[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

Wow, if this a real photo, this kills any chance she has left

Because Clinton wearing a rain coat must mean she is a witch and will melt when she touches water? Is that why she sticks her hand out to check for rain?

[hyteckit]

I honestly don't see why Clinton should quit now. The primaries almost done and June is here in a little over 2 weeks.

Neither Obama or Clinton have enough delegates to win. It's all on the superdelegates. That's what Clinton can hope for. If she can convince that she has a better chance against McCain than Obama does, it might swing the superdelegate votes to her.

[besson3c]

hyteckit: there are predictions that Obama will clinch by June 1st based on the rate of superdelegates that have come out for him lately, as well as add-ons, etc. Today, for instance, he added on another 6.

It is likely that Clinton will conceed on June 4th.

[Chongo]

updated delegate
http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign...rd.shtmltotals

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

updated delegate
http://election.cbsnews.com/campaign...rd.shtmltotals

There are better sources to get delegate totals from, such as:

Democratic Convention 2008
Election 2008: Presidential, Senate and House Races Updated Daily (a summary of several major media outlet delegate totals are at the bottom of this page)

[Big Mac]

I'm impressed by your devotion to Obama, besson, that causes you to respond instantly to most posts to this thread.

[peeb]

7 hours is 'instant'?

[Big Mac]

It seemed like every other post to the two threads on this topic were from besson.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I'm impressed by your devotion to Obama, besson, that causes you to respond instantly to most posts to this thread.

What does my delegate total URLs have to do with devotion to Obama?

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

It seemed like every other post to the two threads on this topic were from besson.

I guess you are devoted to not making much sense then?

[Chongo]

Obama picked up two more supers this morning, despite Billary's win last night
Clinton's W.Va. victory does little to slow Obama

[Wiskedjak]

Personally, I think Clinton has a better chance of defeating McCain than Obama, but if she continues to fight despite indication that the majority of Democrats don't want her I think neither of them has a chance. More disturbing are the Democrats who vote for Clinton because they believe Obama is a Muslim (and I wouldn't be surprised if they're simultaneously upset about the opinions of his Christian pastor ...)

[peeb]

Are you talking about Saddam Hussein O-Bomber?

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Personally, I think Clinton has a better chance of defeating McCain than Obama, but if she continues to fight despite indication that the majority of Democrats don't want her I think neither of them has a chance.

I talked about this before. (Can't remember if it was this thread or another.)

Perhaps she can sabotage Obama's run this way, and then she can go for the Democratic nomination in 2012. (2016 would probably be too late.)

P.S. It will be interesting to see what happens with Florida and Michigan on May 31.

[Chongo]

She will be as almost old as McCain is now in '16

[besson3c]

I honestly don't think that Hillary would stand a better chance against McCain:

1) She voted for the war

2) She cannot use experience as an argument in her favor to draw contrast between the candidates

3) McCain can use her taking money from lobbyists against her

4) Less age and charisma contrast

5) It will be slightly harder to paint McCain as "McSame" when Hillary does stuff such as advocate the gas tax holiday like McCain, or say that McCain has "crossed the threshold" necessary to make that 3 AM phone call when it comes to national security (or whatever it was that she said)

6) Her disregard of certain states

7) Her difficulties running her campaign

[vmarks]

Why should Hillary quit?

Obama hasn't been able to trump her well enough to get her out of the race. Why can't he seal the deal?

(1) is not a weakness. You need someone who knows more about foreign policy and defense than proposing to talk with Iran, firing someone in the campaign who talks with Hamas before you're elected, and threatening to bomb Pakistan for no real reason, and then taking back that threat. -- Seriously, her husband also bombed Iraq based on the best knowledge he had at the time, and despite the willingness to re-write history, isn't it just possible that her vote for the war was based upon her best knowledge at the time?

