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Neo-Progressivism is a cancer within our society (Page 9)
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 22, 2015, 07:21 PM
 
I wouldn't want to have to sit through that before watching Star Wars.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Nov 22, 2015, 07:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Sure, but this happens everywhere, not just in education, and the bottom line is that what I said still holds true: no staff, faculty, or other students should pose a threat to independent critical thinking, no matter what they think.
I'm confused here... no threat should, or no threat does?

If you're saying should, we agree, and what I'm complaining about is it isn't.
     
subego
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Nov 22, 2015, 08:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by OAW View Post
And anyone trying to conflate the two either simply isn't the brightest or is choosing to be deliberately obtuse.

OAW
I'm not so sure of this.

I don't mind sanctions on someone who screams "******" from a pickup truck with a Confederate flag on it, or people who have a costume party with the theme of "let's mock black people".

The issue I have is most scenarios dealing with racist behavior aren't going to be this incontrovertible. Instead, what we're going to get are a lot of edge cases, and how those are dealt with are where the concern arises.

Likewise, my concern isn't what's considered racist will negatively affect me as a white person. I'm far enough away from being racist, and have enough privilege, there's a lot I'm willing to suck up. The concern is the conundrum of sanctions for edge cases can apply to anything. All it takes is for society to have a dim view of something. That's what I'm scared of. It's a very slippery slope.

I'll put it another way...

I'm anti-death penalty.

I'm not this way because I think people shouldn't get killed, I'm this way because the system used to decide who it applies to is broken. This is how I feel about sanctions for racism. I don't have a problem slapping racists, it's not trusting the system to decide who gets slapped.

We already seem to be in a situation where there's call to slap the tone deaf and/or ignorant. I argue that's a broken system.
     
OAW
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Nov 22, 2015, 10:16 PM
 
^^^

Interesting perspective. Very interesting actually.

OAW
     
besson3c
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Nov 23, 2015, 12:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Well done? It's horribly vapid.

"Nope. I believe in Jesus and want this country to be more Christian."

Well, you're wrong. Next.

(That has nothing to do with Sharia law, however. Which is far more foul than any Christian doctrine.)

What about it is untrue? You can argue that some of these viewpoints are not mainstream, and it's certain unlikely to find people that believe in this entire set of viewpoints, but I think we could cite examples of a number of right-wing politicians or forum posters here that have said things along these lines.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 23, 2015, 02:29 AM
 
Why do you care about what's true? You've already indicated that you don't care if people are horribly inconsistent in their views, or that they often use their beliefs as an excuse to suppress the freedoms of others. (Ex. Self-labeled "Liberals" who care little about individual liberty.) How is any further discussion with you on this matter not a waste of my time?

---------------------

Moving right along.

VIDEO: ‘Black Lives Matter’ protesters rage against students in Dartmouth library - EAGnews.org

Another day, another racist demonstration on a campus:

HANOVER, N.H. – The Black Lives Matter movement is spiraling out of control, especially on college campuses.

Recent protests at the University of Missouri forced out the institution's president and chancellor, and Yale students have also targeted an administrator who refused to police Halloween costumes.

Most recently, students at Dartmouth targeted their white classmates with physical and verbal abuse in what was allegedly a protest designed to highlight those same “injustices” faced by blacks. Well over 100 Black Lives Matter student protesters dressed in black stormed Dartmouth College Baker-Berry Library last week, and things quickly got ugly.

“F*** you, you filthy white f***s!” protesters shouted at students studying for exams Thursday. “F*** you and your comfort!”

“F*** you, you racist s***!” they screamed between relentless chants of “Black lives matter!”

In total, about 150 Black Lives Matter student protesters gathered outside of Dartmouth Hall, “Ostensibly … to denounce the removal of shirts from a display in (Dartmouth’s) Collis” Center, The Dartmouth Review reports.
"All we have to lose are our chains!" The only chains any of these privileged shits have ever worn are made of gold. So pathetic.

