[Suikolove]

Well, yeah. I know mods and admins have lives, but the one called Rob's most recent nick was registered 18 days ago. Personally, I've never gone to school or slept that long, but hey, everyone's different.

Hell, he may even have a new account right now that we are unaware of.

[Kerrigan]

CATS: did he start a thread which was deleted? I saw something about a Jesus thread, but I can't find the thread itself.

[Rumor]

Originally Posted by Railroader 

I knew there was something I liked about you.

What can I say? I only drink good beer.

[red rocket]

Originally Posted by Suikolove

I don't think Kevin picks fights with people here for no good reason. I'm pretty sure he only "fights" with those who think, whether by position or otherwise, that they are better than everyone else, and certainly act that way in their posts (this information was gathered just from the posts I've been reading). I'm the same way from time to time, but I never risk a ban to make my point. =\

But, I don't know Kevin, or any of the moderators for that matter, so what do I know?

Nothing.

That has to be the stupidest assessment of Zimphire's behaviour I've read in a long time.

His problem is that he doesn't understand when he's lost an argument, and thus winds people who attempt to debate things with him up in endless circles of non‑logic.

On top of that, there are his insane religious and political delusions and the fact that he and a few of his equally insane pals feel the need to embark on regular, irrational, and childish ‘Ban Rob!!!’ crusades, as it is apparently too complicated for them to just put him on their ignore lists.

Unfortunately, the powers that be do predictably end up banning Rob for a reason which appears (to me, at least), in the absence of more concrete reasons, to be simply that he is who he is. Which naturally leads him to re‑register ad infinitum. I mean, who wouldn't?

So, the apparently logical course of action would be to ignore all further ban requests for him, as that would leave his enemies no other recourse but placing him on ignore. Which would actually solve the problem.

That wouldn't be MacNN anymore, though. We seem to thrive on this kind of crap, where would we be without it?

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

I guess he's referring to the fact that Lateralus and Kevin don't get along. I'm not sure why he singled out Lateralus, though, since Kevin seems to fight regularly with about 50% of the people here.

I think this forum should be re-christianed >keviNN<.

No offense to anyone.

;o)

[analogika]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

So, the apparently logical course of action would be to ignore all further ban requests for him, as that would leave his enemies no other recourse but placing him on ignore. Which would actually solve the problem.

That wouldn't be MacNN anymore, though. We seem to thrive on this kind of crap, where would we be without it?

Well, it seems to work well enough for dealing with Zimphire/Kevin. It's one reason he's heavily toned down over the past months.

We haven't had a "sixteenth chapel"-style asshattery in, oh, forever.

[Kerrigan]

Paging Doofy: the cox is no longer visible in my sig, but you can still make out three guys handling shafts :-p

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Paging Doofy: the cox is no longer visible in my sig, but you can still make out three guys handling shafts :-p

Another classic thread at 'NN.

Oh, and the KevinNN motion, seconded.

-t

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

Paging Doofy: the cox is no longer visible in my sig, but you can still make out three guys handling shafts :-p

[andi*pandi]

the guy sitting stroke seat appears to have been cropped out too.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by OreoCookie 

We've been down this road and the gist of the thread was that we have no other feasible option. Rob's nick has been banned and if he registers again, it will be banned eventually, too. We'll eventually get around once we get around to immerse ourselves in the ocean of data called internet. However, most of us have real lives to attend to, friends to see and jobs to do. Dead lines. School. Teaching. Sleep. Whatever. I'm not sure why some people here construe this as either some subconscious admiration for Rob or a failure of the ban system.

Even when we act quickly and decisively, there are threads in the Feedback forum

So if you don't have time to moderate at a convenient and quick manner, why be a moderator at all?

I would hang up my mod status if I couldn't take care of something, say within an hour of it being reported.

But that's just me.

There are TONS of people out there that have jobs that require them to barely do a thing but surf the net that would probably love to mod the forum, and do a decent job.

I have no problems with mods/admins having lives.

I do have problems with it being used as an excuse.

Esp when their are ways to fix the "lives" problem.

AKA add more admnis/mods or give mods to those with no lives.