(2) Her experience is about nil. John McCain's experience is in violating the Constitution, saying he doesn't need the first amendment, and claiming he was getting the money out of politics. Take your pic.

(3) McCain can use her taking money from lobbyists (and China) against her, but McCain's hypocrisy over 'money in politics' can be used against him. Does Clinton have the judo to do it?

(4) Funny thing, charisma. If that's all it took, we'd get more hollywood in our elections.

(5) Johnson: It's time someone had the courage to stand up and say: I'm
against those things that everybody hates!
Jackson: Now, I respect my opponent. I think he's a good man. But,
quite frankly, I agree with everything he just said!
Fry: These are the candidates? They sound like clones.
[Squints] Wait a minute. They are clones!
Leela: Don't let their identical DNA fool you. They differ on some
key issues.
Johnson: I say your three cent titanium tax goes too far!
Jackson: And I say your three cent titanium tax doesn't go too far
enough!

(6) Don't worry, the American public always forgets.
We're nice and amnesiac that way.

(7) Again, Obama can't seem to beat her so much that she is forced out of the race. Why is that?

[besson3c]

Well:

1) People know who Hillary is, knew that Bill Clinton did a good job, and naturally assume that voting for Hillary would be a two-for-one

2) Some are swayed by her experience over change arguments

3) Some simply want a woman in office. My mother in law is like this. Some may not want a black man in office

4) Some might put value in the assorted gaffes: Obama being a muslim, his middle name, Wright, etc. There is not so much difference between the two on the positions alone for this to separate them, one of these issues might be enough to push them towards Clinton

5) Some might have fallen for Hillary's electability argument (which is silly, Obama has won over plenty of blue collar whites in other states)

There are all just theories though, of course. I can't account for people's voting preferences... After all, we elected Bush twice! However, I think I can make a good case against Hillary, as I've attempted to do. I do like her okay and think that she would probably do a pretty good job, I just think that Obama would be a stronger choice overall.

[Chongo]

We can also also ask the questions "Why can't Hillary get past Obama? Why didn't she close the deal after New Hampshire?"

[zerostar]

I think her major swing in attitude is a clear indication it is over and she knows it. I think that saying "voting for McCain over Obama would be a grave mistake" is clearly a bid for the VP slot. I don't think she will get it though

[besson3c]

I don't think she wants it either. She would have more power and possibly even influence as senate majority leader.

[Zeeb]

She's baaaaaaaack. . . looks like she might get some of the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Still trying to swoon those superdelegates. She simply does not quit. evar.

Sources: Dems could meet Florida, Michigan half way - CNN.com

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

She's baaaaaaaack. . . looks like she might get some of the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Still trying to swoon those superdelegates. She simply does not quit. evar.

Sources: Dems could meet Florida, Michigan half way - CNN.com

This is good news. Even with seating the Michigan and Florida delegates that were cast void, this does not put her ahead, but it does hopefully make the citizenry of these two states feel like they were a part of the process.

These two states deserve the outcome they received for going against the established rules, and Clinton has no ground to stand upon in trying to get the delegates seated in her favor since she agreed upon having these two states not count. However, with the political advantages out of the way as far as the math goes so that it doesn't decide the outcome of the primaries, this seems like good news. Florida may not vote for Obama in the general election, but Michigan might.

[olePigeon]

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

It also wouldn't be a problem if we just outlawed cars and all oil products, but the effects of such a ridiculous, unrealistic solution would be devastating. The issue is supply. We need supply.

The technology exists today and is being used today in many countries outside of the U.S. It doesn't have to happen immediately (it can't happen immediately), but there are immediate solutions to our oil problems that don't include drilling for more oil and raising dependency on foreign deposits.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

Really? Last I checked, avergage salaries were over $40K, with dynamite benfits and grand pension plans. My recently-retired mother (HS teacher 25+ years) will be receiving $50,000 annually until she dies. Nothing "sh*t" about that.

