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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > iPhone, iPad & iPod > iPhone 3G in Canada - Rogers Announces Plans

iPhone 3G in Canada - Rogers Announces Plans (Page 2)
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analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 1, 2008, 02:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
Same. And I really only use it to pull up videos I've already seen for others that haven't.
Exactly. I don't know what Eug is picturing his data usage is going be to that he needs to turn off images and 300 megs is going to be restrictive.

As someone who has had an iPhone for a year and 8 of his friends I can tell you the only real time you use EDGE/3G is for email, google maps and the odd website when you are walking down the street, on the bus or at grandma's house with no Wifi. With that most of my friends even find 10 megs more than enough. I never went over 50 megs when I went nuts.

300 megs a month is more than enough for me even if I start using chat and email tons of picts right from the phone.
     
Eug
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Jul 1, 2008, 04:48 PM
 
When you do email, are you using a mail app. or going through the net? Do you ever look at images?
     
jokell82  (op)
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Jul 1, 2008, 05:00 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
When you do email, are you using a mail app. or going through the net? Do you ever look at images?
I use gmail through the mail.app. Much less overhead that way. And of course I look at images - pull them up quite often.

I doubt I hit 300 megs a month, though, even though I have unlimited. I wonder how you could find out exactly how much you use...

Edit - Heh, just checked on my AT&T bill. I used 16 megs last month. And that's even with using mobile twitter/socialthing!/facebook on an almost daily basis.

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
mkerr64
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Jul 1, 2008, 05:57 PM
 
i agree, i wont need any more than 50 megs worth of data sent
R.I.P Steve Jobs
     
Eug
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Jul 1, 2008, 10:17 PM
 
Well, I've just surfed to a couple of pages and checked out their page sizes. 1 MB each.

Even this forum page is 600 KB. Furthermore, some of the Howard Forums guys say they hit well over 400 MB/mo regularly on their iPhones.

Also, when I had unlimited on my Sony Ericsson phone way back when, even on GPRS I hit 3-digit MB in a matter of days. That was tethered, but all I was doing was surfing some sites like this one, checking email (not thru a local client, but using the web client), and reading theglobeandmail.com, etc. BTW, many of their pages are over 1 MB too, although I wonder how much of those have flash ads taking up space.


Originally Posted by mkerr64 View Post
i agree, i wont need any more than 50 megs worth of data sent
I'm more concerned about data received.
     
Eug
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Jul 2, 2008, 09:55 AM
 
Heh. I just checked my last bill. After 9 pm, I used all of 4 minutes talk time. All the rest of my talk time would be classifed as anytime minutes with the Rogers plan.

In contrast, I believe the cut off for Fido is 7pm, and they offer per-second billing. The vast majority of my talk time is before 7 pm, but enough of it is after 7 pm that I could probably "get by" most of the time with the basic plan on Fido (but not necessarily Rogers).

However, there is no way in Hades that I'm going to be locked into a $67 mixed voice (with Caller ID) and data plan. I'd rather sign a contract for a $30 voice plan, and add data on top of that. In fact, I'm thinking that I'll see if I can simply forego data completely (after a couple of months), until Rogers gets its head out its ass and offers us a reasonably priced unlimited plan, something that its competition even in Canada is already offering.

Products and services / digital PCS / services / Personal Email, IM & Web 30 - TELUS Mobility - Ontario

Personal Email, IM & Web 30

Say it all when you combine a smartphone add-on with a voice rate plan of $30 or greater.

Monthly Fee: $30
Email: Unlimited
Instant Messaging: Unlimited
Web Browsing and Applications: Unlimited
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 2, 2008, 02:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
When you do email, are you using a mail app. or going through the net? Do you ever look at images?
I use the mail app and I'd say 30% of my emails have some sort of attachment as I am a designer so I am sending and receiving proofs all the time.

I also take lots of picts on the road and instantly sent them to people by email.

Seriously the 50 megs I use is not restricting myself at ALL. Remember I had unlimited for 3 months so I used it to my hearts content and the average was always 30-50 megs.

So far all my iPhone buddies are happy with 50 or 100 megs MAX.

I'm sure you'll find a way to download torrents over 3G the first day and use 800 megs and then calling the 300 "useless" for anyone.
     
Eug
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Jul 2, 2008, 03:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I use the mail app and I'd say 30% of my emails have some sort of attachment as I am a designer so I am sending and receiving proofs all the time.
1) You look at proofs on your iPhone?
2) Most of those would be on WiFi, no?
3) Isn't your data plan unlimited email anyway? ie. If you're using their mail app, that means all that data is not counted.

Anyways, looking around the HoFo forums it seems the range is about 100 MB to 700 MB there... which kinda makes sense given Rogers' iPhone-specific plans. They start at 400 MB and go up from there.

