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The Official Tour de France Thread 2005™ (Page 4)
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villalobos
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Jul 23, 2005, 01:32 PM
 
DP.
     
villalobos
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Jul 23, 2005, 01:34 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Why wouldn't Lance be number 1?

Who else has won 6 TDFs? Ever? Now it's going to be 7...
Different eras (it's the same with every sports). Besides he rarely ran anything else than the Tour, sorta saving himself for the Tour. He's definitely in the top 5. Numéro 1? Doubtful.
     
Randman
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Jul 23, 2005, 07:06 PM
 
In the sports, he may not be No. 1 all-time but he's brought cycling to the front of the sports page and often 1A. Name any other cyclist who's done that?

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kilechki
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Jul 23, 2005, 07:50 PM
 
Originally Posted by Randman
In the sports, he may not be No. 1 all-time but he's brought cycling to the front of the sports page and often 1A. Name any other cyclist who's done that?
You mean, in the US, don't you?
Otherwise, you just seem to ignore most of cycling history.
Also, many here seem to ignore that probably none of TdF winners in the last 20 or 30 years managed to win without doping. Which is not a crime, afer all : in a way, many cyclists have used alcohol or "pot belge" (alcohol + medics) as early as in the early 20th century. The problem by now being that some have access to high end, costly drugs and others not.
I don't even speak of the Giro : nobody does even try to hide doping...

So congrats to Lance, glad to see him win his 7th in a row without never having tried to win something else than the Tour nor to gain support from his public... Hopefully this will be enough to build something of a legend.
     
budster101
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Jul 23, 2005, 07:54 PM
 
Uh... he doesn't dope you dope.

Yeah baby! Tour Day France. USA.
     
kilechki
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Jul 23, 2005, 08:04 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Uh... he doesn't dope you dope.
Oh, I see, you're Sheryl Crow.
Well, Sorry, Sheryl, you're dating "panic in needle park".

As you don't seem to be able to to change your opinion - and since my english is far too weak in order to convince you - I'll just let down.
One day, still, come in a hotel that has just been used by TdF runners. You'll certainly find it interesting.
     
Rev-O
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Jul 23, 2005, 11:15 PM
 
All this talk of doping and not one mention of Rasmussen, who absolutely rode like he was stoned. What, like four bike changes and two pancakes in one stage? That's why they call it dope.

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!
     
budster101
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Jul 23, 2005, 11:18 PM
 
My opinion doesn't matter, what about 7 years and 7 wins and being tested left and right by the French? Singled out continually... and passing every time. I don't need to convince you either, as it really doesn't matter that much to me. I just like gloating about Lance Armstrong being the best TDF rider in HISTORY.

I look up to winners, I don't look to knock them down. That's the sure sign of a loser.
     
Ω  (op)
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Jul 23, 2005, 11:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by Rev-O
All this talk of doping and not one mention of Rasmussen, who absolutely rode like he was stoned. What, like four bike changes and two pancakes in one stage? That's why they call it dope.

Most people expected him to have a bad time trial in comparison to the big guns at the top of the table, but not many people would have expected him to be THAT bad!

A little sad to see him drop so low in the standings as he has had a very solid tour and achieved more than what he was expecting when he started - though you get the feeling he will go away from the tour disappointed from this.

I guess tomorrow will be just for the sprinters as I can not see many changes at the top end of the table. The 'compact' of not attacking the leader on the last day still holds does it not?

Hopefully next year we will have a race! It would be nice to see the yellow jersey being spread around a bit during the three weeks.

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spectre
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Jul 24, 2005, 12:19 AM
 
Ullrich was pretty impressive today, as, of course, was Armstrong. I would love to be able to cycle as easily and fast as these guys... you could pretty much go anywhere.

Poor Rasmussen. That first fall really rattled him, and things just got worse from there. He should still be proud of his awesome performance in the mountains, but I think he just got tired/nervous towards the end of the race.

Things should be interesting next year. I'm thinking it'll be between Basso and Ullrich. I'm hoping for Vinokourov as well... such an exciting racer to watch with his continuous attacking.
     
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Jul 24, 2005, 12:46 AM
 
Originally Posted by kilechki
So congrats to Lance, glad to see him win his 7th in a row without never having tried to win something else than the Tour nor to gain support from his public... Hopefully this will be enough to build something of a legend.
right...
     
villalobos
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Jul 24, 2005, 01:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
I just like gloating about Lance Armstrong being the best TDF rider in HISTORY.
He is not. You don't know much about the tour de France so I am not going to blame you. He is one of the best, not The Best....
     
budster101
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Jul 24, 2005, 02:03 AM
 
Sure he is. He is the best Tour Day France rider in history. 7 x Champion. Who can top that?