Many high school teachers and college professors make decent wages, but the job market is volatile pending state funding. If they're married, it makes it easier. As a single parent, it's extremely hard on a teacher (even high school.) K-12 teachers don't make a lot of money. My mom has been teaching for over 30 years as a K-12 teacher (usually 2nd grade), and gods if I could help her retire earlier I would. She's not going to be able to retire before she's 70, and that's an unfortunately common sight for single parent K-12 teachers. She makes around $30k a year, which makes her officially poor in San Jose. Having that kind of relative salary while being a single parent raising 4 kids doesn't cut it.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

It also wouldn't be a problem if we just outlawed cars and all oil products, but the effects of such a ridiculous, unrealistic solution would be devastating.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

I'm not going to stop anyone from lobbying. And if the market wants big cars, and the market is willing to buy big cars, I'm not going to restrict producers or buyers from doing business. together. Has something to do with freedom.

Driving is not a right. However, I wouldn't stop people from buying big cars, they just need to pay for it. If you're going to contribute more to a problem, then you need to pay more to fix it. Simple as that. Compromising the environment to subsidize people who can't afford to pay for large vehicles is not the way to go.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

What cuts are you referring to? If you're referring to federal, take a look at the chart and point out where these cuts occurred...

Funding cuts to education usually happen on the state level. Unfortunately any Federal funding doesn't provide enough, especially to schools that cater to students with special needs, or schools in low income area.

Did you know that No Child Left Behind includes scores from special education students? So if a school increases support for special education students, their funding goes down.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

The unions prevent schools from dismissing tenured teachers who are unproductive, and they prevent the best teachers from negotiating individually for top-dollar. Read some Steve Jobs quotes on the subject. He's right on.

There aren't just a couple people making decisions for everyone. It requires a vote by the local group and can be overturned by the district. [i]All[i] the teachers and staff are members of the Union. It's like a miniature Congress where everyone votes. The Super Intendant (and the board) can and do fire teachers without the Union if they give a good enough reason (often ratified by the state board and even the governor if it merits it.)

There are state and federal grants and bonuses for teachers that do an outstanding job.

You're taking rare exceptions from around the entire country as an example to remove the Union.

Originally Posted by spacefreak 

No way. Guiliani is pro-choice, and he had some gun control measures, but other than that, his solutions were conservative through and through.

Increased funding to police, fire, public works, and transportation. Seems he was well balanced in his conservative and progressive approach to the state.

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

(7) Again, Obama can't seem to beat her so much that she is forced out of the race. Why is that?

The last few states have been rather racist.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

The last few states have been rather racist.

Yeah those 93% of blacks who vote for obama should be charged with hate crimes. Over a whole quarter of them in North Carolina stated flat out race was their motivating factor in voting for Obama.

Friggin' racists.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by Zeeb 

She's baaaaaaaack. . . looks like she might get some of the delegates from Michigan and Florida. Still trying to swoon those superdelegates. She simply does not quit. evar.

Sources: Dems could meet Florida, Michigan half way - CNN.com

I'm not sure, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think the way they split up Michigan and only gave half votes hurt Hillary more than helped her.

With these extra votes, now Obahma will have enough votes to actually get the nomination. There was a chance that without these, that he wouldn't have had enough delegates.

I think I read that he is now 66 away from the required number of delegates.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

With these extra votes, now Obahma will have enough votes to actually get the nomination. There was a chance that without these, that he wouldn't have had enough delegates.

If you mean pledged delegates, no, even seating Michigan and Florida as it was, as Hillary wanted, wouldn't have given her the lead, even if all of the 3 remaining contests worked in her favor.

As far as pledged delegates go, it was game over for Hillary a long time ago, her argument was simply about courting superdelegates and flimsy arguments about electability in the general election.

In any other election, a 5 or 6% lead would be enough to project a winner... The only difference here is the superdelegate variable.

