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Milosevic is Dead! (Page 4)
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Doofy
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Mar 13, 2006, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by zwiebel_
Whoever groups Bosnian Muslims and Bosnia into the category of a radical islam staging point should get a reality check, or better yet, jump of a bridge (preferably a really high one), because those are the future Slobos and the likes that preach intolerance and religious superiority.
If you want to read about intolerance and religious superiority, go read the koran.

Originally Posted by zwiebel_
My heart goes out to the Bosnian, Croatian, and Serb mothers that lost their sons for Slobos ideology of "Greater Serbia", and the countless victims of this pointless episode of bloodshed in the Balkans.
So your heart doesn't go out to all the Serb and Roma mothers who lost their sons for the KLA's ideology of "Greater Albania"? You know that this concept is what was behind the whole Kosovo thing, right?
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Doofy
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Mar 13, 2006, 07:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
We're just going by history and current events. Muslims cannot embrace western culture. That is the issue, not their religion as such. Although it is their religion that makes it impossible for them to embrace western society.

Everywhere there are muslims living with other cultures there is trouble in one form or another. Even where there are just muslims. There may be wars, guerrillas, terrorists or despotic dictators. It just seems to follow muslims more than any other religion.

Hindus, Christians and Bhuddists live in peace. Jews are having their conflict with the muslims down in Israel, but other than that they are a peaceful people.
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aberdeenwriter
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Mar 13, 2006, 07:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
We're just going by history and current events. Muslims cannot embrace western culture. That is the issue, not their religion as such. Although it is their religion that makes it impossible for them to embrace western society.

Everywhere there are muslims living with other cultures there is trouble in one form or another. Even where there are just muslims. There may be wars, guerrillas, terrorists or despotic dictators. It just seems to follow muslims more than any other religion.

Hindus, Christians and Bhuddists live in peace. Jews are having their conflict with the muslims down in Israel, but other than that they are a peaceful people.

cheers

W-Y
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von Wrangell
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Mar 13, 2006, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
We're just going by history and current events. Muslims cannot embrace western culture. That is the issue, not their religion as such. Although it is their religion that makes it impossible for them to embrace western society.

Everywhere there are muslims living with other cultures there is trouble in one form or another. Even where there are just muslims. There may be wars, guerrillas, terrorists or despotic dictators. It just seems to follow muslims more than any other religion.

Hindus, Christians and Bhuddists live in peace. Jews are having their conflict with the muslims down in Israel, but other than that they are a peaceful people.

cheers

W-Y
þú veist vel að þetta er helvítis kjaftæði. En þetta kallar maður vini sína í dag......

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
yakkiebah
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Mar 13, 2006, 07:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by zwiebel_
Whoever groups Bosnian Muslims and Bosnia into the category of a radical islam staging point should get a reality check, or better yet, jump of a bridge (preferably a really high one), because those are the future Slobos and the likes that preach intolerance and ethnic/religious superiority.
Here's a reality check.


7th Bosnian Muslim Brigade, based in Zenica - the international Islamic mercenary force known as the mujahedeen

"... The first and foremost of such conclusions is surely the one on the incompatibility of Islam and non-Islamic systems. There can be no peace or coexistence between the "Islamic faith" and non- Islamic societies and political institutions. ... Islam clearly excludes the right and possibility of activity of any strange ideology on its own turf. Therefore, there is no question of any laicistic principles, and the state should be an expression and should support the moral concepts of the religion. ..." page 22 "The Islamic Declaration" book ("Islamska deklaracija"), written by Mr. Alija Izetbegovic, Bosnian Muslim leader.

In preparing the ground for the conflicts between Bosnian Cristians (Croats and Serbs) and Bosnian Muslims, residents of different Arab countries who in the B&H had recognized the elements and challenge of “a holy war” - jihad. Coming from different Arab countries, most of them were from Yemen, Algeria, Egypt, Tunisia and Afghanistan, and bringing with them experience from a war from some of the Islamic trouble spots.

Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base
"'There is no question that the policy of getting arms into Bosnia was of great assistance in allowing the Iranians to dig in and create good relations with the Bosnian government,' a senior CIA officer told Congress in a classified deposition. 'And it is a thing we will live to regret because when they blow up some Americans, as they no doubt will before this . . . thing is over, it will be in part because the Iranians were able to have the time and contacts to establish themselves well in Bosnia.'" ["Iran Gave Bosnia Leader $500,000, CIA Alleges: Classified Report Says Izetbegovic Has Been 'Co-Opted,' Contradicting U.S. Public Assertion of Rift," Los Angeles Times, 12/31/96. Ellipses in original. Alija Izetbegovic is the Muslim president of Bosnia.]

