[macintologist]

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/NY1ToGo/Story...id=1&aid=55748

Millions of commuters are facing their worst nightmare this morning as a massive transit strike brings New York City's transit system to a halt, threatening businesses and stifling movement across the five boroughs.

Transit workers began walking off the job at 3 a.m. following a vote of the union's executive board, hours after union leaders rejected the MTA's final contract offer at the end of a contentious bargaining session.

City officials say the work stoppage, the city's first transit strike since 1980, will have a massive and debilitating effect on the city, thwarting millions of commuters and countless tourists on the cusp of the holiday season.

"Our contract expired on Thursday at midnight, but we postponed a strike in deference to our riders," said TWU Local 100 President Roger Toussaint in announcing the strike shortly before 3 a.m. "All local TWU members are now directed to report to the picket lines."

To the city's seven million commuters, Toussaint said: "For the riders, we ask for your understanding. Our fight is their fight."

The TWU allowed all subway trains and buses that were running at the time of the strike announcement to complete their runs before returning to the depots and shutting down.

All subway entrances have been locked and station agents and token booth attendants are now off the job.

The city has deployed its transit contingency plan to help smooth the bumps for the region's seven million commuters. Until 11 a.m. on each day of the strike, vehicles with fewer than four passengers are prohibited from entering Manhattan at all bridges and tunnels south of 96th Street, and barricades at 96th Street prohibit cars with fewer than four people from passing southbound through that point.

However, vehicles traveling within Manhattan need not have four passengers.

Even with the restrictions, traffic on the West Side Highway and FDR Drive was backed up for miles by 5:30 a.m. North of 96th Street, drivers were spotted picking up strangers to make it past police checkpoints with the required four passengers.

In a show of solidarity with displaced straphangers, Mayor Michael Bloomberg joined thousands of commuters crossing the Brooklyn Bridge on foot as he made his way to his City Hall office shortly after 7 a.m.

On a lighter note, two dozen Santas from Brookstone's department store took up positions on the bridge to greet commuters as they streamed across the famous span.

Meanwhile, the city's public schools are opening two hours later than normal to allow extra travel time for students.

A strike by the city's 34,000 transit workers is illegal under the state's Taylor Law, which provides for substantial fines against public workers who strike. The city comptroller’s office says the city stands to lose $1.6 billion in the first week of a strike, with the hardest economic blow coming on the first day.

Ughh, people like this make me sick.

If they hate their jobs so much as to warrant not showing up, why don't they f***** quit and let someone else take their place.

Unions are completely irrelevant seeing as how there are plenty of federal laws protecting workers from abuse. If you don't like your job, then QUIT!

[ism]

Sorry, I thought this was posted personally for me.

It ain't that simple. I'd love to quit right now. I doubt my wife and kid would be too stoked though.

Anyway, now I've read the article (briefly) are you saying employees should just take what their employer says as law and just bend over? I'm not that into strikes and unions and that, but I'm quite sure sometimes people have a point.

[macintologist]

ism: It's quite simple, if you feel your pay isn't enough, you could ask your employer for a raise, you could try to work overtime. What is it that makes these people think walking off on the job will get them more money?

The bottom line is that if you feel you aren't paid enough, and your employer won't give you a raise, you should find another job, especially when millions of people are dependent on you to get to their own work as we see in this example.

[ism]

It's not all about money though is it? I'm not familiar with this situation, but I'm sure in the history of strikes, etc there have been ones to do with working conditions, etc that have probably benefitted us all.

It's tricky with Public Services though. I'd like to think the Union, etc don't take striking lightly since I'm sure they know full well that a) The employer will hate them and b) the public will hate them.

You are right about the money thing though. Nowadays hard work doesn't seem to be rewarded by a company and the only way to progress up the ladder seems to be to jump ship. A lot of companies consider overtime compulsory for salaried people and no guarantee of a rise (even related to inflation). I've certainly worked in these circumstances and SUPRISINGLY I didn't hate that job as much as my current one because the people were a good laugh.

In that previous job I knew people in that were in a Union. I didn't see the point as the Union had no power. They were never going to change anything. IF I were to be in a Union I'd want to be in one that had the power to call a strike and at least get things known about.

