Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

mrmister · Mar 1, 2006, 01:04 PM

Per Macintouch, it appears that the MBP, in addition to losing ports, battery life and screen angle flexibility while gaining a much larger power adapter and more heat, has also lost the ability to sleep swap batteries--an ability posessed by every high-end Apple portable since the Lombard, I believe, or even earlier.

Can someone confirm who has a MBP? If it's true, it's a great loss--I use this feature *all* the time...and with the battery life on the MBP, I'd be using it even more often.

Maflynn · Mar 1, 2006, 01:09 PM

meh, not an issue for me.

I think the advantages of MPB outweigh the powerbook.

Karim · 01:49 PM

I have a 2.16/2GB Ram/7200rpm 100GB drive.

When my second battery arrives I will report back on the hotswap.

But as for the pros & cons:

Cons:
Screen tilt - Doesn't bother me in the least, in fact, I'm using the laptop in bed right now. And it doesn't bother me on a desk, or in a chair.

Heat:
It gets hotter, but it doesn't bother me because I wear clothes when I use it. But, the fan doesn't run constantly like my old Tibook 15" 800 used to...

Hot swap bettery:
unknown at moment - but it would rarely bother me, because this machine boots in like 5 seconds...

Power adaptor:
Yes it is bigger, but it looks the same and is bigger by only about 33% in my subjective guess.

Firewire 800:
Yes, it's gone. No, I didn't have any FW800 peripherals so I guess I have to say it doesn't bother me. But, as Steve Jobs once said, "We have to be careful about adding things, because once we do we can't take them away". He of course has been known at times to say one thing and do another. Maybe they wan't to differentiate the 17" (or 19"?) from the 15" when it comes out by having it be the one machine with the port.

Expresscard:
I used to use a CF PC card in my 1.67 17" laptop for my digital camera. I can't do that now, and have to carry a USB reader. This should be only a temporary con until they come out with an expresscard CF reader.

Whine/buzz:
Don't have it, so don't know. But, one of my older Ti-books used to do it and i HATED IT!

AND NOW...

PROS:

Speed - It is unbelivably fast and I have used Apple's since 1978 without ever leaving. It boots in around 5 seconds, it opens & closes apps and windows instantly, and it doesn't bog down when running an emulator or other intensive process.

Screen - I use it mostly in the bottom 1/3rd of screen brightness because the top settings would cause retina burn! It is very vivid. I used to use my 17" on max brightness.

Battery life - Same or slightly better than my 17" when doing light work 3:00. When seriously using both processors at max tilt I would say 60% battery life, around 1:45.

Isight - Great quality and convenient now... I don't have to take my isight around with me, which I didn't anyway.

Quality - build quality as good as ever, keyboard feels nice and keyboard illumination bright and even.

That's all for now...

Big Mac · Mar 1, 2006, 03:25 PM

How much of an exaggeration is this five second boot time you're referring to? I have seen 30 seconds to as much as 2 minutes reported. I simply cannot believe it's five seconds to the login window.

mduell · Mar 1, 2006, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Karim

Expresscard:
I used to use a CF PC card in my 1.67 17" laptop for my digital camera. I can't do that now, and have to carry a USB reader. This should be only a temporary con until they come out with an expresscard CF reader.

IIRC, CF is thicker than EC slots.

mrplow · Mar 1, 2006, 04:30 PM

booting macbook pro...

(keep in mind i have software installed and it's not a pure-fresh test, which would be faster.. i think)

[hit power button, machine is plugged in, nothing in optical drive]
start: 3:27:30

booting...

3:28:00: "Starting Mac OS X" with aqua progress bar disappears and screen is momentarily solid aqua:

end: 3:28:13 [all menu icons loaded, dock, wallpaper, etc]

it certainly feels alot faster than 43 seconds, but it's beacuse various screens come and go quickly (black screen, chime, gray screen, gray screen w/apple, loading OSX aqua, blue screen, wallpaper/dock, then menu icons last)

*important note: 1.83Ghz w/80GB Drive and 1GB (2x512) Apple RAM*

Drakino · Mar 1, 2006, 04:37 PM

Doesn't the MacBook Pro use safe sleep like the previous generation Powerbooks? This should mean that even if power is lost, it is going to come up quicker then normal, and save where you were.

Any existing owner should be able to test the hot swappable function to see what happens even with one battery. Close the lid, and wait for it to go to sleep. Then pop the battery for 30 seconds or so and put it back. What happens?

mrplow · Mar 1, 2006, 05:02 PM

boot time again.. 36 seconds

removed battery for 15 seconds w/o AC adapter then popped back in, the machine DOES return to its EXACT position! The only difference noted- the white sleeping LED does not continue to glow once the battery is taken out, and you have to push Power to wake the machine-- but it does not reboot, it returns with a white tint and very quick (2 seconds tops) progress bar... why it performs this differently I'm not sure..

TheBum · Mar 1, 2006, 05:46 PM

why it performs this differently I'm not sure

Safe Sleep essentially saves the contents of memory to a file on disk when the machine goes to sleep. When you wake it up by pushing the power button, the file is dumped back to memory, leaving the memory in the exact state it was when the machine went to sleep.

PurpleRabbit73 · Mar 1, 2006, 06:04 PM

Has anyone seen......