"'If you read President Izetbegovic's writings, as I have, there is no doubt that he is an Islamic fundamentalist,' said a senior Western diplomat with long experience in the region. 'He is a very nice fundamentalist, but he is still a fundamentalist. This has not changed. His goal is to establish a Muslim state in Bosnia, and the Serbs and Croats understand this better than the rest of us.'" ["Bosnian Leader Hails Islam at Election Rallies," New York Times, 9/2/96]
     
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Mar 13, 2006, 08:14 PM
 
Originally Posted by yakkiebah
Here's a reality check.
Although, I agree with Clinton's decision to prompt NATO's bombing to help to stop genocide.

But, in retrospect we see that the U.S. is STILL demonized in the Muslim world. And where have you seen or heard any Muslim 'leader' outside the Balkans (or even INSIDE) giving us credit for the good we did on the Muslim's behalf?

Not that it was done for 'credit' or anything like that. In fact, you never even see the posters here trying to gain anything from it other than as proof we aren't 'against' Muslims.

But, as far as getting any acknowledgment from the Muslim world, we aren't even given a nod for our selfless actions to protect human life!
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Doofy
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Mar 13, 2006, 08:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter
Although, I agree with Clinton's decision to prompt NATO's bombing to help to stop genocide.
Problem is, Slobby wasn't engaging in genocide in Kosovo. See earlier links. It's been suggested that NATO actually killed more innocent Serb civilians during the bombing than the Serbs killed innocent Kosovar Albanians during the whole course of events.
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aberdeenwriter
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Mar 13, 2006, 08:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
Problem is, Slobby wasn't engaging in genocide in Kosovo. See earlier links. It's been suggested that NATO actually killed more innocent Serb civilians during the bombing than the Serbs killed innocent Kosovar Albanians during the whole course of events.
Would this, then, be an example of two wrongs actually making a right???
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Mar 13, 2006, 09:48 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
þú veist vel að þetta er helvítis kjaftæði. En þetta kallar maður vini sína í dag......
Oooooo

Icelandicspeak!

cheers

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Kevin
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Mar 13, 2006, 10:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by von Wrangell
þú veist vel að þetta er helvítis kjaftæði. En þetta kallar maður vini sína í dag......
OOo secret code!

You do realize how rude that is don't you?
     
ShortcutToMoncton
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Mar 14, 2006, 12:06 AM
 
Okay, well. In spite of putting Kevin on my ignore feature, I've been desperately fighting the urge to see what he said after my posts.

Out of curiousity...did he in fact continue to argue with me and "rebut" my points, even though he know I wouldn't be able to see it? I have a personal bet with myself, saying he did.

greg
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aberdeenwriter
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Mar 14, 2006, 12:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Okay, well. In spite of putting Kevin on my ignore feature, I've been desperately fighting the urge to see what he said after my posts.

Out of curiousity...did he in fact continue to argue with me and "rebut" my points, even though he know I wouldn't be able to see it? I have a personal bet with myself, saying he did.

greg
I have a secret bet with myself that says that secret bets with oneself are like secret affairs with oneself in that they should be kept to oneself so that you know you will be true to thyself and you know what they say, don't you?

To thine own self always be sure to pay off on one's losing bets or thine own bookie might send thee around to whack thine own kneecaps!
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Ω  (op)
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Mar 14, 2006, 06:07 AM
 
Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton
Okay, well. In spite of putting Kevin on my ignore feature, I've been desperately fighting the urge to see what he said after my posts.

Out of curiousity...did he in fact continue to argue with me and "rebut" my points, even though he know I wouldn't be able to see it? I have a personal bet with myself, saying he did.

greg
Nothing of interest at usual. I wonder if he could still communicate if we took the words dishonest, fuzzy et al from his vocab.

You can sleep easy.
"angels bleed from the tainted touch of my caress"
     
aberdeenwriter
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Mar 14, 2006, 06:37 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
Nothing of interest at usual. I wonder if he could still communicate if we took the words dishonest, fuzzy et al from his vocab.

You can sleep easy.
You may wonder if he could still communicate if you took the words dishonest, fuzzy et al from his vocab.

He wonders, "who wrote the book of love?"
Consider these posts as my way of introducing you to yourself.

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Mar 14, 2006, 06:50 AM
 
Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter
But, as far as getting any acknowledgment from the Muslim world, we aren't even given a nod for our selfless actions to protect human life!
To one it's about human life, to the other it's about geographic territory.

