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organ · May 11, 2005, 07:23 PM

I don't know if I'm the first one to notice this but ShapeShifter and Illustrator CS don't get along in Tiger. If you try to move an already selected anchor point with the Direct Selection Tool (the white arrow on the top right of the tool palette) you end up switching to the application windows that's behind your Illustrator workspace. Same goes with trying to change a bezier curve by draging.

All anchor points in an selected object also becomes transparent. Kind of funky looking but it's not what I'm after

I haven't tried this with any other versions of Illustrator but I made a clean install of the application after upgrading to Tiger.

Might also let you know that I tried it with more than one guiKit.

cruciarius · May 11, 2005, 07:38 PM

just disable SS for Illustrator CS then.

organ · May 11, 2005, 08:09 PM

DOH! You're so right!

ZXspectrum · May 11, 2005, 08:32 PM

if you don't mind about the Menubar changing to the horrible defult Tiger theme

hope they will find a soulotion for that...

revmitcz · May 12, 2005, 03:09 AM

*phew*
Hey, thanks for posting this. I sat here wondering how Adobe pushed CS 2 out the door mere days before Tiger without fixing what I considered to be a huge oversight. I noticed this issue last night, after I installed Illustrator and even the Adobe people were confused.

Mkay, now I know the issue, so I can get back to work

Zimphire · May 12, 2005, 06:30 AM

Yet another reason why I don't like 3rd party hacks. :/

demograph68 · May 12, 2005, 08:04 AM

The reason shapeshifter has problems theming CS is because of how CS handles it's GUI resources.

elementality · May 12, 2005, 12:25 PM

phew...

I thought I was going crazy. I'm glad someone else has experienced this because I couldn't figure out what was going on. I've disabled Shapeshifter on Illustrator CS and all is good now. Thanks!

gdiddy · May 12, 2005, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by elementality

phew...

I thought I was going crazy. I'm glad someone else has experienced this because I couldn't figure out what was going on. I've disabled Shapeshifter on Illustrator CS and all is good now. Thanks!

Whew! I was just getting ready to do the full uninstall every third party hack/app/whatev.

Zimphire · May 12, 2005, 10:54 PM

I guess I like consistency better than themeability.

Plus Aqua minus the stripes is pretty darn slick these days.

I think I might even try Max's smooth stripes for the better progress bars if he releases a non-SS version of it.

smeger · May 13, 2005, 01:36 AM

Zimph, you've been pretty vocal recently about your love of stripeless Aqua and how every themer in the world should release raw Extras.rsrc files for you. Since you are comfortable swapping resource files in /System, and more importantly, you aren't using a theme that requires anything other than a raw Extras.rsrc file (a statement which does not apply to many themes nowadays), why don't you just ask someone you know who has ShapeShifter to send you the generated Extras.rsrc file that ShapeShifter caches rather than try to impose a burden on themers who already work harder than they should just making the theme?

Easier for everyone.

Zimphire · 07:18 AM

Originally Posted by smeger

Zimph, you've been pretty vocal recently about your love of stripeless Aqua

and how every themer in the world should release raw Extras.rsrc files for you.

Now I don't remember saying that....
I said themers that can release themes without REQUIRING SS should. For those of use that don't want to use it. Ones that cannot, certainly should not of course.

Since you are comfortable swapping resource files in /System, and more importantly, you aren't using a theme that requires anything other than a raw Extras.rsrc file (a statement which does not apply to many themes nowadays),

Actually the theme I use has more than just the Extras.rsrc. I've hacked the other stuff too. As far as the login, extra Finder stuff.. etc. Also can be manually installed.

why don't you just ask someone you know who has ShapeShifter to send you the generated Extras.rsrc file that ShapeShifter caches

SS does that? Neat! Good on whoever designed that feature.

rather than try to impose a burden on themers who already work harder than they should just making the theme?

Err.. how would that make it harder on them? They don't have to do any extra work to make resources that they started with.

Easier for everyone.

I understand the need and want to make SS popular smeger. But in the process, there is no need to take the choice of not running it away for themes that don't need it.

While SS is a neat application, it isn't needed for a lot of themes like Kaleidoscope was.

