Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

Mastrap · Nov 24, 2006, 07:55 AM

Recently I have caught myself buying vinyl again. I keep finding albums that are just too cheap/beautiful/unusual/all of the above not to purchase.

Problem is, my current music setup is a 1950's Braun valve stereo and while that's fine for the iPod it doesn't have a record player, nor an option to add one. So I'd like to purchase myself the following items:

One record player
One amplifier
One pre-amp
Speakers

However, to avoid the wrath of my wife and also because I dig the look of old audio gear, I am keen to purchase all of the above used. I'd love to get me some 70's veneered stuff. Any recommendations?

badidea · Nov 24, 2006, 08:36 AM

Bang & Olufsen Beocenter 7000

analogika · Nov 24, 2006, 10:31 AM

I don't know your budget, but the Linn Sondek LP12 is design straight out of 1972 - though you can still get it new.

Helluva record player.

Mastrap · Nov 24, 2006, 10:33 AM

Budget - needs to fly underneath the Wife Financial Radar™

badidea · Nov 24, 2006, 10:36 AM

Eigentlich könnten wir hier ja auch Deutsch reden, oder?

scottiB · Nov 24, 2006, 10:41 AM

Yamaha R-500 Receiver ($41 on eBay --but these may have some power supply issues)

Technics SLB3 turntable

Y3a · Nov 24, 2006, 10:57 AM

EvilBay...

Tecnics 1200 series TT. $150 or so.
Phono cart... Grado upper mid level, or Stanton 681eee series($80 or so) very important component BTW
Preamp - Crown IC150a no case for $200 or so. DO NOT get an IC150, get the IC150a.
Power amp Crown D75. prolly $120 or so
2 JBL 4311 or 4312 monitors ($200-350/pr)
This is all studio quality eqpt, and lots of places can fix it if it EVER goes bad. NONE of my Crown poweramps have ever gone bad, and I only wore out the volumn control on my crown preamp.

Sbtrfuge · Nov 24, 2006, 12:53 PM

Technics 1200, while being an industry standard, is a bit overkill for playing single records. he won't need the benefits of torque, direct drive, etc.

If you want a budget system, avoid ebay. Anything on ebay that's silver will go for $70-100.

Here's what to do: Hope on craigslist. Type in 'vintage' in the electronics section. You'll be able to find complete systems for under $100, or individual components for dirt cheap. I've picked up receivers worth $250 on ebay for only $30-40 on craigslist. Turntables are dirt cheap, so are tuners, anything. Most people selling things on craigslist just have little to no idea what they're actually selling, or what it's value is.

Here's a few I found for you:

Vintage "Realistic" Stereo System & Stand

Fisher Receiver Model 205

Pioneer SA-710

Vintage Bozak B300 speakers

Y3a · Nov 24, 2006, 02:22 PM

I guess a cheap turntable is gonna protect his records?

Ya get what you pay for.

Sbtrfuge · Nov 24, 2006, 03:17 PM

How is a 1200 going to protect his records more than another model?

Just google vintage turntables. HEre's a bunch that should be available for very little money:

www.vintagetechnics.com/turntables.htm

analogika · Nov 24, 2006, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Sbtrfuge

Technics 1200, while being an industry standard, is a bit overkill for playing single records. he won't need the benefits of torque, direct drive, etc.

Apart from that, if you don't need the built-like-a-tank DJ-abuse-resistant design, then you can actually get a decent-sounding turntable for the amount of money you'd spend on a Technics.

Thorens TD128 Mk2 is in pretty good supply this side of the pond - no idea about Canada. The Mk2 was an excellent turntable for the price. In the Mk3 and Mk4, they changed the motor to something with the same specs that didn't sound as good. Don't bother with any of the later, higher Thorens models: none of them sound as good as the 128 Mk2

Nexus5 · Nov 24, 2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

I don't know your budget, but the Linn Sondek LP12 is design straight out of 1972 - though you can still get it new.

Helluva record player.

The LP12 is probably the best turntable in the world.

nexus5.

Nexus5 · Nov 24, 2006, 04:06 PM

Originally Posted by badidea

Eigentlich könnten wir hier ja auch Deutsch reden, oder?

