Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

moowriece · Mar 23, 2003, 07:04 AM

Take a look what the yankees are doing to the people of Basra. A clean humanly war, mr.Bush and Blair? I hope your conscience can take this.

More on http://www.aljazeera.net/news/arabic/2003/3/3-22-26.htm

Nicko · Mar 23, 2003, 07:10 AM

yea this whole thing is f$ucked up, and the worst is yet to come. They are being liberated all right, liberated from their lives.

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 07:18 AM

We all knew that it would happen. The bad news is that Aljazeera showed it. They took a big responsability.

The US could loose the war on terror because of this kind of images.

moowriece · Mar 23, 2003, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:
We all knew that it would happen. The bad news is that Aljazeera showed it. They took a big responsability.

The US could loose the war on terror because of this kind of images.

Aljazeera has the guts to show the REAL face of war, instead of the glamorous PR image US networks are trying to bring across.

War is not a game with smart bombs and rockets. US and UK troops are killing Iraqi civilians and soldiers right now. If you choose for killing, you have to live with the suffering you have inflicted on the Iraqi people.

Nicko · Mar 23, 2003, 07:28 AM

ironic?

sign of the devil:

kvm_mkdb · Mar 23, 2003, 07:34 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:
We all knew that it would happen. The bad news is that Aljazeera showed it. They took a big responsability.

The US could loose the war on terror because of this kind of images.

Dude, with this indiscriminate use of cluster bombs we are just making new terrorists (besides being terrorists ourselves).

Not only the media doesn't show this kind of things here, they are telling people the Iraqis are happy about it (see the other posts).

kvm_mkdb · Mar 23, 2003, 07:37 AM

It has become reality again.

moki · Mar 23, 2003, 07:38 AM

Originally posted by moowriece:
War is not a game with smart bombs and rockets. US and UK troops are killing Iraqi civilians and soldiers right now. If you choose for killing, you have to live with the suffering you have inflicted on the Iraqi people.

Like these guys?

from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/internatio...919627,00.html

'You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious' 'I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand'

James Meek in Safwan
Saturday March 22, 2003
The Guardian

Yesterday afternoon a truck drove down a side road in the Iraqi town of Safwan, laden with rugs and furniture. Booty or precious possessions? In a day of death, joy and looting, it was hard to know.

As the passengers spotted European faces, one boy grinned and put his thumb up. The other nervously waved a white flag. The mixed messages defined the moment: Thank you. We love you. Please don't kill us.

US marines took Safwan at about 8am yesterday. There was no rose-petal welcome, no cheering crowd, no stars and stripes.

Afraid that the US and Britain will abandon them, the people of Safwan did not touch the portraits and murals of Saddam Hussein hanging everywhere. It was left to the marines to tear them down. It did not mean there was not heartfelt gladness at the marines' arrival. Ajami Saadoun Khlis, whose son and brother were executed under the Saddam regime, sobbed like a child on the shoulder of the Guardian's Egyptian translator. He mopped the tears but they kept coming.

"You just arrived," he said. "You're late. What took you so long? God help you become victorious. I want to say hello to Bush, to shake his hand. We came out of the grave."

"For a long time we've been saying: 'Let them come'," his wife, Zahara, said. "Last night we were afraid, but we said: 'Never mind, as long as they get rid of him, as long as they overthrow him, no problem'." Their 29-year-old son was executed in July 2001, accused of harbouring warm feelings for Iran.

kvm_mkdb · Mar 23, 2003, 07:42 AM

Originally posted by moki:
Thank you. We love you. Please don't kill us.

The Sheik · Mar 23, 2003, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by moowriece:
Aljazeera has the guts to show the REAL face of war, instead of the glamorous PR image US networks are trying to bring across.

War is not a game with smart bombs and rockets. US and UK troops are killing Iraqi civilians and soldiers right now. If you choose for killing, you have to live with the suffering you have inflicted on the Iraqi people.

