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King Bob On The Cob · Mar 19, 2006, 07:21 PM

http://www.andymatuschak.org/article...e-themed-party

Seems to me that with some clever hacks, one could use APE to overwrite the methods described in this article and completely theme the OS. (while not being the safest route, it also could be the most customizable route)

I mean, common, moving the close button around is as simple as replacing this function.

- (NSPoint)_closeButtonOrigin;

Perhaps someone should go through AppKit with class-dump and find out how to move everything around. Also, being free to set anything anywhere could be a huge advantage...

Chuckit · Mar 19, 2006, 07:23 PM

By "the OS," I guess you mean "Cocoa apps."

King Bob On The Cob · Mar 19, 2006, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

By "the OS," I guess you mean "Cocoa apps."

Well, if there's calls like this in Cocoa, there is probably similar calls in Carbon. It's just a matter of locating them...

Catfish_Man · Mar 19, 2006, 09:57 PM

Originally Posted by King Bob On The Cob

http://www.andymatuschak.org/article...e-themed-party

Seems to me that with some clever hacks, one could use APE to overwrite the methods described in this article and completely theme the OS. (while not being the safest route, it also could be the most customizable route)

I mean, common, moving the close button around is as simple as replacing this function.

- (NSPoint)_closeButtonOrigin;

Perhaps someone should go through AppKit with class-dump and find out how to move everything around. Also, being free to set anything anywhere could be a huge advantage...

There's already an app that does this and packages it up in a nice themer friendly way. If I recall correctly, moving elements around is being added.

headbirth · Mar 20, 2006, 08:43 AM

Is this why certain apps have to have special skins made for them in Shapeshifter because they're Carbon-based?

iTunes is a Carbon app? Wow!

I always thought Carbon was just a temporary thing to allow for an easier transition for developers to the X platform. Apple should merge or kill it.

Person Man · Mar 20, 2006, 09:39 AM

Originally Posted by headbirth

Is this why certain apps have to have special skins made for them in Shapeshifter because they're Carbon-based?

iTunes is a Carbon app? Wow!

I always thought Carbon was just a temporary thing to allow for an easier transition for developers to the X platform. Apple should merge or kill it.

Nope, Carbon is not temporary... it's here to stay. Both Carbon and Cocoa are first-class citizens in OS X, and Apple is working very hard to bring feature parity to both.

Kevin · Mar 20, 2006, 10:00 AM

AH feels like the old PPC/68k FAT days. But worse.

We have carbon, cocoa, and now PPC/Intel

headbirth · Mar 20, 2006, 04:01 PM

Whew! Maybe they should start from scratch with OS 11.

Catfish_Man · Mar 20, 2006, 04:17 PM

Originally Posted by headbirth

Whew! Maybe they should start from scratch with OS 11.

Yeah, then we could have PPC/Intel and Carbon/Cocoa/Whatever new API OS 11 had! (hint: dropping compatibility with old apps == going out of business. There's a very good reason Rhapsody wasn't released in its original form)

Chuckit · Mar 20, 2006, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

AH feels like the old PPC/68k FAT days. But worse.

We have carbon, cocoa, and now PPC/Intel

No. One of these things is not like the others.

lesman · Mar 20, 2006, 06:47 PM

Yikes, this thing is a nightmare! I've been on the theming scene for Windows for a long while now, and it seems as though theming for Macs is in it's infancy. Am I right? Hopefully it all get's sorted out, because I'd love to see elements changed and things placed in different areas and such....that would be sweet!

Chuckit · Mar 20, 2006, 06:58 PM

Yeah, theming on OS X kind of a pain. Apple doesn't really seem to want to support it.

G0Ducks · Mar 20, 2006, 08:49 PM

Indeed. One wonders why a company like Microsoft opened up to the idea of themeing.
I remember in the beginning (win98 days) it was a lot harder to theme the OS, then there was a big change when WindowsMe came out, allowing windowblinds to theme even more! Reportedly, from Stardock (creators of Windowblinds and Object Desktop), Microsoft had made SPECIFIC changes so that WB was possible!

A company like Apple, you know... the think different company, appears to be thinking that working with developers like Unsanity isn't the kind of "different" they were talking about.

As a graphic designer, I can't imagine what it would be like to have designed the original Aqua/Graphite theme(s). What a nightmare.

Anyway, maybe this will all be subverted now that they have figured out how to get XP onto a mac...

R

headbirth · Mar 21, 2006, 07:50 AM

Well, I can understand why Apple doesn't open-up it's GUI to developers. In Apple's case their GUI is part of their branding. It has a great deal to do with their image and projects a simple, clean and consistent environment for their users. It's part of the whole Mac experience.

