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Family Member renting advice: They want a tax return
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Big Mac
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Apr 29, 2012, 04:07 PM
 
My uncle is trying to rent a new apartment. It's only $1800 a month but pretty nice, corporate managed and upscale. He's concerned though because they're requiring from him not only three months of bank statements but also his most recent tax return. He has over $500K in liquid assets as a beneficiary of our family trust, and he tried to see if it would be sufficient to show proof of that. Nope, they also want his tax return, and he has an issue with that because he didn't have much income last year and was on unemployment after losing his job.

Any advice for him? We've already discussed sticking to his guns, that it should be sufficient to provide bank statements showing his assets, or arguing that requiring a tax return is an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Any other ideas?
( Last edited by Big Mac; Apr 29, 2012 at 04:15 PM. )

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Apr 29, 2012, 04:35 PM
 
Where is the apartment? City, where in the city, etc. Corporate management may have some quirks about "ability to pay" nowadays, but with half a mil LIQUID, he should be able to go to someone above the rental office and point out that his taxable income is hardly representative of his ability to pay.

You might also research the management company; some companies are great, others are poo. Knowing which way this one swings is important.

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Apr 29, 2012, 06:02 PM
 
The family trust is hardly an indication of unencumbered money, depending in the number of beneficiaries and the type of liquid assets, the rental office could consider it an attempt of leveraging more credit than what's appropriate.
People are normally required an income of 3 times the renting cost. Maybe if he can show a personal bank account with 12x3x2000=$72k.
Or maybe show the tax return as a trustworthy evidence for the assets, which should have been reflected in the 1040, but only if previously determined that it helps at all.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 29, 2012, 06:11 PM
 
As was explained by my landlord at one point, liquid assets are not a valid security.

Cash is quickly mis-invested, spent on misguided follies, or whatever.
     
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Apr 29, 2012, 07:02 PM
 
Yeah, family trusts and various other assets are not particularly helpful in taking out a mortgage either, it's all about monthly income.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Apr 29, 2012, 07:24 PM
 
Does he have a job now?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Patrick
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Apr 29, 2012, 08:20 PM
 
If he's currently employed, he can show them his recent pay stubs. A tax return isn't proof of current or regular income - and I'd think most management companies would prefer that over proof of last year's income or bank statements.
     
Big Mac  (op)
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Apr 30, 2012, 02:43 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
The family trust is hardly an indication of unencumbered money, depending in the number of beneficiaries and the type of liquid assets,
Right, but I didn't mean to imply they were still trust assets. The $500K was distributed into his own account. I only mentioned he's a trust beneficiary to let you know where the money came from. But I understand what you guys mean by that not necessarily being sufficient, even though it seems hard to imagine that such proof of assets wouldn't be good enough to satisfy this type of requirement.
( Last edited by Big Mac; Apr 30, 2012 at 04:13 AM. )

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hyteckit
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Apr 30, 2012, 02:44 AM
 
Proof of income, not proof of assets.

Don't want to show a proof of income? Don't rent or find another place that doesn't require a proof of income.


Your uncle can offer to pay a year of rent up front.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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Waragainstsleep
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Apr 30, 2012, 06:55 AM
 
For $500K couldn't he just buy a place instead?
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
turtle777
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Apr 30, 2012, 06:59 AM
 
You could stick to your guns, but offer to put a few months worth of rent in an escrow account.

-t
     
turtle777
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Apr 30, 2012, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
For $500K couldn't he just buy a place instead?
He probably could, but that's not smart. Real estate prices are still dropping, and will continue to drop.
There is tremendous advantage in just renting, and being able to move quickly if you need to.

-t
     
BLAZE_MkIV
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Apr 30, 2012, 07:25 AM
 
They're gonna run a credit check on him. Trying to hide his previous unemployment is counter productive. Did he rent before? What would really help is a letter from them saying he was/is in good standing.
     
