[analogika]

ack. dp.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

Expose increases the feeling of clutter, and it doesn't let you focus on just one window of one app.

I'm beginning to think that Mac users are just disorganized people, with no concepts of practicality or efficiency.

No - we can work intuitively, using the screen the same way we do a real workspace, if we choose to (see my post above).

I posit that if stuff in other windows distracts you, you probably work in a darkened vacuum with naked walls and an empty desk. Correct?


And when you're actually working on graphics projects (or music, or whatever), 9 times out of 10 the file will be as large or larger than your screen anyway, so "maximize" will do exactly what your Windows-habituated self will expect.

[lngtones]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

If you have to explain something that should be intuitive, then something is wrong. On my laptop, I do not like having lots of windows layered upon each other, because this clutters up the screen. Maximizing makes sense because it gets all of the other stuff out of sight temporarily, and it can be done in a split second.

This is very similar to the whole one-button mouse argument. Despite all of the interesting arguments to the contrary, the average user still does not find control-clicking to be useful. The same goes for resizing windows.

Learn to use the Hide functionality. Maximizing is for mouth breathers that can't understand basic concepts like drag and drop. It's also for webmail users, porn addicts, and those with ADD.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by lngtones

Learn to use the Hide functionality. Maximizing is for mouth breathers that can't understand basic concepts like drag and drop. It's also for webmail users, porn addicts, and those with ADD.

harsh but true

cheers

W-Y

[Gee4orce]

Woz is called the father of the Macintosh by some - but to me he's more like an embarassing uncle.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Doesn't work for me on Firefox.

-t

you can edit your own post title for about 10 minutes after you post it by double clicking it fast

[strictlyplaid]

The hostility toward "maximize" in this board is really confusing to me. I get the sense that the inferiority complex that comes with owning a Mac generates it. Alternatively, maybe everyone here is one of those wealthy aesthetes with a 20" screen minimum and can't understand what it's like to work on a 15" screen or less.

Look, anyone who has their 12" iBook screen turned up to such a high resolution that they can see their entire Word document without full-screen either has incredibly good eyesight, or is damaging their eyes just to prove some ridiculous point about UI.

I should add that drag and drop works fine in maximized applications with Windows - you just drag the icon to the taskbar. But let me guess--that's "unintuitive" and you should know because you're a _________ with ______ years experience in _______. Well, I'll just say this: if that task seems too difficult and unintuitive to you, maybe you're too dumb to be using a computer.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

The hostility toward "maximize" in this board is really confusing to me.

I agree.

I don't see how many open windows with different sizes would help. This is way to cluttered for me. I like full size because I want to work and focus on ONE window / app at a time. For drag and drop purposes, Expose works wonders. Besides that, I have always worked in full window size except where I had to compare information from different apps. I need that in about 0.5% of the times.

-t

[birdman]

If iTunes were nothing more than stop/play/next/previous buttons a la an iPod, I would agree it's unnecessary to maximize the window. However, it is not. iTunes (unlike Sound Jam, which I dearly miss) is a jukebox. I take advantage of all 1280 of my pixels to display the song name, time, artist, album, composer, year, size, bit rate, and play count. No, it's not absolutely necessary I have all that information readily available, but since I have the screen space at my disposal, I'd prefer to use it. When I want to use another program, I simply hit command-H to hide iTunes. If I had a 30" display or some such, I wouldn't need to maximize like I currently do.

-birdman

[wdlove]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Nah, I pulled the Entourage plunge when Tiger came out. Would never go back.
Yes, Entourage has some features that mail doesn't, but's I'm not really missing any.

I haven't noticed that Mail sucks with loads of mail. What is loads ? 20 per day ? 100 per day ? I dunno.

-t

Thanks for the response. I'm having a problem with Entourage now. Once and if it can be fixed may make the switch to Mail.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by birdman

If iTunes were nothing more than stop/play/next/previous buttons a la an iPod, I would agree it's unnecessary to maximize the window. However, it is not.

Then option-click the (+)-button. Where's the problem?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by wdlove

Thanks for the response. I'm having a problem with Entourage now. Once and if it can be fixed may make the switch to Mail.