One shares it's land, liberties and resources with everyone, the other, wants it all for themselves. take ur pick as to which is which in this argument.

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Ω  (op)
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Mar 14, 2006, 06:55 AM
 
Originally Posted by aberdeenwriter
You may wonder if he could still communicate if you took the words dishonest, fuzzy et al from his vocab.

He wonders, "who wrote the book of love?"
Does "he"?

Or are you 'his' mouthpiece now?

And the Marquis de Sade wrote the book of love. It is called the "Philosophy in the Bedroom".

"angels bleed from the tainted touch of my caress"
     
aberdeenwriter
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Mar 14, 2006, 07:00 AM
 
Originally Posted by Ω
Does "he"?

Or are you 'his' mouthpiece now?

And the Marquis de Sade wrote the book of love. It is called the "Philosophy in the Bedroom".

Not surprised you'd know this. Ewwwwww!
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Weyland-Yutani
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Mar 14, 2006, 04:06 PM
 
This man was fighting in Bosnia and devised Bojinka. He was of course one of the islamic terrorists fighting the USSR in Afghanistan with CIA backing. Bojinka led to what Americans now know as 9/11.

Slobo wasn't fighting no innocentis.

W-Y

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Caetano
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Mar 14, 2006, 04:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by Doofy
So your heart doesn't go out to all the Serb and Roma mothers who lost their sons for the KLA's ideology of "Greater Albania"? You know that this concept is what was behind the whole Kosovo thing, right?
Enough of your bullsh!t man. Are you taking your information from the local branch of the Yugoslav embassy in your village square? The KLA, and before it, the LDK (Democratic League of Kosovo) were a direct answer (some call it self-defence) to the illegal abolition of Kosovo's autonomy in 1989, and then later on, to Serb attacks on Kosovo villages in 1997.

KLA was born as a local movement first, bringing together families who wanted to defend themselves from further attacks on them (the first attack, on 22 January, 1997 on the Jashari family was unsuccesful, the second attack, on 5 April, 1997, left the entire Jashari family dead, around 54 people, including at least 5 women and children). At that point, people on the village of Prekaz, but also surrounding villages started mobilizing to defend their families and that is how the KLA started.

It grew on power because on every ocassion, Serb forces blew entire villages, burning and pillaging whatever they could find. KLA was financed through private donations, mostly in Western countries, through a fund they set-up called 'Homeland Calling'. That money was collected by people who represented KLA in those countries, they went from door to door to Albanian houses to collect money. Around 500,000 Albanian Kosovars live in Western countries so there was an ample amount they could donate.

KLA's "ideology" was to get the Serbian army out of Kosovo, but alone they couldn't succeed. That's why they agreed to the meeting at Rambouillet, France with Yugoslav authorities at which point they agreed to autonomy within Yugoslavia. They signed, the Yugoslav/Serb side refused to sign. Then it was clear who wanted peace and equality, and who wanted more war and a Greater Something. At that point, NATO saw that the only way to save the region of his tyrrany (Slobodan Milosevic) was to bomb the sh_it out of him, which they did.

Shortly after, the KLA was voluntarily de-mobilized and turned into a humanitarian organization with the duty of preventing and helping in cases of catastrophes and other natural causes of destruction. They took the name of KPC, and exist today within UNMIK, The United Nations Administration Mission in Kosovo. It's hardly befitting for an army fighting for Greater Albania to voluntarily disarm and turn into a humanitarion organization.

But you just show your knowledge (or lack thereof) you picked up in some 5 minutes of googling in some pro-milosevic website you found, and mix that with your Christian Superiority agenda, and there you have an unsubstantiated, totally baseless claim of KLA and Greater Albania. Get to know the facts first, Pancho. It will help you lead an intelligent discussion.
     
Caetano
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Mar 14, 2006, 04:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Weyland-Yutani
Slobo wasn't fighting no innocentis.

W-Y
What do you call the 8,000 males killed in Srebrenica?

The Srebrenica massacre was the July 1995 killing of an estimated 8,100 Bosnian males, ranging in age from teenagers to the elderly, in the region of Srebrenica in Bosnia and Herzegovina by a Serb Army of Republika Srpska under general Ratko Mladić including Serbian state special forces "Scorpions". The same special forces commited war crimes in Kosovo in 1999. The Srebrenica massacre is considered one of the largest mass murders in Europe since World War II and one of the most horrific events in recent European history. Mladić and other Serb army officers have since been indicted for various war crimes, including genocide, at the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY). The ICTY's final ruling was that the massacre was indeed an act of genocide.[1]


I'm disgusted.
     
yakkiebah
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Mar 14, 2006, 05:38 PM
 
Caetano, that's a nice story you got there about the KLA. Getting the Serbian army out? LOL, you mean serbian civilians!