And yes I too keep wishing with every Rob return that it will be THIS TIME that he stops. That he finally "learned a lesson" or started taking responsibilities for his actions.

But until then, I think he shouldn't be allowed to harass members.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

That has to be the stupidest assessment of Zimphire's behaviour I've read in a long time.

Yeah all except for it being right on. Other than him "getting me" from the start, he's totally wrong.

His problem is that he doesn't understand when he's lost an argument, and thus winds people who attempt to debate things with him up in endless circles of non‑logic.

No, I assure you do a search for my name and "I apologize" Many times when I have been wrong (And it has been many times) I've not only admitted it, but I've apologized to said person.

On top of that, there are his insane religious and political delusions

Just pointing out that this is a bigoted statement.

and the fact that he and a few of his equally insane pals feel the need to embark on regular, irrational, and childish ‘Ban Rob!!!’ crusades, as it is apparently too complicated for them to just put him on their ignore lists.

You didn't read my post did you? BTW did you miss my "UNBAN ROB" crusade right before the last time he was unbanned? And if you did, why is that? Why does red rocket only see the negative (and mostly imaginary) part of "Zimphire" BTW the way you are treating me, is the way you are accusing me of treating Rob. You realize that right? But you crossed wires somewhere and have it all mixed up.

So, the apparently logical course of action would be to ignore all further ban requests for him, as that would leave his enemies no other recourse but placing him on ignore. Which would actually solve the problem.

I am not Rob's enemy. I don't want Rob banned. I want Rob to take responsibilities for his actions.

Originally Posted by analogika 

Well, it seems to work well enough for dealing with Zimphire/Kevin. It's one reason he's heavily toned down over the past months.

Wow I love it when people project reasons into my head. You guys are scary. Actually the very people that claim to have me on ignore, are the very people that seem to be obsessed with me and can't stop talking about me. Know any of these people analog? At least the other analog stopped fanboying over me and got over it. I think it's time for others to drop their chips too.

I have a lot going on in my life right now. More work responsibilities, more hobbies (guiarrig 2 is awesome), more people in my life to deal with, planning a wedding (yeah you heard right...)

THAT is why I don't come around as much.

But don't worry analog. I don't expect you to apologize. It's just not your style.

Why after all these years you continue to make posts like this is beyond me.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

I have a lot going on in my life right now. More work responsibilities, more hobbies (guiarrig 2 is awesome), more people in my life to deal with, planning a wedding (yeah you heard right...)

Congrats, Kevin.

That's worth 1000 times more than spending time at BickerNN.
You are doing the right thing cutting the non-essentials.

-t

[Kevin]

Oh I will always come here as long as it exists. I just don't put as much time in.
Yeah I know, I am sure I've upset a lot of people.

BTW the sig rule.. has it changed?

[Kerrigan]

Originally Posted by andi*pandi 

the guy sitting stroke seat appears to have been cropped out too.

Nobody likes the cocky bastard in stroke

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

BTW the sig rule.. has it changed?

LOL, no, it's just the hampstor messing with us. Sig size now changes everytime you refresh.

See also here: http://forums.macnn.com/61/feedback/...e/#post3436601

-t

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Suikolove 

I want Mike's Hard Lemonade.

Seriously, though. If someone has a dynamic IP, there's not much the mods or admins can do.

How many email addresses does he have? Or do you even need an email address for an account? I can't remember.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Originally Posted by Kevin 

BTW the sig rule.. has it changed?

No, the forum is screwing with turtle's sig.

[besson3c]

Does this mean I can stop reporting all of these signature violations?

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Does this mean I can stop reporting all of these signature violations?

No, no, keep 'em coming

I'm sure DH will love you.

-t

[besson3c]

I can't believe some people get all bent out of shape about signatures being a little too big...

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

I can't believe some people get all bent out of shape about signatures being a little too big...

Every forum has their Nazis. It's just the way things work. I'm sometimes like that, too. Until somebody gives me a bitch-slap to bring me back to senses

-t

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

Every forum has their Nazis. It's just the way things work. I'm sometimes like that, too. Until somebody gives me a bitch-slap to bring me back to senses

-t

Yeah, but it's not just the case of being bossy or controlling, it simply makes no logical sense.