They say 400 MB (or 300 MB) is adequate, but for some of them it means having to specifically watch how much they use. That's pretty much what I expected.

EDIT:

According to this page, Rogers gives you unlimited email for the $30/300 MB plan under certain conditions. So your claim of < 100 MB usage may not be accurate. It's 100 MB plus possibly significantly more for email, but you don't pay for the extra email data.

Rogers.com-Wireless, Digital Cable, Hi-Speed Internet, Bundles

I guess the good news is that Rogers offers this.
( Last edited by Eug; Jul 2, 2008 at 03:59 PM. )
     
Eug
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Jul 2, 2008, 10:53 PM
 
globeandmail.com: The iPhone's cross-border price clash

Years ago, Rogers' cable division provoked a consumer revolt when it introduced negative option billing, a process that charged subscribers for new specialty services unless they opted out. The message from the company today is very different.

"We take customer feedback very seriously," said Liz Hamilton, a Rogers spokeswoman. The company says it stands behind its pricing plans, which have been developed based on how the company thinks its customers will use the device.

To help customers, Rogers will send them a message when they are at 80 per cent of capacity and again when they have used up their purchased capacity. That is similar to how Rogers Cable Inc. notifies its Internet subscribers when they are approaching their bandwidth caps. Customers will also be free to change their plans for either more or less data, without incurring a penalty or resetting their three-year contract, she said.
     
mkerr64
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Jul 2, 2008, 11:44 PM
 
I really hope Apple addresses this concern to Canadians before the release.
R.I.P Steve Jobs
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 3, 2008, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by mkerr64 View Post
I really hope Apple addresses this concern to Canadians before the release.
What can Apple possibly do about this? More to the point, what do they care?
     
chadpengar
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Jul 3, 2008, 01:10 AM
 
Look at the bright side. Norway's iPhone plans are much worse and some of the other European offerings are also as bad or worse.

Macworld | iPhone Central | Netcom details iPhone 3G plans in Norway

Their $79 plan is 100 min and 100mb and makes you pay like $700+ for the phone itself.
     
Eug
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Jul 3, 2008, 09:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
What can Apple possibly do about this? More to the point, what do they care?
I don't think Apple can do much, except to apply some nudging to the company brass. And why would they do it? Cuz the iPhone in Canada has become a public relations nightmare. Just about every newspaper and every TV station in the country is covering the story about crappy Rogers/Fido plans, and how the general public is irate. Apple Canada must be pissed.

But then again, there's always that old saying... No press is bad press.
     
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Jul 3, 2008, 09:24 AM
 
The iPhone hasn't become a public relations nightmare; Rogers' iPhone support, as easily compared to other service providers around the world, has become a public relations nightmare.

Honestly, I think Apple would like to see lower rates in order to sell more iPhones, but I think Rogers would prefer to not sell any iPhones rather than lower their rates. I'd be surprised if Apple is terribly upset at all.

Sure, Apple could simply say "unless you lower your rates, we're not letting you sell our phone", but then Apple would be the bad guy rather than Rogers if there were no iPhone in Canada.
( Last edited by Wiskedjak; Jul 3, 2008 at 09:30 AM. )
     
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Jul 3, 2008, 10:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
The iPhone hasn't become a public relations nightmare; Rogers' iPhone support, as easily compared to other service providers around the world, has become a public relations nightmare.
Sure it has. People are irate over the iPhone. That it's Rogers doing and not Apple's is beside the point.
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 3, 2008, 11:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Sure it has. People are irate over the iPhone. That it's Rogers doing and not Apple's is beside the point.
I don't know ... all the anger I see seems to be directed at Rogers, not Apple.
     
Eug
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Jul 3, 2008, 12:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
I don't know ... all the anger I see seems to be directed at Rogers, not Apple.
Most of the anger seems to be directed at Rogers, but there are lots out there wondering why Apple is staying completely mum about the whole thing.

It's still bad PR for Apple. So many people have been soured by this fiasco. ie. It certainly hasn't helped Apple, and I don't understand how anyone can think Apple has managed to come out 100% unscathed by this PR disaster, since staying mum means to some almost a quiet endorsement. I think the only way they can come out completely unscathed is if they make a statement asking Rogers to improve the plans, but I don't see that happening either because it would piss off all the telcos out there around the world (and not just Rogers).

In the end, I still think lots will buy, especially since Rogers backed off and has even started to add even further incentives (such as free services for a month as an intro, etc.). However, the sales numbers would likely have been even better for Apple, had Rogers not dropped the ball.

Apple is undoubtedly annoyed, but not annoyed enough to do anything about it, especially since doing something about it would annoy their other customers and they don't want to do that when Canada represents a comparatively small market to the US, and European and Asian countries.
     