Developer · Mar 23, 2003, 09:26 AM

Basra

jckalen · Mar 23, 2003, 09:33 AM

I guess the US interprets one of our old mottos (live free or die) to mean live free or we will kill you. And WE used to say "Don't tread on me" when outside gov'ts attacked us. Back in our earliest days as a union, the British believed they were doing right by preventing our country from developing on it's own.

moki · Mar 23, 2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Developer:

Basra

Hey Developer, where are the pictures of the people in Iraq that Saddam killed/tortured? I assume since you're taking a humanitarian stance, you abhor that just as much... so post 'em. Let's see the horrible things Saddam did as well (the difference being, of course, that Saddam killed civilians on purpose, the US has been careful to try not to).

Well, as long as we're posting pictures, here are some as well:

jckalen · Mar 23, 2003, 09:53 AM

Excellent question moki. Where ARE those pictures? I have only heard of these things on conservative talk radio - never seen even sanitized versions on the evening news. I did see them gas a dog once but I think we've killed some animals in our day too. But, of course, we do it in under the guise of "scientific research".

moki · Mar 23, 2003, 09:56 AM

Originally posted by jckalen:
Excellent question moki. Where ARE those pictures? I have only heard of these things on conservative talk radio - never seen even sanitized versions on the evening news. I did see them gas a dog once but I think we've killed some animals in our day too. But, of course, we do it in under the guise of "scientific research".

There are certainly some pictures out there, but you know, Iraq being an oppressive dictatorship and all, it isn't like CNN is allowed to roam around while Saddam and his henchmen committed these attrocities. Meanwhile the US is confident enough in their moral imperative that troops are welcomed into the war zone.

If you're going to attempt to claim that these things didn't happen... oiy. Just look on Amnesty International for some lovely stats on what Saddam has done: http://www.amnesty.org/

Developer · Mar 23, 2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by moki:
Hey Developer, where are the pictures of the people in Iraq that Saddam killed/tortured? I assume since you're taking a humanitarian stance, you abhor that just as much... so post 'em. Let's see the horrible things Saddam did as well.

Ah, that old-testamentarian logic again. Those images are in that other thread where they are on topic. We seemed to have other means to prevent Hussein from doing that for the last 15 years, so I don't see why we had to fall back to war right now.

Anyway, the gassed Kurds threatened the integrity of Iraq, so Hussein acted in best western interest when he massacred them. Since Iraq's integrity is a defined goal of this war, the new Iraqi puppet regime will face the same problem. It remains to be seem if the Kurds will be better off.

jckalen · Mar 23, 2003, 10:13 AM

Regarding photos of Iraquis waving in apparent support our troops:

"I tip my hat to the new revolution
Take a bow for the new constitution
Smile and grin at the changes all around me
Pick up my guitar & play
Just like yesterday
Then I get on my knees & pray
We don't get fooled again"
(probably not an exact quote - I forget some of the words)
Pete Townshend

theolein · Mar 23, 2003, 10:31 AM

The full page in Arabic from Al Jazeera

Andrew, your preference for believing that the US can only do good is matched by those that believe that the US can only do bad, and both have one fatal flaw: That is not the world we live in.

Take a look at this reasoning: Those images can fit in very well with one another and are not mutually exclusive. That is a war being fought in that country and real bullets, missiles and bombs are being used. Those things are designed to kill people. That particularly gruesome picture of a boy with his head destroyed is a common thing to ALL WARS, no matter where they are fought or by whom. The reason you don't see images like this very often lies squarely with media executives and politicians. Images like this are not likely to be shown very often in American media because the Americans still blame the media for losing the Vietnam war for them and there is a lot of pressure to make this war seem as clean as some military excercise.

Sadly however, I think the very act of censoring (your personal private censorship included by showing grateful Shiites in order to show how "good" this war is and to counter the original images) is a very self defeating excercise. If you would have noticed, the images were shown by Al-Jazeera, the one source of credibility to your average Arab in an Arab world of state censored media. It is images like these that convince your average Arab that fighting the USA in the form of Al Qaida is justified. When Al Qaida grows and terrorism increases, it is your average American/European/Australian that asks themselves why this organisation and others like it are so popular in that part of the world. Not many in the USA saw those images, and images speak a thousand words, as the saying goes.

