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Why is this forum here?
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l008com
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Mar 9, 2000, 07:37 PM
 
Why is this forum here? Netscape is way more popular on macs than IE, but there's no Netscape forum here, there's an IE one? Why is that?
     
wlonh
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Mar 9, 2000, 07:42 PM
 
the only thing i can think of to say is:

whoa, do you do standup?
     
Misha
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Mar 9, 2000, 10:14 PM
 

This forum is here because a lot of people use IE (I don't know which is more popular, but I know Netscape isn't "way more") and IE 5 is right around the corner. As such, there will be plenty of questions and issues to address with the new version.

Not to mention that IE 5 (and 4.5, to an extent) waxes Netscape's offerings. Unless you have the dated view that Microsoft is the enemy, there really are few benefits to running Netscape.

[This message has been edited by Misha (edited 03-09-2000).]
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 9, 2000, 10:53 PM
 
Actually, I saw a poll at one of the major Mac sites, although i can't remember which one, there are so many, and according to it, netscape communicator and navigator are used twice as much as internet explorer.
     
Misha
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Mar 9, 2000, 11:45 PM
 
How long ago was this? I'd be kind of surprised if that were the case still for the reasons I mentioned before. Quite simply, IE is overall the superior browser, without question.

If (when) Netscape 5 sees the light of day, you can expect to see topic forum for it as well. Not to mention when iCab becomes a finished product.
     
bood69
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Mar 10, 2000, 02:37 AM
 
I use Netscape for one reason: stability. IE 4.5 crashed about once every ten times I used it, Communicator 4.7 has only crashed one time altogether.
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 10, 2000, 02:47 AM
 
MOSR poll 1/6/2000
You have to scroll down a bit till you get to it, but as you can see, LOTS of people voted, so it IS an acurate slice of average mac users.

[This message has been edited by l008com (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:04 AM
 
"Quite simply, IE is overall the superior browser, without question."

Well gee... all this time I have been using some lame browser that cant do all the things IE 4.5 and 5 can do. Shucks. Goalie. What are you talking about? That statement of yours is pure opinion.

Yes, why does IE 5 have a forum here? Something fishy is going on Mr. Administrator. If IE has a forum here why doesnít NS 5 or 6 or iCab? How about OmniWeb 4.0? Huh? Seriously.. IE 5 is still in beta yet you state:
"If (when) Netscape 5 sees the light of day, you can expect to see topic forum for it as well. Not to mention when iCab becomes a finished product."

IE 5 is not a finished product.
There seems to be bias here and we all know it. I recommend renaming the forum something more broad such as 'Internet Browsers'? Seems fair to me. Most likely more people will be in here too.


------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.

[This message has been edited by Lazeruus (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:08 AM
 
Or you can change this to a netscape forum since as you can see from the poll, netscape is used more than 2:1 over ie, despite it's infieriority.
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:21 AM
 
Am I the only unbias person here? lol .. kidding.. I hope

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:24 AM
 
I'm not bias, it's just that Microsoft is the DEVIL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[This message has been edited by Misha (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:35 AM
 
*laugh my ass off*
I myself use NS, iCab and IE. Mostly NS but Iím starting to switch over to iCab. The beta I had of IE 5 looked pretty cool. iCab need to have a nice UI like that. The feel of IE 5 was the same as IE 4.5. Just felt .... weird. That and MS doesnít seem to want to let Apple's UI be what the menus and buttons look like. They are ugly and donít match the new IE 5 look. I hope thatís fixed in the GM. iCab is the fastest browser of the three that I have seen. NS can be slow as all hell and IE is a close 2nd to iCab in speed. iCab has MANY options however. Thatís what people want. Apple and many others donít seem to see that. There are no beginners in the computing world anymore. People are just not that stupid as to get confused by too many features. If someone does get confused by so many features then I for one wouldnít want them on my 'team'.
The big three all have their strengths and weaknesses. We all know that they are all behind the times and even before IE 5 and iCab and NS 5-6 are released they cold have been improved upon way way more.