Were any of the students punished for any of this? The assaults, hate speech, or disturbance of the peace? You're joking right? Of course not, speaking against it would be "racist".
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 23, 2015, 02:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm far enough away from being racist, and have enough privilege, there's a lot I'm willing to suck up.
This makes little sense to me. Seems like a complete waste of time and effort, all the evaluating your own privilege and sucking up. Like wallowing in guilt, it's entirely self-defeating. Check your moral compass, and if you do something bad, apologize (when possible), work to rectify the situation, and try not to do it again.

It's simple. If something is within my control and I see there's a problem, I work to fix it, if it isn't and I can't, then I don't. All the rest is just needless self-flagellation.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
besson3c
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Nov 23, 2015, 09:22 AM
 
Tightpants: if that is your interpretation of what I've expressed so far, you're right, this is a waste of time.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 23, 2015, 10:14 AM
 
     
Chongo
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Nov 23, 2015, 10:33 AM
 
The side Valerie Jarrett tells him to be on.
45/47
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 23, 2015, 11:07 AM
 
Hes on whatever side earns him the most money.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
BadKosh
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Nov 23, 2015, 12:03 PM
 
But everything is fine, you have nothing to worry about....so goes the fictional narrative.

Emails show DOD analysts told to 'cut it out' on ISIS warnings; IG probe expands | Fox News
     
Chongo
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Nov 23, 2015, 12:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by BadKosh View Post
But everything is fine, you have nothing to worry about....so goes the fictional narrative.

Emails show DOD analysts told to 'cut it out' on ISIS warnings; IG probe expands | Fox News
45/47
     
subego
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Nov 23, 2015, 06:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
This makes little sense to me. Seems like a complete waste of time and effort, all the evaluating your own privilege and sucking up. Like wallowing in guilt, it's entirely self-defeating. Check your moral compass, and if you do something bad, apologize (when possible), work to rectify the situation, and try not to do it again.

It's simple. If something is within my control and I see there's a problem, I work to fix it, if it isn't and I can't, then I don't. All the rest is just needless self-flagellation.
I tried to stuff way too many ideas into that sentence. Seriously, it's a ****ing mess.

It sounds like you're talking about "check your privilege, shitlord" type privilege, correct?
     
ghporter
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Nov 23, 2015, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
This is true, but I fear that there are comparatively very few traditional Progressives left. How about this: Neo-Progressivism is a cancer within our society

I put in a thread title request to match that.
I could live with that. Teddy Roosevelt was Progressive and nothing like what people who call themselves "progressive" today are.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Chongo
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Nov 23, 2015, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter View Post
I could live with that. Teddy Roosevelt was Progressive and nothing like what people who call themselves "progressive" today are.
Teddy did send this letter.
https://www.dnalc.org/view/11219-T-R...roducing-.html
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 23, 2015, 10:53 PM
 
Shit just got real!!1! I'm nearly in tears from laughing at this, it's too much... too much.

Vanderbilt 'Hate Crime' Is Just Blind Girl's Dog Poop | Truth Revolt

Vanderbilt students found a bag of dog poop on the steps of the university's black cultural center and immediately began screaming "hate crime." The discovery was made following a student demonstration against racism.

The group immediately denounced the bag of poop as hate-inspired.

The initial poop post went up yesterday on Facebook, but has since been deleted. It read:

"The Hidden Dores team is appalled to announce that our demonstration yesterday was met this morning with a vile act. This morning someone left a bag of feces on the porch of Vanderbilt University's Black Cultural Center. The center has served as the nexus of many aspects of Black life on Vanderbilt's campus since it's [sic] inception 31 years ago. The violation of a place that in many ways is the sole home for Black students is deplorable. As many of us sit in grief, recognize that these types of actions are what we speak of when we note the reality of exclusion and isolation of students of color and specifically Black students on our campus. This act has hurt many and will nto be received lightly. We will not allow for the desecration of the place we call home. As we announced yesterday and reaffirm today, we will not be silent."

The post went viral on campus and the university police began an investigation.

It turns out that that bag of poop belonged to a female blind student's guide dog.