The reverse is probably likewise true, in that the images of the Shiites welcoming the US/UK troops are probably not shown all that much in the Arab world.

Fixed ideas, it seems, are not a monopoly anywhere.

jckalen · Mar 23, 2003, 10:42 AM

Did you mean this article Andrew?

Iraq: 'Shock and Awe' Attack - Amnesty International Seeks Urgent Clarification of Measures to Protect Civilians

In response to the start of a large-scale attack on Baghdad, a city of 5 million people, Amnesty International is seeking urgent clarification from the US and UK governments of the measures taken to protect against civilian casualties. The organization cautioned the US and UK that under international humanitarian law, an attack must be cancelled or suspended if it becomes apparent that it is causing disproportionate loss of civilian life. - 21/03/03

Probably not. IMHO, one man's "shock and awe" is another man's "terrorism" - it all depends on whose soil the blood spills on.

theolein · Mar 23, 2003, 10:50 AM

Originally posted by jckalen:
Did you mean this article Andrew?

Probably not. IMHO, one man's "shock and awe" is another man's "terrorism" - it all depends on whose soil the blood spills on.

Exactly.

The Al Qaida "shock and awe" in 2001 in NY, was terrorism... to me and most of us here, but to others elsewhere it was "holy shock and awe" or some other sh!t. It works both ways.

dillerX · Mar 23, 2003, 10:52 AM

I must say. This war has brought out the idiot in most all of you. On BOTH sides.

Before you all go about posting "snapshots" and "articles" from so-called "fair" sources, (And no, Al Jazeera is not a balanced source. For christsakes, they are still showing pictures of idiots looking for a downed pilot in the weeds) please do us all a favor and think about what you are about to post.

People are going to die. WAR IS HELL. One thing is certain. One side is trying a whole hell of a lot harder to prevent needless deaths than the other. I'll let you figure out which side that is.

PS: For those of you starting posts, please do us all a favor and use some common sense. If it is a rumor, and least let us know in the topic, like [RUMOR] or [FACT] etc. /soapbox

jckalen · Mar 23, 2003, 11:00 AM

More from Amnesty:

Amnesty International's position on military intervention in Iraq

Amnesty International wants to see a dramatic improvement in Iraq's deplorable record of systematic human rights violations. Grave abuses of human rights are taking place today in all regions of the world. We cannot choose to be outraged about some situations while ignoring others. The international community should pursue solutions which lead to improvement in the human rights situation in Iraq, not further deterioration, needless loss of life and increased suffering.

Amnesty International neither condemned nor supported the US-led military campaign in Afghanistan and our position is the same with respect to Iraq.

While our general policy is never to comment on whether the use of military force is justified or appropriate, we do comment on whether human rights and humanitarian law are being respected in the way a conflict is fought. We also oppose supply or sale of weapons, military equipment and military training to any government forces or armed group likely to be involved in human rights violations.

Amnesty International calls on all governments and armed groups to ensure that the protection of civilians is paramount and that the human rights and humanitarian impact of any actions are carefully considered. We ask that due consideration be given to exploring all diplomatic and judicial avenues.

I don't think they are totally on our side here.

scaught · Mar 23, 2003, 11:01 AM

yes. you cant just post pictures without any sort of article related to them. when were the pictures taken? what were the circumstances?

to automatically assume they were deaths caused by american soldiers is a little naive, no?

oh. while we're posting images, heres another one.

from the nytimes.com website. caption is from nytimes too.

"A U.S. medic tended to a wounded Iraqi prisoner early Friday after marines took control of an oil pumping station in southern Iraq."

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by scaught:
"A U.S. medic tended to a wounded Iraqi prisoner early Friday after marines took control of an oil pumping station in southern Iraq."