The Best.
     
villalobos
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Jul 24, 2005, 02:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Sure he is. He is the best Tour Day France rider in history. 7 x Champion. Who can top that?

The Best.
Once again, you don;t know much about the Tour de France. You may want to keep it quiet, because you are looking like a fool right now.
     
Krusty
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Jul 24, 2005, 11:56 AM
 
Tour's over. Lance wins.

As far as the "who's the best" squabble above. I guess it depends on how you measure it. Lance get 7x total wins. Eddie Merckx was probably the most dominating rider in his 5 wins .. often riding solo far out in front of the nearest competitors. He could literally ride solo faster than other riders could ride in a pack. Here is an editorial from last year comparing Armstrong and Merckx.

Villalobos, in you opinion, who was the best ?
     
meelk
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Jul 24, 2005, 02:04 PM
 
doping. hahahahaha.
Lance is one of THE most tested athletes in sports.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...nce.drug.test/
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?020715fa_fact1
every story you pull on the topic will tell you the same thing over and over. Lance was tested all year long, every year, and still raped everyone in the Tour 7 years running. Get over it.
     
brutal
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Jul 24, 2005, 02:40 PM
 
Tour de France sucks ass. I'm glad it's finally over.

     
PacHead
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Jul 24, 2005, 03:19 PM
 
Lance is a doper, boohoo ! He is also not really that good of a cyclist. What does winning the Tour de France seven times mean anyway ? It's really not that impressive of a feat. If I possessed a few more functioning brain cells, I would realize that he's also one of the most tested cyclists ever, but my anti-American indoctrination is a far stronger force than any facts, and therefore I choose to stand by my stupid, uninformed and outrageous remarks. Lance is an American afterall, so it is my patriotic, socialist-commie duty to be against him.

---- That's for all of the sorry suckers out there.

     
broxy5
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Jul 24, 2005, 04:17 PM
 
Armstrong smarmstrong. Whooo caaares!
Oh yeah, he's one of the only cancer survivors out there (rushing to get wrist band).
     
kilechki
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Jul 24, 2005, 05:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by PacHead
Lance is a doper, boohoo ! He is also not really that good of a cyclist. What does winning the Tour de France seven times mean anyway ? It's really not that impressive of a feat. If I possessed a few more functioning brain cells, I would realize that he's also one of the most tested cyclists ever, but my anti-American indoctrination is a far stronger force than any facts, and therefore I choose to stand by my stupid, uninformed and outrageous remarks. Lance is an American afterall, so it is my patriotic, socialist-commie duty to be against him.

---- That's for all of the sorry suckers out there.

Thank you for this interesting piece of paranoia.

Oh, by the way, Milke Anderson - Lance's former personal assistant and friend - declared on july 13th that "Lance was fooling cycling and the public by using forbidden products". But this is part of the anti-american propaganda, isn't it? Or the fact that Lance's former US insurance company, SCA Promotions hired detectives to prove that Lance had been doping in 2004. Or the fact that Greg LeMond expressed his "doubts" on Lance's performance last year, also a very clear proof of some french plot against Armstrong? That and so many, many elements that spread doubts on Armstrong's performance - not because he comes from Texas, but because many things are just plain bizarre in his career, like many other cyclists.

Whatever, there are too many fox-like nationalist postures on this board to have a grown-up conversation on this matter which, after all, is rather unimportant.
     
villalobos
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Jul 24, 2005, 05:18 PM
 
Originally Posted by Krusty
Tour's over. Lance wins.

As far as the "who's the best" squabble above. I guess it depends on how you measure it. Lance get 7x total wins. Eddie Merckx was probably the most dominating rider in his 5 wins .. often riding solo far out in front of the nearest competitors. He could literally ride solo faster than other riders could ride in a pack. Here is an editorial from last year comparing Armstrong and Merckx.

Villalobos, in you opinion, who was the best ?