------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:39 AM
 
I've tried iCab but it has NO java/javascript support, and nowadays every site has at least a little java.

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Adam Silver
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Mar 10, 2000, 04:52 AM
 
I use Netscape's browser because it is faster (with the exception of page-back and page-forward) and supports more tags than Microsoft's browser.

I will probably change my default browser when Internet Explorer 5 is available.

I will never use iCab or Opera because I would have to pay for them.

I expect to see a Netscape Communicator 6 forum around the time it comes out.
     
oscar
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Mar 10, 2000, 05:02 AM
 
l008com> iCab has supported java since the beginning, it uses the system java. In our case, thats Macintosh Runtime for Java (mrj) and the new version of icab supports limited javascript. Its only a prerelease, to showcase there offerings. Don't make misgiving about software until it ships, That goes for everyone misha =)

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-See Yea!

[This message has been edited by oscar (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
wlonh
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Mar 10, 2000, 08:32 AM
 
netscape: dead meat
ie: pretty good, best available for Mac
icab: very promising and will gladly buy it when the time comes and there will be a 'lite version' for free, too...

everyone is reading too much into the fact that there is a NEW forum for a NEW product coming soon and that product happens to be IE 5.0... period, end of story

[This message has been edited by wlonh (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
Misha
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Mar 10, 2000, 09:49 AM
 
No online poll is scientific (and therefore accurate), especially MOSR's polls because users are allowed to vote as many times as they like. And we all know that people vote multiple times (the next time they visit the site, right after they vote to skew the results, etc.), I know I have. Hence the reason iMac2Day's polls use cookies to help prevent the multiple votes.

[This message has been edited by Misha (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
Barney
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Mar 10, 2000, 03:10 PM
 
Isn't it enough that there is the continual fight about which is better, Mac or PC? Do we also have to go the route of which is better , IE or Netscape.? Why don't we stop this childish wrangling over "Mine is bigger or better than yours"? Why don't you just use what you personally like and stop proselytizing?
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 10, 2000, 07:26 PM
 
Cuz thats human nature.

Hopefully there wont be 3 diff forums simply for net browsers. There is simply not enough to say about them as individuals for them to deserve a forum all their own. MacNN forums look nice and small and efficiant. Noone wants clutter.

Also whats with the for a new product comeing soon thing? iCab is comeing soon. NS 6 is comeing soon. Or do you mean days, soon? If days soon then what does this forum really here for other than confusing some people into thinking IE 5 is already out and most to ask where can they get their hands on a beta version...ect... Oh by the way.... whats with the OE 5 forum??! I use OE 5 and when it works its great and I would say I am bias to it... however there are MANY other mail applications that were out before it that all together millions of people use. I use OE 5 yes... but gimmy a brake why is that forum named OE??? Why not eMail Applications? Its all about trying to serve more people. Just rename the damn thing!

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.

[This message has been edited by Lazeruus (edited 03-10-2000).]
     
Misha
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Mar 11, 2000, 11:33 PM
 
These Special Product Topic forums are specifically designed to track bug reports and user impressions of "hot" software titles. Previously MacNN was swamped with hundreds of emails from users with questions and comments about "hot" software.

To help users finds answers and share viewpoints, it's far more efficient to have a forum topic devoted to the software than tracking the comments on a seperate page. Sometimes the page-tracking works, such as with AppleWorks 6, but sometimes it's simply too overwhelming. We tend to be accurate in the products we pick for forum discussion (QT 4, OE 5, and I'm sure IE 5). You can expect topics for other major and widespread titles (Netscape 6, Office 2000/01, Photoshop 6, etc.) in the future, once shipment of the product is within a couple weeks away.
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 12, 2000, 12:11 AM
 
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.....

