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You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > The OG Red Pill Blue Pill Choice VS Dune, GITS, and Blade Runner

The OG Red Pill Blue Pill Choice VS Dune, GITS, and Blade Runner
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andi*pandi
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Sep 8, 2021, 08:28 AM
 
https://thechoiceisyours.whatisthematrix.com/

thoughts? I'm glad I rewatched the original a few weeks ago... matrix 2 was also ok if I recall, but 3 was trash?
     
Laminar
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Sep 8, 2021, 09:51 AM
 
1 was groundbreaking. I watched in on VHS on a charter bus coming home from a school band trip or something on those little 10 inch TVs? Mind blowing. CGI in 2/3 was rough. Still got all 3 on Blu-Ray. I don't know if nostalgia would let me call any of them trash, but 1 and 2 were definitely more fun.
     
subego
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Sep 8, 2021, 02:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
school band trip
What instrument do you play?
     
Laminar
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Sep 8, 2021, 02:35 PM
 
Percussion. Could have been a chorus trip too? I can't think of another reason I would have been on a charter bus in '99.
     
subego
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Sep 8, 2021, 02:44 PM
 
Cool! Was it a marching band?

And do you still play?
     
Dex13
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Sep 8, 2021, 03:06 PM
 
matrix 3 is like godfather 3 ... it exists ... but we all silently agree you skip it
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 8, 2021, 07:58 PM
 
Oh boy, I don’t know if I even want to watch it. Here is the thing: in my mind, the Wachoski siblings did two great things in their life, the first Matrix move and Sense8. The latter got cancelled, great job, Netflix. (Sense8 was also a joint project with one of my other favorites, Bablyon 5 creator JMS.) I have strong, intense love for both. The concept of Sense8 is just amazing, both, as a TV series (displaying life as it is around the globe, including in countries where we usually don’t hear a lot from) and the overarching message (global connectedness).

I still know where I watched Matrix for the first time. The story was mind-bending, although I would have preferred that humans were the CPUs for the machines as human brains are the most efficient processors on planet earth rather than being batteries (which makes no sense). The special effects were breathtaking at the time. Parts 2 and especially 3 were infuriatingly stupid, what a waste. Watching them made me angry.

@Dex13
I don’t agree that Godfather 3 is nowhere near of the same class. The thing is that Godfather 1 and Godfather 2 are some of the best movies of all time. Godfather 2 is one of the few movies where you can make a legitimate argument that it is better than the first part. Ultimately, we don’t have to agree, but I think you can also agree that this argument has merit. Godfather 3 just was nowhere near as good. If you disregard that parts 1 and 2 exist, it was an ok movie, not great, but IMHO not bad as in Matrix 3 bad. I don’t care for and about Godfather 3, but the existence of Matrix 2 and 3 still makes me angry.
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subego
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Sep 8, 2021, 09:48 PM
 
On my initial watching of The Godfather II I thought it was on a similar plane as the first.

The second time it left me cold. The De Niro stuff was good, but Pacino had already become a scenery chewer.



Trying to see how long I can avoid the actual topic.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 8, 2021, 11:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
On my initial watching of The Godfather II I thought it was on a similar plane as the first.

The second time it left me cold. The De Niro stuff was good, but Pacino had already become a scenery chewer.
I think one thing that is kinda marmite about the second one is the very peculiar narrative structure, where you go back and forth in time. It also has a different flavor than the first part, where it is the story of a boy scout turning into a ruthless mob boss who has to figure out who is out there to get him. The second contrasts and compares the story of the father with the story of the son, fraying family bonds (Michael's relationship to his wife, his brother and his step brother, etc.), etc.

The closest comparison I can think of where I am on the opposite end is Pulp Fiction — I don't care much for it in the sense I don't enjoy watching it. I know why other people think it is a great movie, and I can see why. Its story telling techniques and visuals are great, it has pithy lines, etc. But it doesn't click. I reckon many people feel the same way about Godfather 2.

Oh yes, I am also trying to avoid the discussion. I know that I will end up watching the unnamed movie, but I am very skeptical and try not to get my hopes up.

Oh, and if you further want to avoid discussing the unnamed movie, let me defend why obviously Inglorious Bastards is the best Tarantino Movie of all time, not Pulp Fiction or Kill Bill 1. Also, should we consider Kill Bill 1 + 2 as one movie or two separate movie. (See, I'm really trying.)
( Last edited by OreoCookie; Sep 8, 2021 at 11:57 PM. )
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subego
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Sep 9, 2021, 12:11 AM
 
I’ll fully admit my memory is a little hazy, but the structure is one of the things I remember liking about Godfather II.

