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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Notebooks > Battery Deteriorating at Normal Rate?

Battery Deteriorating at Normal Rate?
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Hg2491
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Mar 1, 2009, 12:11 PM
 
I've had this computer since Jan 14. The battery has a 97% health with 16 cycles. What can I do to keep it from dropping?

     
jogi
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Mar 1, 2009, 12:27 PM
 
try the following:

1. Do not use the laptop on your mattress with the exhaust vents covered. Heat is the no. 1 enemy for batteries
2. Try calibrating the battery, i.e. let it run down completely and recharge till 100%, probably leave it overnight
Macbook Pro Unibody 2.4Ghz
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 12:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by jogi View Post
1. Do not use the laptop on your mattress with the exhaust vents covered. Heat is the no. 1 enemy for batteries
Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for the tip!
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 12:42 PM
 
This is one of my friend's battery life.
Amazing =O

     
kylef
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Mar 1, 2009, 12:58 PM
 
What are you guys using to give you that diagram? I know of System Profiler but I am assuming that is a third party app? Looks kinda cool!
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 01:03 PM
 
     
kylef
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hg2491 View Post
Thanks. 100% health is good to see (bought new in October '08)
     
ghporter
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Mar 1, 2009, 02:54 PM
 
On Thursday, iStat Pro said my battery health was 65% (plugged in). Yesterday, after sitting on the table plugged in while working on it, it said that my battery health was 88%. I'm at my iMac right now, or I'd post how many cycles it has...

I wouldn't worry unless your battery health was much lower and stayed low after being fully charged a couple of times.

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Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 03:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by kylef View Post
Thanks. 100% health is good to see (bought new in October '08)
What are your charging tendencies?

Originally Posted by ghporter
I wouldn't worry unless your battery health was much lower and stayed low after being fully charged a couple of times.
This is my second MacBook so I feel it's I have the chance to make things right. The other MacBook's battery wouldn't last 1 hour after about 200 cycles.
     
kylef
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Mar 1, 2009, 03:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by Hg2491 View Post
What are your charging tendencies?


This is my second MacBook so I feel it's I have the chance to make things right. The other MacBook's battery wouldn't last 1 hour after about 200 cycles.
I tend to have it near 100% charge all the time as I am at my desk more than I want to be! But I also make a point of maybe once a week letting it run right the way down (so there is only about 15-20 minutes of life left).

So if I have <50% life, if I can, I'll let it run down and then charge it to 100%. Seems to do the trick.

     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 09:26 PM
 
Oh, nice. I'm going to copy you on this one .
My health went 1% up after calibrating this afternoon.
     
CharlesS
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Mar 1, 2009, 09:49 PM
 
Um, aren't you supposed to not let the battery go all the way down with lithium-ion batteries, such as the ones in Mac laptops?

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ghporter
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Mar 1, 2009, 09:55 PM
 
Completely draining such batteries IS bad, but you can't do that on a Mac laptop; the OS stops you at something like 2%. Deep cycling is not a good practice with Li-Ion batteries, but it's not like it'll kill them right away or something. And remember that the calibration procedure calls for draining the battery until the machine shuts down, so that's sort of encouraging users to occasionally run the battery down pretty low.

Still, I like to keep my battery over about 50% when I can, because it means more run time before I MUST plug it in.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 10:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Um, aren't you supposed to not let the battery go all the way down with lithium-ion batteries, such as the ones in Mac laptops?
My electricity teacher said that you'll want the electrons to flow. This flow of electrons occurs when you discharge and charge the battery. If the electrons don't flow, they'll stick to each other, causing the battery to slowly lose its ability to charge fully.
     
CharlesS
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Mar 1, 2009, 10:37 PM
 
^^ Good point. I wonder why they recommend this calibration process in the first place. The page on Apple's site seems to indicate that it's more for the benefit of the circuitry that measures how much charge the battery is holding than it is about having anything to do with the health of the battery. Which makes sense; lithium-ion batteries are designed not to have to be deep-cycled, and it's usually considered a good idea not to do that, but charging the battery all the way and then draining it all the way is a pretty sure way of measuring the capacity of a battery.

^ What? Electrons sticking to each other? That doesn't make any sense.

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Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 1, 2009, 10:39 PM
 
That's what I remember him saying. I'll ask him tomorrow.
     