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-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
iMacMike
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Mar 12, 2000, 04:19 PM
 
I agree with Misha... IE5 is a totally new codebase and there are going to be tons of problems with it in it's first release. A dedicated message forum makes much more sense. When Netscape 6 is released, scheduled for late April, then there will be a forum topic for it as well.

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I work, I play, iMac!

[This message has been edited by iMacMike (edited 03-12-2000).]
--
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Lazeruus
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Mar 15, 2000, 12:26 AM
 
Again...... riiiiiiiight.... *sigh* Thats all we need isnt it? A new forum for every big new product that comes out. How about 'New Softeware' forum? It's oh, so simple. Oh man I see such bias here.... "Special Product" my booty. I never saw a InDesign forum... or do I see any forums for ICQ. let me tell you ICQ is more popular than anything else in any other forum. So.... (??????) Whats really up with this?

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
wlonh
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Mar 15, 2000, 12:45 AM
 
hey, isn't there a new X-Files episode on tonight?
     
Bill Francis
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Mar 15, 2000, 09:26 AM
 
The answer to the orinanal question is Does it Matter!
     
Misha
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Mar 15, 2000, 02:54 PM
 
I don't think that either an InDesign (because of its limited appeal) or ICQ (because of its simplicity) forum would get the 200+ topics that both the QT4 and OE5 forums have received.

In establishing a "Special Product Forum" we select products that have mass appeal, are highly anticipated, and which a represent a significant enough improvement from the prior versions that users are bound to have comments and questions regarding the product.

Time will tell whether we were correct in giving IE 5 its own forum, but seeing as we're nearly at 100 posts before the product has even been released, I'd wager to say that it will most likely prove itself to be a practical forum.

All other softwares have their forum... the "Third Party Software" forum.
     
Lazeruus
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Mar 15, 2000, 06:25 PM
 
Too bad half of those posts were 'why is this forum here', 'this is why this forum is here', 'IE 5 is out?' type of things.

DragonBall Z!!

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 15, 2000, 08:51 PM
 
I'm not saying selecting products isn't a good idea, i'm just saying microsoft internet explorer seems to be an 'odd' (i'll be nice after that whole incedent) choice to single out. So many programs are so much more popular. like Netscape and so on.


And I HATE microsoft and everything they do and everything they represent!!
     
trevc
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Mar 16, 2000, 05:57 PM
 
Well...
I would think that's about to change. If you are REALLy using the internet and want a browser that keeps up with the times like XML support... Netscape's preoccupation with merging and open source has delayed new versions .... how long has IE 5 on the PC been out?, no-wonder Netscape is skipping 5.x and going directly to 6.

When will v6 be out ...Summer? Is it going to have all the bangs and whistles that ie 5 has? ... it'd better, or there's people like myself (and I'm still a loyal Netscaper) that will have not much reason to stay with Netscape!.

/tc
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 17, 2000, 02:45 AM
 
Here's a story:
Once upon a tim i decided i would break down and install MS Internet Explorer. I downloaded it and much to my surprise, there was no instller, just a folder that said "drag me to hard drive" or something like that. So i did, and they i double clicked on the big blue E. "...Blah Blah Blah MS Library not installed Blah Blah Blah...". Certain librarys/extensions weren't in my system folder that Internet Explorer needed. So i have to reinstall?? But wait, there was no installer! It needs files that it doesn't even give you, now am i going to go search for them? NO, I'm going touse Netscape!

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Lazeruus
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Mar 17, 2000, 07:33 PM
 
Yes it's true... idiot things many developers do is stick all sorts of lame CRAP in the Extentions folder. Microsoft being the main one. Cant they freak'n intagrate this stuff inside their browser? Its just so damn annoying to have a .dll file on my MAC hard drive. Cant wait to see what MS does when OS X comes out with no extention folder. heh heh. Whats up now!
Oh and why isnt simpletext intagrated into the system? why... why oh god why....

