[Tokencon]

It's clear from the words and actions of people like Al Franken, George Soros, John Fitzgerald Kerry, Hillary, most of Hollywood, et al., that Libbies truly HATE their country.

Why is that?

Tokie

[badidea]

Originally posted by Tokencon:
...
Why is that?

...

Bush?

[Face Ache]

http://www.aim.org/briefing/1642_0_5_0_C/

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Tokencon:
It's clear from the words and actions of people like Al Franken, George Soros, John Fitzgerald Kerry, Hillary, most of Hollywood, et al., that Libbies truly HATE their country.

Why is that?

Tokie

Most of the people I know who claim to hate this country claim to do so because of people like you.

[xi_hyperon]

Flamebait
Flamebait is a message posted to an Internet discussion group, such as a newsgroup or a mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame"). Various motives or explanations can be sought for this puzzling behavior; from a common sense point of view, the practice seems usually to be a cry for attention.

[Essex63110]

They are unpatriotic

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Flamebait
Flamebait is a message posted to an Internet discussion group, such as a newsgroup or a mailing list, with the intent of provoking an angry response (a "flame"). Various motives or explanations can be sought for this puzzling behavior; from a common sense point of view, the practice seems usually to be a cry for attention.

Actually, it was an honest response. I know several people who claim to hate this country. And pretty much every single one of them claims to hate it because of the 'idiot conservatives who are screwing things up'.

Of course if you actually look at things, they don't really hate the country at all. They may hate what the current government is doing, and they may hate the opinions of the majority of people here, but there's more to the country than that. This is what I was hoping to get at with the last post. 'American Libbies' don't hate this country. They may hate some of the people in it, and they may hate some of the things that are done in its name, but that is not the same thing as the country itself. In my opinion, people, both conservative and liberal, need to grow up and stop trying to make broad generalizations about their opposition that serve no productive purpose whatsoever and really just make the situation worse by further polarizing opinions.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Actually, it was an honest response. I know several people who claim to hate this country. And pretty much every single one of them claims to hate it because of the 'idiot conservatives who are screwing things up'.

Of course if you actually look at things, they don't really hate the country at all. They may hate what the current government is doing, and they may hate the opinions of the majority of people here, but there's more to the country than that. This is what I was hoping to get at with the last post. 'American Libbies' don't hate this country. They may hate some of the people in it, and they may hate some of the things that are done in its name, but that is not the same thing as the country itself. In my opinion, people, both conservative and liberal, need to grow up and stop trying to make broad generalizations about their opposition that serve no productive purpose whatsoever and really just make the situation worse by further polarizing opinions.

I was speaking to Tokencon, but thanks for the constructive response.

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
I was speaking to Tokencon, but thanks for the constructive response.

Oh. Hehe.

His post may be flamebait, but I think it addresses an important point. That point not being that liberals hate their country, but that conservatives have taken the position that anyone who disagrees with them must hate the US. A position which is, quite honestly, completely moronic.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by nonhuman:
Oh. Hehe.

His post may be flamebait, but I think it addresses an important point. That point not being that liberals hate their country, but that conservatives have taken the position that anyone who disagrees with them must hate the US. A position which is, quite honestly, completely moronic.

Yep, and I've called them on it in here. Once they get called on it, it usually stops for a whole day, then back to it once more. Every day is a new world for some.

[xi_hyperon]

dp

[MacGorilla]

I am a liberal and I love my country. I think I live in the greatest nation on Earth. No offense to those living in other nations.

[Developer]

Originally posted by MacGorilla:
I am a liberal and I love my country. I think I live in the greatest nation on Earth. No offense to those living in other nations.

In how many countries have you lived so far?

[Essex63110]

I am a liberal and I love my country. I think I live in the greatest nation on Earth. No offense to those living in other nations.

No offense, but why do you think so?
And I can just repeat what Developer had said: To how much countries have you already been?!

[Zimphire]

They want this country to be as cool and HIP as France. Too many conservatives in the country.

It makes them mad.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
They want this country to be as cool and HIP as France. Too many conservatives in the country.

It makes them mad.

Thank you for pointing out the fallacy in Tokencon's argument. Liberals may be mad at conservatives at times (and vice-versa), and that has nothing to do with one's love (or lack of) for one's country. Crying "you hate this country" is a stupid argument crafted for soundbites and ending debate between points of view.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Thank you for pointing out the fallacy in Tokencon's argument. Liberals may be mad at conservatives at times (and vice-versa), and that has nothing to do with one's love (or lack of) for one's country. Crying "you hate this country" is a stupid argument crafted for soundbites and ending debate between points of view.