There are a countless number of threads and posts that I'm not interested in that consequently require a little extra scrolling. If you use a computer, you will be doing a lot of scrolling. Yet, the amount of thread space it takes to bitch about the signatures requires more scrolling than the signatures themselves, and the amount of time necessary to write such a post is more time consuming than doing a little extra scrolling, not to mention the inevitable hand wringing and bickering...

The argument may have carried some more weight back when people were on dial-up modems, but nowadays it is common place for pages to be full of Flash movies, ads, images, and relatively complex layouts that require a pause in rendering time. In fact, this very forum design seems to require a fair amount of computational/rendering time so much so that rendering speed is more of a bottleneck than lack of bandwidth. Simply having images in a thread does not really increase the rendering time of a page, as near as I can tell. Besides, if rendering time was really the issue people would be bitching about inline images in threads, and every cat picture that makes an appearance here...

It's really a non-issue, IMHO.

[Atomic Rooster]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Nothing.

That has to be the stupidest assessment of Zimphire's behaviour I've read in a long time.

His problem is that he doesn't understand when he's lost an argument, and thus winds people who attempt to debate things with him up in endless circles of non‑logic.

On top of that, there are his insane religious and political delusions and the fact that he and a few of his equally insane pals feel the need to embark on regular, irrational, and childish ‘Ban Rob!!!’ crusades, as it is apparently too complicated for them to just put him on their ignore lists.

Or maybe those assholes (not pointing any fingers) will eventually leave and we end up having a more enjoyable place to come.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Atomic Rooster 

Or maybe those assholes (not pointing any fingers) will eventually leave and we end up having a more enjoyable place to come.

The thing is, those people he was talking about aren't the ones that start all the crap in here.

Funny those that also complain the most about religion, are also the ones talking most about it.

Everyone believes it's "The other guy" that is making a place suck. And I am sure we all have done our part in making this place suck. Not any one group can make any claim to fame.

The only way MacNN will become better is when EVERYONE starts respecting each others beliefs and so on. Until then it will be filled with hateful/bigoted comments.

So if you want to look to the people that is making this place suck, look to those that usually are doing the personal attacking and belittling most of the time.

While I have made my share of attacks in the past (which could barely be qualified as such) since I have not gotten any warnings/or demerits or whatever they are calling them now for well over a year I can honestly say I haven't added to such stirring pot in a long time.
(I only actually got 1 by tooki. For doing something before said system was implemented.It was eventually removed)

So I can safely say I am not one of those that is hurting the NN community. (AKA attacking people and their beliefs and being intolerant)

And actually don't want anyone to leave. Any you shouldn't either. You should strive or have a desire for those people you think are doing wrong, to instead do right.

Having said that, those that have made a habit and made it known clear that they wont respect one another shouldn't ruin it for the rest of us that try our best to do so.

Like Suikolove said, I don't "attack" so much as take up for those that are being bullies to other people or to myself. Now to those that are doing the bullying, I am sure they think of it as being an attack on them. But most bullies are usually insecure and self centered anyhow.

Again, I've made a pact with anyone that wants me to leave them alone in my sig. So far not one person has signed it.

So that tells me that being a "internet bully" to them is more important than making me quit responding to them. Or maybe they can't stop, and know it. Who knows. It actually says a lot of things.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by C.A.T.S. CEO 

No, the forum is screwing with turtle's sig.

Crap.. I was HOPING I was gonna be able to put a larger sig up.

ohwell.wav

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

There are a countless number of threads and posts that I'm not interested in that consequently require a little extra scrolling. If you use a computer, you will be doing a lot of scrolling. Yet, the amount of thread space it takes to bitch about the signatures requires more scrolling than the signatures themselves, and the amount of time necessary to write such a post is more time consuming than doing a little extra scrolling, not to mention the inevitable hand wringing and bickering... <snip extra long post>

I hope that was meant to be ironic...

[Martyr68]

Originally Posted by Kerrigan 

CATS: did he start a thread which was deleted? I saw something about a Jesus thread, but I can't find the thread itself.