Like I said earlier I have a hard time picking one over the others. I always liked 'le blaireau' a lot but picking Armstrong over Merckx, Anquetil, Hinault or Indurain (to restrict the selection on the 5+ TdF winners) is an exercise in futility I think. They are all cycling Greats in their own manner.
     
sminch
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Jul 24, 2005, 06:39 PM
 
Lance is a doper, boohoo ! He is also not really that good of a cyclist. What does winning the Tour de France seven times mean anyway ? It's really not that impressive of a feat. If I possessed a few more functioning brain cells, I would realize that he's also one of the most tested cyclists ever, but my anti-American indoctrination is a far stronger force than any facts, and therefore I choose to stand by my stupid, uninformed and outrageous remarks. Lance is an American afterall, so it is my patriotic, socialist-commie duty to be against him.

---- That's for all of the sorry suckers out there.
dude, nice bit of trolling but you got a little carried away towards the end - like anyone could be so moronic that they'd actually think this!

awesome tour though, just pleased that it all went smoothly. i'll be damn interested to see who's in yellow next year...

sminch
     
budster101
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Jul 24, 2005, 08:24 PM
 
Lance should have another go again. He's the shizzle....The Best.

Those who would argue differently are the fools.

     
meelk
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Jul 24, 2005, 09:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by kilechki
Thank you for this interesting piece of paranoia.

Oh, by the way, Milke Anderson - Lance's former personal assistant and friend - declared on july 13th that "Lance was fooling cycling and the public by using forbidden products". But this is part of the anti-american propaganda, isn't it? Or the fact that Lance's former US insurance company, SCA Promotions hired detectives to prove that Lance had been doping in 2004. Or the fact that Greg LeMond expressed his "doubts" on Lance's performance last year, also a very clear proof of some french plot against Armstrong? That and so many, many elements that spread doubts on Armstrong's performance - not because he comes from Texas, but because many things are just plain bizarre in his career, like many other cyclists.

Whatever, there are too many fox-like nationalist postures on this board to have a grown-up conversation on this matter which, after all, is rather unimportant.
and through all this crap about what hes supposedly been taking, hes been tested, and tested, and tested. get over it, he wins by wanting to win. exceptional individuals are today tried and convicted in a society by the stupidity of the general public. the FACTS > your crap.
     
budster101
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Jul 24, 2005, 09:51 PM
 
"A bad day on a bike is better than a great day in chemo"

- Lance Armstrong

Bash him all you like, it's because he's a winner and he does it honestly.
Everyone loves a winner, then there is always a small group who will hate him. Those are the real losers.
     
typoon
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Jul 25, 2005, 09:20 AM
 
I loved Lance's podium speech. He will definitely be considered one of the greatest cyclists of all time and maybe considered the GREATEST TDF champion of all time. It's going to be a very very very long while befor someone breaks that record. If that can be done.

On the final Time Trial he showed why he is "The Boss" He DOMINATED the TT Ullrich put up a good fight this year and so did Basso. i feel sorry for Rasmussen 2 crashes and flat and bike change on one of the most important stages.

Was it me or did anyone think that once Lance took the Yellow Jersey in the Pyrennes that people just decided that they weren't going to fight too hard for it and try to get the other places?

To those who think he is doping. He's been tested so many times pretty much whenever they wanted that if he had been over these 7 years I'm pretty sure they would have found something. Stop being jealous/envious about someone who IS a GREAT champion and an inspiration to many.
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budster101
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Jul 25, 2005, 09:34 AM
 


Lance Armstrong - 7 time 'Tour Dey France' winner.
     
Randman
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Jul 25, 2005, 09:39 AM
 
My question is if he was doping, then why weren't other cyclists competitive? He wouldn't be the only one doping and I doubt he'd be the only one to find a super solution that no one else could emulate.

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Jul 25, 2005, 09:43 AM
 
"To the people who don't believe in cycling, the cynics and the skeptics I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles. But this is a hell of a race, you should believe in these athletes, and you should believe in these people. I'll be a fan of the Tour de France for as long as I live. And there are no secrets -- this is a hard sporting event and hard work wins it. Vive Le Tour, Forever"- Lance Armstrong.
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RobOnTheCape
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Jul 25, 2005, 11:40 AM
 
A great article on public radio a few weeks ago about Armstrong interviewed doctors who were studying a persons ability oxygen to energy or getting the oxygen into the bloodstream. They determined that Armstrong had the second best system ever tested. The first wasn't into sports. He has that freak genetic ability as do sprinters with god given twitch refexes allowing them to blast off the starting line.

Combine that with the drop of 10 lbs due to cancer, but retaining that conversion ability and that's why he does what he does.

Cyclists are tested and busted regularly. Armstrong is tested and retested, but never busted. Wonder why.

