[chabig]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Does the whole American mentality of bigger = more valuable thing factor in here? Are Americans comfortable with paying more for a larger screen just because?

There are a lot of assumptions in that question. I don't think there is an "American mentality" that bigger equals better. Nor do I think people pay for a real iPad "just because". The iPad offers real value over and above competitor's offerings, in my opinion. The real reason other tablets are available for less is because they offer less, in terms of size, features, user experience, and overall value.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by chabig 

There are a lot of assumptions in that question. I don't think there is an "American mentality" that bigger equals better. Nor do I think people pay for a real iPad "just because". The iPad offers real value over and above competitor's offerings, in my opinion. The real reason other tablets are available for less is because they offer less, in terms of size, features, user experience, and overall value.

I haven't really used a kindle, but I'm sure I'd share your opinion, I have a very high opinion of the iPad. Again, my line of questioning wasn't in context with iPad pricing, but just a general perception I've seen over the years.

Don't you remember when the differences between the 13" Macbook and 15" and 17" Macbook Pros were pretty much just screen sizes plus a minor bump in processor speed? How about iMac sizes, esp. with the lamp-style iMacs where the CPU case was identical across the board?

Maybe there was a point where bigger screens were legitimately substantially more expensive?

[chabig]

I do remember the MacBook Pros. The 15 and 17 inch models were substantially more expensive than the 13 inch machines. I don't really know, but I suspect that the larger panels were really more expensive. I think LCD manufacturing has gotten more mature to the point where larger panels don't cost significantly more. But I really don't know.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

2) Does the whole American mentality of bigger = more valuable thing factor in here? Are Americans comfortable with paying more for a larger screen just because?

No. Customers are UNcomfortable with paying more for a larger screen simply because Apple doesn't offer a larger-screen option at the lower-powered configuration.

They are, however, quite a bit less confused on the criteria they can base their purchase decision upon, and quite comfortable with living with their choice afterwards, even if they spent more than they would have intended to initially.

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by besson3c 

Don't you remember when the differences between the 13" Macbook and 15" and 17" Macbook Pros were pretty much just screen sizes plus a minor bump in processor speed?

Plus discrete graphics, plus much *better* (not just larger) display, plus aluminum case, plus backlit keyboard, plus Firewire 800, plus double the RAM at default.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Plus discrete graphics, plus much *better* (not just larger) display, plus aluminum case, plus backlit keyboard, plus Firewire 800, plus double the RAM at default.

I think this was before the days of onboard video... This might have been back in the Powerbook days.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

No, but this is the Internet, where just as in Real Life, people have the right to be snarky if they want, as long as it's within the "page [MacNN] rules". Especially if you say something that's obviously not well-thought-out, like you just did.

In other words, I find this great example of your incessantly whiny "why poor ol me?" attitude much more annoying than a bit of Internet Snobbery.

So, um, yeah: STFU noob.

It says your location is a rock. Why don't you go crawl under it?

[freudling]

Oh the TED talks. The odd one is good but I've been left with the impression now that it's full of a lot of people full of themselves. Too much pontificating. Academics love pigeon-holing the world to sound smart. I used to be one. Then I grew up. I grew some business acumen and realized just how unpredictable and diverse things really are.

Anyway, the thing that makes the iPad so great is it's a tablet that literally makes NO compromises. It's a general purpose computer. As such, it's a useful tool to a lot of people. Not something to try and line the pockets of Jeff Bezos and his marketing department.

That's why the iPad has taken off with both consumers and enterprise at an alarming rate. Same with the iPhone.

[imitchellg5]

[Eug]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Anyway, the thing that makes the iPad so great is it's a tablet that literally makes NO compromises. It's a general purpose computer.

Uh no. As far as general use computers go, the iPad for general use in its current form really is at best a compromise, unless by "general use" you mean "basic consumption".

The good news is that it's not intended to be a general use computer. It is a good consumption device, and it can function as a very good tool for some usage, but a general use computer it is not. People who need general use computers already have a laptop or desktop.

Not something to try and line the pockets of Jeff Bezos and his marketing department.

No, it's something to fill the coffers of Apple Inc., and to line the pockets of AAPL investors. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

That's why the iPad has taken off with both consumers and enterprise at an alarming rate. Same with the iPhone.