Speaking of structure, the best Tarantino movie is Reservoir Dogs.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2021, 02:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Speaking of structure, the best Tarantino movie is Reservoir Dogs.
Blasphemy!
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 9, 2021, 03:38 AM
 
Weirdly, I have never seen Godfather 2 or 3 and I saw 1 so long ago I remember basically nothing about it to the point I'm not sure I saw it all the way through. I will be getting to 1 & 2 sooner or later as I started working my way through every best picture Oscar winner recently.

I feel people had the same reaction to Alien3 because the first two are so great. Alien3 isn't a bad movie, the worst thing you can say is that its a little similar to the first one, but its not a bad movie. Great director, great cast, just not a mind-blowing expansion of the Alienverse like Aliens was.

As for the Matrix, I worked in a cinema when it came out and to say we were all excited about its for months in advance is a massive understatement. I don't think I've been very excited at all for an upcoming movie since '99, used t happen all the time as a kid. Having been burned by Independence Day and then Phantom Menace (I don't hate it as much as most people do), I guess I lost that level of excitement for movies.
I don't remember much of Matrix 2 and nothing about 3. I saw them, I have had no inclination to watch them since. The original I saw many times when it came out. I too would change certain details if it were up to me, but it was a great movie and did not disappoint. I don't even remember what happens in the other two except the guys from Bros with dreads, a crazy highway chase and something about Zion. Oh and the orgasm cake.


Going back to best picture winners, its amazing some of the films that are not on that list.

Going back to anticipating new movies, I'm keen to see Dune.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Thorzdad
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Sep 9, 2021, 10:54 AM
 
Here's the trailer.

     
andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 9, 2021, 12:41 PM
 
well then.

I wish it had been a shorter trailer because while it does look cool there's too much info.

hmm.
     
subego
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Sep 9, 2021, 01:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Alien3
Someone brought their 5-year-old when I saw this.

If I remember right, they first started bawling when the guy gets shredded by the industrial fan. They took the kid out of the theatre to calm them down, and then came back right as the puppy explodes.

Not a bad movie. Gets a point taken off for no pulse rifles, and monster POV shots, which is a cheesy horror trope the series had avoided up to that point.
     
MacNNFamous
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Sep 9, 2021, 03:34 PM
 
I don't watch trailers, they tend to ruin movies for me. I'm one of hte like 5 people that enjoyed all 3 films... man I still remember getting my first Rev D lime iMac back in 99, and running a hotline server, and collecting movies that weren't even out on DVD yet. Matrix was one of my first ones, still have it burned to 2 CDs somewhere. lol.

Also, alien 3 was dope. Loved the first showing of a xenomorph in a non human host.

It true that Lawrence Fishborne isn't in this one?
     
Chongo
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Sep 9, 2021, 03:55 PM
 
What if.....
45/47
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 9, 2021, 04:11 PM
 
The best Tarantino movie is very clearly and obviously Jackie Brown. /offtopic
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subego
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Sep 9, 2021, 10:22 PM
 
That’s one of the ones I haven’t seen.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 9, 2021, 10:48 PM
 
How is this possible? You like movies and Tarantino yet you’ve never seen Jackie Brown? Is there a way I can post a GoT shame gif or something?
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OreoCookie
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Sep 9, 2021, 10:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
That’s one of the ones I haven’t seen.
Same here. Is it any good?

I also saw the original Dune only this year. It definitely had a Blade Runner vibe to it in that it was a very peculiar movie, and I could see how people wouldn't like it. The new Dune remake is actually one of the few movies I got excited about.

What I did watch promptly was the Matrix 4 trailer. I am hesitant. The images all look very pretty, but that isn't a high bar. I hope the story doesn't suck.
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subego
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Sep 9, 2021, 11:23 PM
 
Do you mean like the theatrical release of the first Blade Runner (i.e., voiceovers the director didn’t want)?
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 10, 2021, 12:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Do you mean like the theatrical release of the first Blade Runner (i.e., voiceovers the director didn’t want)?
To be honest, I don‘t know which version I watched first or that I checked. I liked it alright, but I don‘t love it. I‘m more of a Ghost in the Shell fanatic.
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subego
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Sep 10, 2021, 03:12 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I‘m more of a Ghost in the Shell fanatic.
Well, that movie kinda blew. The anime is great, though.

I first saw Blade Runner when it came out, so it had 14 years to bake in as the archetypal cyberpunk for me before Ghost in the Shell could make an impression.