Big Mac  (op)
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Apr 30, 2012, 07:42 AM
 
They already ran a credit check: He's in the high 800s.

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subego
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Apr 30, 2012, 09:15 AM
 
This isn't financial/legal advice but general advice.

If you need to use the word "guns" with regards to your landlord, and he isn't even your landlord yet, this won't end well.

A different approach is called for.
     
The Godfather
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Apr 30, 2012, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
He probably could, but that's not smart. Real estate prices are still dropping, and will continue to drop.
There is tremendous advantage in just renting, and being able to move quickly if you need to.

-t
Depends on the market. Surely many houses will drop another 50% (extreme) through 2014 but the $25k-$50k you are going to flush renting over 2 years has to be greater than the depreciation of an equivalent average condominium.
     
The Godfather
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Apr 30, 2012, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This isn't financial/legal advice but general advice.

If you need to use the word "guns" with regards to your landlord, and he isn't even your landlord yet, this won't end well.

A different approach is called for.
Stick to your Bible/beliefs/traditions against your financial foes?
     
subego
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Apr 30, 2012, 09:25 AM
 
If you need to use the word "foe"...
     
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Apr 30, 2012, 11:31 AM
 
Finances are war, the customer service rep is just a soldier of your adversary, and your guns are your privacy, your capital, your knowledge of the law, and your community's lobbyist.
     
d4nth3m4n
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Apr 30, 2012, 12:42 PM
 
Why doesn't he just offer prepay the length of the lease?

That alone might be enough to get any savvy rental agent to start listening,
     
turtle777
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Apr 30, 2012, 12:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by d4nth3m4n View Post
Why doesn't he just offer prepay the length of the lease?
Should also work, pretty similar to my escrow account idea.
In the escrow account, you might get small amount of interest.

-t
     
Spheric Harlot
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Apr 30, 2012, 01:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Godfather View Post
Finances are war, the customer service rep is just a soldier of your adversary, and your guns are your privacy, your capital, your knowledge of the law, and your community's lobbyist.
Entering a rent contract with the attitude that your landlord is an enemy is a guarantee for hell on earth.
     
Athens
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Apr 30, 2012, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
My uncle is trying to rent a new apartment. It's only $1800 a month but pretty nice, corporate managed and upscale. He's concerned though because they're requiring from him not only three months of bank statements but also his most recent tax return. He has over $500K in liquid assets as a beneficiary of our family trust, and he tried to see if it would be sufficient to show proof of that. Nope, they also want his tax return, and he has an issue with that because he didn't have much income last year and was on unemployment after losing his job.

Any advice for him? We've already discussed sticking to his guns, that it should be sufficient to provide bank statements showing his assets, or arguing that requiring a tax return is an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Any other ideas?
If the last year tax returns hinder him perhaps providing a few years worth of tax returns could help. I don't know enough about American laws to offer much advice, and its more complicated as its different from State to State. Could a co-signer assist?

But this reminds me of a friend I have denied a $20,000 loan because he didn't have the approved income to qualify. He owns 6 houses clear title, 2 Million in cash and millions more in assets. All of it tied up in a ugly divorce. His rental income from the properties don't "COUNT" as approved income so even though he nets over 10k a month in rental income what the computer accepts is 0 dollar income. Was retarded and the pions at the bank couldn't make exceptions. The computer dictates everything.

This sounds like the case with what you are dealing with. Computer system or rules require a narrow acceptable proof of assets and income and exceptions could be difficult if possible at all even though he totally qualifies for it.
( Last edited by Athens; Apr 30, 2012 at 06:24 PM. )
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BLAZE_MkIV
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Apr 30, 2012, 06:21 PM
 
Sounds like he should have had all that real-estate in a business from which he could draw a salary.
Just give them the tax return or go elsewhere.
     
turtle777
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Apr 30, 2012, 09:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
But this reminds me of a friend I have denied a $20,000 loan because he didn't have the approved income to qualify. He owns 6 houses clear title, 2 Million in cash and millions more in assets. All of it tied up in a ugly divorce.
Your friend doesn't seem very smart. How can you have all you assets tied up like this, nd not have something "stashed" away for emergencies that doesn't get automatically drawn into the divorce.