Kosovo Liberation Army, wikipedia...
In addition, KLA's legacy as a group of people who are willing to commit nefarious crimes is confirmed by the expulsion of more than 250,000.00 non-albanian minorities from Kosovo post 1999. 6] KLA's intent to ethnically cleanse Kosovo from minorities is evident in the political program espoused by KLA politicians [6] Reports further indicate that the local, KLA dominated governments "[They] say it is better if there are no Serb houses, than having empty Serb houses to which they can come back one day."
A former leader, Ramush Haradinaj, is currently awaiting trial for war crimes.

I'm disgusted.
     
Doofy
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Mar 14, 2006, 07:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Caetano
What do you call the 8,000 males killed in Srebrenica?
Militia.
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Doofy
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Mar 14, 2006, 07:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by Caetano
Enough of your bullsh!t man. Are you taking your information from the local branch of the Yugoslav embassy in your village square?
Actually, I'm taking it from all sources. Been on this case since the 1990 ish.

Originally Posted by Caetano
KLA was born as a local movement first
Yes, a movement local to Albania.

Originally Posted by Caetano
It grew on power because on every ocassion, Serb forces blew entire villages, burning and pillaging whatever they could find.
Pure lies.

Originally Posted by Caetano
KLA was financed through private donations
And sourcing/running most of the heroin available to Western Europe.

Originally Posted by Caetano
KLA's "ideology" was to get the Serbian army out of Kosovo, but alone they couldn't succeed. That's why they agreed to the meeting at Rambouillet, France with Yugoslav authorities at which point they agreed to autonomy within Yugoslavia. They signed, the Yugoslav/Serb side refused to sign.
Kind of reminds me of Chechnya. I wonder what those places have in common?

Originally Posted by Caetano
Shortly after, the KLA was voluntarily de-mobilized and turned into a humanitarian organization


You're off your trolly mate.
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von Wrangell
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Mar 14, 2006, 07:26 PM
 

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid
     
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Mar 15, 2006, 07:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
Justice delayed is justice denied.
     
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Mar 15, 2006, 08:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll


Glad to see you living up to your moniker (as well as your anti-American fixations).
     
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Mar 16, 2006, 03:52 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey


Glad to see you living up to your moniker (as well as your anti-American fixations).
Nice comeback.

Once again, we get a sense of your screwed sense of justice! Your sense of justice is not offended by people sitting in a jail in Guantanamo for years without access to counsel, without charge, being denied their rights under international and national law and being subjected to cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, yet your sense of justice is offended by a guy who is given access to counsel, is charged and tried and generally treated consistently with every principle of justice known to man, and then dies of natural causes during his trial.

Zacarias Moussaoui was picked up only a few months after Milosevic and faces charges that are far simpler to deal with than those Milosevic faced. Moussaoui is still before the courts. Trying people for war crimes takes time. No one can guarantee that the accused will survive the trial.
( Last edited by Troll; Mar 16, 2006 at 03:59 AM. )
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 16, 2006, 07:27 AM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
Nice comeback.

Once again, we get a sense of your screwed sense of justice! Your sense of justice is not offended by people sitting in a jail in Guantanamo for years without access to counsel, without charge, being denied their rights under international and national law and being subjected to cruel, inhuman and degrading punishment, yet your sense of justice is offended by a guy who is given access to counsel, is charged and tried and generally treated consistently with every principle of justice known to man, and then dies of natural causes during his trial.

Zacarias Moussaoui was picked up only a few months after Milosevic and faces charges that are far simpler to deal with than those Milosevic faced. Moussaoui is still before the courts. Trying people for war crimes takes time. No one can guarantee that the accused will survive the trial.
This thread is not about America. It is about Milosovic. The fact that you are so obsessed that you cannot talk about any other subject than America is very telling.

Unlike Milosovic in the Hague, Moussaoui was convicted in April 2005. CNN He does not "face charges," he faced them. He is appealing, but you know that an appeal is totally different from a prosecution. That is probably why you attempted pathetically to blur the line with the weasel words "still before the courts." Moussaoui has been adjudged guilty, Milosovic's case dragged on so embarrassingly that he died in jail a legally still innocent man. Also, Milosovic was handed over in July, 2001, and indicted in May, 2001. While that is less than a year before Moussaoui, the ICTY was working on the case years before the indictment was brought (unlike Moussaoui, who was unknown before his arrest). Despite millions spent, and years wasted, the court in the Hague still failed to do its job in a timely and dignified manner.