Edit: Dune is a deeply, deeply flawed movie, but has some fantastic parts. The sets and costumes are epic.
     
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Sep 10, 2021, 05:29 AM
 
I really like the Lynch version of Dune. Having completely immersed myself in the books as a teen, it was obviously "inspired by", rather than an actual adaptation. But in itself, I think it's great surreal entertainment.

The HBO series are great IMO — very close to the story, good characters, and the oddly lo-fi effects aesthetic makes suspension of disbelief easier and works well for most of the material (almost like making something anime puts it in a different universe where anything is possible).

I'm really excited to see what Villeneuve has done with it.

As for Blade Runner, I can't keep track of which version of what cut is which — I've seen a bunch, and I've loved them all.

I still haven't seen 2049, but I'm waiting for a cinematic double feature with the original on that one.

I'm not holding my breath on Matrix 4. The disappointment of 2 & 3 runs too deep — it was the first new universe I got genuinely giddy over since the original Star Wars trilogy. At least *that* made it through a whole trilogy before destroying its own premise.
     
Thorzdad
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Sep 10, 2021, 08:18 AM
 
My wife and I went to the movies one evening. I can't even remember what it was we intended to see, but it was sold-out, so we opted to get tickets for this new sci-fi film neither of us had heard anything about, Blade Runner. Man, what a great choice. Totally blew us away. Hated the voice-over narration, though. It's one of the few films I ever saw that was genuinely improved by later director's cut(s).

FWIW, I saw the first Star Wars movie in much the same way...Just kind of decided to go see a movie one afternoon with a friend, and we opted to check-out this new movie we didn't know much about called Star Wars. We drove over to the theater, got tickets, sat down, and enjoyed the premier showing with only about two-dozen other people in the theater. Blown. Away. Went back to see it again that same night and the line was out into the parking lot.

I'm not holding my breath on this new Matrix movie. It looks almost as messy as 2 and 3 were.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 10, 2021, 10:49 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot View Post
I really like the Lynch version of Dune. Having completely immersed myself in the books as a teen, it was obviously "inspired by", rather than an actual adaptation. But in itself, I think it's great surreal entertainment.

The HBO series are great IMO — very close to the story, good characters, and the oddly lo-fi effects aesthetic makes suspension of disbelief easier and works well for most of the material (almost like making something anime puts it in a different universe where anything is possible).

I'm really excited to see what Villeneuve has done with it.

As for Blade Runner, I can't keep track of which version of what cut is which — I've seen a bunch, and I've loved them all.

I still haven't seen 2049, but I'm waiting for a cinematic double feature with the original on that one.

I'm not holding my breath on Matrix 4. The disappointment of 2 & 3 runs too deep — it was the first new universe I got genuinely giddy over since the original Star Wars trilogy. At least *that* made it through a whole trilogy before destroying its own premise.
Bah! People wonder why incredible movies like Blade Runner 2049 are such a commercial failure and will soon not be made any more…..you’re a Blade Runner fan and you didn’t see it!! Sheesh man.

I built a home theatre system just to watch the 2049 4K release, hahaha. Still have to get a bigger TV and my room only allows me to do 5.1.2 speaker configuration, but I put in some nice speakers and the movie is absolutely incredible in Atmos. In fact I got tinnitus shortly thereafter which I falsely attribute to that one house-shaking night….we farmed the kids off with the grandparents and watched A Quiet Place and BR2049 back-to-back at receiver-soul-sucking theatre volumes. Bad decisions, fun nights…..

I’m a massive Villeneuve fanboy, but hearing the new Dune is quietly getting some mixed reviews…I’m avoiding reading anything until it hits the theatres, though. Unless studios start pulling releases again, it’s shaping up to be quite the movie fall!
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subego
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Sep 10, 2021, 12:28 PM
 
2049 was my excuse to go 4K.

The irony was I didn’t like it all that much when I saw it in the theatre, but it was pretty enough I wanted to upgrade anyway.

Luckily, I enjoyed it a ton more on my second viewing.
     
andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 10, 2021, 12:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
What if.....
I was waiting for NotNeo to push over the cubicle wall, then keep leaning backwards as the cubicle wall burst through reality and fell down a cliff.
     
Laminar
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Sep 10, 2021, 03:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
watched A Quiet Place
Wife and kids were gone for the night. I grabbed this one from Redbox and cranked up the volume and it was a WILD RIDE.