Simon
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Mar 2, 2009, 03:57 AM
 
Electrons sticking? I have a PhD in physics and I can assure you electrons don't "stick" or "flow". That's popular science nonsense. Also, batteries don't do anything per se. There are so many different types of batteries with different characteristics that any advice that start with "batteries should..." or "handle batteries by..." can be considered inaccurate. You need to follow the guidelines for a specific type of battery.

What is correct is that cycling has nothing to do with battery health. You cycle to calibrate the battery lifetime prediction. That's why it's called battery 'calibration'. The cycling you do for calibration is no battery maintenance procedure. It does not magically improve the battery in any way. If you see better battery life after the procedure it's because the life expectancy calculation has been updated, not because the battery itself has changed.
     
Simon
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Mar 2, 2009, 04:04 AM
 
Also, I recommend people stop obsessing with iStat Pro. Apart from causing hard crashes and wake from sleep problems it introduces arbitrary "battery health" states that distract from your actual battery condition.

Stick with Apple's battery specs. If your battery has lost more than 20% of the original capacity (~5.5Ah on a non-UB MBP, ~5Ah on a non-UB MB) within the first 300 cycles it's gone bad and should be replaced. Obviously you need to have a properly calibrated battery first in order to get an accurate full charge capacity reading. Apple will replace such bad batteries immediately if you're within warranty. Batteries are explicitly exempt from AppleCare, but in my experience they are often willing to replace such a battery even under AppleCare. Be nice, explain the situation, and give them your numbers. It has worked several times for me.

The relevant numbers are all found in /Applications/Utilities/System Profiler > Hardware > Power > Battery Information.
( Last edited by Simon; Mar 7, 2009 at 12:26 PM. Reason: typo)
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 2, 2009, 09:57 AM
 
I just talked to my teacher and he corrected me.

Las fuerzas electromagneticas entre los electrones están libres y los diferentes átomos se equilibran y evitan que los electrones sigan corriendo. Cuando están mucho tiempo en una órbita, tienden a quedarse en la misma órbita o irse de ella muy rápido.
Spanish for:

The electromagnetic forces between electrons are free and the different atoms equilibrate themselves and stop the electrons from continue running. When they are a a lot of time in an orbit, they tend to remain in their current orbit, or leave too easily.
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 2, 2009, 09:57 AM
 
I just talked to my teacher and he corrected me.

Las fuerzas electromagneticas entre los electrones están libres y los diferentes átomos se equilibran y evitan que los electrones sigan corriendo. Cuando están mucho tiempo en una órbita, tienden a quedarse en la misma órbita o irse de ella muy rápido.
Spanish for:

The electromagnetic forces between electrons are free and the different atoms equilibrate themselves and stop the electrons from continue running. When they are a a lot of time in an orbit, they tend to remain in their current orbit, or leave too easily.
     
ghporter
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Mar 2, 2009, 10:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Also, I recommend people stop obsessing with iStat Pro. Apart from causing hard crashes and wake from sleep problems it introduces arbitrary "battery health" states that distract from your actual battery condition.
The data iStat uses comes from the same source System Profiler uses. A calculation is simply done to present that data in a useful form. As far as I know, it gives pretty much the same results as Coconut Battery. And I haven't heard of iStat Pro causing any problems before you mentioned it here.

If this is the method people use to monitor their batteries, that's not necessarily a bad thing. But "obsessing" over the results, when the data they're based on change depending on temperature and recent usage, is definitely not a good thing.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Mar 2, 2009, 11:54 PM
 
Wow, that apps are awesome, thanks for the link!.
     
Simon
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Mar 3, 2009, 04:15 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
And I haven't heard of iStat Pro causing any problems before you mentioned it here.
We discussed it on this board about a year ago. Pretty lengthy thread actually.

The really important point is that there's no need to gauge battery "health" with anything other than cycle count and full charge capacity. That's what Apple uses in the spes, that's what Apple uses to determine of you get a replacement.

Anyway, it appears the details might be changing a bit in the near future.



A new testing protocol for battery replacement
     
DCJ001
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Mar 3, 2009, 11:35 PM
 
As far as a MacBook's battery's health and maintaining it, I go by Apple's recommendation for "Calibrating your computer's battery for best performance" at the end of every other month:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1490
     
CharlesS
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Mar 3, 2009, 11:42 PM
 
Did you read the thread? That calibration procedure has nothing to do with battery health, it's only for the circuitry monitoring how much charge is left on the battery. Your battery won't be any healthier from doing that, you'll just possibly have a more accurate "time remaining" stat in the menu bar.