By the way, Moussaoui was convicted in the Eastern District of Virginia. Civil lawyers in that district call it the "rocket docket" because its civil docket is as efficient as its criminal docket. Above the door are the words "Justice delayed is justice denied." The Hague could learn from that. But then again, international law enthusiasts aren't good at learning things. That's why international human rights law is so preeningly irrelevant.
( Last edited by SimeyTheLimey; Mar 16, 2006 at 08:47 PM. )
     
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Mar 16, 2006, 08:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
This thread is not about America. It is about Milosovic. The fact that you are so obsessed that you cannot talk about any other subject than America is very telling.
You're the one that's obsessed. Every opportunity you get to diss any kind of international legal mechanism you grab with both hands. It would have been much more efficient for you to have said "international law is irrelevant" than to try to make some point about justice. It's clear to anyone who's read your posts over an extended period of time that you're not interested in justice at all.

I'm not criticising America; I'm criticising YOU and your lack of principles. You'll argue whatever you can to justify the Bush Administration's viewpoint and to score points against things like international law that threaten your emperor's power. If you really thought that justice was offended by Milosevic's death, then on principle, you should have a problem with justice being delayed the way it is in Guantanamo. Notice how you completely avoid responding to this point - the glaring inconsistency between what you perceive as a failure of justice in the case of Milosevic but no such failure of justice in the case of Guantanamo detainees.

As for Moussaoui, you admit that it took 4 years to get a judgement against him and that the case has still not been finalised. That was my point. If Moussaoui died tomorrow whilst proceedings are still ongoing, I think you can bet your bottom Dollar that there would be people just like you saying that justice was denied.

Having seen some of the issues the ICTY had to deal with in the Milosevic case, and in comparison to other trials, I disagree with you that 4 years of court proceedings amounts to the court failing to do its job. And I think most litigation lawyers would not think 4 years to be extraordinarily long to decide two genocide charges. I know far simpler trials that have gone on for far longer and so do you.

Also, the sole measure of whether justice is done is not "Did Milosevic get found guilty." Part of the court's job is to get to the truth and to facilitate reconciliation which victims of the genocide say they think the ICTY has succeeded in doing. Finally, perhaps you should note that 133 people have appeared before the ICTY in the last 10 years. 43 people have been found guilty and proceedings have been concluded against 68 people. Considering the resources they have available and the facts and evidence they're dealing with, I personally think it's a remarkable achievement. The tribunal had no control over when Milosevic might die and couldn't compromise justice just to get a guilty verdict. THAT would have been a failure of justice.
( Last edited by Troll; Mar 16, 2006 at 08:57 AM. )
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 16, 2006, 08:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
You're the one that's obsessed. Every opportunity you get to diss any kind of international legal mechanism you grab with both hands. It would have been much more efficient for you to have said "international law is irrelevant" than to try to make some point about justice. It's clear to anyone who's read your posts over an extended period of time that you're not interested in justice at all.

I'm not criticising America; I'm criticising YOU and your lack of principles. You'll argue whatever you can to justify the Bush Administration's viewpoint and to score points against things like international law that threaten your emperor's power. If you really thought that justice was offended by Milosevic's death, then on principle, you should have a problem with justice being delayed the way it is in Guantanamo. Notice how you completely avoid responding to this point - the glaring inconsistency between what you perceive as a failure of justice in the case of Milosevic but no such failure of justice in the case of Guantanamo detainees.

As for Moussaoui, you admit that it took 4 years to get a judgement against him and that the case has still not been finalised. That was my point. If Moussaoui died tomorrow whilst proceedings are still ongoing, I think you can bet your bottom Dollar that there would be people just like you saying that justice was denied.

Having seen some of the issues the ICTY had to deal with in the Milosevic case, and in comparison to other trials, I disagree with you that 4 years of court proceedings amounts to the court failing to do its job. And I think most litigation lawyers would not think 4 years to be extraordinarily long to decide two genocide charges. I know far simpler trials that have gone on for far longer and so do you.

Also, the sole measure of whether justice is done is not "Did Milosevic get found guilty." Part of the court's job is to get to the truth and to facilitate reconciliation which victims of the genocide say they think the ICTY has succeeded in doing. Finally, perhaps you should note that 133 people have appeared before the ICTY in the last 10 years. 43 people have been found guilty and proceedings have been concluded against 68 people. Considering the resources they have available and the facts and evidence they're dealing with, I personally think it's a remarkable achievement. The tribunal had no control over when Milosevic might die and couldn't compromise justice just to get a guilty verdict. THAT would have been a failure of justice.
Facilitate reconciliation -- what a laugh. I guess it facilitates reconciliation when Serbs can bury their former president as an "innocent" man. The court was a shambles, and all it did was allow Slobo a stage.