Anyway, you are drawing me into the pointless world of the political lounge. I only replied cus it was almost as if you were reading my mind with the title of this thread.

[ThinkInsane]

Under the Taylor Law, they can actually fire striking public employees, but that leads to the problem of hiring and training 34,000 replacement workers.

I think you may be over simplifying things a bit by assuming that the fact these people hate their jobs is the issue. It's an unresolved contract dispute, nothing more. And I think the fact that they just shut down NYC shows that unions don't warrant the level of irrelevancy that you claim. Seems to me that the NYC Transit Workers Union is probably the most relevant organization in the city this morning.

[RIRedinPA]

Originally Posted by macintologist

ism: It's quite simple, if you feel your pay isn't enough, you could ask your employer for a raise, you could try to work overtime. What is it that makes these people think walking off on the job will get them more money?

The bottom line is that if you feel you aren't paid enough, and your employer won't give you a raise, you should find another job, especially when millions of people are dependent on you to get to their own work as we see in this example.

It's not that simplistic. Don't you think they did ask for more money? I don't know all the details in the NYC case but we just had a short transit strike down here in Philly. The Union went on strike because SEPTA (the transit organization) wanted them to start paying 5% of their healthcare and for new hires to pay 30% their first year and 20% their second years. Currently workers pay 1% of their healthcare. They also rejected a 9% raise.

On the surface it seems like the SEPTA workers were acting like spoiled children but in 2003 they had signed an agreement with management to forgo raises in the short term for a guarantee on the 1% cost for health care. They weren't really rejecting the raise but the health care cost.

In the end SEPTA and the Union both agreed to put cover 1% of the healthcare cost and on a guaranteed 3% raise over the next four years as well as some change to work rules. Ostensibly both sides saw it as a win-win.

I think it sucks for all the folks trying to get to work today but for the transit workers (or any workers) life isn't so simple where they can ask for a raise and if the boss says no they can quit and be guaranteed to find a job of equal salary. You must have some awesome skills in your profession to be able to do that.

[Timo]

Originally Posted by macintologist

If they hate their jobs so much as to warrant not showing up, why don't they f***** quit and let someone else take their place.

Unions are completely irrelevant seeing as how there are plenty of federal laws protecting workers from abuse. If you don't like your job, then QUIT!

You live an adolescent dreamworld.

[spacefreak]

Originally Posted by RIRedinPA

I think it sucks for all the folks trying to get to work today but for the transit workers (or any workers) life isn't so simple where they can ask for a raise and if the boss says no they can quit and be guaranteed to find a job of equal salary. You must have some awesome skills in your profession to be able to do that.

Or not be in a union.

[Rolling Bones]

You want legal sweatshops?

This would happen eventually.

"Get another job" has always been an easy thing to say for anti unionists but it is more complicated than that.

Even if you don't belong to a union, your job is probably better because of unions.

[Pendergast]

I say we all quit now.

[production_coordinator]

Originally Posted by Rolling Bones

Even if you don't belong to a union, your job is probably better because of unions.

Historically, yes... in modern times... no.

[OldManMac]

Considering that the majority of people either hate or dislike their jobs, if we all quit we'd be in deep doo doo, wouldn't we?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by KarlG

Considering that the majority of people either hate or dislike their jobs, if we all quit we'd be in deep doo doo, wouldn't we?

Of course not.

We'd be jobless, and there would be no economy going on!

This could be the new start for glorious Kommunism Kamarad!

Let's share everything! (you first please)

[Spliffdaddy]

Labor unions - the last great hope for the advancement of liberal ideology. After all, it's the epitome of the leftist mindset; "the world owes me something".
The AFL-CIO is one of the largest funding entities for the DNC. Fully 95% of their political contributions are made to Democrats.

"But if I quit my job, I won't be able to make as much money somewhere else.

So you're admitting you're overpaid....while you're asking for MORE money!

"But if we don't have a way to legally extort from our employers, they'll just turn it into a sweatshop."

And they'll have trouble retaining good employees, therefore their business will suffer. Then Spliffdaddy will open a similar business and offer decent wages - and I'll get all the talented employees so my business will make me rich.