It seems the complaining about Armstrong comes primarily from countries who can't deal with someone from the U.S. winning, and moreover, someone winning from a country which could care less about cycling. Cycling is right up there with ping pong in the pantheon of sports subjects in the U.S.. Next year, even if again someone from the U.S. takes the TDF it won't garner the same enthusiasm here as it did with Armstrong. The 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 times in a row makes it worth listening to here.

Armstrong is a physiological anomally who has chosen the perfect sport for his body. But moreover, he's someone who has beat cancer, accomplished great things afterwards, more important than the 7th TDF victory, raised awareness of cancer research, and millions and millions of dollars for that research. Another reason why he's a champion.

Rant all you like, he's number one in the TDF, until someone wins 8.
     
typoon
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Jul 25, 2005, 11:47 AM
 
Originally Posted by RobOnTheCape
A great article on public radio a few weeks ago about Armstrong interviewed doctors who were studying a persons ability oxygen to energy or getting the oxygen into the bloodstream. They determined that Armstrong had the second best system ever tested. The first wasn't into sports. He has that freak genetic ability as do sprinters with god given twitch refexes allowing them to blast off the starting line.

Combine that with the drop of 10 lbs due to cancer, but retaining that conversion ability and that's why he does what he does.

Cyclists are tested and busted regularly. Armstrong is tested and retested, but never busted. Wonder why.

It seems the complaining about Armstrong comes primarily from countries who can't deal with someone from the U.S. winning, and moreover, someone winning from a country which could care less about cycling. Cycling is right up there with ping pong in the pantheon of sports subjects in the U.S.. Next year, even if again someone from the U.S. takes the TDF it won't garner the same enthusiasm here as it did with Armstrong. The 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 times in a row makes it worth listening to here.

Armstrong is a physiological anomally who has chosen the perfect sport for his body. But moreover, he's someone who has beat cancer, accomplished great things afterwards, more important than the 7th TDF victory, raised awareness of cancer research, and millions and millions of dollars for that research. Another reason why he's a champion.

Rant all you like, he's number one in the TDF, until someone wins 8.

Great Post.
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Jul 25, 2005, 02:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by villalobos
Once again, you don;t know much about the Tour de France. You may want to keep it quiet, because you are looking like a fool right now.
No, you're the fool. 5 /= 7, and no one has ever done that before (or likely will ever do it again). Best TDF rider in history, period. I know it hurts ya, but that's just too bad.
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Jul 25, 2005, 04:14 PM
 
He should go for 8 in a row.... nah. Nothing left to rove there, he owns France.

<insert pwned france picture here>
     
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Jul 25, 2005, 04:32 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
No, you're the fool. 5 /= 7, and no one has ever done that before (or likely will ever do it again). Best TDF rider in history, period. I know it hurts ya, but that's just too bad.

No he has won the most TDF's in history. However, there are many accomplishments, in and out of the TDF, by Merckx that were never even close to being matched by Armstrong. Aside from winning the Tour de France yellow jersey five times, Merckx also won the King of the Mountains three times and the green jersey three times. In one year, he took home all three. All of this occured while racing in other major events as well.

Armstrong is an amazing athelete and I don't want to take anything away from his amazing story and accomplishments. However, Eddie Merckx is the greatest cyclist to ever ride in the TDF, or any of the other major european tours.
     
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Jul 25, 2005, 04:44 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phanguye
No he has won the most TDF's in history. However, there are many accomplishments, in and out of the TDF, by Merckx that were never even close to being matched by Armstrong. Aside from winning the Tour de France yellow jersey five times, Merckx also won the King of the Mountains three times and the green jersey three times. In one year, he took home all three. All of this occured while racing in other major events as well.

Armstrong is an amazing athelete and I don't want to take anything away from his amazing story and accomplishments. However, Eddie Merckx is the greatest cyclist to ever ride in the TDF, or any of the other major european tours.
Sorry, can't agree. Overall, Armstrong is better, and that's what counts most in this race, the overall performance. Head to head, throughout the whole course, Armstrong would own him at least 3 out of 5 times in the TDF. Merckx is (was) great, but the proof is in the total result, and that is 7.
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budster101
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Jul 25, 2005, 04:58 PM
 
Whipped-ee-doo.... When someone wins 8 in a row, then he'll be the best TdFer.... until then, he's second best.
     
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:09 PM
 
The whole reason certain people are playing down the SEVEN wins, is because they know that chances are pretty damn slim, that anybody is ever going to be able to beat that.