THE BEACH BALL OF DOOM

on the macbook pro yet??

Enigmaaron · Mar 1, 2006, 06:05 PM

So I just tried this for kicks, put it to sleep and pulled the battery. It did the safe sleep thing and came right back to where I was... BUT, no keyboard and no bluetooth. Not a single keyboard command would do anything, and the bluetooth menu just said "not available". A reboot fixed everything, but I shouldn't have to do that.

Enigmaaron · Mar 1, 2006, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by PurpleRabbit73

Has anyone seen......

THE BEACH BALL OF DOOM

on the macbook pro yet??

Yeah, I did. When my external firewire backup drive crapped out on me as I was copying everything onto my new baby. Good thing I backed up onto my iPod too.

PurpleRabbit73 · Mar 1, 2006, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Enigmaaron

Yeah, I did. When my external firewire backup drive crapped out on me as I was copying everything onto my new baby. Good thing I backed up onto my iPod too.

But that's the backup drive's fault. Right? Right? AHHHH

m01ety · Mar 1, 2006, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by mrmister

Per Macintouch, it appears that the MBP, in addition to losing ports, battery life and screen angle flexibility while gaining a much larger power adapter and more heat, has also lost the ability to sleep swap batteries--an ability posessed by every high-end Apple portable since the Lombard, I believe, or even earlier.

Can someone confirm who has a MBP? If it's true, it's a great loss--I use this feature *all* the time...and with the battery life on the MBP, I'd be using it even more often.

You are a troll, and you are ignorant. The MBPs have Safe Sleep, like the latest PowerBooks. Hence, you can swap batteries and resume where you left off.

mrmister · Mar 1, 2006, 09:33 PM

"You are a troll, and you are ignorant."

Charmed to meet you, I'm sure. Ad hominem attacks are against the rules here, but keep on trucking if you're looking to get banned--be my guest.

"The MBPs have Safe Sleep, like the latest PowerBooks. Hence, you can swap batteries and resume where you left off."

Right--and in this very thread someones first experience with that feature failed. I don't ever recall having my powerbook fail to wake up from sleep when switching batteries.

The point is there was an elegant festure in place in every high-end Apple portable for about a decade--why did we lose it? There's no way to argue that Safe Sleep is "better"--it takes longer, and isn't as bulletproof as the 10+ year tested battery swapping system we used to have.

Look, you can get cranky if you like, but my concerns aren't fictions--I just don't understand how Apple let so many features drop away.

And while it's great to hear how long people's MBP boot in, it has little to do with this discussion. It sounds like sleep swappable batteries are a thing of the past--does anyone have evidence to the contrary?

Does anyone miss this? I use it all the time when working on my PB--what are people's opinions?

m01ety · Mar 2, 2006, 03:30 AM

Oh, I should have known you'd pull the victim card. I'm have some time to kill, so I'll bite.

You come barging in here so obviously already set against the MBP by listing off all sorts of negative and terrible (or what you perceive to be negative and terrible) changes in the machine...

Let's review.

Losing Ports:
Modem? Outdated technology, Apple identified that it was not justified to remain with only 10% of PowerBook users needing it. There's a tiny, comparatively cheap USB modem if you need one. Loss? Not really.

S-Video? It's in DVI. Get the converter cable. (And don't pull the "I can afford a $2000 machine but can't make myself pay $20 for a cable!" card, it's juvenile.) Loss? No. Inconvenient? Minimally.

FireWire 800? Not yet implemented by Intel's chipset. Unfortunate, yes, but not a loss given that FW800 never took off and was, again, used by a minimal subset of Apple's pro user base (they themselves say so). Need it re-added? Use the ExpressCard slot. Loss? Not really.

Battery Life
Again, you're pulling the "Sky is falling!" routine, and demonstrate your ignorance. (This is not an ad hominem attack. Not being informed, which you aren't, is ignorance. Look it up in a dictionary.) The battery life of the MBP is on par with that of the PowerBook. In fact, according to several tests, it outlasts the PowerBook by several minutes. And every single model I unplugged at the Apple Store reported 3 hours under normal settings. Any loss is indeed fictious, and in your mind. Calibrate the battery and take good care of it, and it'll last as long as the PowerBook's. And don't let the fact that the battery essentially powers two cores as opposed to one in the PowerBook bother you at all.

More Heat
Oh, really? I suppose this claim is based on your experiences with one? Or are you just giving in to the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt of skeptics? Oh, you read it online -- it must be right! Not really. Every single model I played with at the Apple Store was considerably cooler than my PowerBook G4. Indeed, only the back part of the bottom is now hot, unlike with my PowerBook, which is hot all over. And it's aluminum, darling -- it conducts heat -- if you want a machine cooler to the touch, get a 3" thick Dell with seven fans.

"Has also lost the ability to sleep swap batteries"
Which, as I've pointed out to you, it has not. Granted, it may not do it the way PowerBooks did, but it does it through Safe Sleep.

Screen Angle Flexibility
Do you need it to bend all the way back? This is a notebook, not a laptop. Have you seen and used a MacBook Pro? Have you determined that the loss of -- gasp! -- 10 angle degrees is going to dramatically and utterly impact your ability to use the machine, based on actual experiences with a physical model? And if it is a deal-killer for you, why are you in here complaining about imagined problems with battery swapping if the machine won't suit your needs anyways? You seem like you just have an incessant need to be negative and complain, my friend.