Nice. Why was this guy wounded ?!

scaught · Mar 23, 2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:

Nice. Why was this guy wounded ?!

what does it matter? he certainly looks like hes not having any human rights violations levied against him.

are you assuming some soldier shot the guy or roughed him up so they could keep the medic occupied? did the medic pay off some soldier to beat his ass so he could fix him up and guarantee job security?

dillerX · Mar 23, 2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by scaught:
what does it matter? he certainly looks like hes not having any human rights violations levied against him.

are you assuming some soldier shot the guy or roughed him up so they could keep the medic occupied? did the medic pay off some soldier to beat his ass so he could fix him up and guarantee job security?

Careful. Iraqi TV may take your post and turn it into propaganda.

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by scaught:
are you assuming some soldier shot the guy or roughed him up so they could keep the medic occupied? did the medic pay off some soldier to beat his ass so he could fix him up and guarantee job security?

No.

rambo47 · Mar 23, 2003, 11:30 AM

Al Jeerza is the lapdog for scumbags throughout the middle east. Quoting them gives you absolutley ZERO credibility. Those corpses are as likely to be from stock footage shot a year ago as having happened this week. Find a real source, then we'll listen.

scaught · Mar 23, 2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:
No.

wow. perhaps you could expand on your thought processes in response to my post next time. it would make this whole "message board community thing" work alot better.

thanks

BlackGriffen · Mar 23, 2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:

Nice. Why was this guy wounded ?!

Because he was an enemy soldier, maybe? The guy is wearing a uniform, and POWs tend to be soldiers.

BlackGriffen

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by scaught:
wow. perhaps you could expand on your thought processes in response to my post next time. it would make this whole "message board community thing" work alot better.

thanks

Let me explain : this Iraqi was wounded because marines wanted to take control of an oil pumping station in southern Iraq. Helping him is nice but not attacking him would have been nicer.

scaught · Mar 23, 2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by S Monkey:
Let me explain : this Iraqi was wounded because marines wanted to take control of an oil pumping station in southern Iraq. Helping him is nice but not attacking him would have been nicer.

well. lets see. its either take control of an oil pumping station or watch the iraqi soldiers light the ****ing thing on fire or send all the oil spilling into the gulf.

so tell me. do you like saddam? do you think hes a nice person?

Spliffdaddy · Mar 23, 2003, 12:05 PM

Too bad we aren't at war with the french...

mathew_m · Mar 23, 2003, 12:18 PM

moonrice the fool,

Al jazzeera also gave your idol bin laden plenty of airtime too.

idiot.

Why don't you go work for them with your little imac editing their propaganda?

Spliffdaddy · Mar 23, 2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
Too bad we aren't at war with the french...

newsflash

it just might happen. things are brewing....

kmkkid · Mar 23, 2003, 12:26 PM

You people are all ****ed up.

Didnt you mothers ever tell you: Two wrong's dont make a right.

Pitiful & Pathetic.

Chris

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
well. lets see. its either take control of an oil pumping station or watch the iraqi soldiers light the ****ing thing on fire or send all the oil spilling into the gulf.

so tell me. do you like saddam? do you think hes a nice person?

The wounded Iraqi on the picture is not Saddam. The kid with a hole in his head was not Saddam.

Everybody wants to get rid of the tyrant. But if the proposed solution is worse than the problem, I am against it.

Spliffdaddy · Mar 23, 2003, 12:31 PM

I want to get rid of France.

As soon as I get enough public opinion on my side - we're rolling East.

scaught · Mar 23, 2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by S Monkey:
The wounded Iraqi on the picture is not Saddam. The kid with a hole in his head was not Saddam.

Everybody wants to get rid of the tyrant. But if the proposed solution is worse than the problem, I am against it.

but you dont seem to know much of anything about the solution? youre going by pictures posted by this al jazeera site as facts? can you not see the bias there?

Spliffdaddy · Mar 23, 2003, 12:33 PM

STOP SURRENDERING DAMMIT!!

I can't process all these French POWs until my war actually starts.

Sit tight. I'll get to you soon.

kmkkid · Mar 23, 2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
I want to get rid of France.

As soon as I get enough public opinion on my side - we're rolling East.

wow, it's great that you have such opinions sitting on your ass doing nothing... isnt it?