Eigentlich schon.

nexus5.

vmarks · Nov 24, 2006, 04:12 PM

JR.com: Audio / Turntables and Cartridges

$75 gets you a new Audio Technica unit.
Sure, it's belt drive, but a good belt drive and tone arm setup is generally very good.

Nexus5 · Nov 24, 2006, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by vmarks

JR.com: Audio / Turntables and Cartridges

$75 gets you a new Audio Technica unit.
Sure, it's belt drive, but a good belt drive and tone arm setup is generally very good.

Whats the problem with belt driven systems? Most top ranked turntables are belt driven.

nexus5.

slpdLoad · Nov 24, 2006, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by vmarks

JR.com: Audio / Turntables and Cartridges

I have one of these, and it works great. Recommended.

Edit: I should have been more specific with the link. I have the Audio Technica table.

analogika · Nov 24, 2006, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Nexus5

The LP12 is probably the best turntable in the world.

nexus5.

Ooooh, that's a gorgeous finish.

I've been wanting the Lingo power supply for mine for years, but since I'm needing a new cartridge, it'll have to wait 'til next year...

Sbtrfuge · Nov 24, 2006, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nexus5

Whats the problem with belt driven systems? Most top ranked turntables are belt driven.

nexus5.

Nothing... except the belt can loosen over time, giving uneven playback speeds. I'd get a belt driven TT in a heartbeat for just listening to records. If you want to scratch or mess with them, you'll need direct drive though.

Y3a · Nov 24, 2006, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Nexus5

The LP12 is probably the best turntable in the world.

nexus5.

Maybe not...

Clearaudio GmbH

analogika · Nov 25, 2006, 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by Sbtrfuge

Nothing... except the belt can loosen over time, giving uneven playback speeds. I'd get a belt driven TT in a heartbeat for just listening to records. If you want to scratch or mess with them, you'll need direct drive though.

Well, yeah.

The OP wants to listen to music, though.

And yes, belts need to be replaced after a while.

Sbtrfuge · Nov 27, 2006, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Y3a

I guess a cheap turntable is gonna protect his records?

Ya get what you pay for.

I'm still wondering how a 1200 protects records better...

Y3a · Nov 28, 2006, 09:29 AM

Better (marginally) tonearm.

I'd have a Linn over most other TT's. I currently have a modified FONS CQ-30 with SME 3009 arm. The arm is the most important part of the turntable anyway, and it can make a great phono cart sound horrid, or even damage it, if it's too heavy, poorly set up etc. I don't think a few hundred buck hi-fi is gonna display the detail and all to the kind of arm/cart combo financially affordable. for me, I'm looking at some of the $400-$600 range ClearAudio models. I have a Grace F9e Super thats fairly good, but not in the clas of todays high end carts.

Sbtrfuge · Nov 28, 2006, 09:31 PM

.... uh... adjustable tonearms are available on even cheap turntables. You sound like a serious(ly gullible) audiophile. Want some teflon based ear cleaner to improve your hearing? I guarantee the teflon reflects more sound into your ears giving your music much more high end sparkle.

Y3a · Nov 29, 2006, 02:58 PM

You sound like the typical partially def MP3 listener, who has neither the ears or equipment to tell the difference.

You also seem to be oblivious to the fact that cheap turntables also have innaccurate adjustment settings on them. This will allow you to destroy your records and phono cart. How does this help the original poster?

Sbtrfuge · Nov 29, 2006, 11:13 PM

You're implying that a more expensive turntable provides more protection. I think that's rubbish. Even cheaper turntables have adjustable tonearms, WHICH YOU CAN ADJUST THE FORCE THE NEEDLE IS PUTTING ONTO THE RECORD, AND ADJUST THE ANGLE OF THE NEEDLE ITSELF. That said, if I adjust it so there's barely any weigh on the record, how is this harming my record collection?

And sorry, I don't listen to MP3s much. I have a decent vinyl collection, a decent tt, and a decent sound system. But thanks for being a typical audiophile snob that's full of wrong assumptions and baseless ideas like certain tt's protect vinly better than others... you've only further cemented the idea that I have that all self-proclaimed audiophiles are morons with more money than brains.

Mastrap · Nov 29, 2006, 11:59 PM

Well, a friend of mine supplied me with a Hitachi HT 40S (actually build by Technics) to get me started. Ordered a phono preamp today as my 1950's Braun valve stereo amp needs a higher signal to work. Preamp should arrive next week.