Yeah, you should. Entourage has the better calender, IMO, but the problem is the syncing with iPods and the Apple Address book. Juts a pain. Mail is nicely integrated into Address Book, iChat, iCal etc.

-t

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Gee4orce

Woz is called the father of the Macintosh by some - but to me he's more like an embarassing uncle.

I'm sorry. You must be talking about Jef Raskin. Woz had nothing to do with the Macintosh.

[- - e r i k - -]

Maximizing is stupid in 99% of all cases. However, there are some apps that lends itself to maximizing, iTunes is a good example. You want the maximized amount of information on screen at one time. However for apps like web-browsing and finder window you want the window to fit the content, anything else is waste of space (and you can hide other apps if you don't want clutter).

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

Maximizing is stupid in 99% of all cases.

Again, even on a 12" screen? I think not.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - -

I'm sorry. You must be talking about Jef Raskin. Woz had nothing to do with the Macintosh.

Right, Woz was the father of the Apple II. But while people credit Raskin as "father of the Macintosh" he only directed the initial stages of the product, and if he had stayed to manage the project the Mac would have been a completely different computer. He went on to create his vision of the ultimate personal computer at another company (Canon if I recall), and it was an utter flop.

[Weyland-Yutani]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

Again, even on a 12" screen? I think not.

I agree that on a 12" screen one wants to use apps 'maximized', however when one opens an app on a 1024x768 pix screen apps are pretty much maximized by default.

There are already higher res LCDs on PowerBooks and soon enough on the 12" iBooks and PBs. Then the need for a maximize option is no longer needed. Arguably the current 12" resolution is on the verge of being too low, but this won't be the case in the future.

Strangely when I use Windows, I usually maximize apps, no matter the resolution of the display. Probably because I intuatively work with the desktop metaphor on the Mac while it is really limited on Windows.


@ birdman

Maximizing iTunes on a 12" display isn't very hard anyway. Do you really need a whole button just for the process, especially since you wouldn't change that setting, seeing as you prefer to use iTunes in fullscreen mode all the time?

As long as the OS has a bit of spaciality left then a maximize button is not a good thing. If the Finder will ever become browser/column view only, then by all means add a maximize button. It would serve just as well as it does in Windows.

cheers

W-Y

[wdlove]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Yeah, you should. Entourage has the better calender, IMO, but the problem is the syncing with iPods and the Apple Address book. Juts a pain. Mail is nicely integrated into Address Book, iChat, iCal etc.

-t

I figured that integration would be better.

[birdman]

Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani

Maximizing iTunes on a 12" display isn't very hard anyway. Do you really need a whole button just for the process, especially since you wouldn't change that setting, seeing as you prefer to use iTunes in fullscreen mode all the time?

Sorry, I didn't mean that there had to be a maximize button in iTunes; I was replying to the notion that maximizing the iTunes window isn't necessary. I realize in iTunes it's not often that you would ever need to resize the window. I do drag & drop by dragging an audio file to the iTunes dock icon.

FWIW, there's an easy way to maximize just about any window in the OS: drag the window to the top left, and drag the bottom right corner to the bottom right to resize it. Since most Safari windows are already in the top left corner, this is a one-step process. The reason for wanting a maximize button is because it uses the maximum possible screen space and looks neater than if I did it by hand.

I do have to wonder, though, if Apple already included a maximize button, would we even be having this debate? That is, would those opposed to the maximize button be clammoring for its removal?

-birdman

[Speckledstone]

I have a great deal of respect for Woz and have always admired him, but I find some of his statements in this interview are a little odd. He makes some good points, but I’m a little confused when it comes to his criticisms.

Woz - “...because the big companies, Microsoft, Apple and AOL, they tend to turn out the crappiest products, you know, software-wise. The ones that have the most bugs, the most items that are supposedly in there but don't work. The most things that are left out because they aren't finished. The most things that are inconsistent with the way they did their last program. I get the worst, worst software almost always from Apple.”

John Stafford - “You think so?”