The bank is right: someone who "owns" millions, and still needs a $20,000 loan can't be trusted.

-t
     
subego
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Apr 30, 2012, 11:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
Entering a rent contract with the attitude that your landlord is an enemy is a guarantee for hell on earth.
I had a landlord **** me out of a lease within 24 hours of having signed it. I could have "stuck to my guns" and sued him to get my lease reinstated. I'd have won too, with damages.

I didn't, because that would have been stupid.
     
Athens
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May 1, 2012, 11:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Your friend doesn't seem very smart. How can you have all you assets tied up like this, nd not have something "stashed" away for emergencies that doesn't get automatically drawn into the divorce.

The bank is right: someone who "owns" millions, and still needs a $20,000 loan can't be trusted.

-t
You mean to commit a crime? The money was needed to pay out some legal bills, and my point was about the inflexibility of banks and rental companies.

Originally Posted by subego View Post
I had a landlord **** me out of a lease within 24 hours of having signed it. I could have "stuck to my guns" and sued him to get my lease reinstated. I'd have won too, with damages.

I didn't, because that would have been stupid.

I've been dealing with a landlord that's been trying to evict or drive me out since last November after learning I'm Bi and my roommate is gay. Tried to charge me parking fees, tried to kick my pets out, tried to a numerous other things and been to one dispute court already. Going back a second time as she gave me a new eviction notice last Friday.
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subego
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May 1, 2012, 11:54 AM
 
Wow. What an asshole.
     
turtle777
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May 1, 2012, 11:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
You mean to commit a crime? The money was needed to pay out some legal bills, and my point was about the inflexibility of banks and rental companies.
Whatever it takes to survive.

If you own millions, but you have to borough $20k, you have structured your finances poorly.

-t
     
olePigeon
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May 1, 2012, 04:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
Any advice for him? We've already discussed sticking to his guns, that it should be sufficient to provide bank statements showing his assets, or arguing that requiring a tax return is an unnecessary invasion of privacy. Any other ideas?
This isn't subsidized, is it? Seems weird to be asking for so much information. Usually a clean credit record and proof of income is enough. Certainly not a tax return.
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Athens
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May 1, 2012, 05:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Whatever it takes to survive.

If you own millions, but you have to borough $20k, you have structured your finances poorly.

-t
Must work different where you are from. Generally speaking when going through a divorce here all assets and finances must be reported or you risk this thing called Jail.... And its pretty hard to hide stuff from a spouse who knows where it all is....


Originally Posted by olePigeon View Post
This isn't subsidized, is it? Seems weird to be asking for so much information. Usually a clean credit record and proof of income is enough. Certainly not a tax return.

A Tax return is a pretty good indicator of some ones proof of income for qualifying for acceptance. I've run into it as a requirement for loans. Also used to find out if there are any liabilities to the government from unpaid taxes since governments can freeze accounts for unpaid tax debt or seize income to pay debts. If some one has a tax debt they are high risk to rent to from possible bank action to recover that debt leaving the renter with no money to pay rent.
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nonhuman
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May 1, 2012, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Whatever it takes to survive.

If you own millions, but you have to borough $20k, you have structured your finances poorly.

-t
Or that your assets are all being leveraged for other purposes. Or that there are other factors involved that require your finances to be structured in a way that would otherwise be undesirable. Or that credit is cheap and you'll be financially better off with $20k of relatively low-interest debt compared to liquidating other assets and sacrificing whatever long-term gains you might have gotten from them.
     
turtle777
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May 1, 2012, 05:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by nonhuman View Post
Or that your assets are all being leveraged for other purposes. Or that there are other factors involved that require your finances to be structured in a way that would otherwise be undesirable. Or that credit is cheap and you'll be financially better off with $20k of relatively low-interest debt compared to liquidating other assets and sacrificing whatever long-term gains you might have gotten from them.
Uhm, I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

Are you trying to tell me it's smart to invest millions of dollars in a way that leaves you that exposed that you need a $20k loan ?

