepressant, so they must be pretty close to the same thing.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

The latter is used to hide from reality, whereas the former, many times, allows you to function as a normal human being.

They are both used to manipulate your mind to work in a way that is more palatable to you. I'm just as in touch with reality when I'm high — I simply feel better about it and can approach it from a different angle. Other things that people use to achieve similar effects as mild recreational drugs are chocolate, hugs, music, dancing and exercise. Do these constitute "hiding from reality" just because they alter your brain chemistry?

And CO is right that people who are truly dependent on "recreational" drugs to function as a normal human being are sick much like people who use more mainstream antidepressants — possibly even more so if they're turning to illegal means to solve their problems. This is actually a known clinical fact, that people will self-medicate with street drugs. I don't agree with his conclusion (being chemically dependent doesn't negate any other worth you have as a person), but he's right on that count.

[downinflames68]

In short, find a really hot chick to get blazed with. See what happens.

[OreoCookie]

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Sorry, but I find this incredibly offensive.

Perhaps, but he has a point. Very often, depression or other psychological illnesses have a hereditary component and if you want to start a family with someone (or even live with that someone), having a disease of this sort is similar to having another disability: it's something you need to take into account when making important decisions. And it's definitely an argument against a relationship or taking that relationship to another level. Depending on the type of mental illness, it could be the physiological analog of a mild diabetes or a mild case of asthma. Or (if you think of borderline syndrome or severe cases of eating disorders) the analog could be a crippling disability that prevents someone to function normally in every day tasks.

I'm not saying people should not get in relationships with people who have psychological problems -- especially if they are treated properly. I'm saying that a mental illness can be a deciding factor in making or breaking a relationship.

Originally Posted by shifuimam 

Antidepressants are not even remotely the same as using recreational drugs to deal with life. The latter is used to hide from reality, whereas the former, many times, allows you to function as a normal human being.

Antidepressants have a severe influence on how you view life and very often have nasty side effects. Although I cannot speak from personal experience, I've seen the effects first-hand. Other `recreational' drugs can easily be used in medical treatments (e. g. Marihuana or various pain killers) and a clear distinction between the two is not possible. The context makes the difference.

[bandamson]

hi its really such a nice and interesting story u have to care your health

Wrinkle Cream
The best wrinkle cream today is no easy task with so many to choose from and the daily bombardment of advertising. It's essential to understand the causes of wrinkles and aging in order to get the best product.

[Spheric Harlot]

best spam ever!

Somebody edit out the link but let it stand.