Yeah, cuz the iPhone is a general use computer too. Really, your arguments never really make much sense, no matter which side you argue for.

Last year you were in support of 7" tablets, and you didn't make sense. This year you think 7" tablets suck and are in support of 10" tablets, and you still don't make sense.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Uh no. As far as general use computers go, the iPad for general use in its current form really is at best a compromise, unless by "general use" you mean "basic consumption".

The good news is that it's not intended to be a general use computer. It is a good consumption device, and it can function as a very good tool for some usage, but a general use computer it is not. People who need general use computers already have a laptop or desktop.


No, it's something to fill the coffers of Apple Inc., and to line the pockets of AAPL investors. Not that there's anything wrong with that.


Yeah, cuz the iPhone is a general use computer too. Really, your arguments never really make much sense, no matter which side you argue for.

Last year you were in support of 7" tablets, and you didn't make sense. This year you think 7" tablets suck and are in support of 10" tablets, and you still don't make sense.

Alright Eug. Think about life before blank slates. Remember when Schiller and the gang slid the iPhone in front of that Wallstreet reporter and asked him what he saw? He said he saw a blank screen. And they said exactly.

What made the iPhone so disruptive was that it could turn into anything you wanted it to be literally. It was not limited by physicality. Smartphones before it were mostly a joke, and wholly constrained. I'm not only communicating with people with my iPhone and iPad, I'm controlling all my computers with it. Playing games. Reading books. Surfing the Web. Writing a report. Creating presentations. Doing a Podcast.

Do you get it? Do you understand the concept of general purpose computer? You're just trolling man.

[Shaddim]

The other day I realized I'd gone a week without using a "real" computer, just my iPad.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

The other day I realized I'd gone a week without using a "real" computer, just my iPad.

[freudling]

Eug:

Have you heard of the concept of abstracting the computer away? That's the movement in computer science... the tech industry. The goal is to make computers invisible. Augmented cognition. The Terminator style computer screen embedded.

Multi-touch and mobility is a big step. It has abstracted the keyboard, mouse, and big unwieldy computers away. We're going to keep evolving in this way. The Kindle Fire is just a handicapped iPad. Nothing more.

[Wiskedjak]

No one here is saying that the iPad isn't a great device. I use mine everyday and will often choose it instead of a computer. The point being made is that the iPad is a general purpose device while Kindle and Fire are task specific to reading.

Task specific devices will always be better FOR THAT SPECIFIC TASK than general purpose devices.

One can appreciate BOTH the Fire and the iPad.

[angelmb]

The Amazon Kindle Fire May Kill The RIM Playbook.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by freudling 

The Kindle Fire is just a handicapped iPad. Nothing more.

You mean like the one you were wanting just a few months ago? And what happens if Amazon releases a 10" version? Suddenly it's the exact same size as your (now, but not in 2010) perfectly sized iPad.

The points we've been making here is that devices can be built in a smaller form factor for different but related markets, regardless if Apple is the first one to release one or not, and often sell very, very well for that reason.

Apple says small MP3 players suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a small MP3 player.
Apple says tablets suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a 10" tablet.
Apple says netbooks suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases an 11" netbook.

Starting to see a pattern here?

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Eug 

You mean like the one you were wanting just a few months ago? And what happens if Amazon releases a 10" version? Suddenly it's the exact same size as your (now, but not in 2010) perfectly sized iPad.

The points we've been making here is that devices can be built in a smaller form factor for different but related markets, regardless if Apple is the first one to release one or not, and often sell very, very well for that reason.

Apple says small MP3 players suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a small MP3 player.
Apple says tablets suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a 10" tablet.
Apple says netbooks suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases an 11" netbook.

Starting to see a pattern here?

Ya I am seeing a pattern here. And I'll reserve comment.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Ya I am seeing a pattern here. And I'll reserve comment.

Of course you will. Because you're moderately schizophrenic, that's why.

[Spheric Harlot]

Is freudling perhaps actually a group of people?

Originally Posted by Eug 

Apple says small MP3 players suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a small MP3 player that doesn't suck.
Apple says tablets suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a 10" tablet that doesn't suck.
Apple says netbooks suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases an 11" netbook that doesn't suck.