No, I did not start a Jesus thread. Kevin was just trying to get me banned, and I was pointing out he was being a hypocritical Christian, like most of them. He keeps trying to get me banned, saying I haven't changed, but he can't come up with any concrete examples in the past 2.5 years of me being here that give substance to his accusations. He basically just complains about things from 3+ years ago, then claims "I haven't changed", ignoring the last 3 years or so. I also pointed out his 'Christ' would say turn the other cheek, but instead he wants me banned, and constantly acts like he 'pities' me and says he's 'sorry that I act this way (the way he can't come up with examples for) and that unfortunately he wants me banned because I don't change (even though his only examples are from years ago).

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Nothing.

That has to be the stupidest assessment of Zimphire's behaviour I've read in a long time.

His problem is that he doesn't understand when he's lost an argument, and thus winds people who attempt to debate things with him up in endless circles of non‑logic.

On top of that, there are his insane religious and political delusions and the fact that he and a few of his equally insane pals feel the need to embark on regular, irrational, and childish ‘Ban Rob!!!’ crusades, as it is apparently too complicated for them to just put him on their ignore lists.

Unfortunately, the powers that be do predictably end up banning Rob for a reason which appears (to me, at least), in the absence of more concrete reasons, to be simply that he is who he is. Which naturally leads him to re‑register ad infinitum. I mean, who wouldn't?

So, the apparently logical course of action would be to ignore all further ban requests for him, as that would leave his enemies no other recourse but placing him on ignore. Which would actually solve the problem.

That wouldn't be MacNN anymore, though. We seem to thrive on this kind of crap, where would we be without it?

Hrm. I would put him on ignore, but the problem is the little religious zealot is so dedicated to getting me banned, I'd be banned in short order purely because he would spread so much false crap about me. What do you think is better? To ignore him? Because honestly I never care if I see another word he says, he's clearly delusional. Or should I attempt to counter his arguments with examples, links, and rationality? The latter is the way I deal with most problems, but so far it seems like a lost cause with Kevin.

[Dakarʒ]

Now Boarding "What is MacNN's definition of banned?"... Next stop, Hell.

Or a Demonhood lock. Either way, Martyr68 was a nice choice.

[Martyr68]

Thanks, I thought it was fitting.

[besson3c]

Rob, you and Kevin share many things in common...

Neither of you know when to simply back off and walk away from the conflict. It sounds like you have unresolvable differences, so why not simply ignore each other? What do you do with people in real life that you don't get along with? Do you constantly and relentlessly pick and/or try to continue arguing with them?

Some people and things just don't change easily. There is no combination of words that will get Kevin to stop changing what he does that irritates you, and the reverse is true as well, I'm sure.

Just back off. Take it from me, it is easier just ignoring him than it is to continue doing what you have been. As you know, he is on my ignore list too. There are plenty of other people here you can talk with instead.

A little restraint is a good thing, you and Kevin really need to learn this. Of course, I have my own topics and things I have great difficulty restraining myself with, but I have learned to throw in the towel with certain individuals here. Nothing good will come of your continued debate/arguing/bickering/conflict with Kevin, so just let it go, put him on your ignore list, promise yourself to stop talking with him, beg him to do the same (and if you can, get him to do the same for me , and be done with it...

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Martyr68 

No, I did not start a Jesus thread.

I never said you did.

Kevin was just trying to get me banned, and I was pointing out he was being a hypocritical Christian, like most of them.

by posting threads in the suggestion forum requesting you unbanned. At least 3 times. I think you are being dishonest Rob.

He keeps trying to get me banned, saying I haven't changed, but he can't come up with any concrete examples in the past 2.5 years of me being here that give substance to his accusations

1. More baseless accusations. I just made a thread asking the mods not to ban anyone. And was told it was absurd.
2. Anyone can read your posts to see why you are banned. I am not needed. As it has been pointed out to you many times. By many people other than me.

He basically just complains about things from 3+ years ago,

Is this at least you admitting now you did these things? I wasn't complaining so much as explaining. But lets not let something like he truth effect that.

then claims "I haven't changed", ignoring the last 3 years or so.

No I and the rest of the people that said you haven't changed had valid reasons. You being banned is proof of it. You still not respecting said ban is further proof.