"I would like to inform everyone on this campus that no racial threat occurred. I am a blind student on this campus with a guide dog. I was meeting with a group last night to go over our debate for one of my sociology classes. My dog did her business outside on the grass and I picked it up and put it in a bag like always...I did not want to bring the feces inside and make the building smell, so I left it outside by the door...Everyone is going to point me out now as the blind girl who left her dog feces by the black cultural center. I am sorry that I do not know where all the trash cans are on main campus...The Vanderbilt police were obviously able to look at cameras and figure out that it was Marley and I becasue [sic] I got a call asking if I left her feces outside of the door."
I feel bad for the kid, and her dog, I'm sure they didn't mean to be racists.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 23, 2015, 10:57 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I tried to stuff way too many ideas into that sentence. Seriously, it's a ****ing mess.

It sounds like you're talking about "check your privilege, shitlord" type privilege, correct?
Yeah, that ****ed-up crap they're spewing now. It and White Guilt are some of the most pathetic concepts ever invented.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 23, 2015, 11:06 PM
 
Facts are facts:

"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2015, 09:22 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Yeah, that ****ed-up crap they're spewing now. It and White Guilt are some of the most pathetic concepts ever invented.
Like a lot of sociology concepts, I think it has value, but then gets weaponized (I'm talking about privilege, white guilt is bad the whole way through).

What's notable about privilege is it's like a fnord. People don't necessarily see it.

The way it's used in social justice circles can also cause unease like a fnord, but I don't think it's a requirement. I agree wallowing in it doesn't do any good.

The overall concept strikes me as valid, though. I don't know how else I would term, say, "he" being the default gendered pronoun. That bugs me, so I don't do it, but I'm not going to get on someone's case should they disagree.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 24, 2015, 11:39 AM
 
It's really not something I "check", or even think about. Doesn't seem at all valid to me, in fact it looks like just another way to try and cultivate guilt. Most social "science" concepts feel that way to me, cheap ploys to try and shame others into being manipulated.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego
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Nov 24, 2015, 11:50 AM
 
Well, I mentioned the pronoun thing. I think one can argue over its importance, but I have yet to hear an argument invalidating it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 24, 2015, 07:46 PM
 
For the life of me I can't see how the pronoun thing matters, unless the person has an extraordinarily fragile ego. When we go to women's group events I get referred to as; "Kim's husband", "the man", guy, dude, fella, cis-norm, bro, etc. very rarely He or Him. Doesn't matter to me at all, because I don't live for their approval, but I do think it's funny that they can't even abide by their own rules for such things.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
ghporter
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Nov 24, 2015, 10:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Eugenics was big until people started implementing it. As an intellectual exercise, maybe it was fun to talk about. Then "stock management" became "playing God." That sort of put the kibosh on how interesting it was, at least publicly.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
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Nov 25, 2015, 05:07 PM
 
45/47
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 25, 2015, 05:59 PM
 
It's true, Millennials are the birth of the Idiocracy.
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
subego
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Nov 25, 2015, 08:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
For the life of me I can't see how the pronoun thing matters, unless the person has an extraordinarily fragile ego. When we go to women's group events I get referred to as; "Kim's husband", "the man", guy, dude, fella, cis-norm, bro, etc. very rarely He or Him. Doesn't matter to me at all, because I don't live for their approval, but I do think it's funny that they can't even abide by their own rules for such things.
Well, it's generally bad form to use third person pronouns to refer to someone in the room.

Once again, I've engaged in some sloppy posting. I ended up saying the opposite of what I wanted to say.

What I'm talking about is using "he" to mean "he or she", "him" to mean "him or her", and "his" to mean "his or hers".

I choose this example because it's pretty indisputable women are getting the short end of the stick out of it. Other examples are often not as clear in that regard.
     
BadKosh
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Nov 25, 2015, 08:51 PM
 
It's really a shame that the modern liberal stooge can't think, but only emote.
Add to that that they are so thinned skinned to be offended by opinions they don't agree with or have never been exposed to makes them WORTHLESS as people.
( Last edited by BadKosh; Nov 26, 2015 at 04:11 PM. )
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 26, 2015, 12:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Well, it's generally bad form to use third person pronouns to refer to someone in the room.

Once again, I've engaged in some sloppy posting. I ended up saying the opposite of what I wanted to say.

What I'm talking about is using "he" to mean "he or she", "him" to mean "him or her", and "his" to mean "his or hers".