Starting to see a pattern here?

Fixed for reality.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Fixed for reality.

Actually, that's my point, with the point being that just because company A can't make a good product doesn't mean company B can't either, even if that company B has already gone on record to say that company A and XYZ products of that form factor suck for reasons 123.

I had been saying for eons that the logical machine for Apple to release would be an 11" laptop, with full-sized keyboard and decent CPU at a higher price than the then current crop of netbooks. The usual Apple drone response was that netbooks sucked and Apple would be stupid to make something like that.

Then Apple released the product, but added one more feature, which was to make all of them have non-optional SSD.

To put it another way, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a 7" iPad released next year, esp. if 10" iPad sales don't continue to grow steeply. This would be a logical product release, just like an 11" MacBook Air was a logical product release.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Apple says small MP3 players suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases one that doesn't suck.
Apple says tablets suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases a 10" tablet that doesn't suck.
Apple says netbooks suck. Apple geeks agree. Then Apple releases an 11" netbook that doesn't suck.

FTFY

Let's use a car as an example. The Lamborghini Countach sucks, and I know because I've driven one. It's horrid to drive; uncomfortable, not especially powerful, rattles like a handful of dimes in a tin can, has poor visibility, is terribly unreliable, and handles like a 100 y/o tugboat. Then someone does this:



Then suddenly all those niggles are fixed (except for the visibility thing). It's the same with what Apple has done. They fixed 90% of the problems with those products and made something that's head, shoulders, and knees above anything that's come before. Is the iPad perfect? No, I think it still has too much bezel, it will run out of RAM if you really get into multitasking, and the current notification system is rubbish, but it's still the best of the breed. There really wasn't a tablet until the iPad came out, at least not one worth mentioning, and it's the same with the other products you listed. I own a 7" tablet, a mercilessly rooted and overclocked Nook Color, and it's mostly usable. But web browsing is a constant pinch and zoom affair and videos on the thing aren't much better than using my phone, plus it's still inconvenient to carry despite how thin it is. You still need some type of carrier, case, or bag to keep from mangling it. If I'm going to go through that trouble, I'd rather just grab the iPad, stick it in the neat little pack I bought from ebags.com and go on my way.

Will Apple sell a 7" tablet? They just might. Will I be buying one? No, I just don't like the form factor. It's the same reason I don't have a MBA. However, if/when they do make one, I guarantee it'll be the best tablet of it's size on the planet. Wisedjak is right, a purpose built tool is going to be better than a Swiss Army knife, which is why if I'm reading for a long time I grab my Kindle DX, because e-ink kicks LCD tech into the weeds for that type of thing. Which brings me, finally, to my main point, the Fire isn't a purpose built device, or at least it's one that's poorly defined. It's an ebook reader that can web browse and do things like a 10" tablet, only you squint and pinch a lot more... and it's terribly inferior to it's little, cheaper, brother the Kindle for the purpose that's intended, to read books. So, then you ask, WTF is this thing supposed to excel at, anyway?

[Eug]

One constant about suckage is that car analogies always suck.

Will Apple sell a 7" tablet? They just might. Will I be buying one? No, I just don't like the form factor. It's the same reason I don't have a MBA.

And there is nothing wrong with that. Lots of people like the MBA but not everyone needs or wants one.

BTW re: that point about purpose built machines: I've always felt that that the ipad makes for a mediocre e-reader. e-ink machines are much easier on the eyes. I betcha that's what Amazon thought too, but realized people are willing to deal with the drawbacks of non e-ink tablets as readers in order to have a single tablet.

[Shaddim]

Yeah, but it gave me a chance to show the Countach 3rd party redesign, which is one very sexy beast.

As for Amazon, that's where I think they dropped the ball. 7" makes it an e-reader, not a real media consumption tablet... and it, like other LCD e-readers will be mediocre. So, it isn't a good e-reader and it isn't a good tablet size in general, so one then wonders, WTF is it? They should have just bit the bullet, made a 10" tablet for $300, and took Apple head-on from the start. That would have been the smart play. Now, they're going to make this thing, which is like the Nook Color in that it really isn't sure what it is and they'll give Apple some time to make the 3rd gen iPad cheaper and better.