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Jul 3, 2008, 01:04 PM
 
If Apple wants to respond, here's my recommendation: allow customers to buy an iPhone direct from Apple, at full cost. Then those buyers can purchase whatever phone plan they want.

Myself, I'd prefer an absolute minimum data plan, since I'm far more likely to read an ebook or listen to music than surf the web when I'm on the go.
     
Eug
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Jul 3, 2008, 01:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by lpkmckenna View Post
If Apple wants to respond, here's my recommendation: allow customers to buy an iPhone direct from Apple, at full cost. Then those buyers can purchase whatever phone plan they want.

Myself, I'd prefer an absolute minimum data plan, since I'm far more likely to read an ebook or listen to music than surf the web when I'm on the go.
You don't even have to get a data plan at all. Rogers said this after all the brouhaha.
     
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Jul 4, 2008, 01:34 AM
 
Originally Posted by chadpengar View Post
Look at the bright side. Norway's iPhone plans are much worse and some of the other European offerings are also as bad or worse.

Macworld | iPhone Central | Netcom details iPhone 3G plans in Norway

Their $79 plan is 100 min and 100mb and makes you pay like $700+ for the phone itself.
Well it is very bad indeed. And people started to complain about the plans. On the other hand you overlooked one important point. How much does it cost to receive a call in norway? How much does it cost to call your voice mail in Norway? How much does it cost to have basic features like double call, call forwarding, caller ID and such in Norway? If the answer is it's free like in every Country in Europe then you are trying to compare apples to oranges.
Once you eliminate all the major differences between the third world services you get in canada with the basic services you get in Europe then you can start comparing the prices.

Rogers should be broken into 2 or 3 competitors for the good of Canada and its internet economy.

The 3 years contract is an aberration. For people who come to the country for a year or 2, for any one whose work situation can change as well as for any company which starts on the market and tries to compete with the 1 monopolistic GSM provider.
I waited long enough on a pay as you go but I want to change my current phone now and I cannot get stuck with a 3 years contract... I will switch to Virgin Mobile and maybe I buy an iPod Touch, or stick to my Pocket PC...
Maybe when T-Mobiles comes to Canada I will switch to them but I will certainly never go back to Rogers / Fido. I shunned France Telecom and got rid of them, at home and in every company I worked in, for the same reasons; awful behavior and pricing in the past. Let's reward proactivity, there is no reason to reward reactivity, if they drop their prices after the competition starts it is already too late.

Now if you want to hurt you get for the money, get a plan and an iPhone and give it back before the 30 days are past.
     
Eug
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Jul 4, 2008, 08:32 AM
 
So I called Fido. I apparently can use my grandfathered plan (on Fido). It's voice-only $30 including 300 anytime minutes, some text messages, and Caller ID included.

Furthermore, according to the Fido CSR, as suspected I can sign up for the contract with that voice plan only, and add data independently. That means even if I decide drop data completely in the future, my contract remains intact. This is in contrast to the iPhone plans. You can't drop data on those, because it's a core part of the plan.

Curiously, the CSR made no mention of the $30 (or $30.01?) minimum for the voice plan (to avoid getting the $50 downgrade fee charged). That over $30 threshold is mentioned on Rogers website.

If you have subscribed to an iPhone Voice & Data Package or a Voice Price Plan with a Monthly Service Fee of more than $30, then a Price Plan Downgrade Fee of $50 will be applied to your invoice if, for any reason, you change to a Price Plan with a Monthly Service Fee of $30 or less at any time during the Service Agreement Term. A Price Plan Downgrade Fee will not be charged if your service is terminated prior to the end of the Service Agreement Term, although you will be subject to any applicable early cancellation fee.

I specifically asked about it, and that person said there was no such rule at Fido according to their instructions. Indeed, there is no such mention of that $30 number anywhere on the Fido iPhone site. Could this be another difference between Rogers and Fido? Or have the Fido website and CSR training just missed this piece of information?

In any case, assuming all this is true, I will sign up with my $30 voice plan on contract, and add the $30 data plan separately. Total cost:

$30 - 300 anytime minutes, text messaging, Caller ID
$6.95 - System access fee <-- bogus
$0.50 - 911 fee
$30 - 300 MB data <-- Changeable at any time, since it's not part of the contract.
--------
Total: $67.45 plus tax. It doesn't include Visual Voicemail, but who knows, maybe they'll include it anyway. However, if they don't, I don't really care. Normal voicemail is fine by me.