I also pointed out his 'Christ' would say turn the other cheek, but instead he wants me banned, and constantly acts like he 'pities' me and says he's 'sorry that I act this way (the way he can't come up with examples for) and that unfortunately he wants me banned because I don't change (even though his only examples are from years ago).

Even though what you just said is totally untrue and you know it. Yet you keep regurgitating it over and over again hoping it will stick. If anything Rob, I've been one of the FEW, and I do mean FEW people that have taken up for you when you make a jack-ass out of yourself. When others made fun of you for getting and having a Neon I took up for you. I did not however take up for your way of acting immature about the situation. But I marked it up to you just being young. Now you are still young, but your actions hasn't changed.

Tell me something else Rob. You claimed before you've done nothing wrong. So are you claiming you've changed? If you've done nothing wrong like you'd always claimed, you would have no reason to change.
Do you see this repeating pattern here Rob?

Hrm. I would put him on ignore, but the problem is the little religious zealot is so dedicated to getting me banned, I'd be banned in short order purely because he would spread so much false crap about me. What do you think is better?

When is Robert going to grow up and stop lying? I don't ban you. The mods ban you. I have no say on your ban.

To ignore him? Because honestly I never care if I see another word he says, he's clearly delusional. Or should I attempt to counter his arguments with examples, links, and rationality? The latter is the way I deal with most problems, but so far it seems like a lost cause with Kevin.

You don't work on rational. You work on"CAUSE I SAID SO" with arguments with me Rob.

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Rob, you and Kevin share many things in common...

Oh we do. We ALL do.

Neither of you know when to simply back off and walk away from the conflict.

This is something we three share actually. You seem to also have problems with getting into things that have nothing to do with you.

It sounds like you have unresolvable differences, so why not simply ignore each other? What do you do with people in real life that you don't get along with? Do you constantly and relentlessly pick and/or try to continue arguing with them?

No one seems to bother me in real life. No one is so asinine at least. Maybe it's the 'hiding" of the net that keeps people trolling. I am betting Rod doesn't act such the tough guy in real life.

Some people and things just don't change easily. There is no combination of words that will get Kevin to stop changing what he does that irritates you, and the reverse is true as well, I'm sure.

How come you cant get this to be part of your life besson? You are have decent advice sometimes, but you rarely take it youself.

Just back off. Take it from me, it is easier just ignoring him than it is to continue doing what you have been. As you know, he is on my ignore list too. There are plenty of other people here you can talk with instead.

Then why do you endlessly talk about me besson? Of all the people on my ignore list, most all still go on bout me. I give analog bubblebath his props. He's moved on. Much respect here. The the NN Bullies® Don't wan that. They like ANNOUNCING blocks but continue to talk to and about that person as if you weren't blocking them. That surely isn't fooling anyone. Not to mention when you aren't going after me, you are going after Rob.

A little restraint is a good thing, you and Kevin really need to learn this.

Yes I do. I agree. And so does besson. With a tad bit of humility as well. Because of all people, its pretty darn pretentious coming from you besson. But I and others have always believed what your problem was. The self important pretentious belief that you are somehow better than others. Delusions of Grandeur if you may. It be a thread like this, or something on a OS convo. You always talk down to people as if you "knew better". And this comes off as you being insecure and fake. Meaning to or not.

Of course, I have my own topics and things I have great difficulty restraining myself with, but I have learned to throw in the towel with certain individuals here. Nothing good will come of your continued debate/arguing/bickering/conflict with Kevin, so just let it go, put him on your ignore list, promise yourself to stop talking with him, beg him to do the same (and if you can, get him to do the same for me , and be done with it...

If by that you mean I wont let you pull your regular forum tricks and bust you on them, then no, no talking to me will be futile to you. But thats because of YOU not *I*

Again besson my offer in my sig still stands.

You either,

1. Don't really hate me that much or
2. You can't stop attacking others.

I'd say that went along with all the NN Bullies®

They CAN'T stop. Actually they can. They just made the choice not to.

[Kerrigan]

I think that these attempts to escape from bannination are prefiguring future attempts to escape from the clutches of Hell.

[epilogue]

[Dakarʒ]

No 68?

[starman]

To lighten the mood, Dakar and I will start fighting.

Ready? Go.