Larger Power Adapter
And this is why I called you a troll. Explain to me -- give me a rational reason how the power brick being larger affects your day-to-day use of the machine. Is a larger power brick going to make your machine slower? Is a larger power brick going to make your apps crash? Is a larger power brick going to give you a headache? Come on, man. This is shallow, vapid complaining for the sake of complaining.

The machine has two freaking cores. And a much brighter screen. It needs more juice. Hence, the adapter is larger. And given especially how you complain about heat, I am boggled that you don't realize that the reason the adapter is larger is partly so it can be cooler. A smaller 85 watt adapter would not only have been very hot, but also more expensive.

Originally Posted by mrmister

Originally Posted by m01ety

The MBPs have Safe Sleep, like the latest PowerBooks. Hence, you can swap batteries and resume where you left off.

Right--and in this very thread someones first experience with that feature failed.

You are amazing, you know that? I love how you completely pass over the fact that this very thread also features someone else whose first experience with this feature worked without a flaw (the user "mrplow"). And this report of success precedes your report of failure.

And come on now -- heaven forbid a brand-new machine on a brand-new architecture have any issues. I don't know what dream-world you live in, but most everyone who considers the MBP as a machine is fully aware that there might be some kinks to work out. That said, how you move from one user experiencing problems with Safe Sleep to it being a universal problem (which it clearly isn't) is beyond me.

Originally Posted by mrmister

I don't ever recall having my powerbook fail to wake up from sleep when switching batteries.

Neither do I. And I'm sure Apple continues this tradition of excellence with the MBP.

Originally Posted by mrmister

The point is there was an elegant festure in place in every high-end Apple portable for about a decade--why did we lose it?

As I keep pointing out to you, we did not.

You put the MBP to sleep. You take out the battery. You replace the battery. You press the power button, and within seconds, you resume where you left off. It gets tiresome having to repeatedly explain this to you.

Originally Posted by mrmister

There's no way to argue that Safe Sleep is "better"

Oh, I perfectly agree. I mean, how would the fact that you never lose any work with Safe Sleep if your batteries die on you be better? I vastly enjoy how my PowerBook just loses all my work and documents when the battery is dead. I also prefer how, if I take too long to switch my battery, I also lose all my work, which doesn't happen with Safe Sleep. Clearly you are right. Forgive me.

Originally Posted by mrmister

...it takes longer...

Do you do stand-up? You're a wonderful comedian. Oh no, it takes seconds longer to resume from a battery switch. Think of all the movies you could have edited in Final Cut Pro and all the TV shows you could have downloaded from iTunes during those precious lost seconds! How dare Apple.

Originally Posted by mrmister

...and isn't as bulletproof as the 10+ year tested battery swapping system we used to have.

Yes, because Apple had a magic Battery Swapping Chip that didn't change for over a decade in spite of a continuous wave of new chips and technologies. 10+ year system? Give me a break.

Originally Posted by mrmister

my concerns aren't fictions

Actually, for the most part, they are. At the least they're not very valid. All I'll really give you is the hinge -- if you happen to be seven feet tall.

Originally Posted by mrmister

I just don't understand how Apple let so many features drop away.

They didn't. Only thing "dropped" is the modem -- are you one of those nostalgic types who prefer we still had an Apple Desktop Bus port?

Originally Posted by mrmister

It sounds like sleep swappable batteries are a thing of the past--does anyone have evidence to the contrary?

Are you deaf? Or slow? This very thread has a report of someone having success swapping batteries without losing their work. Would you like me to link you to the post?

Originally Posted by mrmister

Does anyone miss this?

I would, if it were missing. Which it is not.

Troll · Mar 2, 2006, 03:43 AM

My TiBook doesn't have safe sleep so there's at least one Apple laptop since the Lombard that doesn't have it.

m01ety · Mar 2, 2006, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by Troll

My TiBook doesn't have safe sleep so there's at least one Apple laptop since the Lombard that doesn't have it.

Safe sleep refers to your current state being saved to the drive every time you go to sleep. Your TiBook may still be able to let ou swap our batteries quickly while the machine sleeps. Check your user manual.

(Safe Sleep was introduced with the last-generation PowerBooks, and can be added to older aluminum PowerBooks (and even some iBooks, reportedly) through a simple hack.)

Daniel Bayer · Mar 2, 2006, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by mrplow

boot time again.. 36 seconds

removed battery for 15 seconds w/o AC adapter then popped back in, the machine DOES return to its EXACT position! The only difference noted- the white sleeping LED does not continue to glow once the battery is taken out, and you have to push Power to wake the machine-- but it does not reboot, it returns with a white tint and very quick (2 seconds tops) progress bar... why it performs this differently I'm not sure..

Exactly what mine did, whew! I thought I was hosed for those long flights.

Daniel Bayer · Mar 2, 2006, 04:01 AM

Youv'e been reported.

This is harrasment.

Originally Posted by m01ety

Oh, I should have known you'd pull the victim card. I'm have some time to kill, so I'll bite.