No, I have had people tell me that they hate this country for that reason.

Not a fallacy.

I am not speaking about ALL liberals. But they ones I have spoken with that DO claim to hate this country, claim they hate it because it's not "progressive" enough.

They usually favor a "socialized" form of government too.

This may not be YOUR feelings. But there are people that feel this way.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
No, I have had people tell me that they hate this country for that reason.

Not a fallacy.

I am not speaking about ALL liberals. But they ones I have spoken with that DO claim to hate this country, claim they hate it because it's not "progressive" enough.

They usually favor a "socialized" form of government too.

This may not be YOUR feelings. But there are people that feel this way.

Unless you have taken a national survey which states otherwise, I would argue that most liberals don't feel that way. Your conversation with someone who says they hate this country (see nonhuman's post above - he makes a good point about this), does not support Tokencon's assertion. He/she used the plural form, "libbies", thereby implying liberals in general feel this way. That was his original flamebait post, and my point in response still stands. It is a stupid argument crafted for soundbites and ending debate between points of view.

[MacGorilla]

Originally posted by Developer:
In how many countries have you lived so far?

Three.

[Essex63110]

@Gorilla: Which one?

[OldManMac]

I'm a liberal, and I love this country. I don't hate anything or anybody. There are ideals, issues, and people I dislike, but I try not to waste energy hating. The person who started this thread is, quite obviously, one who hates a lot. He, at 44, still hasn't learned that one draws more flies with honey than with vinegar. How sad.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Unless you have taken a national survey which states otherwise, I would argue that most liberals don't feel that way. Your conversation with someone who says they hate this country (see nonhuman's post above - he makes a good point about this), does not support Tokencon's assertion. He/she used the plural form, "libbies", thereby implying liberals in general feel this way. That was his original flamebait post, and my point in response still stands. It is a stupid argument crafted for soundbites and ending debate between points of view.

I've met quite a few liberals that felt this way. Again, just because you do not, doesn't mean the ones that do, don't matter.

This isn't some conspiracy dreamed up by the right.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I've met quite a few liberals that felt this way. Again, just because you do not, doesn't mean the ones that do, don't matter.

This isn't some conspiracy dreamed up by the right.

You go right on believing in that conspiracy, and vouching for ludicrous generalizations. And I'll continue to take it seriously.

I'm sure there are conservatives who must hate this country too! In fact, I bet every country has citizens of various political leanings who hate their country! What's your point, besides trying to steer away from Tokencon's original flamebait?

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
You go right on believing in that conspiracy,

And you have a right to believe it's a conspiracy. Since I was told this by liberals, I guess they are the one that "started" it.

and vouching for ludicrous generalizations. And I'll continue to take it seriously.

I wasn't generalizing.

I was giving examples. I never said all liberals were like this.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:

And you have a right to believe it's a conspiracy. Since I was told this by liberals, I guess they are the one that "started" it.

I wasn't generalizing.

I was giving examples. I never said all liberals were like this. [/B]

That's certainly good. And my original response wasn't to you, but thanks for your input anyway.

[zigzag]

This is such a load of crap. Yes, there are liberals and leftists who complain about this country's politics and culture, but so do conservatives. CONSTANTLY. Indeed, when Clinton was in office, conservatives almost had a lock on the cultural pessimism market. You couldn't turn around without hearing about how the country was going down the tubes because there was too much permissiveness and multiculturalism and liberal media and yaddayaddayadda (did I mention liberal media?) There have always been people complaining about these things, it just reached a fever pitch during the Clinton era. My favorite example is William Bennett, who was busy writing "The Children's Book of Virtues" when he wasn't busy squandering millions at the crap tables. The only difference is that many conservatives want the country to be more like it was in 1955 (a lovely time when women and blacks and homos knew their place and you couldn't say "pregnant" on the air), and liberals want it to become more tolerant rather than less. Since liberals by their very nature tend to question the status quo, this works out in people's minds to "libs hate America", even though conservatives do just as much complaining.

Liberals need to learn that you can't always get what you want, and conservatives need to learn that change is an essential part of life.