Folks, there are federal laws which mandate working conditions, wages, and safety. You can thank labor unions for that. They created their own demise. Their time has passed. Today they exist in order to fund the Democratic National Convention, and for no other reason. I'm not exaggerating. The facts are so plain it would be pointless to argue.

I was a union member for over a decade. The stress involved in having the fate of your employment in the hands of unions is simply not worth it. I would have been better off negotiating my own contract - as would most good employees.

The best way I can show you how bad labor unions are is to ask how you can leave the union. Go ahead, ask. It would be easier to leave the mafia. Unions are cult-like.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Labor unions - the last great hope for the advancement of liberal ideology. After all, it's the epitome of the leftist mindset; "the world owes me something".
The AFL-CIO is one of the largest funding entities for the DNC. Fully 95% of their political contributions are made to Democrats.

"But if I quit my job, I won't be able to make as much money somewhere else.

So you're admitting you're overpaid....while you're asking for MORE money!

"But if we don't have a way to legally extort from our employers, they'll just turn it into a sweatshop."

And they'll have trouble retaining good employees, therefore their business will suffer. Then Spliffdaddy will open a similar business and offer decent wages - and I'll get all the talented employees so my business will make me rich.

Folks, there are federal laws which mandate working conditions, wages, and safety. You can thank labor unions for that. They created their own demise. Their time has passed. Today they exist in order to fund the Democratic National Convention, and for no other reason. I'm not exaggerating. The facts are so plain it would be pointless to argue.

I was a union member for over a decade. The stress involved in having the fate of your employment in the hands of unions is simply not worth it. I would have been better off negotiating my own contract - as would most good employees.

The best way I can show you how bad labor unions are is to ask how you can leave the union. Go ahead, ask. It would be easier to leave the mafia. Unions are cult-like.

Actually, unions appear so corrupted, that the looks of liberalism fails to hide how "right" they really are...

[Rolling Bones]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Labor unions - the last great hope for the advancement of liberal ideology. After all, it's the epitome of the leftist mindset; "the world owes me something".
The AFL-CIO is one of the largest funding entities for the DNC. Fully 95% of their political contributions are made to Democrats.

"But if I quit my job, I won't be able to make as much money somewhere else.

So you're admitting you're overpaid....while you're asking for MORE money!

"But if we don't have a way to legally extort from our employers, they'll just turn it into a sweatshop."

And they'll have trouble retaining good employees, therefore their business will suffer. Then Spliffdaddy will open a similar business and offer decent wages - and I'll get all the talented employees so my business will make me rich.

Folks, there are federal laws which mandate working conditions, wages, and safety. You can thank labor unions for that. They created their own demise. Their time has passed. Today they exist in order to fund the Democratic National Convention, and for no other reason. I'm not exaggerating. The facts are so plain it would be pointless to argue.

I was a union member for over a decade. The stress involved in having the fate of your employment in the hands of unions is simply not worth it. I would have been better off negotiating my own contract - as would most good employees.

The best way I can show you how bad labor unions are is to ask how you can leave the union. Go ahead, ask. It would be easier to leave the mafia. Unions are cult-like.

Pfft...

Unions are not all about money. There are lots of non-union jobs that pay way way more. But you know that. I know you are not stupid.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by macintologist

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/NY1ToGo/Story...id=1&aid=55748

Ughh, people like this make me sick.

If they hate their jobs so much as to warrant not showing up, why don't they f***** quit and let someone else take their place.

Unions are completely irrelevant seeing as how there are plenty of federal laws protecting workers from abuse. If you don't like your job, then QUIT!

What makes you think they hate their jobs?

It looks like the city wants to reduce pay for younger workers and turn the clock back on the pay scale and health care. The union retaliated with demands in the opposite direction. Hopefully they will meet somewhere in the middle.

A union is simply a group of workers who want a contract in regards to their working conditions, benefits, and pay. If an employer enters into that agreement they should be held responsible. Along with the employees.

All a union is is a group contract.

I NEVER thought I'd be on Rolling Bone's side of an argument, but he is correct on this topic.