You come barging in here so obviously already set against the MBP by listing off all sorts of negative and terrible (or what you perceive to be negative and terrible) changes in the machine...

Let's review.

Losing Ports:
Modem? Outdated technology, Apple identified that it was not justified to remain with only 10% of PowerBook users needing it. There's a tiny, comparatively cheap USB modem if you need one. Loss? Not really.

S-Video? It's in DVI. Get the converter cable. (And don't pull the "I can afford a $2000 machine but can't make myself pay $20 for a cable!" card, it's juvenile.) Loss? No. Inconvenient? Minimally.

FireWire 800? Not yet implemented by Intel's chipset. Unfortunate, yes, but not a loss given that FW800 never took off and was, again, used by a minimal subset of Apple's pro user base (they themselves say so). Need it re-added? Use the ExpressCard slot. Loss? Not really.

Battery Life
Again, you're pulling the "Sky is falling!" routine, and demonstrate your ignorance. (This is not an ad hominem attack. Not being informed, which you aren't, is ignorance. Look it up in a dictionary.) The battery life of the MBP is on par with that of the PowerBook. In fact, according to several tests, it outlasts the PowerBook by several minutes. And every single model I unplugged at the Apple Store reported 3 hours under normal settings. Any loss is indeed fictious, and in your mind. Calibrate the battery and take good care of it, and it'll last as long as the PowerBook's. And don't let the fact that the battery essentially powers two cores as opposed to one in the PowerBook bother you at all.

More Heat
Oh, really? I suppose this claim is based on your experiences with one? Or are you just giving in to the Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt of skeptics? Oh, you read it online -- it must be right! Not really. Every single model I played with at the Apple Store was considerably cooler than my PowerBook G4. Indeed, only the back part of the bottom is now hot, unlike with my PowerBook, which is hot all over. And it's aluminum, darling -- it conducts heat -- if you want a machine cooler to the touch, get a 3" thick Dell with seven fans.

"Has also lost the ability to sleep swap batteries"
Which, as I've pointed out to you, it has not. Granted, it may not do it the way PowerBooks did, but it does it through Safe Sleep.

Screen Angle Flexibility
Do you need it to bend all the way back? This is a notebook, not a laptop. Have you seen and used a MacBook Pro? Have you determined that the loss of -- gasp! -- 10 angle degrees is going to dramatically and utterly impact your ability to use the machine, based on actual experiences with a physical model? And if it is a deal-killer for you, why are you in here complaining about imagined problems with battery swapping if the machine won't suit your needs anyways? You seem like you just have an incessant need to be negative and complain, my friend.

Larger Power Adapter
And this is why I called you a troll. Explain to me -- give me a rational reason how the power brick being larger affects your day-to-day use of the machine. Is a larger power brick going to make your machine slower? Is a larger power brick going to make your apps crash? Is a larger power brick going to give you a headache? Come on, man. This is shallow, vapid complaining for the sake of complaining.

The machine has two freaking cores. And a much brighter screen. It needs more juice. Hence, the adapter is larger. And given especially how you complain about heat, I am boggled that you don't realize that the reason the adapter is larger is partly so it can be cooler. A smaller 85 watt adapter would not only have been very hot, but also more expensive.

You are amazing, you know that? I love how you completely pass over the fact that this very thread also features someone else whose first experience with this feature worked without a flaw (the user "mrplow"). And this report of success precedes your report of failure.

And come on now -- heaven forbid a brand-new machine on a brand-new architecture have any issues. I don't know what dream-world you live in, but most everyone who considers the MBP as a machine is fully aware that there might be some kinks to work out. That said, how you move from one user experiencing problems with Safe Sleep to it being a universal problem (which it clearly isn't) is beyond me.

Neither do I. And I'm sure Apple continues this tradition of excellence with the MBP.

As I keep pointing out to you, we did not.

You put the MBP to sleep. You take out the battery. You replace the battery. You press the power button, and within seconds, you resume where you left off. It gets tiresome having to repeatedly explain this to you.

Oh, I perfectly agree. I mean, how would the fact that you never lose any work with Safe Sleep if your batteries die on you be better? I vastly enjoy how my PowerBook just loses all my work and documents when the battery is dead. I also prefer how, if I take too long to switch my battery, I also lose all my work, which doesn't happen with Safe Sleep. Clearly you are right. Forgive me.

Do you do stand-up? You're a wonderful comedian. Oh no, it takes seconds longer to resume from a battery switch. Think of all the movies you could have edited in Final Cut Pro and all the TV shows you could have downloaded from iTunes during those precious lost seconds! How dare Apple.

Yes, because Apple had a magic Battery Swapping Chip that didn't change for over a decade in spite of a continuous wave of new chips and technologies. 10+ year system? Give me a break.

Actually, for the most part, they are. At the least they're not very valid. All I'll really give you is the hinge -- if you happen to be seven feet tall.

They didn't. Only thing "dropped" is the modem -- are you one of those nostalgic types who prefer we still had an Apple Desktop Bus port?

Are you deaf? Or slow? This very thread has a report of someone having success swapping batteries without losing their work. Would you like me to link you to the post?

I would, if it were missing. Which it is not.

John123 · Mar 2, 2006, 04:06 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Bayer

Youv'e been reported.