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Simon
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Mar 4, 2009, 04:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
As far as a MacBook's battery's health and maintaining it, I go by Apple's recommendation for "Calibrating your computer's battery for best performance" at the end of every other month:

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1490
'Best performance' as in getting the maximum time you should thanks to a properly calibrated battery gauge. But that's really software performance.

The battery's actual performance doesn't change a bit. In fact, since the battery has a finite amount of cycles, cycling it too often will lead to a life time reduction.

What this all means is that the only reason to recalibrate is if you have reason to believe your reading is inaccurate. Excessive cycling OTOH does not lead to better battery performance or better battery life. Quite the opposite actually.
     
TheGreatButcher
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Mar 5, 2009, 12:21 AM
 
I've had my Macbook for a year and iStat says health = 100%, so it doesn't seem to be of any value.

I think the better gouge is the "Full charge capacity (mAh)" under "Power" in the System Profiler. I have 122 cycles with 5155 capacity remaining (original I think was around 5500?)
     
Simon
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Mar 5, 2009, 03:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by TheGreatButcher View Post
I have 122 cycles with 5155 capacity remaining (original I think was around 5500?)
Read the thread. I gave the numbers above.
     
Hg2491  (op)
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Mar 5, 2009, 09:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
Is this available for download?
     
Simon
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Mar 6, 2009, 03:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by Hg2491 View Post
Is this available for download?
No, it's for Apple stores and AASPs.
     
JKT
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Mar 6, 2009, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
The battery's actual performance doesn't change a bit. In fact, since the battery has a finite amount of cycles, cycling it too often will lead to a life time reduction.
...and, if we assume Apple knows what they are talking about, not cycling it will also lead to a reduction in the lifespan of the battery too:

http://www.apple.com/batteries/

From the right hand side:

Exercise Your Machine

Lithium-ion polymer batteries need to be used for maximum performance. If you don’t use your device often, be sure to complete a charge cycle at least once a month. Click the links below to add regular reminders to your iCal calendar.

After following that protocol for my Powerbook during the majority of its lifetime, its battery has lasted over 4 years and only started to deteriorate the past few months.
     
JKT
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Mar 6, 2009, 08:04 AM
 
Btw, coconutBattery is a good free tool to monitor your battery with.
     
Simon
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Mar 6, 2009, 09:40 AM
 
Originally Posted by JKT View Post
Btw, coconutBattery is a good free tool to monitor your battery with.
System Profiler is a built-in free tool to monitor your battery with.
     
kylef
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Mar 6, 2009, 03:05 PM
 
Just checked out my brother's MBP unibody (mine is away getting fixed) - his power shows 4479/4494. Not bad considering he bought it in December.
     
JKT
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Mar 6, 2009, 03:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
System Profiler is a built-in free tool to monitor your battery with.
True, but let me know when they include the ability to easily record the battery data at the press of a button and I'll ditch coconutBattery
     
ghporter
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Mar 6, 2009, 10:28 PM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
System Profiler is a built-in free tool to monitor your battery with.
System Profiler doesn't give you an answer, just the data to plug into the equation. Coconut and iStat do the math for you. Not a big deal for some, but being free, iStat has its advantages in other areas as well.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
DCJ001
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Mar 6, 2009, 10:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Did you read the thread? That calibration procedure has nothing to do with battery health, it's only for the circuitry monitoring how much charge is left on the battery. Your battery won't be any healthier from doing that, you'll just possibly have a more accurate "time remaining" stat in the menu bar.
I keep my MacBook plugged in, drawing power from the wall and not the battery. I probably only unplug my MacBook from the wall, and run on battery power, a couple of short times per month.

Charles. You seem to be knowledgeable. But I read the thread, and I've also read things like:
Regularly calibrate the battery
While batteries do lose their capacity with usage, they will also die over time without usage. This doesn't mean you should use the battery all the time, but it is good to periodically run it down to ensure it's being fully used on a regular basis. Regardless of use, we recommend you regularly calibrate the battery (once every 1 to 2 months), which will not only ensure the battery is being used, but will also set the computer to properly determine the remaining time left in the battery. To calibrate the battery, you will have to charge it up fully and then allow it to fully drain. More on calibration can be found in this Apple knowledgebase article:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1490

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?...90306155555550

If my MacBook is almost always plugged into the wall, and not drawing power from its battery, shouldn't I periodically (every couple of months or so) calibrate the battery to maintain its health?
     