Contrast that to the basic iPhone plan:

$60 - 150 anytime minutes with unlimited minutes after 7 pm (or 9 pm on Rogers), and 75 text messages
$7 - Caller ID
$6.95 - System access fee <-- bogus
$0.50 - 911
--------
Total: $74.45 plus tax. That provides an extra 100 MB data, and unlimited minutes after 7 pm. Too bad the anytime minutes are so low though, for a higher price.
( Last edited by Eug; Jul 4, 2008 at 08:43 AM. )
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 4, 2008, 08:44 AM
 
Bell Canada has announced their rates for the Samsung Instinct. The Instinct may not be an iPhone killer, but Bell's rates certainly are Rogers killers ...
globeandmail.com: Bell undercuts iPhone plans with unlimited Instinct

Bell is asking $10 for an unlimited data plan, and this can be added to any voice plan. For $40/month (including the stupid system access charge) you can get 100 minutes of voice and unlimited data. No idea about text messaging.

Hopefully we're starting to see a bit of a shift in the Canadian cellular market.
     
Eug
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Jul 4, 2008, 09:30 AM
 
And you can get unlimited data on Telus for $30. One popular phone with that is the HTC Touch.

Too bad browsing on those phones apparently sucks ass.
     
Eug
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Jul 4, 2008, 10:33 AM
 
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 4, 2008, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
And you can get unlimited data on Telus for $30. One popular phone with that is the HTC Touch.

Too bad browsing on those phones apparently sucks ass.
It's pretty clear that these phones don't compare with the iPhone, but I'm far more interested in the rate plans being offered to compete with Rogers carrying the iPhone; when the frenzy over the iPhone starts to taper off the rate plans will remain and Roger will have had to adjust it's own rates to match those of Bell and Telus. It's then that I might consider getting an iPhone.
     
Eug
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Jul 4, 2008, 10:56 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
It's pretty clear that these phones don't compare with the iPhone, but I'm far more interested in the rate plans being offered to compete with Rogers carrying the iPhone; when the frenzy over the iPhone starts to taper off the rate plans will remain and Roger will have had to adjust it's own rates to match those of Bell and Telus. It's then that I might consider getting an iPhone.
That's why I won't sign a contract if it locks me into the $30 data plan, or even worse, the $60 or $75 combined voice/data plan (plus extra for Caller ID).

I'll sign with a voice plan alone, and get data separate from the contract. That way I'm free to keep the data plan after my initial test phase, or delete it altogether, or easily upgrade it at will if the rates come down.

Also, for those of you who don't have grandfathered plans like me and need more anytime minutes, you may want to consider the business plans. Apparently most are available to non-business customers as well.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 4, 2008, 03:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
1) You look at proofs on your iPhone?
2) Most of those would be on WiFi, no?
3) Isn't your data plan unlimited email anyway? ie. If you're using their mail app, that means all that data is not counted.

Anyways, looking around the HoFo forums it seems the range is about 100 MB to 700 MB there... which kinda makes sense given Rogers' iPhone-specific plans. They start at 400 MB and go up from there.
1) Yes. I reciver jpg proofs of the graphic design work I do for a living.
2) No almost all my email on the road is Edge.
3) My data plan WAS unlimited but I used the iPhone mail app and every bit of data counts as data. None of it is not counted because of whatever the hell I am doing.

HoFo forums is a cell phone junkie website. You really think the averages of data there is the norm? These are the same people that install opera on their phone and surf through GPRS 5 years ago.

Anyway, your own poll shows even in the US with unlimited data the average is under 100 megs (you should have listed under 50 megs also). We are all trying to convince you that is more than enough but you are hell bent on thinking that with 400 megs you have to turn off images somehow and run from Wifi hotspot to another to save on data. So you either have to decide you can't get the iPhone because of this 400 meg limit (and not willing to pay more even though you seem to think you need it) or just get an iPhone and see what reality actually is.

You still haven't mentioned where you expect to do all this 3G data when you have Wifi at home and at work and don't watch youtube over 3G when driving. Doesn't home, work and friends wifi cover 98% of an average day?
     
Eug
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Jul 4, 2008, 04:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
You still haven't mentioned where you expect to do all this 3G data when you have Wifi at home and at work and don't watch youtube over 3G when driving. Doesn't home, work and friends wifi cover 98% of an average day?
Whenever I go out of town (in Canada), I have no data access at all, unless I pay for WiFi.

And when I go to visit my mom in London (Ont.), which usually means staying the w/e or whatever, I have no WiFi at all, period, cuz she doesn't have any internet access. So it has to be EDGE or 3G data... or I just watch TV or whatever after she's gone to bed.

At work we do have WiFi, but it's spotty. In several of the meeting rooms, having 3G data support would be awesome.

Anyways, it sounds like 300 MB is probably going to be enough for me, judging by the poll... especially since I'm not willing to spend more than $30 a month for data anyway, and here you only get 300 MB for $30.


Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
HoFo forums is a cell phone junkie website. You really think the averages of data there is the norm?
Uh no, which is why I started this poll. However, I'm a bit of a cell phone junkie too, aren't you?
     