As for 68 trials over ten years. Are you really suggesting that is an impressive record for a trial court with no other docket? The reason complicated cases -- especially civil ones -- go on for a long time is because courts are busy. This one isn't busy, it's just incompetent.

Oh, and as for:

I'm not criticising America; I'm criticising YOU and your lack of principles. You'll argue whatever you can to justify the Bush Administration's viewpoint and to score points against things like international law that threaten your emperor's power.
All I have to say, is grow up.
     
Troll
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Mar 17, 2006, 04:06 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
The reason complicated cases -- especially civil ones -- go on for a long time is because courts are busy. This one isn't busy, it's just incompetent.
No doubt Kevin will now jump on you to point out that you're passing off your opinion that the court is incompetent as fact.

This court IS busy. What part of 133 indictments don't you understand? 68 is the number of cases that have been CONCLUDED since its start. These are war crimes - things like genocide etc. and the people that have been condemned haven't all been in custody since the start of the tribunal.

A guy with a known medical condition passed away while awaiting trial - that's it. That bears no reflection on the court's competence. Milosevic has been in court for 4 years. The proceedings have been put on hold numerous times because of his poor health. The amount of time they waited for his health to recover amounts to over 9 months. So technically, the trial has run for about tree years. There was 40 hours of proceedings left in this trial! 40 hours. The trial was almost over.

I don't think 4 years is an extraordinarily long period of time in the circumstances and you've admitted that other, simpler trials go on for longer periods of time. Certainly, I don' think it would have been better to deny Milosevic his rights by denying him medical treatmnt or glossing over evidence just to satisfy people like you. The court's aims go beyond what your small-mindeness accepts and to get the buy-in from the Milosevic supporters, he needed to be treated properly.

But maybe you'd like to show us the competence of the US courts in swiftly delivering justice to those the Government accuses of war crimes in Afghanistan? Just so we have a reference for how a competent system operates. You're transparent Simey. The only reason you're arguing justice here is because it facilitates criticism of an international legal body. You don't actually give a damn about justice otherwise you'd be jumping up and down about Gitmo.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 17, 2006, 07:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
But maybe you'd like to show us the competence of the US courts in swiftly delivering justice to those the Government accuses of war crimes in Afghanistan? Just so we have a reference for how a competent system operates. You're transparent Simey. The only reason you're arguing justice here is because it facilitates criticism of an international legal body. You don't actually give a damn about justice otherwise you'd be jumping up and down about Gitmo.
Troll:

You really can't handle differences of opinion with any maturity, can you? We have a difference of opinion. In war, prisoners are taken. They do not get trials. Maybe you think that they should, but they do not.

You and I have a difference of opinion about whether or not the War on Terror is a war, and about whether or not terrorists captiured are combatants in that war. A mature person can acknowledge the other person's different opinion, and will not take it as a reason for a personal vendetta or casting personal aspersions. You apparently cannot do so. So you bring it up to attack me, and in a thread where it has no relevance whatsoever.

The subject of Gitmo has nothing to do with Milosovic's death or his trial. My legal opinion about unlawful combatants has nothing to do with Milsovic's death or his trial. Nor is the United States in general the subject of this thread. Nor are US courts specifically the subject of this thread.

At best, all you are doing here is personally attacking me. You have admitted as such. You are being a boor. You are also deeply in violation of forum rules.
     
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Mar 17, 2006, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
In war, prisoners are taken. They do not get trials.
That is crap and you know it. Prisoners of war don't get trials, everyone else captured during a war gets a trial. You don't argue that the Gitmo prisoners are prisoners of war, or even that they fall into the catch all category that the law refers to as civilians. You argue that the Gitmo prisoners are war criminals which is a third category of person involved in a war. Your argument is that these "unlawful combatants" fall into a black hole where no law applies to them and where they have no right to justice - ever. There we have a difference of opinion. That's a difference of opinion on the LAW. You raised justice in this thread.

I take it you know the difference between law and justice. Laws can be unjust and citing an interpretation of the laws of war as you have does not automatically mean that justice is being done. Particularly where the argument you make results in a permanent and arbitrary denial of justice. All you've done is bring an interpretation of the laws of war that offends justice.