I choose this example because it's pretty indisputable women are getting the short end of the stick out of it. Other examples are often not as clear in that regard.
They have so many other benefits, however, that make up for it. Ex. If both a man and woman are shit-faced drunk, why is it the man who automatically gets assumed to be the transgressor (and potentially gets charged with rape)? And if a woman is ever convicted of a crime (which is 20% less likely in a jury trial) on average they receive a 40% lighter sentence. And, despite the fact women inflict 42% of domestic violence, 99.9% of all abuse shelters solely cater to them. Then there's the Selective Service thing... and they can opt out of the financial responsibility of being a parent at will... not to mention they can stand up in public and say the most vile things about men, and we're expected to just take it, but if you do the same about women they brand you as a misogynist. I can think of a lot more too, because I write all their privileges down at those meetings, just to pass the time.

Oh, also it's automatically assumed that the man will pay for dates, at restaurants the damned server doesn't even ask, they just place the check next to the man every time. (That one pisses off my wife quite a bit, and in the past she's let them know about it.)
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subego
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Nov 26, 2015, 12:47 PM
 
I have a beef with one of your examples: lack of shelters.

At whose feet are you laying the blame for that? Is there something stopping men from making them?

As far as the rest goes, I think they're valid to a certain extent, but it's not like pronouns are the sole disadvantage. If we're going to argue whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, don't we need to be comparing bigger lists?

We can go straight to the nuclear option. As you mentioned, women have a clear-cut advantage when it comes to lying about rape. Don't men have a clear-cut advantage when it comes to the likelihood of getting raped by a woman?

It strikes me as odd to claim the pronoun disadvantage is what balances out the ability to falsely accuse of rape, rather than the chances of actually getting raped somewhere along the line.

I mean, the only reason women get the advantage to lie about rape is as fallout from the disadvantage of demonstrably being rape targets.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 26, 2015, 03:03 PM
 
That's because there are more false rape claims, which are as bad as rape itself, than there are actual rapes. (The "1 in 4" statistic is a bald-faced lie, along with the wage gap malarky.) Aside from sheer physical strength, and men being slightly more intelligent at the top of the scale (balanced by being less so at the bottom), there are no disadvantages for women in a modern Western society. OTOH, there are many, many in the Middle East... which for some reason feminists ignore in their support of Islam. I suppose our faux Patriarchy doesn't compare to the real thing.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 26, 2015, 03:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
For the life of me I can't see how the pronoun thing matters, unless the person has an extraordinarily fragile ego. When we go to women's group events I get referred to as; "Kim's husband", "the man", guy, dude, fella, cis-norm, bro, etc. very rarely He or Him. Doesn't matter to me at all, because I don't live for their approval, but I do think it's funny that they can't even abide by their own rules for such things.
You should pitch a fit and make them call you Cap'n Tightpants.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 26, 2015, 03:58 PM
 
For a bunch of guys who say they can't stand crying and bitching, there is an awful lot of crying and bitching going on in this thread.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 26, 2015, 04:11 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's because there are more false rape claims, which are as bad as rape itself, than there are actual rapes. (The "1 in 4" statistic is a bald-faced lie, along with the wage gap malarky.)
What are you basing that on? Not the wage-gap, the false rape.

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
there are many, many in the Middle East... which for some reason feminists ignore in their support of Islam. I suppose our faux Patriarchy doesn't compare to the real thing.

Do feminists support Islam? Can't say its something I've really noticed much.
There is currently a myriad of issues being discussed about Islam and its influences and the Muslims are very keen to dispel the connections between these traits and their faith, instead labelling them cultural issues rather than the result of religious influences. In the case of FGM I suspect they might be right, in regards to women rights I am much less convinced.
Its clear to all that stronger religious convictions the world over correlate pretty well with increased control over women by men. Its certainly the case among the more hardcore Christians in western society (which is probably why those servers still give you the bill), its just much worse in Islamic countries. And of course, just because the Koran has some pretty shitty things to say about how women should be thought of and treated, doesn't mean they wouldn't be treated that way without it. (The bible isn't great either)
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 26, 2015, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
You should pitch a fit and make them call you Cap'n Tightpants.
I sit with a bemused expression the whole time, it's much more "triggering".