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Jul 5, 2008, 03:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
Gimmie a break, I have never seen ONE of either a Fido or Rogers Wifi hotspot and I am downtown and uptown every day. I am not going on a Wifi hunt to check my email or get directions.
http://www.canadianhotspot.ca/

Click on the Find a hotspot tab or type in the city name in the search box on the front page.
It's not going to be called "Rogers" or "Fido" hotspot but rather have the "hotspot" logo since it is an inter-carrier service. It looks like there are 119 in Vancouver, 223 in Toronto and even 30 in a smaller city like Victoria,BC.

You were saying?
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Eug
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Jul 6, 2008, 02:44 AM
 
For most people, those Hotspots are useless most of the time.

Most of us don't seek out Second Cup just to do a quick Google Maps search.

Meanwhile, on the front page of Yahoo!:

Canadians hopping mad over iPhone 3G rates
( Last edited by Eug; Jul 6, 2008 at 03:01 AM. )
     
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Jul 6, 2008, 08:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Eug View Post
Most of us don't seek out Second Cup just to do a quick Google Maps search.
Yep, I just head for an apartment building ... almost guaranteed that someone in that building will be sharing their wireless.
     
jokell82  (op)
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Jul 6, 2008, 06:34 PM
 
Well it looks like Apple may be doing something about it:
AppleInsider | Apple allegedly sanctioning Rogers for iPhone rates

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
Eug
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Jul 7, 2008, 10:26 AM
 
TheStar.com | sciencetech | Popular iPhone debuts this week

...the bigger story is how the Canadian version of the device features a triple lock that is the result of onerous contracts, technological locks and a legislative proposal from Industry Minister Jim Prentice that simultaneously locks consumers in, while locking the competition out.

Michael Geist holds the Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-commerce Law at the University of Ottawa, Faculty of Law. He can reached at [email protected] or online at Michael Geist - Blog.
     
analogue SPRINKLES
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Jul 7, 2008, 11:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by aristotles View Post
http://www.canadianhotspot.ca/

Click on the Find a hotspot tab or type in the city name in the search box on the front page.
It's not going to be called "Rogers" or "Fido" hotspot but rather have the "hotspot" logo since it is an inter-carrier service. It looks like there are 119 in Vancouver, 223 in Toronto and even 30 in a smaller city like Victoria,BC.

You were saying?
I wasn't "saying", i SAID that I have never seen a hotspot. Sure if I am sitting in some shop perhaps there might be one but who the hell wants to go looking just to get their email.
     
Eug
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Jul 7, 2008, 11:58 PM
 
Confirmed. Rogers will deactivate your data on our account if you request it. No chance of data overage this way.

P.S. It's reported that if you get an iPhone without a data plan there is no commission for the salesperson. This means that:

1) Rogers is really cheaping out for their employees.
2) Their employees are going to be pushing data plans, HARD.
     
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Jul 8, 2008, 09:16 AM
 
Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES View Post
I wasn't "saying", i SAID that I have never seen a hotspot. Sure if I am sitting in some shop perhaps there might be one but who the hell wants to go looking just to get their email.
You could always check the hotspot finder web-page while you're looking for a hotspot
     
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Jul 8, 2008, 09:46 AM
 
Doesn't mean a whole lot unless they also start to loosen the belt for Blackberry Enterprise Server data plans; 4MB/$25, 8MB/$40, 30MB/$60... these are positively stupid.

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
Bell Canada has announced their rates for the Samsung Instinct. The Instinct may not be an iPhone killer, but Bell's rates certainly are Rogers killers ...
globeandmail.com: Bell undercuts iPhone plans with unlimited Instinct

Bell is asking $10 for an unlimited data plan, and this can be added to any voice plan. For $40/month (including the stupid system access charge) you can get 100 minutes of voice and unlimited data. No idea about text messaging.

Hopefully we're starting to see a bit of a shift in the Canadian cellular market.
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kmkkid
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Jul 8, 2008, 12:57 PM
 
Apparently Apple stores in Canada are no longer going to sell the iphone, and Rogers will have very limited supplies.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...t_iphones.html


Hopefully this forces Rogers to change its rates, or Apple comes out with a CDMA version of the iPhone specifically for Canada.


I certainly will not be buying one on friday now, because I'm not going to be locked into a huge rate plan that's obviously going to change very shortly, or be locked into rogers for 3 more years if something else occurs.

Oh BTW. I was at a rogers store in my town yesterday, and the employee said pricing for rates and subsidies were not concrete at that point, and that pricing was most certainly going to change before friday. Maybe because of the above happening? Who knows though.
     
Eug
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Jul 8, 2008, 01:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by kmkkid View Post
Apparently Apple stores in Canada are no longer going to sell the iphone, and Rogers will have very limited supplies.

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...t_iphones.html
The Apple Store was never listed as a site to purchase Canadian iPhones. Right from the start, on Apple's site when you clicked on sites to buy it, it would list Rogers and Fido.