But what's really shocking is your inability to see the contradiction in the points you make. Milosevic was an "unlwaful combatant". He didn't play by the rules of war. Now if we follow your argument, your sense of justice would not have been offended had the Serbs simply put Milosevic in a cell and thrown away the key. If he'd died last week without charges ever having been brought against him and having never set foot in a courtroom, the only logical conclusion from what you've argued in this forum is that you would have seen that as a more just solution than what actually happened. Charging the guy, trying him and having him die of natural causes before the end of the trial for you is offensive to justice but not arbitrarily locking him up and throwing away the key. I just find that bizarre.
Originally Posted by SimeyTheLimey
At best, all you are doing here is personally attacking me. You have admitted as such. You are being a boor. You are also deeply in violation of forum rules.
I don't see it that way. What I see happening in this thread is your accusing me of xenophobia and my being relatively polite considering your attack on me. I was forced to defend myself against your anti-American epithet by showing you that I was criticising you personally for your inconsistent application of principles of justice and that I was not criticising your country. You forced me to personalise the argument to defend myself against your attack.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Mar 17, 2006, 10:09 AM
 
Simey always resorts to personal attacks when he's losing an argument or is in over his head. Like now.

cheers

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Spliffdaddy
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Mar 17, 2006, 10:15 AM
 
I wouldn't know how Simey reacts when he's losing an argument.

Haven't seen it happen yet.
     
ghporter
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Mar 17, 2006, 10:25 AM
 
You know, even in the Political Forum it's rude to sidetrack and derail a thread. How about we get back to "The Butcher of the Balkans" and his neo-facist attempt to rid the world of Muslims-at least his own world.

Milosevic was an old guy who did not take care of himself while he was young; much like the old Soviet leaders. And it appears he had someone sneaking booze in for him as well... Maybe other stuff too. I think his karma ran over him, myself. But I also have to agree with Bill Clinton (for once) that I'm disappointed he didn't get convicted first. Public humiliation of the leader of that regime would be a good thing for everyone in the entire region, signaling that the world certainly does not condone and will not anywhere tolerate the kind of genocidal dictatorship Milosevic led.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
badidea
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Mar 17, 2006, 10:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy
I wouldn't know how Simey reacts when he's losing an argument.

Haven't seen it happen yet.
Is this you???
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by ghporter
But I also have to agree with Bill Clinton (for once) that I'm disappointed he didn't get convicted first. Public humiliation of the leader of that regime would be a good thing for everyone in the entire region, signaling that the world certainly does not condone and will not anywhere tolerate the kind of genocidal dictatorship Milosevic led.
Absolutely! I'm disappointed that he wasn't found guilty either. But I don't think it's a travesty of justice. We all knew from the start that there was a risk he wouldn't survive the trial. Most of us who are interested know what he did and know what the outcome would have been had he survived the last 40 hours of trial. Those who still worship him wouldn't have changed their minds just because the court found him guilty of war crimes.

The fact that there was a trial and that people have gone to jail for their crimes serves as an example to others. Plus, the trials are and have been catharctic for many of the victims. The reconciliation process is part of the point in having a trial.

"I really wanted to go to The Hague. I wanted to see the [three defendants] and to ask them why they did it. Why did they kill all these people? Why did they destroy our village? We had such good relations. We were good neighbors. I just wanted one of them . . . to tell me why they did that."
54 year-old housewife from Bosnia and Herzegovina who testified in the trial of the three men she held responsible for the death of her husband and her neighbours
( Last edited by Troll; Mar 17, 2006 at 12:15 PM. )
     
Dakar
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy
I wouldn't know how Simey reacts when he's losing an argument.

Haven't seen it happen yet.
Then I guess you lost that argument you had with him over illegal immigration a long time ago.
     
Monique
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:37 PM
 
So Doofy and Wyland, what do you want to do, open some concentration camps, gas them, make medical experiments on them, sew twins together because it might be fun, gas old people and children because they are not white and are not Christians. How far are you ready to go so they will not spoil your little world.
     
Dakar
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:41 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique
How far are you ready to go so they will not spoil your little world.
War?
     
Monique
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:48 PM
 
Ok Dakar you start it and start murdering all those little Muslims children first since they are not the right color and the right religion, then we can arrest you and charge you with anti-humaterian crimes.
     
Dakar
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Mar 17, 2006, 12:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique
Ok Dakar you start it and start murdering all those little Muslims children first since they are not the right color and the right religion, then we can arrest you and charge you with anti-humaterian crimes.
NP, meet you back in 5.
     