And again, Macintologist posts a thread and runs. This time he atleast replied once. Why do you always do this in the political lounge Macintologist? Someone proved you wrong and you are loate to show your face again?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Labor unions - the last great hope for the advancement of liberal ideology. After all, it's the epitome of the leftist mindset; "the world owes me something".
The AFL-CIO is one of the largest funding entities for the DNC. Fully 95% of their political contributions are made to Democrats.

Wrong. A union simply asks for security and holds an employer honest. For the group. The union doesn't hire employees, the employer does. and a union will not defend a corrupt employee.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

"But if I quit my job, I won't be able to make as much money somewhere else.

So you're admitting you're overpaid....while you're asking for MORE money!

No one says that.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

"But if we don't have a way to legally extort from our employers, they'll just turn it into a sweatshop."

And they'll have trouble retaining good employees, therefore their business will suffer. Then Spliffdaddy will open a similar business and offer decent wages - and I'll get all the talented employees so my business will make me rich.

They aren't legally extorting. they are bargaining in good faith and holding their employer up to a legal contract that the employer legally entered in to. They didn't have to.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Folks, there are federal laws which mandate working conditions, wages, and safety. You can thank labor unions for that. They created their own demise.

Unions are still relavant. Look at the Air Line industry. Delphi ring a bell?

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

Their time has passed. Today they exist in order to fund the Democratic National Convention, and for no other reason. I'm not exaggerating. The facts are so plain it would be pointless to argue.

Not a penny of my union dues goes to the democracts. You can legally opt out of your union dues going towards political parties. If any union member's union dues goes towards the democrat party, they authorized it.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

I was a union member for over a decade. The stress involved in having the fate of your employment in the hands of unions is simply not worth it. I would have been better off negotiating my own contract - as would most good employees.

Of the last 10 bosses I have had one would have fired me for not working in an extremely unsafe condition. He wanted me to enter a 100 ton aluminium die cast press without locking it out and shutting the machine down. He gave me a direct order and after I refused to do it, he sent me home. This is against Federal law what he asked me to do. If the union had not entered into the situation and filed a grievance against that boss I would have lost my job with out anyone else in management the wiser. the plant president fired that boss after learning about the situation during the grievance hearing. I received a positive comment in my personnell file from the president.

Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy

The best way I can show you how bad labor unions are is to ask how you can leave the union. Go ahead, ask. It would be easier to leave the mafia. Unions are cult-like.

Wrong. I can opt out of paying my union dues and legally the union has an obligation to defend me. You have a court case if they don't. And they are very easy to win. Iv'e seen it done.

[Monique]

First I love American unions they are just great.

Two it is never simple to quit from a job and find another one. It is often luck when you can find a better job.

Third, I got lucky and found a government job and if it is needed I would go on strike in a New York minute.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by macintologist

http://www.ny1.com/ny1/NY1ToGo/Story...id=1&aid=55748



Ughh, people like this make me sick.

If they hate their jobs so much as to warrant not showing up, why don't they f***** quit and let someone else take their place.

Unions are completely irrelevant seeing as how there are plenty of federal laws protecting workers from abuse. If you don't like your job, then QUIT!

If enough people walk off a job, thats a sign something is wrong with the company not the workers. It takes to sides for a strike to happen, can just blame the unions.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Of the last 10 bosses I have had one would have fired me for not working in an extremely unsafe condition. He wanted me to enter a 100 ton aluminium die cast press without locking it out and shutting the machine down. He gave me a direct order and after I refused to do it, he sent me home. This is against Federal law what he asked me to do. If the union had not entered into the situation and filed a grievance against that boss I would have lost my job with out anyone else in management the wiser. the plant president fired that boss after learning about the situation during the grievance hearing. I received a positive comment in my personnell file from the president.

See, and without your union, you could have sued them, received a few years' salary and a nice vacation. Thank goodness your union got you a nice comment in your file!



The fact is that many unions have run amock, and there really isn't that much need for them anymore. They're anticompetitive - let the market decide the pay and benefits.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by wallinbl

See, and without your union, you could have sued them, received a few years' salary and a nice vacation. Thank goodness your union got you a nice comment in your file!