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
For a bunch of guys who say they can't stand crying and bitching, there is an awful lot of crying and bitching going on in this thread.
I said I can't stand "crying and bitching"? If you have a real issue to bitch about, that's one thing, but making up shit to cry over (Ex. feminists going on about gender inequality) is another thing entirely. Like this little gem: Don’t teach women to negotiate their salaries. Just ban salary negotiations altogether.

Great, let's just give corporations all control over your salary, how does that stupid shit even begin to fit with empowering workers?
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 26, 2015, 04:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
What are you basing that on? Not the wage-gap, the false rape.
Sexual Assault, Wage Gap, and More Feminist Myths that Will Not Die
SEX, LIES, AND RAPE - Search - Center for Military Readiness
How To Lie And Mislead With Rape Statistics: Part 1 | Data Gone Odd

There is one final thing I find curious about their critique of the Kanin study. If they feel that the use of the polygraph is throwing off the results of the study so much, you would think they would at least mention the addenda to the study that describes a different data set that they later gained access to7. In 1998 Kanin obtained access to the police records of two large Midwestern state universities. The result? Over a three year period, 50% of the forcible rape complaints were false. Once again, only cases that included a recantation of the charge were classified as false, and there was no use of polygraph this time. Here is what Kanin had to say about that data

In both police agencies, the taking of the complaint and the follow-up investigation was the exclusive responsibility of a ranking female officer. Neither agency employed the polygraph and neither declared the complaint false without a recantation of the charge. Most striking is the patterning of the reasons for the false allegations given by the complainants, a patterning similar to that found for the nonstudent city complainants. Approximately one half (53%) of the false charges were verbalized as serving an alibi function. In every case, consensual sexual involvement led to problems whose solution seemed to be found in the filing of a rape charge. The complaints motivated by revenge, about 44%, were of the same seemingly trivial and spiteful nature as those encountered by the city police agency.
I'm not saying rape isn't a real thing, it certainly is, it's a devastating crime, but so is a false rape claim. Both things destroy lives. What makes it even worse is that modern feminists keep widening the scope of what rape is, which only works to trivialize the term.

Do feminists support Islam? Can't say its something I've really noticed much.
There is currently a myriad of issues being discussed about Islam and its influences and the Muslims are very keen to dispel the connections between these traits and their faith, instead labelling them cultural issues rather than the result of religious influences. In the case of FGM I suspect they might be right, in regards to women rights I am much less convinced.
Its clear to all that stronger religious convictions the world over correlate pretty well with increased control over women by men. Its certainly the case among the more hardcore Christians in western society (which is probably why those servers still give you the bill), its just much worse in Islamic countries. And of course, just because the Koran has some pretty shitty things to say about how women should be thought of and treated, doesn't mean they wouldn't be treated that way without it. (The bible isn't great either)
They do, and it baffles me. In terms of female oppression, no one tops Islam.

As ISIS brutalizes women, a pathetic feminist silence | New York Post
Few feminists dare criticise Islam. To see why, look at the ones who do - Spectator Blogs
I'm a feminist and I converted to Islam - CNN.com
Why Do Gays, Feminists, Actors, Comedians And Whiny Atheists Give Islam A Pass? ⋆ Doug Giles ⋆ #ClashDaily
Why Feminism is AWOL on Islam by Kay S. Hymowitz, City Journal Winter 2003

It's entirely ****ed up and none of them can give me a concrete reason. Personally, I think it's because Islam scares the shit out of them, it's some form of bizarro Stockholm syndrome.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 27, 2015, 06:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Sexual Assault, Wage Gap, and More Feminist Myths that Will Not Die
SEX, LIES, AND RAPE - Search - Center for Military Readiness
How To Lie And Mislead With Rape Statistics: Part 1 | Data Gone Odd


I'm not saying rape isn't a real thing, it certainly is, it's a devastating crime, but so is a false rape claim. Both things destroy lives. What makes it even worse is that modern feminists keep widening the scope of what rape is, which only works to trivialize the term.
I'm cherry picking your links and reading one of each.