Woz - “Oh yeah. I get third-party stuff and it's almost always just better, cleaner and more understandable. It works better and does what you'd expect instead of, you know, buggy things or not what you expect.”

John Stafford - “What's an example?”

Woz - “I couldn't give you an example. It happens just all the time. Over and over and over.”

Sure, no one wants an app that doesn’t do what you expect it to, one that is inconsistent with previous versions (unless it is an improvement) or one that is buggy. People also want their apps to be clean and and understandable. To claim that “the big companies” create the crappiest software and not be able to provide an example is a bit odd. Is it not?

[analogika]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

The hostility toward "maximize" in this board is really confusing to me. I get the sense that the inferiority complex that comes with owning a Mac generates it. Alternatively, maybe everyone here is one of those wealthy aesthetes with a 20" screen minimum and can't understand what it's like to work on a 15" screen or less.

Look, anyone who has their 12" iBook screen turned up to such a high resolution that they can see their entire Word document without full-screen either has incredibly good eyesight, or is damaging their eyes just to prove some ridiculous point about UI.

15" Powerbook here.

The only windows I EVER maximize are the ones needed for work projects (where, as mentioned, content is actually larger than maximum visible area) - the Logic arrange window and the mixer (though the latter only horizontally).

On 1024x768, you get close to maximum very quickly, but I found it intensely annoying not to be able to keep an eye on that file transfer running in the background etc.

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

I should add that drag and drop works fine in maximized applications with Windows - you just drag the icon to the taskbar.

I had some experience with doing just that, and "fine" doesn't even come close to describing how, erm, consistently it "worked".

[Kevin]

Yeah drag and drop in Windows is barely usable.

And that HORRID GUI shell that encapsulates every application doesn't cater to DND either.

I was once told by an MS zealot that that shell was the applications "memory protection" that is why it's there.

[strictlyplaid]

On maximize in Windows:

Originally Posted by analogika

I had some experience with doing just that, and "fine" doesn't even come close to describing how, erm, consistently it "worked".

<shrug> It's always worked fine for me. Actually, I'm a bit curious as to what happens when it doesn't work--like, the file just doesn't transfer and nothing happens, or what?

Turning up the res on smaller screens just doesn't work for me -- it makes my eyes hurt.

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by lngtones

Learn to use the Hide functionality. Maximizing is for mouth breathers that can't understand basic concepts like drag and drop. It's also for webmail users, porn addicts, and those with ADD.

So you concede then that the Mac OS is not a simple-to-use operating system?

If it isn't simple to use, then Mac OS X is a bit pointless then, isn't it?

Apple fanboys are so ridiculous: they come up with complex, elitist reasons to justify blatant flaws in the platform. They use platitudinous vagaries to defend things like single-button mice and PowerPC processors, and they continue to toe the line until Steve himself announces a reversal.

[Spliffdaddy]

Wow.

As the resident peecee troll, I'm pleased to see that Microsoft isn't the only company making money on second-rate software.

[- - e r i k - -]

Holy unrelated and absurd comment Batgan!

[Spliffdaddy]

I mean, why pay for crappy software when you can run Linux and get crappy software for free....and spend six weeks trying to install and configure it.

[Spliffdaddy]

There's nothing more intuitive than having to define the task of every clicky-button using a text-based config file.

[ink]

Well, he's right about Quicktime. It gets worse with every version.

[vmarks]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

The hostility toward "maximize" in this board is really confusing to me. I get the sense that the inferiority complex that comes with owning a Mac generates it. Alternatively, maybe everyone here is one of those wealthy aesthetes with a 20" screen minimum and can't understand what it's like to work on a 15" screen or less.

Look, anyone who has their 12" iBook screen turned up to such a high resolution that they can see their entire Word document without full-screen either has incredibly good eyesight, or is damaging their eyes just to prove some ridiculous point about UI.

I should add that drag and drop works fine in maximized applications with Windows - you just drag the icon to the taskbar. But let me guess--that's "unintuitive" and you should know because you're a _________ with ______ years experience in _______. Well, I'll just say this: if that task seems too difficult and unintuitive to you, maybe you're too dumb to be using a computer.