[Buckaroo]

I'm not following it close enough to say for sure, but from what I understand, a candidate has to have 2118 delegates to win the nomination. Without Florida and Michigan, I don't think Obama would have had enough even after the last few states.

What that forces the party to do, I don't have a clue.

If I'm correct, this takes away all of her negotiating power.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I'm not sure, I don't have the numbers in front of me, but I think the way they split up Michigan and only gave half votes hurt Hillary more than helped her.

With these extra votes, now Obahma will have enough votes to actually get the nomination. There was a chance that without these, that he wouldn't have had enough delegates.

I think I read that he is now 66 away from the required number of delegates.

What they did actually helped Hillary a little in the sense that the gap between them is now smaller, and Obama now is a bit further away from the total number needed than he was before. But it doesn't really change things substantively - he'll win in the next week just like he was going to before.

Now he needs 2118 and he's about 60 away, before this weekend he needed 2025 and he was about 40 away.

[Buckaroo]

Okay. The thing I was not aware of was that they raised the number of delegates required to win the nomination from 2025 to 2118.

[Buckaroo]

I haven't been watching that much on the new[s] concerning the election since the only choices are 3 Democrats.



Fixed

[besson3c]

Buckaroo: how is McCain a Democrat?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

I haven't been watching that much on the new concerning the election since the only choices are 3 Democrats.

lol at the disgruntled neocon.

[Chongo]

There are two neocoms runnings and one middle of the road populist, and it won't be over before the convention, despite what Pelosi says.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

lol at the disgruntled neocon.

Hey, libertarians and traditional conservatives have good reason to be disgruntled as well.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

There are two neocoms runnings and one middle of the road populist, and it won't be over before the convention, despite what Pelosi says.

Huh?

Nonsensical labels in aisle 4... Nonsensical labels in aisle 4, we need some assistance here!

[Chongo]

Neoconservative, Neocommunist.

[besson3c]

You guys are truly losing your edge in this neverending game of partisan football.

[Buckaroo]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Buckaroo: how is McCain a Democrat?

LiveLeak.com - McCain Entertained Idea Of Being Kerry's VP

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by olePigeon 

Many high school teachers and college professors make decent wages, but the job market is volatile pending state funding. If they're married, it makes it easier. As a single parent, it's extremely hard on a teacher (even high school.) K-12 teachers don't make a lot of money. My mom has been teaching for over 30 years as a K-12 teacher (usually 2nd grade), and gods if I could help her retire earlier I would. She's not going to be able to retire before she's 70, and that's an unfortunately common sight for single parent K-12 teachers. She makes around $30k a year, which makes her officially poor in San Jose. Having that kind of relative salary while being a single parent raising 4 kids doesn't cut it.

I don't know about other places as I have not studied this issue and I have lived in my area for a long time but I can tell you that many teachers around here don't make very much, and they don't deserve to. The schools are awful. Watching movies in class instead of actually teaching, discussing politics or sports or their favorite TV shows for entire periods instead of actually teaching. The lack of common sense and lack of motivation among these people never cease to amaze me.

I am, generally speaking, anti-union. I have been in the auto industry long enough to see the damage they can do. The UAW's current campaign against my company may yet join their lead pipe to our knees as well. Unions, among other things, protect the crappy employees more than the good ones. This is especially true for schools IMO.

Why shouldn't schools have more flexibility in regard to wages and benefits? Why is it so rare to see a teacher lose their job because they are crappy teachers?

[Kerrigan]

It looks like Hillary may take this thing all the way:

She says there will be no nominee on Tuesday.

Her lawyers and advisers are reserving the right to appeal the Florida/Michigan decision.

She now claims to lead in the "popular vote" (according to her own math, of course).

I really think that she is going to take this fight all the way to the Democrat Convention, where she will bring the full force of the Clinton political machine to bear in pressuring superdelegates to vote for her.