This is harrasment.

Eh -- not to COMPLETELY derail the topic, but the guy's post -- while a little snotty -- wasn't really report-worthy. It went a little overboard with the "deaf...slow" part at the end, but in general, it struck me more as an overly passionate defense. He didn't call mrmister an idiot, an ass, etc. etc....he just called him ignorant and accused him being a troll. I've seen posts that go much more over the line.

flabasha · Mar 2, 2006, 04:08 AM

I agree with mrmister, losing sleeping battery swapping (if true) is lame.

m01ety · Mar 2, 2006, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Bayer

Youv'e been reported.

This is harrasment.

Hardly. It's criticism of mostly unjustified complaining. Maker forbid I agree with all the FUD and sit back and nod in agreement. The "problem" the user experienced is non-existent -- even you report successful battery swapping. What would you have me do? Applaud said user's lacking reading skills?

"Harassment"? Your concept of the term doesn't agree with mine, I must say.

But by all means, follow your civic call -- I hope it gives you some sense of control.

flabasha · Mar 2, 2006, 04:14 AM

I'd also say that post was definitely report-worthy.

m01ety · Mar 2, 2006, 04:14 AM

Originally Posted by flabasha

I agree with mrmister, losing sleeping battery swapping (if true) is lame.

Fortunately for all involved, the feature still exists, and works.

Daniel Bayer · Mar 2, 2006, 04:29 AM

Originally Posted by m01ety

Fortunately for all involved, the feature still exists, and works.

While it does work, it is slow compared to the old method. I am thinking since I did a migration assistant swap of info, this machine migbht be runnning a tad weird in some areas.

For example, when I put the machine to sleep, it takes some 10-15 seconds for the HD to spin down.

When I have time, I am going to do a complete fresh install of the OS and software.

As for the comments about my reporting, drop it and mind your own business.

mduell · Mar 2, 2006, 04:32 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

I don't ever recall having my powerbook fail to wake up from sleep when switching batteries.

The point is there was an elegant festure in place in every high-end Apple portable for about a decade--why did we lose it? There's no way to argue that Safe Sleep is "better"--it takes longer, and isn't as bulletproof as the 10+ year tested battery swapping system we used to have.

Look, you can get cranky if you like, but my concerns aren't fictions--I just don't understand how Apple let so many features drop away.

And while it's great to hear how long people's MBP boot in, it has little to do with this discussion. It sounds like sleep swappable batteries are a thing of the past--does anyone have evidence to the contrary?

Wow, one anecdote and you're ready to go off the deep end with "omg the sky fell." Search any of the forums (including PowerBook) and you can find people who have had problems with their Macs not waking from sleep, even without switching batteries; OMG they must all be defective and the sleeping feature has been removed from all Macs!!

Originally Posted by m01ety

FireWire 800? Not yet implemented by Intel's chipset. Unfortunate, yes, but not a loss given that FW800 never took off and was, again, used by a minimal subset of Apple's pro user base (they themselves say so). Need it re-added? Use the ExpressCard slot. Loss? Not really.

Battery Life
Again, you're pulling the "Sky is falling!" routine, and demonstrate your ignorance. (This is not an ad hominem attack. Not being informed, which you aren't, is ignorance. Look it up in a dictionary.) The battery life of the MBP is on par with that of the PowerBook. In fact, according to several tests, it outlasts the PowerBook by several minutes. And every single model I unplugged at the Apple Store reported 3 hours under normal settings.

One nitpick, one reinforcement:

None of Intel's chipsets support any speed of Firewire; it always comes from an additional chip on the logic board. You can see the chipset diagram for 945PM (used in iMac/MBP) to confirm this.

Ars Technica's review of the MBP reports 3-3.5 hour battery life while using the machine under moderate load.

"During these tests, usage comprised of average everyday things for me: surfing the web heavily, chatting on IM and Ars IRC, some benchmarking, both heavy and light Photoshop work, a fair bit of development work in Dreamweaver and SubEthaEdit, sorting through my photos in iPhoto and testing out a few slideshows, sorting through my music in iTunes, and the writing and editing of this review."

Troll · Mar 2, 2006, 05:40 AM

Originally Posted by m01ety

Safe sleep refers to your current state being saved to the drive every time you go to sleep. Your TiBook may still be able to let ou swap our batteries quickly while the machine sleeps. Check your user manual.

(Safe Sleep was introduced with the last-generation PowerBooks, and can be added to older aluminum PowerBooks (and even some iBooks, reportedly) through a simple hack.)

Well if safe sleep just means what you said it means in the first line, then the MBPs can do that too.

If it means that you can take the battery out and put a new one in without losing your work, then none of the TiBooks ever supported this. It's certainly not in the manual and I just tried it and the machine dies. I checked the net and only the most recent AluBooks supported hot swapping batteries. You might have been able to hack some of the older AluBooks just as you may one day be able to hack the MBP but that does not make the original statement true.

It's simply wrong to say that every Apple laptop since the Lombard has supported hot swapping batteries.

bernt · Mar 2, 2006, 06:06 AM

On my 2.5 years old AluBook I can swap batteries, as long as it is done in less than 20-30 seconds. Guess there is a backup battery that saves the state of the comp while battery is changed.