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
Linda
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Mar 18, 2000, 02:30 PM
 
I008,

After dragging that IE folder to your hard disk, you need to locate and run "Microsoft Internet First Run"--which will put what you need in the appropriate places for IE to find it.

That said...I use Netscape, too. Or iCab.

peace,
Linda
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 18, 2000, 05:30 PM
 
If certian files need to be in certian places, then they should have included an installer instead of saying to jsut drag it onto your hard drive. They expect me to just go looking for the fiels it need and put them where they need to go!?!? Yeah that sounds like microsoft and no, i'm NOT going to use thier software!

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blizaine
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Mar 20, 2000, 04:01 PM
 
I downloaded IE4.5 and it gave me an installer, so I installed it. Since then it's never given me a problem, no crashes, nothing. I don't understand what people are doing to cause it to crash.

However, Netscape has never crashed on me either.

The main reasons I choose IE is:
1) When you print something in Netscape the right margin get's cut off and then gets printed last, unless you guess at what % you should print at. IE automatically fits left and right margins on a printed page.

2) Netscape has to reload a page when you hit the back button. IE doesn't, and is a lot quicker. If I wanted a previously viewed page to reload, I would hit the reload button.

3) IE has the side tabs with history, favorites, search, and page holder. Netscape doesn't. These are very handy once you get used to them, you won't want to go back.

4) I like using Outlook more than Netscape's email thing, because it is not directly tied into the browser. (You don't have to open IE to check your mail) which is very nice.

I'm not a big fan of Microsoft but as far as browsers go IE is superior.

     
wlonh
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Mar 20, 2000, 04:26 PM
 
hear, hear!! ditto all that, blizaine...

i despise MS and Billy G., but the fact is that IE is a better browser.

i WAS a HARDBOILED netscape user FOR YEARS until about a year ago... finally got fed up w/netscape and have never looked back!

and imnsho, netscape will be dead soon... irrelevant, superceded, and updates will STOP, some would say this is already the case, plans for the new netscape version (NOT mozilla, lol) notwithstanding. to me it is dead, or so moribund that you can't tell if it is still alive...

or to paraphrase the late and very great Frank Zappa: "it isn't dead, it just smells funny"
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 21, 2000, 01:38 AM
 
Netscape Communicator and Microsoft Internet Explorer is already too few choices for powerfull mainstream browsers, just IE is simply not acceptable.

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Lazeruus
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Mar 21, 2000, 03:26 AM
 
haha.... some IE forum this is....
In my most humble opinion they all suck in their own way. IE, Netscape, iCab. IE has more tech. in it. But how many people use that tech.? Not many. A small thing called 'plug-ins' levels pretty much everything each browser can do out. I wish someone would make a good browser. And please dont say IE is a good one cuz its not. None of them are what we are capible of making. At best IE sucks least. Tho I like netscape and iCab better.

------------------

-----------------------------------------
In Velocity + Mass + Trajectory
You will find the creator,Fate.
     
wlonh
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Mar 21, 2000, 07:38 AM
 
ahhhh hahahahahahahhaha

use Opera then lol

     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 21, 2000, 12:54 PM
 
You're forgetting something Laz, these browsers are free! If a company came around and made a really killer browser, you'd have topay for it. (Well, not HAVE to pay for it but...)

------------------
I hate Microsoft!
All hail Apple!
Steve Jobs knows best!
     
Linda
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Mar 21, 2000, 01:45 PM
 
Blizaine,

When I print from Netscape, nothing gets cut off, it fits perfectly. Always. Honest. So it's not Netscape itself, maybe it's some other setting in print preferences or something...because it *can* work, it *does* work for me.

When I hit the back button, Netscape does not contact the server to refresh. I have preferences set that way. Netscape only refreshes cached pages when I ask it to...

And if that were the case, that it MUST refresh each time, why not open links in new windows? Then you can close that window and voilŗ, no need to even click the Back button...