It's NOT smart. You should always have some cash, readily accessible, and be prepared for the worst.

-t
     
nonhuman
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May 1, 2012, 06:08 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
Uhm, I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

Are you trying to tell me it's smart to invest millions of dollars in a way that leaves you that exposed that you need a $20k loan ?

It's NOT smart. You should always have some cash, readily accessible, and be prepared for the worst.

-t
I'm saying that it's more complex than that. Depending on your situation it might actually be the best way to go; i.e., you wouldn't have those millions of dollars at all if they weren't so invested. It's smarter to have millions of dollars in highly leveraged assets than it is to have neither the money nor the assets.
     
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May 1, 2012, 06:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by turtle777 View Post
You could stick to your guns, but offer to put a few months worth of rent in an escrow account.

-t
I would suggest a modification of this. If your relative still doesn't have a job then he's going to be paying for the rent out of his trust fund distribution anyway. So why not just put up an amount equal to the entire lease term's rent into an iron clad escrow account that gets distributed to the landlord monthly? I certainly wouldn't pre-pay up front because that gives the landlord no incentive to address any maintenance issues on a timely basis. But if the landlord won't go for that then clearly they have other motivations for wanting tax returns. To which your relative should politely suggest they kiss his ass.

OAW
     
Athens
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May 1, 2012, 06:51 PM
 
Side-way topic, what is renting like in the US. I imagine its different from state to state but what protections are there for renters in general. I read comments like "no incentive for timely repairs" and it sounds like there is little in laws to protect renters.

@Turtle777 Frozen assets, means frozen. Unable to access due to legal proceedings. Stocks, Bonds, Cash, property, foreign investments untouchable. The court controls and manages everything.
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hyteckit
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May 1, 2012, 10:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Side-way topic, what is renting like in the US. I imagine its different from state to state but what protections are there for renters in general. I read comments like "no incentive for timely repairs" and it sounds like there is little in laws to protect renters.
Tenant laws are different from state to state, or even city to city.

Usually residential rentals have more rights than commercial rentals. With residential rentals, it's usually the landlords responsibility for repairs. Not so with commercial rentals. The lease agreement would specify the details of the repairs and timeframe which repairs are done. The only thing urgent is probably plumbing issues or a leaking roof.
Bush Tax Cuts == Job Killer
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Big Mac  (op)
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May 2, 2012, 01:59 AM
 
My uncle got his lease. Thank you for all the responses.

There are a lot of renter's protections in the US, Athens, but you're right it does vary from state to state and even by municipality.

"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." TJ
     
subego
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May 2, 2012, 02:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Athens View Post
Side-way topic, what is renting like in the US. I imagine its different from state to state but what protections are there for renters in general. I read comments like "no incentive for timely repairs" and it sounds like there is little in laws to protect renters.
Here in Chicago proper, there's a two-page list of tenants' rights.
     
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May 2, 2012, 08:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by Big Mac View Post
My uncle got his lease. Thank you for all the responses.

There are a lot of renter's protections in the US, Athens, but you're right it does vary from state to state and even by municipality.
Did he have to submit a tax return? What happened? You can't blueball this thread like that. <>
     
Big Mac  (op)
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May 2, 2012, 12:12 PM
 
I'll have to ask him if he submitted his return. I think he did but I'm not sure because he didn't mention it specifically, but he said that he got to see one of the managers and she was very, very nice. He did say they requested the first month's rent be a cashier's check, however, which is strange.

Edit: I asked, and yes he did submit his return along with a copy of his brokerage statement.
( Last edited by Big Mac; May 2, 2012 at 02:19 PM. )

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