Sbtrfuge · Nov 30, 2006, 01:24 AM

Good luck! Be sure to let us know how it turns out!

Mac Write · Nov 30, 2006, 06:53 AM

To get the best possible quality out of your Vynlies I would recommend a straight arm. This allows the needle to always be perfectly vertical and the arm slides along a track on the back or possibly the side (can't remember the name of this record player). an audiophile friend said this is the best and it makes sense as each side of the groove is one channel (left/right) so having it perfectly vertical will create very crisp clear sound.

badidea · Nov 30, 2006, 08:22 AM

I smell ca$h in this thread!

Sbtrfuge · Nov 30, 2006, 09:27 AM

There's this 'dragon' turntable by nagamachi or something that has the entire platter on servos, and it self centers each record in case the hole in the middle is slightly off. Sounded crazy. Is even crazier when you see the price.

Person Man · Nov 30, 2006, 10:04 AM

Originally Posted by badidea

I smell ca$h in this thread!

Actually, I don't think so. Ca$h has an appreciation for high-quality vintage audio gear.

See this thread started by Ca$h for details.

Y3a · Nov 30, 2006, 10:22 AM

Straight tracking tonearms are very expensive. The Garrard Zero-100 has a Rube Goldberg approach which has a very massive arm as a byproduct. Taking a typical junk arm and setting it to track very lightly...

(Even cheaper turntables have adjustable tonearms, WHICH YOU CAN ADJUST THE FORCE THE NEEDLE IS PUTTING ONTO THE RECORD, AND ADJUST THE ANGLE OF THE NEEDLE ITSELF. That said, if I adjust it so there's barely any weigh on the record, how is this harming my record collection?)

... still have problems. The pivots are stiff and cause wear on those LPs that aren't perfectly flat. The mass of the arm causes a delay due to inertia which makes the actual tracking off while the arm moves to the ideal spot, and your assumption about "barely any weight on the record" means the stylus will be churning in the groove instead of accuratly tracking the walls of it. This will shear off the higher frequencies and scar the lowest ones. This is why phono arms are designed with rigid lightweight materials, the finest bearings, needle jewels and knife edge pivot points they can manage, and precise anti-skating, dynamic counterbalancing. I may be more qualified than many of you as I worked for an audio company (RIAA, AES Certified) as a technician that calibrated the disk cutting lathes for several local DC record Labs.

The original poster needs advice that is PRACTICAL, and inexpensive. Why risk the LP collection on crappy equipment, which is the main point of his listening??

I didn't suggest esoteric moving coil carts, Vestigal Arms, and highly expensive turntables. A Dual 1229 would work, but parts are hard to come by, and they use an idler puck, which causes rumble. Direct Drives don't hae that problem over time. The arm is the most important part of any turntable. It prevents excesive wear on the records if it's NOT massive, and its pivot points are smooth and require almost no force to move them, and this allows the phono cart to work within the range it was designed to, both geometric, and tracking weight.

The fact is that some turntable/tonearm/stylus combos DO protect your LP collection better than others, whether you believe it or not.

zro · Nov 30, 2006, 10:37 AM

I use an old Realistic LAB-300 that still does great. It's about time for an overhaul, though.

badidea · Nov 30, 2006, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Person Man

Actually, I don't think so. Ca$h has an appreciation for high-quality vintage audio gear.

See this thread started by Ca$h for details.

Yes, that's true but Rob also is allergic to the word "audiophile" and loves to argue that ear cleaning is more important than high quality audio gadgets!

(but I'll stop the derailing here since I don't care if Rob is back or not!)

Gossamer · Nov 30, 2006, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by Sbtrfuge

...ELF. That said, if I ...

Or perhaps it's Salty.

analogika · Dec 2, 2006, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Sbtrfuge

That said, if I adjust it so there's barely any weigh on the record, how is this harming my record collection?

Even the most perfectly designed, adjusted, and maintained turntable will kill your vinyl over (a long) time.

A needle is harder than vinyl. The variations within the groove that actually store the sound are microscopic. Every playing will eat at the groove and cause sound degradation; it is merely a question of *how much*. With a decent turntable, a well-pressed vinyl will outlast any CD by decades, but it will eventually deteriorate.

Which is why some people splurge on laser turntables, despite the inferior sound.