What should have been:

$79 Kindle
$99-149 Kindle Touch
$300-349 10" Fire, with or without 3G

Amazon has now missed a chance to get many potential iPad buyers into their ecosystem, not smart.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by ShortcutToMoncton 

Of course you will. Because you're moderately schizophrenic, that's why.

Of course you will. Because you're moderately schizophrenic, that's why.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yeah, but it gave me a chance to show the Countach 3rd party redesign, which is one very sexy beast.

As for Amazon, that's where I think they dropped the ball. 7" makes it an e-reader, not a real media consumption tablet... and it, like other LCD e-readers will be mediocre. So, it isn't a good e-reader and it isn't a good tablet size in general, so one then wonders, WTF is it? They should have just bit the bullet, made a 10" tablet for $300, and took Apple head-on from the start. That would have been the smart play. Now, they're going to make this thing, which is like the Nook Color in that it really isn't sure what it is and they'll give Apple some time to make the 3rd gen iPad cheaper and better.

What should have been:

$79 Kindle
$99-149 Kindle Touch
$300-349 10" Fire, with or without 3G

Amazon has now missed a chance to get many potential iPad buyers into their ecosystem, not smart.

I agree with this. It's an example of pushing out a product based on marketing. "Hey, let's do the 7" because it's different than the iPad! Now we won't be perceived as going neck-and-neck with it." And, "Hey, if we make a stripped down version of the iPad, it'll be cheap! We can sell it for really cheap and get lots of people buying it and then using our services!" Except... there's a lot of competition of other services out there: Spotify, Kobo, CourseSmart, iBooks, etc. that all run under the auspices of the iPad. And if everybody is buying the iPad and can have all the music, movies and books they want from non-Amazon sources, good luck Amazon selling a stripped down tweener to the world.

[Wiskedjak]

Why would Amazon need to sell a 10" tablet when their books are already readable on the iPad?

You continue to misunderstand the business that Amazon is in. Amazon sells hardware so that there are more devices out there that can buy and read books from Amazon.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Why would Amazon need to sell a 10" tablet when their books are already readable on the iPad?

You continue to misunderstand the business that Amazon is in. Amazon sells hardware so that there are more devices out there that can buy and read books from Amazon.

Indeed. I wonder if Amazon aimed first at 7" market because that market wasn't being covered by Apple, and stuff like the RIM PlayBook is just stupid, so it wasn't filling that hole either.

If the 7" gets some traction, and I think it will (unless it's unstable or if its browser and email reader suck), then it may release its own 10" later to grab the non-iPad 10" types.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Indeed. I wonder if Amazon aimed first at 7" market because that market wasn't being covered by Apple, and stuff like the RIM PlayBook is just stupid, so it wasn't filling that hole either.

Exactly. I think Amazon is just trying to fill gaps in the eReader market.

[Wiskedjak]

I wonder how Apple is going to survive now that they haven't launched a 4" screen. [/sarcasm] Much of freudlings arguments against the Fire seemed to hinge on Apple releasing a 4" iPhone today.

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Of course you will. Because you're moderately schizophrenic, that's why.

Sooooooooooooo...yeah

[Spheric Harlot]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Of course you will. Because you're moderately schizophrenic, that's why.

Sometimes, you sound so much like a fourteen-year-old psychopath that it's downright disturbing.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

Sometimes, you sound so much like a fourteen-year-old psychopath that it's downright disturbing.

Sometimes, you sound so much like a fourteen-year-old psychopath that it's downright disturbing.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Exactly. I think Amazon is just trying to fill gaps in the eReader market.

No. They're just going after the Color Nook, which has been pretty much the only other successful tablet out there. It's some market validation for them. But in relation to the iPad, Nook's sales are abysmal.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

I wonder how Apple is going to survive now that they haven't launched a 4" screen. [/sarcasm] Much of freudlings arguments against the Fire seemed to hinge on Apple releasing a 4" iPhone today.

I don't know. I'm livid at today. It sucks. 15 months for a faster processor and a better camera? Ya ya, iOS 5, which has been in the works for zillions of years it seems. It feels like we're living in a PC World with them. And the Keynote was underwhelming.