[TheWOAT]

I cant see how she would beat McCain in November. Turnout will be lower, black voters MIGHT abandon her husband again, and the press has equal disregard for her and McCain. Not to mention, the feeling that some will have that Clinton is a sore loser who "stole" the nomination from Obama. Her best bet is to keep hurting Obama (or stay alive long enough to let Obama keep hurting himself) and run again in 2012 as the tough "Grandma" type that doesnt take any **** from no one.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I don't know about other places as I have not studied this issue and I have lived in my area for a long time but I can tell you that many teachers around here don't make very much, and they don't deserve to. The schools are awful. Watching movies in class instead of actually teaching, discussing politics or sports or their favorite TV shows for entire periods instead of actually teaching. The lack of common sense and lack of motivation among these people never cease to amaze me.

I am, generally speaking, anti-union. I have been in the auto industry long enough to see the damage they can do. The UAW's current campaign against my company may yet join their lead pipe to our knees as well. Unions, among other things, protect the crappy employees more than the good ones. This is especially true for schools IMO.

Why shouldn't schools have more flexibility in regard to wages and benefits? Why is it so rare to see a teacher lose their job because they are crappy teachers?

I don't know, I think that crappy teachers should be fireable, but I hope you aren't trying to suggest that are education problems are simply the result of bad teachers and nothing more, because there is a lot more to it than just that.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Buckaroo 

LiveLeak.com - McCain Entertained Idea Of Being Kerry's VP

Yeah, and...?

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't know, I think that crappy teachers should be fireable, but I hope you aren't trying to suggest that are education problems are simply the result of bad teachers and nothing more, because there is a lot more to it than just that.

At this point, Clinton is doing nothing but damaging Obama. She cannot win and some of her supporters are creating an anti-Obama movement. She should recognize this and bow out if she is being honest about her stated desires to get a Dem into the White House. I wouldn't be surprised if she is staying in longer to kill Obama's chances of winning the general so that she'll get a shot in four years knowing that there won't be a Dem incumbent.

(This is not a specific knock on Clinton - I think that anyone that has gotten themselves into the position of being a legitimate shot at the Presidency probably has questionable morals and would do nearly anything to advance themselves. It's the proven way to get that far in politics.)

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

At this point, Clinton is doing nothing but damaging Obama. She cannot win and some of her supporters are creating an anti-Obama movement. She should recognize this and bow out if she is being honest about her stated desires to get a Dem into the White House. I wouldn't be surprised if she is staying in longer to kill Obama's chances of winning the general so that she'll get a shot in four years knowing that there won't be a Dem incumbent.

(This is not a specific knock on Clinton - I think that anyone that has gotten themselves into the position of being a legitimate shot at the Presidency probably has questionable morals and would do nearly anything to advance themselves. It's the proven way to get that far in politics.)

I'm not sure how this is in response to my post about teachers, but I do agree with this...

I think that most Hillary supporters will eventually come around and support Obama though. Some may not vote at all or may vote for McCain, but there is always this sort of effect whenever your candidate of choice bows out, I only hope it will be minimal, as there is little logical reason to vote McCain over Obama if you support Hillary and her positions, aside from the various assorted cult of personality sort of reasons.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I don't know, I think that crappy teachers should be fireable, but I hope you aren't trying to suggest that are education problems are simply the result of bad teachers and nothing more, because there is a lot more to it than just that.

No I'm not, the problem is pervasive.

I do think that the problem with teachers themselves is a big one though. There is this idea that, sort of like religion, we aren't supposed to criticize teachers. As if they are above reproach. Holding teachers accountable would be a good step in the right direction. Right now unless they are guilty of some major impropriety they are seemingly bulletproof.

Perhaps it's a problem with how our university's teach the teachers? I don't know. What I DO know is that so far NO ONE in politics seems to have a good idea on how to fix it.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

No I'm not, the problem is pervasive.

We agree on something

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

We agree on something

Oh, I think we agree on more than you think…