Chris

Spliffdaddy · Mar 23, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by kmkkid:
wow, it's great that you have such opinions sitting on your ass doing nothing... isnt it?

Chris

Dude, I'm willing to bet that more Americans support war on France than they do Iraq.

S Monkey · Mar 23, 2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
but you dont seem to know much of anything about the solution?

You are right. Nobody really knows what the cost of this war will be. The anti-war are pessimistic. The pro-war are optimistic.

Millennium · Mar 23, 2003, 01:19 PM

The question is, are these pics real? It's already well-documented that Saddam has purchased many fake US and British uniforms; that was documented weeks ago, and it's never been a secret that they were going to fake photos just like these (well, not entirely fake; the deaths would be real, but not the perpetrators). Maybe these are real photos, or maybe they're not. No real way to tell. CNN is biased crap, but Al-Jazeera is just as much so, and neither is above manipulation or lying to further their respective agendas. Both outlets should be considered suspect.

Among other things, this bit about "indiscriminate use of cluster bombs", which isn't true; cluster bombs aren't being used at all, much less indiscriminately. If you look at what's been damaged in the bombings, you'll find out that the power, the water, the hospitals, and even most of the roads are all intact; the US is being very careful with its targets. Every measure is being taken to avoid civilian deaths. Some may happen accidentally; that is a great and terrible shame, but there is no way to avoid some. That's what war is, and why it's such a terrible thing.

Blame Saddam, the one who left the world with no alternative.

The Sheik · Mar 23, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by scaught:
but you dont seem to know much of anything about the solution? youre going by pictures posted by this al jazeera site as facts? can you not see the bias there?

Do you not see the bias of the western media?

Zimphire · Mar 23, 2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by The Sheik:
Do you not see the bias of the western media?

I don't think you can compare the two. Like how Al-Jazeera is reporting we are nuking them?

There is a difference between bias. ANY news source will have it, and all out lying.

Logic · Mar 23, 2003, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Like how Al-Jazeera is reporting we are nuking them?

Link?

theolein · Mar 23, 2003, 01:38 PM

Originally posted by Millennium:
The question is, are these pics real? It's already well-documented that Saddam has purchased many fake US and British uniforms; that was documented weeks ago, and it's never been a secret that they were going to fake photos just like these (well, not entirely fake; the deaths would be real, but not the perpetrators). Maybe these are real photos, or maybe they're not. No real way to tell. CNN is biased crap, but Al-Jazeera is just as much so, and neither is above manipulation or lying to further their respective agendas. Both outlets should be considered suspect.

Among other things, this bit about "indiscriminate use of cluster bombs", which isn't true; cluster bombs aren't being used at all, much less indiscriminately. If you look at what's been damaged in the bombings, you'll find out that the power, the water, the hospitals, and even most of the roads are all intact; the US is being very careful with its targets. Every measure is being taken to avoid civilian deaths. Some may happen accidentally; that is a great and terrible shame, but there is no way to avoid some. That's what war is, and why it's such a terrible thing.

Blame Saddam, the one who left the world with no alternative.

How do you know? Jesus fukking Christ on a crutch. For all we know this fukking war isn't taking place at all and all the soldiers and sh!t are part time actors. No one really knows. Perhaps those images of that child with it's head shot in were taken twelve years ago, perhaps not. Perhaps the Yanks are paying those couple of smiling Arabs to be friendly or else. No one knows.

What is fukking ridiculous is that everyone takes his favourite source of news as gospel, even if the news has been cut and edited out by the US military or Saddam's Final Cut Pro cutters. The fact that the US Military warned independant journalists that they faced being targeted when using Telephones or Satelite communications and that those Journalists who remained in Iraq had to do so under the watchful eyes of saddams goons says simply that the world has become even less free than it was thirty years ago in Vietnam, where the reporters could more or less do what they liked.

With all our technological advances we seem to have regressed in terms of social freedom.

Welcome to 1984.

daimoni · 05:56 PM

.

daimoni · 05:57 PM

.