I'm still blown away by how much better Blu-Rays sound than any streaming source.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 11, 2021, 04:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, that movie kinda blew. The anime is great, though.
What real action movie?
I honestly wasn't even thinking of that. To me it is especially the first movie and the two seasons of Stand Alone Complex, then the other two movies and lastly the newest series. The soundtracks are all fantastic, too, by far beating out most proper movies.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I first saw Blade Runner when it came out, so it had 14 years to bake in as the archetypal cyberpunk for me before Ghost in the Shell could make an impression.
I watched GITS before Blade Runner, so it was the reverse for me. But I really like the cyberpunk genre. Blade Runner had great visuals,
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Edit: Dune is a deeply, deeply flawed movie, but has some fantastic parts. The sets and costumes are epic.
Yes, and I think if I didn't know the backstory I would have been harsher. I hope the remake manages to succeed where the first film failed. You are right about the sets and the costumes. Another thing to keep in mind is that the special effects were cutting edge, with emphasis on were. That's another thing we need to keep in mind when we judge movies.

PS Thanks to watching random videos on youtube, I found out Patrick Stewart was completely oblivious as to who Sting was. “You play in a police band?!?” :rofl:
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subego
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Sep 11, 2021, 01:26 PM
 
The plan with Dune was to make it a Star Wars grade franchise. They spent the same amount of money on it as Return of the Jedi, and then hyped it like it was a Star Wars movie.

That was what 13-year-old me was expecting when I walked into the theater. What I got was… something else.
     
andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 12, 2021, 11:16 AM
 
Well there are how many dune books? so you could see the dollar signs in their eyes.
     
subego
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Sep 12, 2021, 12:36 PM
 
Oh, totally… then they put Lynch in charge, and let him make a Lynch movie, the antithesis of mass appeal.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 13, 2021, 07:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
Wife and kids were gone for the night. I grabbed this one from Redbox and cranked up the volume and it was a WILD RIDE.

I'm still blown away by how much better Blu-Rays sound than any streaming source.
Yeah, it’s a fantastic use of minimal audio. BR2049 is basically the opposite with humongous score and dense/aggressive audio. It was a great back-to-back test for the new Atmos setup.

Physical is definitely better vs streaming services. AppleTV in particular uses a compression codec for all Atmos, and it makes a surprising difference for the worst when you compare to a Blu-Ray. I get the Blu-Rays and rip them directly—for example I suspect BR2049 4K is probably about 12-14 gigs from Netflix, but my BR rip is somewhere around 90gigs I think. Then I put it on my local Plex server and direct-play via Plex client on NVIDIA Shield Pro, which doesn’t automatically compress anything. It’s a bit of a process and the LAN load for that much data transfer is pretty high, so you probably need to plug in—I’m not sure if it would work well with one of the faster Wifis, but it would probably be touch and go. But the result is very very close to physical media while still having the all-in-one-spot Plex interface, which I like.
( Last edited by ShortcutToMoncton; Sep 13, 2021 at 08:42 AM. )
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ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 13, 2021, 12:56 PM
 
As well, being honest on Matrix: the first movie is fantastic and deserves all groundbreaking accolades.

Nothing the Wachowskis have done since that time indicate that this new version will be anything nearly as good. They’ve had plenty of opportunities, but have not made anything great. “Good but flawed” is the best they’ve been able to reach, and even that has been a rare occurrence.

Even though the trailer looks good—has White Rabbit ever not been awesome?—it still has hints of messy plot/character shenanigans that have consistently held the Wachowskis back IMO. I’m going to keep my expectations in check here.
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andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 13, 2021, 05:17 PM
 
My only quibble with the first matrix is that it had to end with the trope of the girl kissing the guy, after having known each other for like 2 days, and the world is at stake... surely there's something more important to do?
     
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Sep 13, 2021, 06:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
Nothing the Wachowskis have done since that time indicate that this new version will be anything nearly as good.
Maybe I’m alone here, but I think Sens8 is on par. You just have to be patient in the beginning so that you keep all the characters straight. Stories, sets, set in different cultures.
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Sep 13, 2021, 06:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Someone brought their 5-year-old when I saw this.
When we saw Tim Burton’s Batman there were tons of kids in the audience. Little kids whose parents brought them. I guess they had no idea about the graphic novels and thought it was going to be super camp like the TV show.

I had read Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep long before anyone thought they could make a movie of it. I saw only basic similarities between the book (amazingly philosophical and downright weird as only Phillip K. Dick could be) and the movie. But I was enrapt by the movie’s layers and complexity. I’ve rewatched it many times. It’s one of only a few films I have had on VHS, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. I have hopes of “getting it” some day.