Maximise is unimportant to me. I prefer to stack windows on top of each other with the edges peeking out from underneath so I can watch multiple things at once. 12" screen, no need to have a word processor document magnified at 200%.

Used Windows daily since 1991, OS/2 prior and concurrently, Linux since 98, Mac since 2000, but still keeping up with Windows. Windows and drag and drop on the taskbar is a cute idea, and it works sometimes- but with MS stacking multiple windows of the same application in the same item in the taskbar, it's harder to drag to the desired target. The MDI ui method is annoying- the problem is a lack of consistency in function. Intuitive is a bad word for this because it implies something that would be easy to guess, and what's easy for one may not be easy for all (and it changes when you take into account things like right to left languages which add expectations that workflows begin on the right instead of the left...) - instead, things should be simple to learn, and the lessons applicable globally. Windows fails on consistency more than Mac does, although Mac consistency has gotten worse in the past few years (metal interface, aqua interface, wood panelling on GarageBand?)

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by vmarks

Maximise is unimportant to me. I prefer to stack windows on top of each other with the edges peeking out from underneath so I can watch multiple things at once. 12" screen, no need to have a word processor document magnified at 200%.

Congrats, you have great eyesight and/or a high tolerance for eyestrain.

Originally Posted by vmarks

Used Windows daily since 1991, OS/2 prior and concurrently, Linux since 98, Mac since 2000, but still keeping up with Windows. Windows and drag and drop on the taskbar is a cute idea, and it works sometimes- but with MS stacking multiple windows of the same application in the same item in the taskbar, it's harder to drag to the desired target. The MDI ui method is annoying- the problem is a lack of consistency in function. Intuitive is a bad word for this because it implies something that would be easy to guess, and what's easy for one may not be easy for all (and it changes when you take into account things like right to left languages which add expectations that workflows begin on the right instead of the left...) - instead, things should be simple to learn, and the lessons applicable globally. Windows fails on consistency more than Mac does, although Mac consistency has gotten worse in the past few years (metal interface, aqua interface, wood panelling on GarageBand?)

I'm not interested in discussing Windows UI writ large; I'm interested in discussing "maximize". Saying you can't drag and drop because of maximized windows (as the earlier posters did) is wrong, which was my point.

You can set the taskbar to list each item separately (i.e. not group them) by checking a settings box, if that is causing you trouble.

[lngtones]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan

So you concede then that the Mac OS is not a simple-to-use operating system?

If it isn't simple to use, then Mac OS X is a bit pointless then, isn't it?

Apple fanboys are so ridiculous: they come up with complex, elitist reasons to justify blatant flaws in the platform. They use platitudinous vagaries to defend things like single-button mice and PowerPC processors, and they continue to toe the line until Steve himself announces a reversal.

Uh, where did I say simple to use?

And what is your point exactly? There is a difference between simple to use and dumbed down. Microsoft Bob was very simple to use, but very infuriating because not only was it simple it was dumbed down.

That's how I feel about wizards and maximized windows as well. They are for people with attention deficit disorder who don't really need to do anything but look busy.

I'm just saying, most people I see using maximized windows in Windows are people that don't actually use their computers to do work. I use Windows everyday, rarely maximize my Windows though becaus I need to use multiple apps at once. I'm not reading webmail and people's live journals in maximied IE windows.

[Spliffdaddy]

How many applications are you actively interacting with at any given time?

one?

"Maximize" isn't stupid.

Trying to suggest that it's somehow a problem is pure stupid.

Apple needs a "maximize" button. Bottom line.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

How many applications are you actively interacting with at any given time?

one?

"Maximize" isn't stupid.

You are not maximizing applications, you are maximizing windows. So the question should be "how many windows are you actively interacting with?" That is usually more than one window (of the same or different applications).

And there where it makes sense applications can offer a fullscreen mode. QuickTime Player does, iCab and Opera web-browsers do, Photoshop does sort of etc. It's not like Apple is forbidding fullscreen mode somehow.

[Spliffdaddy]

Oh puhleeze.