The article sounds fishy to me.
     
Kristianatiskin
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Jul 8, 2008, 06:01 PM
 
I found an update on http://www.runiediphone.com

that this has now gone to the house of commons in the form of a new bill
check it out and show your support for this to have Canadian Cell phone companies be forced to change.

http://www.davidmcguinty.com/english...s_d_acces.html
( Last edited by Kristianatiskin; Jul 9, 2008 at 10:58 AM. Reason: updating the links)
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gingrass
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Jul 8, 2008, 07:28 PM
 
This afternoon i got a call from guests service at Fido to ask me if I was pleased with the service received and I told them I was, until a few weeks ago when i learned about the iPhone voice and data prices, explaining the guy I was outraged and was thinking of moving to another carrier as I don't have any contract.

Fact is...Complaining is good, the guy gave me a 50$ credit for next month, so even though I won't get the iPhone from them as long as they offer these prices, i still save 50 bucks! And most of all, they lost 50 bucks because of that, if a lot of customers complain, they will see revenues fall and believe me, then they will think twice becaus any company thinks of their revenues first, thats their main purpose!

So complain people! It worked for me, should work for you!
     
Eug
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Jul 8, 2008, 08:10 PM
 
Kristianatiskin,

Please edit that link. It's screwing up the formatting.

Anyways, correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding was the main importance of C-555 was about the system access fee (and maybe the 911 fee). If true, the iPhone Rogers stuff wouldn't really apply here.
     
gingrass
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Jul 8, 2008, 08:18 PM
 
You're right Eug but when you think about it, these access fees bring your montly cost up, therefor in a way, are part of the montly pricing so whatever we get to be taken out of our montly bill..we'll take it!
     
lenny
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Jul 8, 2008, 10:30 PM
 
At the risk of sounding like I am defending Roger's, I have a bit of a problem with some of the complaints surrounding the issue of unlimited data.

Discussions on this topic seem full of questionable calculations about how many megabytes will be consumed by typical web browsing and email usage - usually along the lines of "I'll blast through 2GB in my first week". First of all, the only hard data I have seen on actual iPhone data usage seems to be coming from American iPhone users who are actually reporting that they rarely use 300MB in a month. This is probably because one of the unique things about the iPhone (and iPod touch) is that it has WiFi.

Sure it's galling to see the unlimited plans in the UK and US next to our option, but I can't say I have much indication that anyone has a clue what their real usage will be. I think few people would be able to predict with any kind of certainty how much data they'll use on a mobile device - this is part of why an unlimited plan is so appealing. The furor may blow over if it turns out that few users ever approach their limit, since many people will probably do much of their browsing over WiFi and I suspect that in mobile use you probably simply won't download as much heavy content as on a real computer. Comparing this phone to the Samsung Instinct, with unlimited 3G data, is a bit unfair since as far as I know the Instinct does not include WiFi (which I'd much rather use than 3G when available, due to speed) and all data must be downloaded on the 3G network.

Right now I have an iPod touch that I use a lot for email and web (over WiFi, obviously). There's no way I know of to monitor my data usage on this device, and it would surely increase some if it was on a 3G mobile network. As an upper limit, I dug into my Videotron statement for my cable internet access at home and found the following usage levels (including up and download - upload is typically around 1GB for all months):

April: 13.46GB
May: 11.93GB
June: 14.92GB

Keep in mind this is usage for two computers at home on a GigE local network, plus my iPod touch on WiFi.

This includes things like pulling very large media files (100's of MB) off servers for work, and downloading stuff like Apple's developer tools (a 2GB disk image). On the one hand, the usage figures above make Roger's limits kind of frightening since every month would go way over and the overage charges would be obscene. However I highly doubt my G3 network data usage would come anything close to the above amounts because 1) I would not be downloading huge files and 2) expect that a majority of my network usage on the iPhone would be over WiFi and not the G3 and 3) I would really rather be browsing on my laptop and desktop system and don't expect to flog the phone that extensively. Also worth noting that the above data usage values are for ***three*** people sharing that cable internet connection.

Sure the voice plan and contract suck, but people seem to forget you're getting an awesome mobile computer platform for a few hundred bucks and - yes it's cheaper in the US but so is a whole load of other stuff; while I'm not happy about it I'd go nuts if I worried about all the things that cost more here (Canada). I also used to pay $100/day per child for daycare when I lived in the US (yes, I used to live there) and now pay $7/day in Quebec so not everything is cheaper in the US (with what we save in daycare costs I could buy a lot of iPhones and pay for 3 year contracts).