And just because I’m talking about the author, Phillip K. Dick’s Ubik is a really intense, extremely odd story. I highly recommend it.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 13, 2021, 10:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Maybe I’m alone here, but I think Sens8 is on par. You just have to be patient in the beginning so that you keep all the characters straight. Stories, sets, set in different cultures.
I mean I’m not going to say you’re alone here…but you are?

I didn’t have the patience to make it through the middling first season, but in fairness I heard the second season was better? But again—“good with flaws”.
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subego
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Sep 13, 2021, 10:46 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
The [GitS] soundtracks are all fantastic, too, by far beating out most proper movies.
I forgot to mention, I have the soundtrack to the original animated movie, and it is indeed fantastic.

Except… there’s that one Jpop track they tack on at the end. It’s not even bad, I guess, but it’s so gratingly out of sync with the rest of it.
     
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Sep 14, 2021, 02:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton View Post
I mean I’m not going to say you’re alone here…but you are?

I didn’t have the patience to make it through the middling first season, but in fairness I heard the second season was better? But again—“good with flaws”.
Once you got into the groove, it is glorious. The first episode was discombobulated and in part slow. But once you understood that this was on purpose and you can keep the characters straight in your head, it really changes the viewing experience. It is definitely a show where you can get something out of rewatching it. I understand that it is marmite, and in no small part that is because you have 8 (!) protagonists with lots of additional, prominently featured minor characters and a good main villain. That’s ambitious.

I loved it and I know other people who do. I love that the whole show centers around connectedness. That it is truly global with sets in not just in the US, but Africa, India, Iceland, Mexico, Germany and Korea. It features problems that aren’t on our Western minds (e. g. AIDS medication in Africa, religious violence in India, etc.). And the characters are great, too. (Not that I love them all equally, but they are great.) What I loved also was that the series had a five-season story arc worked out in advance (this is a trademark of JMS), but of course, the series was killed after two seasons. So the ending is a bit abrupt, albeit still satisfying. And Netflix added a two-hour movie as an apology to vocal fans — not enough!

But I’ll take “good with flaws.” 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I forgot to mention, I have the soundtrack to the original animated movie, and it is indeed fantastic.

Except… there’s that one Jpop track they tack on at the end. It’s not even bad, I guess, but it’s so gratingly out of sync with the rest of it.
GITS is a bit quirky. The theme song of the first animated series is in Russian, for example. And you have a cross section through several genres. But all of it is top notch stuff. I have at least 5 sound track albums, and I listen to them quite regularly.
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subego
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Sep 14, 2021, 03:34 PM
 
Do you have any insight to that track? I obviously can’t understand the lyrics, so I don’t know if those give it some context.
     
subego
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Sep 20, 2021, 12:38 PM
 
I’m hearing word Dune is a “part 1”, and there’s no firm deal for a “part 2”.


Edit: are stillsuits black in the books?
( Last edited by subego; Sep 20, 2021 at 12:55 PM. )
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 20, 2021, 10:47 PM
 
Yes that is correct. This is the big catch.
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subego
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Sep 21, 2021, 12:20 AM
 
Well, I wish them all good luck in that regard.
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Sep 21, 2021, 06:43 AM
 
Yeah I don’t know if there’s precedent for the approach. Girl with the Dragon Tattoo was self-contained. Probably Lord of the Rings, although the funding was already there. Typically they’ll at least try to tie a bow just in case Part 2 doesn’t appear.

But it sounds like he just didn’t want to compromise in that way…and the story doesn’t really fit like that either. So he just left it up to moviegoers and the studio whether it continues.

Personally I kind of love everything the guy does so I’m all in and hope it’s great. Will definitely hit theatres to see it and support a future ending.
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 22, 2021, 04:08 AM
 
Pretty sure LOTR was commissioned as a trilogy from the off. Though these can always be cancelled at any time. Didn't they pull the plug on the final part of the Divergent series?

I'm looking forward to Dune but why the **** would you put a full money shot of a worm in the damn trailer? There must be any number of potential viewers who wouldn't have a clue about them given how long its been since the last movie came out. And even the video games. Hollywood just cannot make good trailers any more.

I really hope there still a chance of Alita: Battle Angel sequels being made. They did a great job with that movie.
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andi*pandi  (op)
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Sep 22, 2021, 01:49 PM
 
With LOTR the story doesn't "end" well at the first book.

Hunger games: needed all books made into movies for it to be a success - if only for selling box sets?

Even $%^& Twilight needed all the books made into movies.
     
subego
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Sep 22, 2021, 02:28 PM
 
I wonder who screwed who over in this contract.

It would be nice if the first is super successful, and then Denis and co. get to milk the studio for all its worth.
     
 
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