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Mar 7, 2009, 05:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by JKT View Post
True, but let me know when they include the ability to easily record the battery data at the press of a button and I'll ditch coconutBattery
I don't see where plotting comes in. You calculate what 80% of your original full capacity is. Once you fall under that you go to Apple. I your cycle count is <300 you get a replacement. If not you buy one. What is there to plot? IMHO there's simply no point in obsessing with these kinds of things.
     
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Mar 7, 2009, 05:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
System Profiler doesn't give you an answer, just the data to plug into the equation. Coconut and iStat do the math for you. Not a big deal for some, but being free, iStat has its advantages in other areas as well.
But there is no math. It's either a battery that needs to be replaced or one that doesn't. What I don't like about some of these tools is that they try to assign a quality rating that's entirely artificial. And also completely irrelevant to Apple. If you aks Apple for a replacement battery they won't care squat what a tool like Coconut has to say about the battery's "quality". It's all just cycle count and full charge capacity. And all this extra baloney IMHO just clouds the simple picture. It's maybe also a reason we see so many threads about it. The message need to go out that determining battery health is clear and simple.
     
Simon
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Mar 7, 2009, 05:28 AM
 
Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
If my MacBook is almost always plugged into the wall, and not drawing power from its battery, shouldn't I periodically (every couple of months or so) calibrate the battery to maintain its health?
Yes. That's also what Apple recommends.

But cycling on a weekly basis (as some people actually do) is not. And it will decrease battery life in the long run.
( Last edited by Simon; Mar 7, 2009 at 05:42 AM. )
     
ghporter
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Mar 7, 2009, 10:26 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon View Post
But there is no math. It's either a battery that needs to be replaced or one that doesn't. ... If you aks Apple for a replacement battery they won't care squat what a tool like Coconut has to say about the battery's "quality". It's all just cycle count and full charge capacity.
That's the thing...Does the mainstream user NEED to keep the "original full charge capacity" value in his head? Should he? I think not. If you're suspecting problems then using a tool that looks at those values and says "your battery is at 35% health" is a lot simpler and more straightforward than having to (if you even think of this) look up the expected "brand new" values and comparing them to the current values, then looking at the cycle count and determining if the current full charge capacity is at or below some threshold. If the tool says "your battery is going bad" through indicating some low "health percentage," then at least you're something like prepared to think about what's going on, rather than sitting there wondering if those numbers in System Profiler's output are useful to you.

I agree (again) that some people obsess about the numbers in CoconutBattery and iStat, and that's a bad thing. But as a tool (not a toy) neither one is "bad" in and of itself.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
CharlesS
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Mar 7, 2009, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by JKT View Post
...and, if we assume Apple knows what they are talking about, not cycling it will also lead to a reduction in the lifespan of the battery too:

http://www.apple.com/batteries/

From the right hand side:

Exercise Your Machine

Lithium-ion polymer batteries need to be used for maximum performance. If you don’t use your device often, [emphasis mine] be sure to complete a charge cycle at least once a month. Click the links below to add regular reminders to your iCal calendar.
Note the part I bolded - this advice is for people who let their devices sit on the shelf for a while without using them. Rechargeable batteries gradually lose some of their charge over time, even if they're not being used, so if you let them sit too long without using them or charging them, the battery will eventually go all the way down, which isn't good. The rationale being "lithium-ion batteries need to be used," if you're using your laptop and charging it when needed, then this doesn't really apply to you.

Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
Charles. You seem to be knowledgeable. But I read the thread, and I've also read things like:
Regularly calibrate the battery
While batteries do lose their capacity with usage, they will also die over time without usage. This doesn't mean you should use the battery all the time, but it is good to periodically run it down to ensure it's being fully used on a regular basis. Regardless of use, we recommend you regularly calibrate the battery (once every 1 to 2 months), which will not only ensure the battery is being used, but will also set the computer to properly determine the remaining time left in the battery. To calibrate the battery, you will have to charge it up fully and then allow it to fully drain. More on calibration can be found in this Apple knowledgebase article:
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1490

http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?...90306155555550

If my MacBook is almost always plugged into the wall, and not drawing power from its battery, shouldn't I periodically (every couple of months or so) calibrate the battery to maintain its health?
Great, reading stuff from MacFixIt as if it were gospel. All you need to do is a little basic reading on the properties of lithium-ion batteries to see if they need to be discharged or not for their health. Cycling them once a month is a good idea if you need the battery readout to be accurate, and cycling a battery that hasn't been used in a while is good to keep it from hitting a 0% charge, but cycling is not going to help the health of a battery that's being actively used.