I see one of them is implying that female police officers seem to be encouraging reports of rape where men believe no rape has taken place and they base the numbers of cases that turn out to be false on recanted statements. I'm perfectly willing to believe that false claims are on the rise as revenge tactics, I recall seeing kids at school learn the trick of calling teachers paedophiles to get out of being told off. I also think it is naive to omit the possibility that some of these cases go away because of undeclared out of court settlements. Whether those are bribes or threats I cannot say.

As for widening the scope, I have to admit it troubles me sometimes too. I've seen cases where the difference between rape and consent is little more than regret.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQbei5JGiT8

Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
They do, and it baffles me. In terms of female oppression, no one tops Islam.

As ISIS brutalizes women, a pathetic feminist silence | New York Post
Few feminists dare criticise Islam. To see why, look at the ones who do - Spectator Blogs
I'm a feminist and I converted to Islam - CNN.com
Why Do Gays, Feminists, Actors, Comedians And Whiny Atheists Give Islam A Pass? ⋆ Doug Giles ⋆ #ClashDaily
Why Feminism is AWOL on Islam by Kay S. Hymowitz, City Journal Winter 2003

It's entirely ****ed up and none of them can give me a concrete reason. Personally, I think it's because Islam scares the shit out of them, it's some form of bizarro Stockholm syndrome.
Given magazine offices getting attacked with AK47s and bloggers being beheaded for promoting atheism, I can understand that a great many people are simply too scared to speak out and make themselves targets. Especially if they already feel like they are targets for others. Certainly many publishers will prevent anything potentially offensive to Islam from getting out. Comedy Central eventually baulked when South Park wanted to depict the prophet.

I have an aunt and uncle who are very liberal and tolerant of everything and my aunt has been a feminist since long before I was born so I was really surprised when I had a dig and they told me I should respect peoples religious views. Even so far as to defend Islam. This is because people wired that way follow progressive trends of this campaign and that campaign. They get tied in knots a bit when two campaigns they should support are at odds. At the moment its 'help the Syrian refugees' but there is also a long standing undertone of 'don't say anything that could be construed as Islamophobic'. Sadly the latter includes any form of criticism of the religion, its rules etc. I got the lecture that it wasn't about religion, it was all just the male obsession with power and control. So I guess because someone has institutionalised that theme and called it sacred we should just do nothing about it.

I read the link about the convert but once you get a few details its not difficult to work out whats happened there. She seems preoccupied with modesty and being raised Catholic this is understandable and it is a common theme Catholicism has with Islam. Both in their stricter forms are rather restrictive about female dress, impure thoughts, sexual activity, marriage. She was raised with one, so its not shocking that she wouldn't be able to get on board with it in the other.
I keep hearing these claims about women rights, though usually its owning property and running businesses, I've not heard the one about marital consent before. Even if its true, I get the distinct impression that the woman's consent counts just fine as far as the men are concerned even if they are holding a knife to her throat. Otherwise why would they be so happy to kill their daughters for marrying other men? And while she asserts that female consent is required, she doesn't mention that her fathers consent is also required. Not much of a right really is it? She gets a theoretical veto which is going to be ignored by daddy if he wants more camels or whatever.

She's clearly not a great critical thinker and she's also clearly susceptible to brainwashing by propaganda. She still insisted on a marrying a convert who will be far more likely to have been brought up with more enlightened western attitudes to women. (Though maybe not so much if he's from Alabama. I guess thats still better than someone raised in Iran or Saudi Arabia.) I can only assume that she is less convinced than she claims about this liberal and enlightened religion she's joined. Maybe she was just lonely. Islam: Better than Tinder?
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 27, 2015, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
I'm cherry picking your links and reading one of each.

I see one of them is implying that female police officers seem to be encouraging reports of rape where men believe no rape has taken place and they base the numbers of cases that turn out to be false on recanted statements. I'm perfectly willing to believe that false claims are on the rise as revenge tactics, I recall seeing kids at school learn the trick of calling teachers paedophiles to get out of being told off. I also think it is naive to omit the possibility that some of these cases go away because of undeclared out of court settlements. Whether those are bribes or threats I cannot say.

As for widening the scope, I have to admit it troubles me sometimes too. I've seen cases where the difference between rape and consent is little more than regret.
Okay, maybe a little cherry-picking, but the "2% narrative" is so strong it's difficult to find authors that will publish findings that run afoul of it, generally they'll just bury their research rather than say anything to the contrary, and that's a little scary. Regret isn't rape, ever. But that's what's being taught now.