Do you know how silly you sound while trying to justify something that Apple needs to include, but doesn't?

I guess the 1 button mouse is a godsend?

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

something that Apple needs to include, but doesn't

What is it that you want to do?

[Spliffdaddy]

maximize a window.

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

maximize a window.

Why? What is the reason? What is the problem you are trying to solve?

[Spliffdaddy]

I want my applications to span my entire screen.

Keeps my attention focused.

(if I ever own a Mac)

[TETENAL]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

(if I ever own a Mac)

So you don't even own a Mac? Why then "Apple needs to add this"? You are only assuming there is a problem then.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Keeps my attention focused.

That's a good reason. Applications like Photoshop and Aperture have special fullscreen modes for this reason. For other applications it doesn't really make much sense to have a window fullscreen (like an iChat buddy window for example). And yet you could resize the window yourself to the size of the screen and it will remember it.

[Spliffdaddy]

Well, yeah. Currently I'm using my first homebuilt computer, a 466 Celeron - circa 1998-ish running WinXP.

The -70F ultra-chilled 4GHz P4 machine consumes 38 Amps of power.

My computer damn well better remember stuff.
That's its job.
I get so sick of looking for things on my computer.

How am *I* supposed to remember 48GB of crap?

[Spliffdaddy]

beer? I might have one laying around somewhere.

[Kerrigan]

I really wish that there was a maximize button when I use MS Word. I am always having to adjust the length of the toolbar, and then I have to meticulously resize the document window to block out everything behind it. I don't want to see my desktop pattern or icons when I am working. The whole thing reminds me a lot of Windows 3.1.

[lou91940]

I like and respect Woz for his contributions to Apple and computing...but... when Apple was in trouble he isn't the one who brought it back from the edge. Mainly his comments remind me of the old retired employee who on visiting his former place of employment, bends everyones ear about how things were done better in "his" day in the good old days etc. etc. etc.

[- - e r i k - -]

Perhaps you should unclutter your desktop and use a non-annoying desktop background then?

My god, people who can't focus because of the window not taking up unnecessary space needs to realize the problem probably lies with themselves, not the computer.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

There's nothing more intuitive than having to define the task of every clicky-button using a text-based config file.

What GUI applications require configuring a text-based config file?

Text-based configuration is for GUI-less services, and for good reason.


A lot of the biases against Linux/Unix Mac users have are extremely outdated, much like the biases against Mac users that Windows users maintain.

[adrian_milliner]

Originally Posted by turtle777

Darn. So I have to start a new thread to try it out ?

-t

Funny how this thread started out discussing poor Apple software then ended up discussing the poor usability of the this forum software instead

[lngtones]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

How many applications are you actively interacting with at any given time?

one?

"Maximize" isn't stupid.

Trying to suggest that it's somehow a problem is pure stupid.

Apple needs a "maximize" button. Bottom line.

What? I find it hard to think of doing anything productive with only one window.

For any kind of developer,

Code, you have your main xcode window, interface builder, possibly multliple source files, and most importantly a seperate documentation window.

HTML, windows for the pages, photoshop for the images, web browsers for preview, and again documentation.

Flash, main flash window, external editor so you don't lose everything when you crash, documentation

And for non developers, I guess maybe Audio I don't know much about those apps.

But if you're writing a document in Word you're telling me you never look up electronic references at the same time?

A maximize button is just unnecessary because if you really need the extra space just resize the window.

[lngtones]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I want my applications to span my entire screen.

Keeps my attention focused.

(if I ever own a Mac)

Do you wear blinders like a horse when you walk around? How do you keep yourself from being distracted by everything around you? Have you every been to Vegas? You might have an aneurism.

Actually I heard Ridalin is a good cure for this.

[Footy]

Mail is nice but I've been using Gmail for a long time now and prefer it. I have all my accounts forward to Gmail and you can send via Gmail using your other accounts as the sender which is nice. Add to that Gmail Notifier and it's even better.

Safari is another nice one but I prefer Firefox over it.

iTunes... Love it!

Finder works for me without complaint but I'm easy.