Weyland-Yutani
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Mar 17, 2006, 01:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique
So Doofy and Wyland, what do you want to do, open some concentration camps, gas them, make medical experiments on them, sew twins together because it might be fun, gas old people and children because they are not white and are not Christians. How far are you ready to go so they will not spoil your little world.
I'd settle for conversion or expulsion.

[note: I can't take you very seriously Monique]

cheers

W-Y

“Building Better Worlds”
     
Doofy
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Mar 17, 2006, 03:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by Monique
So Doofy and Wyland, what do you want to do, open some concentration camps, gas them, make medical experiments on them, sew twins together because it might be fun, gas old people and children because they are not white and are not Christians. How far are you ready to go so they will not spoil your little world.
I'd settle for conversion or expulsion too.
Been inclined to wander... off the beaten track.
That's where there's thunder... and the wind shouts back.
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 17, 2006, 04:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar
Then I guess you lost that argument you had with him over illegal immigration a long time ago.

Probably. I don't recall any specifics. Other than I remember being pissed off.

That was back when I smoked a lot of weed. And you know what that stuff does to your memory.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Mar 17, 2006, 04:36 PM
 
Originally Posted by Troll
That is crap and you know it. Prisoners of war don't get trials, everyone else captured during a war gets a trial. You don't argue that the Gitmo prisoners are prisoners of war, or even that they fall into the catch all category that the law refers to as civilians. You argue that the Gitmo prisoners are war criminals which is a third category of person involved in a war. Your argument is that these "unlawful combatants" fall into a black hole where no law applies to them and where they have no right to justice - ever. There we have a difference of opinion. That's a difference of opinion on the LAW. You raised justice in this thread.

I take it you know the difference between law and justice. Laws can be unjust and citing an interpretation of the laws of war as you have does not automatically mean that justice is being done. Particularly where the argument you make results in a permanent and arbitrary denial of justice. All you've done is bring an interpretation of the laws of war that offends justice.

But what's really shocking is your inability to see the contradiction in the points you make. Milosevic was an "unlwaful combatant". He didn't play by the rules of war. Now if we follow your argument, your sense of justice would not have been offended had the Serbs simply put Milosevic in a cell and thrown away the key. If he'd died last week without charges ever having been brought against him and having never set foot in a courtroom, the only logical conclusion from what you've argued in this forum is that you would have seen that as a more just solution than what actually happened. Charging the guy, trying him and having him die of natural causes before the end of the trial for you is offensive to justice but not arbitrarily locking him up and throwing away the key. I just find that bizarre.
I don't see it that way. What I see happening in this thread is your accusing me of xenophobia and my being relatively polite considering your attack on me. I was forced to defend myself against your anti-American epithet by showing you that I was criticising you personally for your inconsistent application of principles of justice and that I was not criticising your country. You forced me to personalise the argument to defend myself against your attack.
Oh, I attacked you. Right. Got it. Only, of course, your first post in this thread was an attack on me. And of course, on the US (as usual).

Sigh.

To the rest of you, I apologize for defending myself against this boorish boring boer and taking the thread off-topic. I am perfectly content to simply disagree with him and it is too bad if he cannot do the same with respect to me. So I will try to ignore him. In future, I will try not to be goaded by childishness such as:

I'm not criticising America; I'm criticising YOU and your lack of principles. You'll argue whatever you can to justify the Bush Administration's viewpoint and to score points against things like international law that threaten your emperor's power.
This is entirely a personal attack since nowhere in this thread until he started did I ever bring up anything to do with Bush! Or ever in this thread for that matter. All I said was it is a bad thing that Milosovic's trial turned into a circus and too bad that after 5 years, Milosovic died unconvicted. Good grief, even KarlG agreed with me. How anyone can read into that anything pro-Bush into that is beyond me. This seems to be nothing but a one-sided personal grudge match by someone who ought to be able to restrain his emotions.

But anyway, I will try to refrain from sinking to his level in future. This is a perfectly good thread and doesn't need to be diverted further by his personal obsessions.
     
Dakar
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Mar 17, 2006, 05:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy
Probably. I don't recall any specifics. Other than I remember being pissed off.

That was back when I smoked a lot of weed. And you know what that stuff does to your memory.
When did you quit?
     
Spliffdaddy
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Mar 17, 2006, 05:12 PM
 
Originally Posted by Dakar
When did you quit?
When I retired from my job at AT&T in November 2004.

Since then I've smoked maybe 3 or 4 times.

I was a hourly user for about 18 years.

edit: yes, hourly 365 days a year.
     
Dakar
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Mar 17, 2006, 05:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Spliffdaddy
edit: yes, hourly 365 days a year.
Well that puts your Snoop Dog comment in perspective.
     
 
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