Hats off to Siri, and the rest of the cool iOS 5 features, but a new design is needed.

[The Final Dakar]

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Yeah, but it gave me a chance to show the Countach 3rd party redesign, which is one very sexy beast.

So, a Diablo?

I'm sorry, that was the worst analogy I've ever seen.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

So, a Diablo?

I'm sorry, that was the worst analogy I've ever seen.

You need better glasses if you can't see the huge difference between a Countach (sexy) and a Diablo (fugly). Seriously. My analogy was fine, some people around here simply have a plunger stuck up their ***.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

Why would Amazon need to sell a 10" tablet when their books are already readable on the iPad?

Because a 7" LCD e-reader is stupid? Because at $300 they could steal huge amounts of sales from Apple and pull more people into their exclusive ecosystem?

[imitchellg5]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

You need better glasses if you can't see the huge difference between a Countach (sexy) and a Diablo (fugly). Seriously. My analogy was fine, some people around here simply have a plunger stuck up their ***.

I really can't see a huge difference...

[Shaddim]

Like I said, you needs new glasses.

[freudling]

Just like I thought: the Fire is getting traction early on. I think it's going to taper off big time after a few months.

Quarter millions sales, impressive:

Leaked Sales Data Puts Kindle Fire Sales At 250,000 Over Five Days | TechCrunch

Only $1.75 million lost! If you count the shipping a lot more! LOL. Let's see if Amazon can turn these people into paying for crap on their site to make some cash.

[Shaddim]

How many were bought with the idea of rooting them? Makes me wonder.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Let's see if Amazon can turn these people into paying for crap on their site to make some cash.

You know that the crap in Amazon's book store is the same crap that's in Apple's book store? Except Amazon has more selection?

... of course, you still think this is just about selling tablets ...

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Wiskedjak 

You know that the crap in Amazon's book store is the same crap that's in Apple's book store? Except Amazon has more selection?

... of course, you still think this is just about selling tablets ...

Jesus, do you really take everything so literally? Like someone can't you slang without you calling them out? By crap, if I have to explain it, I mean stuff. Goods.

[imitchellg5]

Why do you think that people are any more likely to buy goods from Amazon from a Fire than they are from their computer?

[calverson]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Only $1.75 million lost! If you count the shipping a lot more! LOL. Let's see if Amazon can turn these people into paying for crap on their site to make some cash.

Yes–they can and will.

This comment reminds me of the trolls that said that the iPod would fail. And the iPhone.

[imitchellg5]

Well, you could be forgiven for thinking the iPod would fail, and probably the iPhone as well. Both were very expensive for the time and had somewhat limited markets. But the Kindle has been able to sell very, very well even since the iPad and pretty much every other eReader, apart from the Nook, have been sales failures. Amazon know what they are doing in this market.

[calverson]

From this interview with Steve Ballmer

Q: People get passionate when Apple comes out with something new — the iPhone; of course, the iPod. Is that something that you'd want them to feel about Microsoft?

A: It's sort of a funny question. Would I trade 96% of the market for 4% of the market? (Laughter.) I want to have products that appeal to everybody.

Now we'll get a chance to go through this again in phones and music players. There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance. It's a $500 subsidized item. They may make a lot of money. But if you actually take a look at the 1.3 billion phones that get sold, I'd prefer to have our software in 60% or 70% or 80% of them, than I would to have 2% or 3%, which is what Apple might get.

In the case of music, Apple got out early. They were the first to really recognize that you couldn't just think about the device and all the pieces separately. Bravo. Credit that to Steve (Jobs) and Apple. They did a nice job.

But it's not like we're at the end of the line of innovation that's going to come in the way people listen to music, watch videos, etc. I'll bet our ads will be less edgy. But my 85-year-old uncle probably will never own an iPod, and I hope we'll get him to own a Zune.

[calverson]

Originally Posted by imitchellg5 

Well, you could be forgiven for thinking the iPod would fail, and probably the iPhone as well. Both were very expensive for the time and had somewhat limited markets. But the Kindle has been able to sell very, very well even since the iPad and pretty much every other eReader, apart from the Nook, have been sales failures. Amazon know what they are doing in this market.