Dakar. Um.... <scratches head>. You, uh. Stink.

How was that?

[osiris]

I never got the whole banned thing, because it doesn't really seem to stick for long.

In Rob's case, I think he's become the comical delinquent mascot of Macnn,
plus all those spiffy new names Rob has to make up has to be a pain after a while.

But if things get to be too much, hitting the ignore button seems to work for me, and I usually undo that after a day anyway. It can be all so childish...

However, if a ban is to be taken seriously, then it should be for a preset period of time, and ban the IP & ban anonymous proxy servers. If a new user appears and it's obviously the same person, double the ban time and do some kind of automatic superduper ignore on the nick so that no one sees anything posted by this person.

[Kerrigan]

The banning at least gives us a few weeks, sometimes even a few months, without his nonsense. Imagine an NN where Rob is starting flamefest arguments and dishing out death threats every day. Yes, the lounge would be more interesting and I would look forward to the fights, but I doubt this is what most people want.

[besson3c]

It's astonishing how Rob seems to feel entitled to post here.

[Rumor]

Osiris has an idea. Once his new nick is found out, is it possible to set a global ignore for that nick?

[Pendergast]

And yet, besides the power of "ignore", it is just as easy not to look or read...

Or go for a walk, enjoy Nature, etc. Then come back later to read it and decide if we have to respond, or not.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Rumor 

Osiris has an idea. Once his new nick is found out, is it possible to set a global ignore for that nick?

They can set it so only Rob and Rob only sees his posts. No one else can see them.

As soon as they see Rob posting, that is what they need to do. And when he figures it out, and makes a new account, do the same.

He will get sick of wasting his time making posts no one is gonna see.

But that will take mods that would set such a thing up the same day he registers. And since it sometime takes them weeks to ban Rob...

[Mel O. Drahmatik]

Too much drama here.

[ghporter]

Signatures-again... I'm apparently the biggest signature enforcer here. Why? Aside from the fact that it's a rule and our terms of service require that members abide by the rules, and that signatures are details that catch my eye, let's talk about philosophy. Is MacNN about content or about flashy, cluttered, enormous and stupid looking sigs? We (the staff and management) think that our forums are about content, so we have a pretty restrictive signature rule.

besson3c, there are forums using the same software that we do, that are almost ALL signature. You find out about people's zodiacal sign, about their pets, their favorite sports team's current record, what is playing on their iPod-TV-whatever, and countless other details, sometimes IN THE SAME SIGNATURE. There are huge animated pictures from very odd sources, which are often proof that you cannot UNsee anything. And quotes from dozens of sources too. It's insane. To keep this sort of thing in check, we have a tight rule: four lines of default sized text that don't wrap, or a 200X50 pixel picture that is not animated and no more than 10k in size-plus maybe one line of default sized text that doesn't wrap. I personally think that this makes users go in a more creative direction.

I am not aware of anyone being banned for even a big signature violation. We have had people use their signatures to violate other rules (sometimes just rules of common decency), and they've been banned for that. But usually you'll get a PM-often from me-that says "there is something about your signature that violates the rules" along with a link to that rule so you can read it yourself.

I think that I would be horribly embarrassed if I did something that got me banned in any forum I participated in (this is not the only online forum I participate in) because it would be an indication that I was not behaving as an adult in an adult context. I've seen tons of examples here of people who should be told (sometimes daily) to grow the heck up, but in general it's more drama than anything else. I would LIKE for everyone to act more mature and adult, which includes taking into account that the words we read in our forums represent the thoughts and feelings of real people, and if they did something that was hurtful it would be accidental. I'm certain that all of the ugliness posted here would be avoided if our discussions would be held face-to-face, because it's hard to ignore the humanity of someone who's looking right at you.

[C.A.T.S. CEO]

Originally Posted by Mel O. Drahmatik 

Too much drama here.

Hi, how have you been?

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

I would LIKE for everyone to act more mature and adult, which includes taking into account that the words we read in our forums represent the thoughts and feelings of real people, and if they did something that was hurtful it would be accidental. I'm certain that all of the ugliness posted here would be avoided if our discussions would be held face-to-face, because it's hard to ignore the humanity of someone who's looking right at you.

Well Said.