Given magazine offices getting attacked with AK47s and bloggers being beheaded for promoting atheism, I can understand that a great many people are simply too scared to speak out and make themselves targets. Especially if they already feel like they are targets for others. Certainly many publishers will prevent anything potentially offensive to Islam from getting out. Comedy Central eventually baulked when South Park wanted to depict the prophet.

I have an aunt and uncle who are very liberal and tolerant of everything and my aunt has been a feminist since long before I was born so I was really surprised when I had a dig and they told me I should respect peoples religious views. Even so far as to defend Islam. This is because people wired that way follow progressive trends of this campaign and that campaign. They get tied in knots a bit when two campaigns they should support are at odds. At the moment its 'help the Syrian refugees' but there is also a long standing undertone of 'don't say anything that could be construed as Islamophobic'. Sadly the latter includes any form of criticism of the religion, its rules etc. I got the lecture that it wasn't about religion, it was all just the male obsession with power and control. So I guess because someone has institutionalised that theme and called it sacred we should just do nothing about it.

I read the link about the convert but once you get a few details its not difficult to work out whats happened there. She seems preoccupied with modesty and being raised Catholic this is understandable and it is a common theme Catholicism has with Islam. Both in their stricter forms are rather restrictive about female dress, impure thoughts, sexual activity, marriage. She was raised with one, so its not shocking that she wouldn't be able to get on board with it in the other.
I keep hearing these claims about women rights, though usually its owning property and running businesses, I've not heard the one about marital consent before. Even if its true, I get the distinct impression that the woman's consent counts just fine as far as the men are concerned even if they are holding a knife to her throat. Otherwise why would they be so happy to kill their daughters for marrying other men? And while she asserts that female consent is required, she doesn't mention that her fathers consent is also required. Not much of a right really is it? She gets a theoretical veto which is going to be ignored by daddy if he wants more camels or whatever.

She's clearly not a great critical thinker and she's also clearly susceptible to brainwashing by propaganda. She still insisted on a marrying a convert who will be far more likely to have been brought up with more enlightened western attitudes to women. (Though maybe not so much if he's from Alabama. I guess thats still better than someone raised in Iran or Saudi Arabia.) I can only assume that she is less convinced than she claims about this liberal and enlightened religion she's joined. Maybe she was just lonely. Islam: Better than Tinder?
Yeah, it makes no bloody sense to me. It makes me wish Christopher Hitchens was still around, though I disagreed with him on several issues (ex. equating male circumcision to tearing off a woman's clitoris), he saw this coming >10 years ago.
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but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 27, 2015, 12:11 PM
 
Ripped from Faisal Saeed Al Mutar's blog.

It's like a bad Monty Python sketch:

"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
"No you didn't."
"Wait, what? Yes we did..."
"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."
"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."
"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."
"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."
"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."
"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"
"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."
"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."
"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."
"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"
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subego
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Nov 27, 2015, 02:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
That's because there are more false rape claims, which are as bad as rape itself, than there are actual rapes. (The "1 in 4" statistic is a bald-faced lie, along with the wage gap malarky.) Aside from sheer physical strength, and men being slightly more intelligent at the top of the scale (balanced by being less so at the bottom), there are no disadvantages for women in a modern Western society.
The Data Gone Odd article is excellent... kudos!

You're alleging there are more false claims than actual rapes. I've only found one study which finds numbers significantly higher than 50%. Would you consider the 50% number acceptable for discussion purposes, or is there data I'm missing?
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 27, 2015, 03:05 PM
 
Upon more research, I'd say 35-40% is probably the most likely (which is the range given by the JAG's office, the only federal group who appears to give zero shits about what rad-fems think). I'm trying to find a link to the Jane's Defense article that isn't behind their paywall. However, I'm not sure if being in the military makes one more or less likely to make spurious claims like that. One thing's for certain though, the 2 and 9% figures are pure hokum.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 28, 2015, 09:18 AM
 
The Islamic world needs more feminists like this one:

100 Women 2015: Return of a topless rebel - BBC News
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 28, 2015, 02:50 PM
 