For some reason Mac users have been misinformed to think OS X can't be skinned unless SS is used. Lately I have seen a lot of these comments in the forum.

People say, waiting for simple themes for Tiger, but don't think they can change it without SS.

Where that came from I have no idea. All I have been doing smeger is informing those who think SS is REQUIRED to skin OS X that it isn't for most basic theming.

If you want to get complicated, like change text color, etc, SS is the way to go definitely.

It's a great app for what it does.

I had quite a few people pvt message me to ask me how to manually install a theme. They had no clue it could be done. Nothing wrong with giving out information I don't think...

It's just not for everyone. Esp those who don't like 3rd party hacks like that. Not that there is really anything wrong with them, I guess I am just anal retentive. I've ran into too many glitches and little inconsistencies with them. And that isn't my bag. If I can get a theme to work in my system the way I want it to, without extra software, and it be just like the OS before, I surely will.

Also someone also needs to come up with a way for themers to get payed also, being that if it weren't for them, no one would buy SS.

Maybe set up something in SS that after like a week of usage, requires you to register said theme.

It would not only improve the quality of themes, it would also give theme designers the credit they deserve.

It's not a easy task to design a OS X theme.

smeger · May 13, 2005, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Nothing wrong with giving out information I don't think...

Absolutely nothing wrong with giving information. But do you remember what theming was like before ShapeShifter was released? Theme creators spent an insane amount of their time coaching people through reinstalling their operating systems instead of creating themes. They got sick of it, and it's no surprise.

Now, I know that you're going to say that you've been swapping resources manually forever and have never had a problem. That's wonderful, but before ShapeShifter, a ton of people did have problems. If you don't believe me, search these forums. But I'm sure you remember it - I know you were around back then.

While SS is a neat application, it isn't needed for a lot of themes like Kaleidoscope was.

This is no longer true. Many many modern themes rely on things such as patterns that are larger than 8x8 pixels, custom text colors, enhanced menus, etc. At the current time, none of those are possible without ShapeShifter. Hell, you can't use colored metal windows without ShapeShifter from Panther on. That's a pretty basic requirement of a theme, wouldn't you say?

You shouldn't conflate the theme that you personally use with "a lot of themes".

Anyway, as I said, I'm all for sharing information. But I'm not at all down with having to provide support for users who have hosed their operating system because they tried swapping resources manually using your methods, or who are complaining to Unsanity because their theme doesn't look right after swapping resources manually.

gdiddy · May 13, 2005, 11:16 AM

smeger, you forget MacNN was built specifically for Zim to vioce his opinions. As many times as he wants. And he is always right.

gregorj · May 13, 2005, 11:54 AM

Illustartor CS 2 has some quircky bugs with or without shapeshifter. The first one you'll notice is it does not consistently honor the graphite appearance -- some parts of the apps interface will be blue and some graphite. Photoshop CS 2 will be the same, but usually just the apple icon in the menu bar misbehaves.

It looks like adobe needs to do a quick update for tiger compatibility as across different computers, Photoshop CS2 always, w/o fail, crashes on 1st launch after restart or waking from sleep.

Adding a gui mod adds new bugs.

AveTenebrae · May 13, 2005, 12:05 PM

i'm agree with Zimphire.
Unsanity seems to forget that peoples like max or dsky work hard for free to feed ShapeShifter.
I have never saw a shareware guikit. I suppose it would upset all the mac GUI community.
I bet nobody would pay for a software empty of good themes. Where are free Unsanity's guikits ?
Personnally i am for themes package installer.

Zimphire · 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by smeger

Absolutely nothing wrong with giving information. But do you remember what theming was like before ShapeShifter was released? Theme creators spent an insane amount of their time coaching people through reinstalling their operating systems instead of creating themes. They got sick of it, and it's no surprise.

smeger, you and I both know that isn't because doing it manually is somehow more dangerous. There have been people that have hosed their system with SS too, and had to reinstall. I wouldn't blame SS for that either.

I've been doing since before the Public Beta days. Not once did I have to reinstall.

Heck, most of the time I even hot swap the files and log back in.