Rogers is doing what any business can be expected to do - trying to make as much money as possible - anyone who thinks they are going to reduce profits for charitable motivations is dreaming. The have the phone we want and the network it needs, and no competition. I think the claims that those plans will crush mobile data usage might be greatly exaggerated (but I would still love it to be cheaper). Will be interesting to see how well the phone sells.

I expect my comments might be unpopular - just trying to add another perspective. By all means, badger Roger's to lower their rates!

L

PS I don't work for Roger's and don't really like the company
     
lenny
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:40 AM
 
Actually I checked further into my service plan for high-speed (cable) internet at home with Videotron. The high-speed internet package to which I subscribe has a limit of 20GB download plus 10GB up.

I expect a lot of people probably don't realize that their cable internet might also have a limit. Fortunately for me (see above post) my download usage falls well within the 20GB limit.

I think it's quite possible that for many iPhone users, they will never hit the cap - the situation could be quite like that for cable internet where there is a cap, but it's high enough that you won't approach it unless you are addicted to streaming huge videos and insist on doing this away from WiFi (which even at 3G speeds is likely to be a somewhat unsatisfying experience in anything more than small doses).

I have 811.n WiFi at home set up on an Airport Extreme - the browsing is ok on my iPod touch, but it's still annoyingly slow compared to my MacBook Pro on an ethernet connection (this could be a combination of bandwidth and slower rendering - not to mention the nice but still tiny screen on the iPod). 3G will be slower than 811.n WiFi - a nice advance for access on the road, but there's no way I'll spend hours browsing on the phone. For me it's partly about consolidating my PDA (the iPod touch) and cell phone and having the option to browse or send email anywhere in a pinch. I know there are road warriors out there who *will* spend hours in cafes browsing the web and watching YouTube but this is not me. I have buddies who are addicted to file-sharing networks and download dozens of full DVD's on their cable internet - I suspect that if I did this I'd blow my Videotron limit as well (they do have higher access plans - I never knew these existed until I looked yesterday).

I could easily just keep my iPod touch and Telus phone (also a horrible deal compared to what I used to get with Verizon in the US). I'm just getting sick of carrying two devices, and also admit that WiFi coverage just isn't enough anymore. WiFi is still where I would do most of my net access, but with increasing frequency there are key moments where I really wish I could send an email or access info on the web on the street. GPS and a camera would also be quite nice.

I guess my point is that it's interesting how cable internet actually has limits, but few people are aware of them and it's never prompted the same degree of public outrage as the iPhone data caps. The marketing and history of mobile data have been completely different, and it's become an emotional issue because ATT promoted their unlimited data plan so aggressively. Don't get me wrong - the voice minutes on the Roger's iPhone plans really are quite lousy. I suppose they consider it in terms of the whole package: a somewhat cheap (considering what you are getting) subsidized phone plus somewhat expensive voice minutes. The 3-year cost of this would be something like $4500 - it is a chunk of change, but I think a lot of people will still buy the phone.

Like anyone else, I'm only guessing about what real 3G iPhone data usage patterns might be. The true test will be whether or not legions of subscribers are hit with $1000 overage bills. I do hope Roger's improves their rate plans. Actually I'm looking forward to seeing some new GSM carriers in Canada (Globalive?)

L
     
Wiskedjak
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Jul 9, 2008, 08:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by lenny View Post
I think it's quite possible that for many iPhone users, they will never hit the cap
The problem isn't that the cap is too low; it's that the cap exists. In order to avoid extra charges, Rogers' data customers will now have to keep track of how many minutes they've used, how many texts they've sent and how many MBs they've consumed. I wonder if Rogers provides a means by which customers can track their usage ...?

How many YouTube videos would it take to hit the cap? How many songs downloaded from the iPhone iTunes? How many apps from the App store? Never mind all the services the iPhone can ping automatically for data.
     
lenny
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Jul 9, 2008, 09:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by Wiskedjak View Post
The problem isn't that the cap is too low; it's that the cap exists. In order to avoid extra charges, Rogers' data customers will now have to keep track of how many minutes they've used, how many texts they've sent and how many MBs they've consumed. I wonder if Rogers provides a means by which customers can track their usage ...?

How many YouTube videos would it take to hit the cap? How many songs downloaded from the iPhone iTunes? How many apps from the App store? Never mind all the services the iPhone can ping automatically for data.
I agree that having to think about a cap at all is a pain. However my point was that many people probably already have caps they don't even know about and, if it's high enough, it might not be an issue. The real question is whether Roger's caps are high enough (or for whom).

Apparently Roger's does send you a text message when you hit 80% usage and another at 100% (which seems reasonable). I still find it a bit slimy that (for data) they don't just provide an option where access shuts off at the limit until you explicitly reactivate it, so that you can make a conscious decision whether you want to incur overage charges rather than just blindly rack up the megabytes (and mega-dollars) - this should really be legislated as mandatory. However no provider does this (except for pay-as-you-go plans). It's as if they'd like to trick you into going over. Unfortunately this is a pretty standard (if scuzzball) business practice - credit card companies want you to borrow more money so they can charge you ridiculous interest; cell phone companies would love you to go over so they can charge overages (be interesting to know what profits are from this). They all play fast and loose with marketing to teeter just on the edge of ethically informing you just barely enough, but not too much, to prevent some people from getting in over their heads.