Um, no. But your ignorance is noted.

Originally Posted by wallinbl

The fact is that many unions have run amock, and there really isn't that much need for them anymore. They're anticompetitive - let the market decide the pay and benefits.

The market has a severe need for unions. Especially in today's market place. The more worker's rights get trampled like they are lately, the more justified unions are.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Um, no. But your ignorance is noted.

Either your sense of humor is broken or you don't live in America.

The market has a severe need for unions. Especially in today's market place. The more worker's rights get trampled like they are lately, the more justified unions are.

What rights are getting trampled? If they are rights, then they exist in law and there isn't much anyone can do about them. If they're justified, then let's put them into laws so that people without unions can benefit as well. Once we have that, then what else are the unions going to do? Drive up wages? I'd rather they didn't so I don't have to pay so much for stuff.

[finboy]

Originally Posted by Railroader

and a union will not defend a corrupt employee.

OMG, that's a fantasy.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by finboy

OMG, that's a fantasy.

Nope. A truth.

A union will not defend a corrupt employee as that would put them into possible legal consequences for supporting that employee.

[Athens]

Originally Posted by Railroader

Nope. A truth.

A union will not defend a corrupt employee as that would put them into possible legal consequences for supporting that employee.

That’s not totally true. A corrupt union might. There have been some cases of one Union, and I cant remember which one for sure but But I think it was a teamsters union that would support employee’s that stole and such. It actually gave unions a pretty bad name for it and one must wonder what the motives where in the whole mess.

[Railroader]

[QUOTE=wallinbl]Either your sense of humor is broken or you don't live in America.[quote] I guess I don't have a sense of humor as I do live in the USA. I don't get how your comment was humorous. Please explain your earlier comment in light of it's humorous nature. Here is the comment I am talking about:

See, and without your union, you could have sued them, received a few years' salary and a nice vacation. Thank goodness your union got you a nice comment in your file!

Originally Posted by wallinbl

What rights are getting trampled? If they are rights, then they exist in law and there isn't much anyone can do about them. If they're justified, then let's put them into laws so that people without unions can benefit as well.

Safety laws and retirement obligations are not being met by many companies. and when a worker is violated, not everyone can afford a lawyer to protect themselves. a union will defend a worker and make sure his rights are not violated.

Originally Posted by wallinbl

Once we have that, then what else are the unions going to do? Drive up wages? I'd rather they didn't so I don't have to pay so much for stuff.

You really need to educate yourself about unions. you seem to be completely ignorant to the benefits that the unions have brought to the modern day workforce. There are still many worker's rights that need to be protected by unions.

You like cheap goods? You like supporting companies that force 8 year olds to sew clothes and assemble products? You like supporting companies that avoid environmental laws and are destroying the world?

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Athens

That’s not totally true. A corrupt union might. There have been some cases of one Union, and I cant remember which one for sure but But I think it was a teamsters union that would support employee’s that stole and such. It actually gave unions a pretty bad name for it and one must wonder what the motives where in the whole mess.

If those allegations could be proven then the union would be disolved or fined heavily. A union will not take a chance of supporting illegal activity.

[Athens]

Well the argument was it was the union’s job to protect the member until proven guilty, even though it was clear he was. It was a complicated issue. Im just saying unions are not perfect, and there are always exceptions to rules. BTW Im a Union supporter so don't get me wrong... but nothing man made is perfect.

[Railroader]

Originally Posted by Athens

Well the argument was it was the union’s job to protect the member until proven guilty, even though it was clear he was. It was a complicated issue. Im just saying unions are not perfect, and there are always exceptions to rules. BTW Im a Union supporter so don't get me wrong... but nothing man made is perfect.

No, it is not "the union’s job to protect the member until proven guilty, even though it was clear he was". A co-worker of mine was recently fired (the weekend before Christmas) and arrested for stealing from work. He is a very active member of the union and the union is doing nothing to defend him. he has been "cut loose".

IF he is found not guilty in court, then the union will persue having his employment reinstated and back wages reimbursed (but reimbursement is HIGHLY unlikely).