[edited to read: "many conservatives . . . "]

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by zigzag:

The only difference is that conservatives want the country to be more like it was in 1955 (a lovely time when women and blacks and homos knew their place and you couldn't say "pregnant" on the air)

Originally posted by zigzag:

This is such a load of crap

[itai195]

While there are some radical liberals who do seem to hate this country, I think Token is guilty of grossly overgeneralizing as usual. John Kerry, Al Gore, and various other liberals certainly do not hate America. BTW, his middle name isn't Fitzgerald.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally posted by Tokencon:
It's clear from the words and actions of people like Al Franken, George Soros, John Fitzgerald Kerry, Hillary, most of Hollywood, et al., that Libbies truly HATE their country.

Why is that?

Tokie

Criticizing the government, even a Republican one, is not hating America. Were you critical of Clinton?

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by itai195:
While there are some radical liberals who do seem to hate this country, I think Token is guilty of grossly overgeneralizing as usual.

That was my point, but some will continue to bolster it by speaking of "conspiracies" and other quatch, regardless. It doesn't matter what the political persuasion, making such a statement only underlines that one has no real argument.

[macvillage.net]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
Thank you for pointing out the fallacy in Tokencon's argument. Liberals may be mad at conservatives at times (and vice-versa), and that has nothing to do with one's love (or lack of) for one's country. Crying "you hate this country" is a stupid argument crafted for soundbites and ending debate between points of view.

Your right.

But remember Zimph is pretty warped, so that 'conspiracy theory' makes him feel really good. It's like political masturbation.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But remember Zimph is pretty warped,

Is itai195 warped too? He agreed with what I said.

so that 'conspiracy theory' makes him feel really good. It's like political masturbation.

Eh? I never claimed liberals as a whole felt this way. I said there were some that did. And I have spoken with them.

Read what I said, don't jump to conclusions and knee-jerk

[itai195]

Originally posted by macvillage.net:
But remember Zimph is pretty warped, so that 'conspiracy theory' makes him feel really good. It's like political masturbation.

I think Zimph actually has the right idea, he's just not putting in terms that make it come across that way. I have heard from several liberals who do seem to hate this country. I wouldn't be surprised if there are far-right conservatives who also hate this country, but there aren't many of their kind around here.

[Will McGoonigle]

Originally posted by Tokencon:
It's clear from the words and actions of people like Al Franken, George Soros, John Fitzgerald Kerry, Hillary, most of Hollywood, et al., that Libbies truly HATE their country.

Why is that?

Tokie

People tend to criticize what they love the most. It's a protective parental attitude. You want your nation/partner/family to be better so you approach it seriously and harshly even.

Those who have out and out love and not a single negative feeling don't love their country/partner/etc. It's just something that makes them feel cozy for a while. It always ends up bad because whatever is wrong goes unnoticed or swept under the carpet. In their mind there is no room for improvement.

It's like gardening. A good gardener watches out for pests and weed more often than the good parts of the garden...they come naturally if the rest is taken care of.

[itai195]

Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
People tend to criticize what they love the most. It's a protective parental attitude. You want your nation/partner/family to be better so you approach it seriously and harshly even.

Even more than that, when you have a nation founded upon ideals I think the realistic thing to do is to realize that perfection is unachievable, but we should strive for it through constant change and improvement. You don't improve anything by ignoring problems.

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
This is a load of crap.

"I want to say this about my state: When Strom Thurmond ran for president, we voted for him. We're proud of it. And if the rest of the country had followed our lead, we wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years, either."

Trent Lott, 2002, on Thurmond's segregationist campaign


"Society has always regarded marital love as a sacred expression of the bond between a man and a woman . . . In part the erosion of these values has given way to a celebration of forms of expression most reject. We will resist the efforts of some to obtain government endorsement of homosexuality."

Ronald Reagan, 1984 (the same Reagan who, at Lott's invitation, announced his Presidential candidacy by advocating "state's rights" in Philadelphia, Mississippi, previously known only as the town where three civil rights workers had been murdered in the name of, ahem, "state's rights").


Just two quick examples of what I was talking about. I exaggerated - not all conservatives want a return to the culture of the 1950s, but a lot of them do. I grew up with them, and politicians like Reagan know how to pander to them.

The point is that, in the culture wars, conservatives mostly complain about change and liberals mostly complain about a lack of change. This works out to "liberals hate America." But one is no more or less valid than the other.

[BRussell]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The point is that, in the culture wars, conservatives mostly complain about change and liberals mostly complain about a lack of change. This works out to "liberals hate America." But one is no more or less valid than the other.