JKT · Mar 2, 2006, 06:24 AM

Can I just point out that mrmister and many others have been bitching, moaning and spreading complete FUD about the MBPs pretty much ever since they were released (I'll include myself in that list as I initially whinged about the loss of ports without any drop in price just after release). m01ety may have gone off at the deep end a little bit but IMO, mrmister has probably brought it on himself.

analogika · Mar 2, 2006, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Troll

Well if safe sleep just means what you said it means in the first line, then the MBPs can do that too.

If it means that you can take the battery out and put a new one in without losing your work, then none of the TiBooks ever supported this. It's certainly not in the manual and I just tried it and the machine dies. I checked the net and only the most recent AluBooks supported hot swapping batteries. You might have been able to hack some of the older AluBooks just as you may one day be able to hack the MBP but that does not make the original statement true.

The first-generation tiBooks had a buffer battery that allowed you to swap batteries WITHOUT putting it to sleep at all.

analogika · Mar 2, 2006, 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Bayer

While it does work, it is slow compared to the old method. I am thinking since I did a migration assistant swap of info, this machine migbht be runnning a tad weird in some areas.

For example, when I put the machine to sleep, it takes some 10-15 seconds for the HD to spin down.

So has my 15" Alu Powerbook for the past few days. In my case, there was an open Bluetooth GPRS connection that needed to be closed down before the machine could sleep.

Otherwise, sleep is instantaneous.

analogika · Mar 2, 2006, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

The point is there was an elegant festure in place in every high-end Apple portable for about a decade--why did we lose it? There's no way to argue that Safe Sleep is "better"--it takes longer, and isn't as bulletproof as the 10+ year tested battery swapping system we used to have.

i'm quite certain the "10+ year tested battery swapping system" wasn't introduced until the tiBook five years ago, and it was never a feature of the 12" Powerbook.

BTW, Safe Sleep was a feature Apple *tried* to introduce back in 1999 - it was actually standard for a few months before Apple disabled it in a system update because it turned out that they couldn't make it work reliably under OS 9.

It is a very cool feature, and I wish my Powerbook had it.

darcybaston · Mar 2, 2006, 08:45 AM

My wife and I have never owned a Powerbook (just an iBook) and are greatful for m01ety's informed sharing. We learned so much! Our MBP is on the way and we're uber pumped.

amazing · Mar 2, 2006, 03:30 PM

"safe sleep" is definitely not the same thing as being able to hot-swap batteries during sleep. When you take the battery out while an MBP is sleeping, you've effectively shut it down precipitously. Much of the time, that'll be OK, but is there anybody willing to guarantee that there'll NEVER be any ill-effects? Everybody'll have to get used to shutting down to swap batteries, which is OK given the quick startup time.

I agree that m01ety has some good points, but I also agree that the tone was offensive. That level of anger does him no credit.

__________________________________

"you've heard of the Age of Knowledge or the Age of Enlightenment?"
"they don't exist anymore, they're dead history."

"Welcome to the Age of Anger!"

dndog · Mar 2, 2006, 05:53 PM

That post is by no means report worthy. I think m01ety's post is very well thought out and eloquated. It might have a slightly harsh tone, but I feel that because it is well-supported, there is no reason to make a stink about this.

PurpleRabbit73 · Mar 2, 2006, 06:22 PM

In this 'tutorial' it mentions that safe sleep is purely software NOT hardware (hallelujah

http://www.andrewescobar.com/archive...leep-your-mac/

hakstooy · 07:41 PM

mr01ety: You just went insane on mrmister for simply posting his disappointment with the fact there are several ways in which the MBP either loses features or didn't improve (a somewhat normal response). Any disruption caused by his "trolling" was freaking atomized by your belligerent, rambling tome of a response.

Calm the frick down.

On topic: I haven't tried a battery swap yet, I'm still setting things up or doing work on mine, so no real down time to test it. If it uses safe sleep, amazing is right that that is not a "battery swap" feature, its just safe sleep resulting from the loss of power, and that's a disappointment. But better than nothing I suppose. Amazing is also right in questioning how the reliability of this method compares to the old battery swap method. A very simple method has been replaced by a far more complex and involved one (I guess this is a real good reason to not fill your HDD to capacity). Seems there are numerous little changes and idiosyncracies involved in this switch to Intel.

aristotles · Mar 2, 2006, 08:49 PM

mr01ety may have gone a bit overboard but it most certainly did not deserve a report. I hate tattlers.

Having said that I think mrmister was going overboard on the hyperbole, conjecture and repeating of unsubstantiated FUD here on macnn. His rants were in no way constructive and it would have been useful for him to use the search function on these forums before posting.

mrmister · Mar 3, 2006, 01:18 AM

Eh. I don't need to "search the forums"--I read them every day. I just don't happen to agree lockstep with the conventional thinking of every Right Thinking Apple Fan, which occasionally gets me in trouble.

FOR THE RECORD, because Apple apologists won't ****ing sleep until they see this in blazing pixels--I'm psyched about the MacBook Pro. I'm very much in favor of the move to Intel, and I'm bullish on the adoption speed. I love the fact that Rosetta works as seamlessly as it does--which I think is even surprising Apple--and I'm really happy that the MBP has a great screen (it's really bright!) and a fast, fast processor. If someone mailed me one today, I'd start using it right away.