The fact is, most of those problems came up because people was trying to install and older version of the Extras.rsrc into a newer version of the OS. And that is again, user error.

If you hosed your system install a theme manually, it wasn't because doing so is risky business. It is because you screwed up.

Same goes with anyone that screws up their system using SS, it's not SS's fault.

Now, I know that you're going to say that you've been swapping resources manually forever and have never had a problem. That's wonderful, but before ShapeShifter, a ton of people did have problems. If you don't believe me, search these forums. But I'm sure you remember it - I know you were around back then.

Yes I do, just like I have seen people have problems with SS. I never said there shouldn't be an option like SS for those who do not want to manually install themes. It's great to have options.

This is no longer true. Many many modern themes rely on things such as patterns that are larger than 8x8 pixels, custom text colors, enhanced menus, etc. At the current time, none of those are possible without ShapeShifter. Hell, you can't use colored metal windows without ShapeShifter from Panther on. That's a pretty basic requirement of a theme, wouldn't you say?

Like I said before, I that is cool. I never said SS sucked.

Take for example Smooth Stripes. Max releases a stand a lone non-shape-shifter version

Why? It doesn't REQUIRE it. That is all well and good.

I know there are a lot of people out there that just want the stripes gone, but don't want to buy a app to do it with. And this works perfectly.

You shouldn't conflate the theme that you personally use with "a lot of themes".

Well I have used a lot of themes that was SS only, had them converted and only used the Extras, but ok.

Anyway, as I said, I'm all for sharing information. But I'm not at all down with having to provide support for users who have hosed their operating system because they tried swapping resources manually using your methods, or who are complaining to Unsanity because their theme doesn't look right after swapping resources manually.

Why would you have to offer support of such things? You don't. If they swapped them out and messed something up without SS, that is their fault.

Again, don't get me wrong, SS is a bad-ass'd application. If I was more into themes, I would register it.

I don't see no reason to register it however if I am using only one theme, and it doesn't require SS.

That would be a bit of an over-kill.

Every OS upgrade I just modify the resource, hot-swap and I am finished till next upgrade.

Zimphire · May 13, 2005, 05:03 PM

Originally Posted by AveTenebrae

i'm agree with Zimphire.
Unsanity seems to forget that peoples like max or dsky work hard for free to feed ShapeShifter.

I don't think they forget. It just would be hard to sell themes being that there is no way to put a time limit on them if you don't pay..

Unless of course SS built something like that into it...

I have never saw a shareware guikit. I suppose it would upset all the mac GUI community.

Why would it? I mean I am for everything like this being free too. When I made themes I never charged for them. No one did. But it seems like there is money to be made in it. The themers should be making some as well.

Personally i am for themes package installer.

Problem with that is, no consistency.

I had a slick one for Sosumi long ago. It even did uninstalls with no problem.

I didn't code it however. The owner of http://screenshots.haque.net did.

And it was neat.

I might still have an example of it.

Jay Condon · May 13, 2005, 08:21 PM

So.....ummm....any chancee of getting the illustrator bug fixed?

Rosyna · May 14, 2005, 09:52 AM

Speaking of all this, does Adobe have a formal method by which you submit bugs (like Apple's bugreport.apple.com)?

I've noticed some crazy bugs in CS 2 while working on different things and would like to report them rather than just complain about them. One is that when typing in a text box in PS CS2, the Preferences menu item is disabled.

ZXspectrum · May 14, 2005, 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by Zimphire

Also someone also needs to come up with a way for themers to get payed also, being that if it weren't for them, no one would buy SS.

Maybe set up something in SS that after like a week of usage, requires you to register said theme.

It would not only improve the quality of themes, it would also give theme designers the credit they deserve.

It's not a easy task to design a OS X theme.

i also think that we should pay for themes. maybe then we won't be so dependent on Swiz and Max. obviously nobody expects them to leave their jobs and become full time themers. i am sure that if they would get paid for the themes they would find the time to create more. also, new themers will join, maybe new apps will come out and everybody wins!

we are averaging 3 themes a month which is really bad...and if i was Unsanity, i would be a bit worried. however, the facts are that on Macupdate alone there have been 350,000 downloads of themes!!! so i am guessing that in the past 2 years close to a million themes have bean downloaded!

what's the big deal? even if we paid a symbolic 1$ a theme Max and Swiz would have had enough money for new cars by now

they invested so many nights of hard work making themes for us and i think it would only be our privilege to help them in return.