It takes real courage to do what Amina Sboui did. Feminists in Western cultures? Not so much.
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subego
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Nov 29, 2015, 09:11 AM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
Upon more research, I'd say 35-40% is probably the most likely (which is the range given by the JAG's office, the only federal group who appears to give zero shits about what rad-fems think). I'm trying to find a link to the Jane's Defense article that isn't behind their paywall. However, I'm not sure if being in the military makes one more or less likely to make spurious claims like that. One thing's for certain though, the 2 and 9% figures are pure hokum.
At what point would you agree it doesn't balance out anymore? If we start at 60/40, and account for a couple variables (unreported rapes, false claims where no attacker is identified) the number is probably closer to 70/30.

Further, I feel the disparity in penalties is a factor. The penalty for rape is severe, while the penalty for a false claim may as well be considered non-existent. Even if we jump back to a 50/50 split, and therefore have equivalent damages being wrought by both sides, one still strikes me as fundamentally scarier than the other. Women make false claims because they can get away with it, men continue to rape even though they don't.
     
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Nov 29, 2015, 01:43 PM
 
At least we (men) are still innocent until proven guilty when someone accuses us of... oh dear...

Men must prove a woman said 'Yes' under tough new rape rules - Telegraph

That's some major league privilege, right there.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 29, 2015, 01:53 PM
 
Here's one for the weekly WTF pile: College Students Say Remembering 9/11 Is Offensive to Muslims - The Daily Beast

Then I suppose we shouldn't mention Pearl Harbor because of how some Japanese might feel? Or the Little Bighorn because of Native Americans? Exactly what in the hell are students learning in college? Because it sure as **** isn't history or literature.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Nov 29, 2015, 02:32 PM
 
Oh Uni of Missouri, thou art a treasure trove of batshit people. Univ. of Missouri prof arrested for dragging hijab-less teenage girl by the hair. I can't understand why some people are fearful of Islam, it's not like supposedly moderate muslims are brutally dragging young girls around by their hair while beating and swearing at them. She wasn't wearing her hijab though, so the little slut had it coming.
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subego
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Nov 29, 2015, 05:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
At least we (men) are still innocent until proven guilty when someone accuses us of... oh dear...

Men must prove a woman said 'Yes' under tough new rape rules - Telegraph

That's some major league privilege, right there.
None of this is law.

The "proof" mentioned in the headline isn't what needs to be shown to the court, it's what needs to be shown to police and prosecutors to get them off your tail.

This is like any crime. If cops and prosecutors think you're guilty, you need to prove it to them you're not or you tell it to the judge.

The issue the guidelines attempt to address are people who are guilty of rape even though lack of consent wasn't verbalized. The guidelines say "if this is the situation, you should still try to go after the guilty person".

I'll also note in my comparison analysis, I put unreported rapes as 20% of all rapes. The U.K. is claiming almost the inverse. They say reported rapes make up only 25% of all rapes.
     
Waragainstsleep
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Nov 29, 2015, 11:06 PM
 
I feel like sexual assault needs more terminology to differentiate the different kinds. Groping someone on a crowded subway is very different to beating them and raping them at knife point yet the description is always just 'sexual assault'. There is even a big difference between someone not saying no because they froze and someone being pinned and forced. Maybe not so much as far as the victim is concerned but these are different kinds of criminal. The first guy might need to learn a lesson having made a fairly innocent mistake, but the second guy I want locked up for as long as possible.
At the very least there should be 'with violence' and 'armed' qualifiers like you have with robbery.
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Waragainstsleep
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Nov 29, 2015, 11:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'll also note in my comparison analysis, I put unreported rapes as 20% of all rapes. The U.K. is claiming almost the inverse. They say reported rapes make up only 25% of all rapes.
Sadly I'm beginning to think the latter is closest to the truth. It may still be less than the real figure.

It makes a lot of sense too. Women whose rapists are more powerful or influential than them, who are unavoidable members of their family or extended family, who are violent or abusive or dangerous, women with low self esteem are all cases where you can understand why a report doesn't get filed.
Prostitutes or vulnerable women who have been raped repeatedly will tend not to bother reporting it too.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
 
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