NEVERTHELESS, this doesn't erase the lost ports and lost flexibility, and knowing Apple from long experience I don't think they are coming back--I think Apple will use the opportunity of the architecture switch to try to retrain its notoriously picky users to accept less, as it makes it cheaper for them to make products...and I don't expect the prices to be coming down at all.

Despite some ravings from others, we did lose S-Video, FW800 and the modem. They are gone. You can talk all day about how you can use USB modems, express cards that aren't shipping yet, blah blah blah but they are, in fact, gone. And I suspect they aren't coming back, even FW800.

The power adapter is larger, by quite a bit. I bring my adapter wherever I bring my PowerBook--if we care so much about the PB being 1 inch thin, why would we not care when the adapter gets larger? People are acting like I shot the pope--I mean, am I wrong? It's quite a bit larger. I didn't say DON'T BUY THE MACBOOK PRO. I just wish the adapter wasn't larger.

I won't get into the screen angle here--I rehashed that elsewhere. But I did say that I couldn't tell if it would affect me in day to day use--I'll have to experiment.

"i'm quite certain the "10+ year tested battery swapping system" wasn't introduced until the tiBook five years ago, and it was never a feature of the 12" Powerbook."

My Pismo had it, and I believe it started earlier than that. You're right that the 12" PowerBooks, based on iBook designs, didn't have it.

"If it means that you can take the battery out and put a new one in without losing your work, then none of the TiBooks ever supported this. It's certainly not in the manual and I just tried it and the machine dies."

Did you sleep it first? It has worked on all my TiBooks over the years. Sleep the PB, take out the battery, put a new battery in within 30 seconds, wake it up, go.

""safe sleep" is definitely not the same thing as being able to hot-swap batteries during sleep. When you take the battery out while an MBP is sleeping, you've effectively shut it down precipitously. Much of the time, that'll be OK, but is there anybody willing to guarantee that there'll NEVER be any ill-effects?"

Exactly. That would be my issue with safe sleep in a nutshell--you have to have a lot of faith in a journalled filesystem, and not be doing anything to bizarre...and if I have to think about what I have running when I decide to switch batteries, the system isn't as good as the one we had before the MBP.

I will admit, I'm getting a little tired of being tarred with being a "FUD spreader"--I think it's a quick and easy way for people to dismiss very real changes in Apple's direction. I console myself knowing that people who post reflexively, and aren't willing or open to discussion, probably aren't listening in the first place. They've been drinking the kool aid, and that's that for them.

I understand that--I had a first-gen TiBook, and you couldn't convince me ANYTHING was wrong with it. Paint flakes? Complainers. One FW port? Wussies. Not as flexible? Hey...it's FASTER AND THINNER. Maybe I'm a little jaded, because I feel like I've been in on this kind of feeding frenzy from the other side.

As for mr01ety--you're beneath contempt. I wouldn't dream of reporting you, as I feel it would entirely give you too much credit, and you deserve none.

Luckily the forums have created a feature called the ignore list. Welcome to mine. My last suggestion to you is that you add me to yours, and that you never write to me again, as I assure you I won't be reading.

hyteckit · Mar 3, 2006, 02:25 AM

I think safe sleep is better than quick battery swap. Yeah, it might be longer to wake up, but your work is safe. Beside, how ofter do you swap batteries? At most it's every 3 hrs. :-D So suck up and wait an extra 20 secs for it to boot up.

Hey, i use to have a lombard and pismo, which had 2 battery compartments, so swapping batteries can be done while it's running. Damn Apple, why you got rid of the modules. I can't do live battery swapping.

John123 · Mar 3, 2006, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Bayer

As for the comments about my reporting, drop it and mind your own business.

Dude, when you tattle because you don't like someone's tone, and you THEN tell everyone about it...you make it everyone's business. Sorry, but you don't get to arbitrarily order everyone to "drop it."

m01ety · Mar 3, 2006, 03:07 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

As for mr01ety--you're beneath contempt. I wouldn't dream of reporting you, as I feel it would entirely give you too much credit, and you deserve none.

Luckily the forums have created a feature called the ignore list. Welcome to mine. My last suggestion to you is that you add me to yours, and that you never write to me again, as I assure you I won't be reading.

You do that. Won't make your complaints any more valid, however.

And yes, the people who replied having found my comments semi-informative (thanks!) if over-the-top (agreed) are obviously also agreeing that I deserve no credit, surely.

(And it's "m01ety".)

jeebus · Mar 3, 2006, 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Daniel Bayer

Youv'e been reported.

This is harrasment.

Please tell me you're joking. Otherwise that is just sad.

jeebus · Mar 3, 2006, 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by mrmister

Eh. I don't need to "search the forums"--I read them every day. I just don't happen to agree lockstep with the conventional thinking of every Right Thinking Apple Fan, which occasionally gets me in trouble.

FOR THE RECORD, because Apple apologists won't ****ing sleep until they see this in blazing pixels--I'm psyched about the MacBook Pro. I'm very much in favor of the move to Intel, and I'm bullish on the adoption speed. I love the fact that Rosetta works as seamlessly as it does--which I think is even surprising Apple--and I'm really happy that the MBP has a great screen (it's really bright!) and a fast, fast processor. If someone mailed me one today, I'd start using it right away.