And I see on MacNN's home page that Communicator 6 will be out in 25 days! So I guess that means we'll have a Netscape forum here in a day or two, exciting new software to discuss, plenty of questions, need room to pick each others' brains, yes?

peace,
Linda
     
sclucas
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Mar 21, 2000, 01:54 PM
 
Maybe I'm just hopelessly romantic...but don't other people get excited whenever anything new comes out for the Mac?

I'm both a Mac convert of 5 years and a recent convert to IE from Netscape. I can't wait to see what they put out...and I love the bugs in software.

Without those bugs, the tight knit Mac community wouldn't need to be together. One of the most impressive thing about the Macintosh community is the "if it doesn't work, we're gonna fix it, damnit!" approach.

Has anyone seen the editorial in Red Herring this month? It's pretty damn awesome. Apple, with it's small market share has the power to really make things better. The fact that Microsoft recognizes that and is working hard to bring us good products (they know we won't settle for second best) is a tribute, and I'll happily use the fruits of their efforts.
     
stardog
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Mar 22, 2000, 02:50 PM
 
Strict "popularity" isn't the issue. Apple has made MS the default browser/email for the past couple years now. Which means, someone who has never used a computer or the internet before, and goes out and buys an iMac... they're not going to go rooting through the harddrive to find "Netscape" or "Internet Explorer". They're going to click "Connect to the Internet" sitting on their desktop and it's going to bring up IE, and that's the way it is. That's going to be their window to the internet. Maybe at some point they'll become familiar enough and adventurous enough to try Netscape or iCab or what have you, but most probably won't. Those are the people who perhaps stand to benefit most from this forum. Granted, I don't know how you know to find the MacNN Forums if you've never used the internet, but that's a topic for another time... ;-)

Regards,
Brian
     
l008com  (op)
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Mar 22, 2000, 09:11 PM
 
That's another thing, there should atleast be a choice when you first buy a Mac, instead of just having Internet Explorer. But that just goes to show you, even though you have to downoad Netscape seperatly, and IE comes all ready to go, more people still chose Netscape over IE.

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I see dead people.
     
Mac Guru
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Mar 24, 2000, 11:03 PM
 
Hey kid! It takes a real genius to screw up installing IE!! ROFLMAO! I have never hear something SOOOO funny! Teach me how to do that! hehehehehe

Mac Guru

(Sorry I just had to do that!)
     
sclucas
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Mar 25, 2000, 12:25 AM
 
There's a link now on Microsoft's site that says to watch for IE5 on Monday!!!

The link currently gives one of their customized 404's, but it looks like showtime!

Steve
     
sclucas
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Mar 25, 2000, 07:59 AM
 
I'm not sure that's correct...in each and every installation I've ever done of IE 4.5, there was a little program in the folder called "Microsoft Internet First Run" or "Self Repair" that installed all of the necessary libraries...without having to run any installer. In fact, if you were to get rid of the preferences file or change something around, that little program would launch again to right the wrong. I always thought it was a brilliant little setup.

I'm gonna have to agree with Mac Guru on this one...and Steve Jobs definitely does know best...he used IE 5 as his principle example of a carbonized app at Macworld...
     
Mac Guru
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Mar 26, 2000, 05:17 PM
 


Boy that's fun!
     
Alex00087
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Mar 27, 2000, 12:49 AM
 
I dont understand how can you screw up installing IE, you just drag it to the hard drive...what could be easier
     
Zeldman
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Mar 27, 2000, 01:06 AM
 
the forum is here because the browser comes out today. http://www.microsoft.com/mac/

     
Herr Newton
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Mar 27, 2000, 03:19 AM
 
Originally posted by l008com:
Why is this forum here? Netscape is way more popular on macs than IE, but there's no Netscape forum here, there's an IE one? Why is that?
Hmmm... after checking the logs for several sites I maintain, IE using Mac users out-number their NS-using counterparts by about 2:1.
     
 
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