Zimphire · May 14, 2005, 08:47 PM

$1 a theme seems reasonable.

demograph68 · May 15, 2005, 01:51 AM

Don't forget charging for the icons too.

revmitcz · May 15, 2005, 06:03 PM

Personally, I feel $1 (or the classic "$.99" tag) would be perfectly reasonable. HOWEVER.. SS would need some way to put in the ability for a theme to be installed and tried out for.. let's say 2-3 days before requiring a payment for a given theme. I'd be really pissed if I had to pay $1 for every theme that worked better in the developer's screenshot than it does in working practice. I can think of more than a few themes that fit that description - as I'm sure all of you could.

ArcticBear · May 15, 2005, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by AveTenebrae

Unsanity seems to forget that peoples like max or dsky work hard for free to feed ShapeShifter.
I have never saw a shareware guikit. I suppose it would upset all the mac GUI community.
I bet nobody would pay for a software empty of good themes. Where are free Unsanity's guikits?

Some themers put so much work into this stuff just because they enjoy making the mods and sharing them.

Kaleidoscope had plenty of good, well-designed themes that were free (Albie Wong, Kei Kinoshita, Takashi Izawa). Regarding cost: Some Kaleidoscope schemes asked for a shareware fee, or were donationware. How many people paid that? And how many were free compared to how many were for pay? Regarding development: The development tools were about as sparce as they are now.

Originally Posted by Rosyna

Speaking of all this, does Adobe have a formal method by which you submit bugs (like Apple's bugreport.apple.com)?

I've noticed some crazy bugs in CS 2 while working on different things and would like to report them rather than just complain about them. ...

You can sign up for their message boards/forum and, at the very least, co-miserate there. I've never seen an e-mail for bug reports, and I've looked. I think you have to buy tech$$$upport to make official feedback...

Originally Posted by ZXspectrum

i also think that we should pay for themes. maybe then we won't be so dependent on Swiz and Max. obviously nobody expects them to leave their jobs and become full time themers. i am sure that if they would get paid for the themes they would find the time to create more. also, new themers will join, maybe new apps will come out and everybody wins!

I think themers should release their themes as they see fit. If they want to make it shareware, fine. I doubt extra money would enable most themers to produce more. Time cannot always be "bought."

we are averaging 3 themes a month which is really bad...and if i was Unsanity, i would be a bit worried. however, the facts are that on Macupdate alone there have been 350,000 downloads of themes!!! so i am guessing that in the past 2 years close to a million themes have bean downloaded!

Maybe the rush in theme development will happen when we are able to break out of the UI restrictions Apple has put in place. Like going from Kaleidoscope 1.x --> 2.x.

ZXspectrum · May 15, 2005, 07:33 PM

I think themers should release their themes as they see fit. If they want to make it shareware, fine. I doubt extra money would enable most themers to produce more. Time cannot always be "bought."

1$= 1 theme sounds crazy 2you?

Maybe the rush in theme development will happen when we are able to break out of the UI restrictions Apple has put in place. Like going from Kaleidoscope 1.x --> 2.x.

Maybe is a beautiful word. 2bad it usually brings you nowhere...

P.s - do you personally know the themers that you are speaking in their behalf?

Zimphire · May 15, 2005, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by ArcticBear

Some themers put so much work into this stuff just because they enjoy making the mods and sharing them.

As did I!

Kaleidoscope had plenty of good, well-designed themes that were free (Albie Wong, Kei Kinoshita, Takashi Izawa). Regarding cost: Some Kaleidoscope schemes asked for a shareware fee, or were donationware. How many people paid that?

There was some that REQUIRED you pay before you could use them. Meaning that they were password protected till you payed. So if anyone used it I guess they would have to pay.

And Kaleidoscope themes were easier to make than OS X themes.

And how many were free compared to how many were for pay? Regarding development: The development tools were about as sparce as they are now.