Until somebody wins 8, Lance is the man.
     
Phanguye
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Sorry, can't agree. Overall, Armstrong is better, and that's what counts most in this race, the overall performance. Head to head, throughout the whole course, Armstrong would own him at least 3 out of 5 times in the TDF. Merckx is (was) great, but the proof is in the total result, and that is 7.
However, you are comparing final times with different technologies. I am pretty sure that Merckx didnt have OCLV carbon fiber frames, dimpled jerseys, or the high tech training tools that now exist.

But whatever, they are / were both great, and Lance did win more tours. However, Merckx's record shows that by wins in all races, he was the greatest.
     
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Phanguye
However, Merckx's record shows that by wins in all races, he was the greatest.
Not in the TDF he isn't, he's 2nd best.
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:31 PM
 
Originally Posted by MacNStein
Not in the TDF he isn't, he's 2nd best.
overall cyclist
     
budster101
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:34 PM
 
Good thing this isn't the "Who's the best overall cyclist thread", it's in fact, "The Tour Day France 2005" thread...

Again,

He's going to have to settle for the second best TdFer of all time.... Lance will be Number one for a good long time...

     
Ω  (op)
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Jul 25, 2005, 05:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
Good thing this isn't the "Who's the best overall cyclist thread", it's in fact, "The Tour Day France 2005" thread...
I think/hope we can agree he was the best of 2005

I also think he is the best TdF rider of MY era, without seeing some of the former greats in action and how technology has evolved it makes is hard to compare.
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Jul 25, 2005, 06:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
I think/hope we can agree he was the best of 2005

I also think he is the best TdF rider of MY era, without seeing some of the former greats in action and how technology has evolved it makes is hard to compare.

Agreed. He is the greatest of our era. He is also debatably the greatest TDF cyclist of all time. Overall cyclist I would still have to give it to Mercx. He dominated pretty much every race he entered as well as the TDF. Lance's main goal was the tour. It would be like if Joe Montana only played when his team was in the playoffs and the superbowl and he won 7 of them in a row but that was all he played it.
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villalobos
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Jul 25, 2005, 11:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by typoon
Agreed. He is the greatest of our era. He is also debatably the greatest TDF cyclist of all time. Overall cyclist I would still have to give it to Mercx. He dominated pretty much every race he entered as well as the TDF. Lance's main goal was the tour. It would be like if Joe Montana only played when his team was in the playoffs and the superbowl and he won 7 of them in a row but that was all he played it.
For those of you who are fans of Eddy. Here is a video of his interview right after he won his first TdF. It's in French obviously. Interesting tidbit, he won that the day Armstrong (Neil!!) and Apollo (11?) landed on the moon. The journalist told him there were going to be man on the moon later in the evening and asked him if he would rather be Armstrong (the one from Apollo!!!!) or himself Merckx winner of the TdF.

http://media0.ina.fr/Urlmedias/2bc0a...16011641d3.rpm
     
budster101
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Jul 25, 2005, 11:21 PM
 
What was his answer? No parle vous france
     
villalobos
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by budster101
What was his answer? No parle vous france
Well he did not really answer at first (i think he was kinda surprised with the question : he just won the TdF for the first time and somebody asks him whether he'd rather not be on the Moon...). Since he was hesitating, the journalist then asked him what he thought about having men on the moon : to that he answered that he was amazing etc.... Merckx was at that point in his career apparently not all that comfortable in front of a microphone, and that question about the moon landing was kinda weird, although I bet it was all people talked around that time... I know my dad still remember where he was when this was announced officially : must have been huge.
     
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Jul 26, 2005, 12:05 AM
 
Originally Posted by villalobos
he answered that he was amazing etc....
He was amazing, or was that meant to be It was amazing?
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villalobos
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Jul 26, 2005, 07:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
He was amazing, or was that meant to be It was amazing?
oops... it...
     
Anand
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Jul 26, 2005, 10:59 AM
 
Originally Posted by Don Pickett
Lance with probably vie with Hinault and Anquetil. He is closer to Hinault as a rider.

Agreed. Anquetil was a great rider who hated the sport. He lacked the passion to win. Lance is very much like Hinault. But in my mind, he is even more like Eddy Merckx. That same fire is in both riders. That fire has been tempered in Lance, but that is what has allowed him to win the Tour.

Lance leaves a great mark on the sport. A winner of a spring classic, the worlds, and the great tour. His legacy would only be better if he won one the other jewel: the Giro.
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