But, I do think they need to get their act together and offer something consistent. Hire some of these Themers to redo their GUI.

Kevin · Mar 21, 2006, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by Chuckit

No. One of these things is not like the others.

Of course not. It just REMINDS me of it.

Kevin · Mar 21, 2006, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by lesman

Yikes, this thing is a nightmare! I've been on the theming scene for Windows for a long while now, and it seems as though theming for Macs is in it's infancy. Am I right? Hopefully it all get's sorted out, because I'd love to see elements changed and things placed in different areas and such....that would be sweet!

Themeing for the Mac? No. For OS X? Yes.

headbirth · Mar 21, 2006, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Kevin

Themeing for the Mac? No. For OS X? Yes.

Yeah, I think OS9 was a piece of cake for themers.

Chuckit · Mar 21, 2006, 01:36 PM

It was easier to theme OS 9 than OS X. Not that that's saying a lot.

G0Ducks · Mar 21, 2006, 05:25 PM

Well, I really don't think that Apple is currently using the look of the OS as a branding device... Most of their branding is centered around the look of their iPod or the iMac. Really, it doesn't make sense to have your brand reflect your OS, your OS should reflect your brand.
What I mean to say is that the OS shouldn't be the definer of the brand, rather the OS should be defined by the brand.

I totally agree about apple hiring one of these themers! That said, it would probably be a lot cheeper in the long run to recode how the OS requests graphics for the visual end of the OS, than to have someone redesign the OS under the current system.

Think about it like this: If I were hired by Apple, a HUGE company with an obviously massive design budget, I would charge them about $100 - $150 per hour to redesign the OS interface. And really... I would say that is low-balling the hourly rate for a company like Apple.
Now, weigh what most experienced themers out there say how long it would take to make a from scratch (including all the mockups, test, etc...remember, we are designing for Steve now...) and the going rate to design the GUI for a major OS vendor... I think the cost would be astronomical.

However. For a long long time now there have been a few OSes out there that have used conventions of calling graphics to the GUI that make a lot more sense; Windows, BeOS, KDE, Sun, OS 9... just to name a few...

To point the proverbial finger in a different direction...
I think that there MUST be a software solution to overcome/surcomvent Apple's short-sided, limited GUI.
We as consumers need to press fairly firmly on the software companies to investigate this. AND we need to press our windows friends who are migrating to Mac, to complain about this limitation on the personal experience of MacOS.

R

Originally Posted by headbirth

Well, I can understand why Apple doesn't open-up it's GUI to developers. In Apple's case their GUI is part of their branding. It has a great deal to do with their image and projects a simple, clean and consistent environment for their users. It's part of the whole Mac experience.

But, I do think they need to get their act together and offer something consistent. Hire some of these Themers to redo their GUI.

Chuckit · Mar 21, 2006, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

We as consumers need to press fairly firmly on the software companies to investigate this.

All the software companies? Or do you just want to bug the ones who are already making theming software?

G0Ducks · Mar 21, 2006, 06:56 PM

Well, obviously... Companies that would be appropriate to pressure, namely Unsanity. They seem to have the monopoly on GUI mac software these days.

Logic, Not just for Vulcans anymore

R

Originally Posted by Chuckit

All the software companies? Or do you just want to bug the ones who are already making theming software?

headbirth · Mar 21, 2006, 08:35 PM

Was NEXT ever themed? Or is that part of the trouble.

Catfish_Man · Mar 21, 2006, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by G0Ducks

However. For a long long time now there have been a few OSes out there that have used conventions of calling graphics to the GUI that make a lot more sense; Windows, BeOS, KDE, Sun, OS 9... just to name a few...

OS9 was easy to theme partly because of its lack of memory protection.

Windows is switching to an OSX like graphics system.

G0Ducks · Mar 21, 2006, 09:52 PM

Not sure. But, when the pre-release versions of OS X were released to developers, it was rumored that there was a windows 98-ish theme to choose from... Kind of strange, eh?

Anyway. It is a true bummer that Apple doesn't simply open up to the idea of the "Personal Computing" experience. I guess that's part of what still separates the PC (personal computer) from a mac.

Tell you one other thing... I would NEVER give a client/customer a half-baked GUI. I'm amazed that Microsoft and other critics of Apple haven't had a hay-day over this. Good GUI = Good user experience.

R

Originally Posted by headbirth

Was NEXT ever themed? Or is that part of the trouble.