You only needed Photoshop or an equivalent Graphics program and free RedEdit to make Kaleidoscope themes.

Kaleidoscope had made it's own themeing engine. Without Kaleidoscope, there would be no themes. That is until OS 9.

I think themers should release their themes as they see fit. If they want to make it shareware, fine. I doubt extra money would enable most themers to produce more. Time cannot always be "bought."

If say, only 100 people used your theme. And you charged $1 per theme. That would be $100 dollars in your pocket for designing a theme. Now usually more than 100 people use a given theme.

Maybe the rush in theme development will happen when we are able to break out of the UI restrictions Apple has put in place. Like going from Kaleidoscope 1.x --> 2.x.

Indeed. ShapeShifter I think it trying to accomplish that. And they are doing a great job so far.

It's tricky I am sure.

Too bad Apple didn't get in on the game. :/

ArcticBear · May 15, 2005, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by ZXspectrum

1$= 1 theme sounds crazy 2you?

No, but it has the nature of a tax. I'm not particularly crazy about taxes.

Maybe the rush in theme development will happen when we are able to break out of the UI restrictions Apple has put in place. Like going from Kaleidoscope 1.x --> 2.x.

Maybe is a beautiful word. 2bad it usually brings you nowhere...

My observation here is Kaleidoscope 1.x schemes were more or less recolorations of Apple's GUI. The windows were basically the same. When Kaleidoscope 2 came out, you could reshape the window edges, move widgets around (one had em at the bottom... Duncan Cowan's CoPilot scheme?). And the more interesting and inventive schemes came out then.

P.s - do you personally know the themers that you are speaking in their behalf?

If you want to have a shareware fee you can have a shareware fee. Or make it donationware. Or postcardware. Or whateverware. You can even box it up and sell it retail. But not everyone wants money for the work they do.

Proof? Some (I refer to software fees more generally here, but the principle is the same) -- some ask that you make a donation to your favorite charity. They're obviously not doing it for the money.

Zimphire · May 15, 2005, 10:23 PM

I was hoping the theming community would stay sharing in that way. Theming apps be free, themer be free, and themes be free.

That would ideally be the right thing to do.

Instead of just some people making money, and others not.

For example, without the themers, no theme apps could make money.

Yet, themers see nothing from this.

ArcticBear · May 15, 2005, 10:36 PM

Some themers put so much work into this stuff just because they enjoy making the mods and sharing them.
As did I!

Kudos!

... How many people paid?
There was some that REQUIRED you pay before you could use them. Meaning that they were password protected till you payed. So if anyone used it I guess they would have to pay.

Were they the best because theme users paid for their development, or just well done by a talented themer and a price attached to it?

And Kaleidoscope themes were easier to make than OS X themes.

Never fully got into the KScheme development, but I agree OS X is a handful.

... development tools were about as sparse...
You only needed Photoshop... and free ResEdit...

I forget my point on this, but yes, that's true.

I doubt extra money would enable most themers to produce more. Time cannot always be "bought."
If say, only 100 people used your theme. And you charged $1 per theme. That would be $100 dollars in your pocket for designing a theme. Now usually more than 100 people use a given theme.

You could offer me $10,000 right now and I still would not have the time to make a theme.

Well, not a good one.

Too bad Apple didn't get in on the game. :/

Apple is decidedly against the game. :/ :/

Zimphire · May 15, 2005, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by ArcticBear

Were they the best

I wouldn't say they were the best, but they indeed had quality work involved.

I never charged for anything.

because theme users paid for their development, or just well done by a talented themer and a price attached to it?

The latter. It was $5 I think for the theme. A bit too much if you ask me. Esp how easy Kal themes were to make at the time.

Never fully got into the KScheme development, but I agree OS X is a handful.

I did pre-2.0... after 2.0 it really slowed down the system. And I suddenly gained mucho respect for Platinum after I started actually using a computer for actual work.

Apple is decidedly against the game. :/ :/

I know, which is unfortunate. Because that is one thing XP users can brag about.

Not that MS is that helpful to themers of XP either..
I believe that they have to even have a application to install XP themes?

Or is that just more FUD?