But I think your point is right that it's just as easy to accuse conservatives of hating America, because they tend to think America has changed too much. It's not hard to find quotes of Pat Robertson blaming certain segments of society for 9/11, for example. Conservatives constantly complain about various aspects of our culture - the media, the universities, Hollywood, intellectuals, etc. Those are no less aspects of America than the things that liberals complain about. So why do conservatives hate America?

[Will McGoonigle]

Originally posted by itai195:
Even more than that, when you have a nation founded upon ideals I think the realistic thing to do is to realize that perfection is unachievable, but we should strive for it through constant change and improvement. You don't improve anything by ignoring problems.

Right. The ideals are the seeds that are sown. The plants will grow beautifully, though not perfectly, as long as you keep the pests and the weeds at bay. They feed off the plants for their own benefit and not for that of the garden. Rightwingers tend to leech nations, not just their own, for their own benefit. But even the Left isn't perfect. There are some people who call themselves Liberals who make me sick. They are Liberals but simply people who think freedom means acting like complete irresponsible idiots to the detriment of others. I would put those people, freaks like Michael Jackson, on the Rightwing.

A true Lefty has strong family and cultural values, believes in freedom of speech but not the abuse of freedoms, and has strong responsibilities to every person, animal and nature.

A true Rightwinger believes in Pie in the Sky, Voodoo economics, pretentious moralism, and lies to hoard wealth - wealth for no purpose than to increase the size of egos for those who have sexual and emotional problems. Big big money sitting in an account for no reason at all.

[Will McGoonigle]

Originally posted by BRussell:
So why do conservatives hate America?

And why is it that American conservatives hate conservatives of nations like Iran when they are no different?

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by zigzag:
The point is that, in the culture wars, conservatives mostly complain about change and liberals mostly complain about a lack of change. This works out to "liberals hate America." But one is no more or less valid than the other.

What you posted is logical. Regardless, right now, Zimphire is off Googling for content to support his extraneous point that some liberals, somewhere around here, must hate the U.S.

[Will McGoonigle]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
What you posted is logical. Regardless, right now, Zimphire is off Googling for content to support his extraneous point that some liberals, somewhere around here, must hate the U.S.

Nah, he's gone to pray for our sins.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
A true Rightwinger believes in Pie in the Sky, Voodoo economics, pretentious moralism, and lies to hoard wealth - wealth for no purpose than to increase the size of egos for those who have sexual and emotional problems. Big big money sitting in an account for no reason at all.

Yeah buddy, keep repeating that.

We wont think you are narrow minded. I swear.

Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
And why is it that American conservatives hate conservatives of nations like Iran when they are no different?

No different? Are you kidding?

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
What you posted is logical.

And I agreed with it. What he posted went along with what I posted.

Regardless, right now, Zimphire is off Googling for content to support his extraneous point that some liberals, somewhere around here, must hate the U.S.

Some liberals do hate the US. I don't have to search Google.

Originally posted by Will McGoonigle:
Nah, he's gone to pray for our sins.

Wouldn't do you much good.

[xi_hyperon]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
Some liberals do hate the US. I don't have to search Google.

So you said numerous times in response to my original post, even though it has nothing to do with Tokencon's generalized assertion (hence my ribbing to you in the last post).

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by xi_hyperon:
So you said numerous times in response to my original post, even though it has nothing to do with Tokencon's generalized assertion (hence my ribbing to you in the last post).

I don't actually believe Token thinks ALL liberals think this way. Do you Token?

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

One thing is for certain, one hallmark of modern liberalism is certainly hatred.

Rather than shrugging off the title question, some have indeed responded with hate (and lame attempts to justify hating others merely for disagreeing with them).

That doesn't exactly disprove the initial question.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
Rather than shrugging off the title question, some have indeed responded with hate (and lame attempts to justify hating others merely for disagreeing with them).

I noticed that too.

[itai195]

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
One thing is for certain, one hallmark of modern liberalism is certainly hatred.

(Is that better?)

[PacHead]

[daimoni]

Originally posted by Tokencon:
It's clear from the words and actions of people like Al Franken, George Soros, John Fitzgerald Kerry, Hillary, most of Hollywood, et al., that Libbies truly HATE their country.

Why is that?

Tokie

Hmm... you sound awfully mixed up and confused.

You just listed a bunch of people who love their country.

[CRASH HARDDRIVE]

I think a more accurate question would have been: "Why do many liberals have so much venom and hatred for those they disagree with, while at the same time pretending to hold a monopoly on tolerance and compassion?"