We've got a guy with a freaking PhD in physics posting in this thread, but if you'd rather believe some page on MacFixIt written by an uncredited author, then that's your prerogative, I guess.
( Last edited by CharlesS; Mar 7, 2009 at 12:15 PM. )

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DCJ001
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Mar 7, 2009, 03:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by CharlesS View Post
Great, reading stuff from MacFixIt as if it were gospel. All you need to do is a little basic reading on the properties of lithium-ion batteries to see if they need to be discharged or not for their health. Cycling them once a month is a good idea if you need the battery readout to be accurate, and cycling a battery that hasn't been used in a while is good to keep it from hitting a 0% charge, but cycling is not going to help the health of a battery that's being actively used.

We've got a guy with a freaking PhD in physics posting in this thread, but if you'd rather believe some page on MacFixIt written by an uncredited author, then that's your prerogative, I guess.
Charles. You've been snarky with me a couple of times in this thread. I'm just looking for the best way to maintain a MacBook's battery's health. If the information on a MacFixIt page makes sense, along with the following information from Apple:
Exercise Your Machine
Lithium-ion polymer batteries need to be used for maximum performance. If you don’t use your device (battery?) often, be sure to complete a charge cycle at least once a month.
http://www.apple.com/batteries/

I use my MacBook daily. But I rarely draw power from its battery.

Maybe I'll ask someone at the Genius bar the next time I'm in an Apple store since they should know what the bottom line is. They may not have degrees in Physics, but, from what I understand, they have received training in Cupertino and can call Cupertino if they're unsure of any details.
( Last edited by DCJ001; Mar 7, 2009 at 04:45 PM. )
     
CharlesS
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Mar 7, 2009, 08:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
If you don’t use your device (battery?) often
The device, in this case, is your MacBook.

I use my MacBook daily. But I rarely draw power from its battery.
If you're using it while it's plugged in, you're keeping the battery charged. The issue with not using the device is that the battery eventually drains. When you use your battery, it generally stops you before you can run the battery completely down, but if you're letting it sit on a shelf, you don't have that protection, and it'll eventually go all the way down to zero, where it will suffer damage.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't calibrate the battery once every month or two - that will help the battery indicator stay accurate, if you depend on that. But it shouldn't have anything to do with the actual health of the battery.

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Mar 7, 2009, 11:11 PM
 
Okay. I'm a little bit on the slow side. And I know that there's nothing that can be said to change Chuck's stance on this issue.

But Apple says:
Standard Maintenance
For proper maintenance of a lithium-based battery, it’s important to keep the electrons in it moving occasionally. Apple does not recommend leaving your portable plugged in all the time. An ideal use would be a commuter who uses her MacBook Pro on the train, then plugs it in at the office to charge. This keeps the battery juices flowing. If on the other hand, you use a desktop computer at work, and save a notebook for infrequent travel, Apple recommends charging and discharging its battery at least once per month.
http://www.apple.com/batteries/notebooks.html

I didn't see any references to the battery gauge in this paragraph. And it sounds like they are giving advice for "proper maintenance of a lithium-based battery."

I just listen to any credible sources and decide on what makes sense. Apple seems like a credible source.

I wonder what the nuclear physicists here think?
     
ghporter
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Mar 8, 2009, 12:31 PM
 
CharlesS's advice is EXACTLY what Apple said, but in different words. Use the computer ON BATTERY now and then. Let the battery discharge pretty far about once a month, then charge it fully (implying to me that you do this with the computer turned off so it ONLY charges). No big difference between CharlesS's posts and what you quote from Apple...

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
bikeboy
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Apr 12, 2009, 08:42 PM
 
Can anyone recommend a good replacement brand? I replaced my original Apple battery with a NuPower battery, but 15 months later and it's down to less than 1/2 capacity. My machine: 12" G4 PowerBook
     
   
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