The really important thing to remember with this phone is that it has WiFi - I know that a lot of people will want to watch YouTube vids, or download songs on the bus or at Grandma's house on 3G. I suspect that, even on 3G, this type of usage will largely be a novelty and given the still limited speed (compared to cable) you just won't do it that much. Quite honestly I have bought a couple of songs from iTunes music store directly on my iPod touch at home on my fast 811.n WiFi network (fed by fast cable internet) and it was verging on painful. The iPod touch on WiFi is simply awesome for email and most web pages, and this is why at some point I will buy a 3G iPhone. As much as it's played up by Apple (and the mobile carrier's) marketing however, the bandwidth heavy media stuff is really just a novelty gimmick for me and it's just not that important compared with email, normal web browsing, and maps (maybe I'm showing my age).

Quite honestly (and based on many months experience with an iPod touch) I would rather have the iPhone with its 3G data cap but *with WiFi* than a Samsung Instinct with unlimited 3G data but no WiFi.

Thanks for the civilized reply to my admittedly provocative post,

L
     
jokell82  (op)
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Jul 9, 2008, 09:22 AM
 
I don't think the only issue is the data caps, though they are part of it. The other part is the absurdly low amount of minutes you get compared to AT&T, and the lack of what I would call basic features (you have to PAY for Caller ID?????).

All glory to the hypnotoad.
     
lenny
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Jul 9, 2008, 09:42 AM
 
Originally Posted by jokell82 View Post
I don't think the only issue is the data caps, though they are part of it. The other part is the absurdly low amount of minutes you get compared to AT&T, and the lack of what I would call basic features (you have to PAY for Caller ID?????).
This is indeed a rip-off. I think Roger's logic is that you are buying an expensive phone that they are subsidizing more than they usually do, and they have no qualms about recovering part of this cost in the voice plans (you can get lots of minutes, but it's expensive). They know how bad people want this phone.

I have lived in the US, and could quite easily get an ATT plan with north-american coverage. In fact when I moved to Canada I considered keeping my really cheap Verizon plan which I could use in Montreal without roaming on a north-am plan (no Canadian plan could come close to competing). The problem is that for my wife or co-workers to call me would be long distance (they could not give a 514 area code). I have also considered whether (with a US address I can use and US bank accounts and credit cards I still hold) to get an ATT iPhone with a north-american plan. In the end, for the moderate savings, I just don't think it's worth the hassle given that I would have a US area code, even I was sure I would avoid data roaming in Montreal where I live (and I'm not so sure I could avoid roaming fees). Also, even though I have US banking, it would still be more hassle to manage the account and pay bills. So ATT may well be cheaper, but not by enough of a margin to make it worth getting the phone from them instead of Rogers (at least for me).

As an amusing aside, when I moved to Canada the idiots at Verizon tried really hard to make me pay an early termination fee claiming they can still provide coverage in Canada (not sure if the moronic rep I spoke with knew it was a different country). It was only when a supervisor's manager finally conceded that they could not give me a local area code in Montreal that they let me out of the contract. I'm pretty sure that virtually any company will let you out without the fee it you can prove you are moving out of the country. Unfortunately awful customer service is a fact of life for many companies on both sides of the border (actually I have to say that Videotron has been quite good; in fact it's the first time I've consistently been able to reach tech support people who really know the Mac, and it's clear that the Mac platform is considered in their internal technical planning - I wish they could sell the iPhone).

As I have said in a previous post, a lot of things are indeed cheaper in the US, due to nothing other than market forces. However other things are horribly expensive in the US (healthcare? childcare?) and on the whole, even if get an iPhone under the current Roger's plans, I am waaaaay better off in Canada (don't get me wrong, I loved living in the US and miss it in many ways - it's just that each country has its pros and cons and you will go nuts if you focus on the cons; should note that I also pretty much had to work every contact I had just to find a pediatrician taking patients here in Quebec).

L
     
Eug
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Jul 9, 2008, 10:06 AM
 
Holy crap!

Fido has caved!!!11one

Effective July 11, and as a limited time promotional offer for customers
who activate until August 31, 2008 on a three year contract, a data-only
offering of 6GB of data for $30 per month is being made available that can be
added to any in-market voice plan. For example, with 6GB of data, iPhone 3G
users can visit 35,952 web pages, or send and receive 157,286 emails, or watch
6,292 minutes of YouTube videos each and every month.
     
 
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