NEVERTHELESS, this doesn't erase the lost ports and lost flexibility, and knowing Apple from long experience I don't think they are coming back--I think Apple will use the opportunity of the architecture switch to try to retrain its notoriously picky users to accept less, as it makes it cheaper for them to make products...and I don't expect the prices to be coming down at all.

Despite some ravings from others, we did lose S-Video, FW800 and the modem. They are gone. You can talk all day about how you can use USB modems, express cards that aren't shipping yet, blah blah blah but they are, in fact, gone. And I suspect they aren't coming back, even FW800.

The power adapter is larger, by quite a bit. I bring my adapter wherever I bring my PowerBook--if we care so much about the PB being 1 inch thin, why would we not care when the adapter gets larger? People are acting like I shot the pope--I mean, am I wrong? It's quite a bit larger. I didn't say DON'T BUY THE MACBOOK PRO. I just wish the adapter wasn't larger.

You don't even know what you're talking about. Have you not seen the pictures of MBPs taken apart? Where would you like Apple to put those extra ports you want? With the HD in one corner and the optical drive in the other, there simply is no room left for ports, unless you put them on the front (and we all know Apple is not going to be doing that any time soon).

The larger power adapter allows the MBP to charge faster. Maybe this is a bad tradeoff for you but most people would prefer it that way.

PurpleRabbit73 · Mar 3, 2006, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by jeebus

You don't even know what you're talking about. Have you not seen the pictures of MBPs taken apart? Where would you like Apple to put those extra ports you want? With the HD in one corner and the optical drive in the other, there simply is no room left for ports, unless you put them on the front (and we all know Apple is not going to be doing that any time soon).

The larger power adapter allows the MBP to charge faster. Maybe this is a bad tradeoff for you but most people would prefer it that way.

Is the ability to charge faster actually PROVEN??

analogika · Mar 3, 2006, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by amazing

"safe sleep" is definitely not the same thing as being able to hot-swap batteries during sleep. When you take the battery out while an MBP is sleeping, you've effectively shut it down precipitously. Much of the time, that'll be OK, but is there anybody willing to guarantee that there'll NEVER be any ill-effects? Everybody'll have to get used to shutting down to swap batteries, which is OK given the quick startup time.

What?

Do you understand what safe sleep is and why it's there?

You have NOT "effectively shut it down precipitously".
You have merely cut power to actively powered RAM that is *completely* backed up to a data file on the disk, whence it is retrieved should the RAM lose power due to the battery dying/being replaced.

Safe sleep exists solely to prevent loss of data when the battery is depleted during sleep mode.

Why on earth you think people will now need to shut it down is beyond me.

bernt · Mar 3, 2006, 09:57 AM

Well said, analogika!

It's kind of funny how an improved feature is turned into something bad by some...

hakstooy · 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by analogika

What?

You have merely cut power to actively powered RAM that is *completely* backed up to a data file on the disk, whence it is retrieved should the RAM lose power due to the battery dying/being replaced.

I don't know the details of the systems behind the battery swap and safe sleep, but its seems to me that the old "battery swap" was simpler, a cleaner concept that had less potential to go wrong. It involved simply swapping the source of juice to the RAM while the main battery was being replaced. Safe sleep, on the other hand, is a far more involved process which, to me, seems to never have been designed for this purpose. As a result, I am curious as to its reliability in this regard.

Yes, it seems that it will work for a battery swap, but it seems overly complicated and inelegant (very un-Apple way of doing things). I'd rather have both systems, as the last PowerBooks did, than just safe sleep. Regardless, if it works, reliably, then I'm cool with that.

mrmister is also simply correct in pointing out that apple does seem to have certain priorities in mind that are increasingly superceding usability, and I think the MBP is a "shining" example of this trend. Other than its speed (which is really only so dramatically noticable because of the pathetic hardware behind the PowerBooks it replaces) it is a step back in almost every way from the last PowerBooks. If this thing had everything else kept the same but was powered by a 1.8 G4 or something instead, people would be going berserk.

*edited because we never used the grammar book in elementary school, so I have to think about it, and since I write like a spastic monkey... )

mrmister · Mar 3, 2006, 12:07 PM

Thank you, hakstooy. Prepare to be beaten about the head and ears by others for stating a simple fact.

For example:

"You don't even know what you're talking about. Have you not seen the pictures of MBPs taken apart? Where would you like Apple to put those extra ports you want? With the HD in one corner and the optical drive in the other, there simply is no room left for ports, unless you put them on the front (and we all know Apple is not going to be doing that any time soon)."

This is a straw man arguement--it's not my responsibility to design Apple's hardware--they don't pay me, and I wouldn't have the knowledge or skill to do it. They hire teams of people, the best in the world I hope, to do that.

I'm the user of their equipment--it's my job to use the tool they make to create, and part of that responsibility, if I really care about that tool, is to comment/question when the tool loses flexibility. People's excessively emotional reactions, like some of the ones in this very thread, simply serve to reinforce that they know the MBP lost features getting out the door, but people don't want to have a frank discussion about them.