[Atomic Rooster]

This thread is too weird to post in!

[budster101]

And yet.....

[iLikebeer]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

If God decides when you die why not do all those things? God would then decide when a land mine will explode in your face or when the parachute will fail.

I've always wondered about how people can rationalize that. If you continue that line of thought and if god can control so many small things, then we don't really have free will and we're just doing whatever god already planned. So if he controls all of this, then none of us really have a choice to "accept Jesus Christ" or anything. The land mine was already placed by someone, who must have been doing what god wanted if that was his time to die. That kind of belief system seems very selfish, as if the person thinking like that is the only person that matters. A person doesn't survive a risky surgery because the doctor had studied for years, he survived only because of god's plan. There are a lot of inconsistencies in that line of thought. So then would prayer be god having us ask him for something he has already decided? If so, that's kind of not nice of god.

[Planet_EN]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Atheism is a belief — the belief that no god exists. It is not, in and of itself, a religion. Some religions are atheistic (Laveyan Satanism, Theravada Buddhism), some are theistic (Christianity, Hinduism).

In your second sentense you denied that it's not a religion but right after that you yourself proved that Atheism is religion, as you said: "Some religions are atheistic".

[Chuckit]

Atheism is a specific belief. Some religions hold that belief. It is not, in and of itself, a religion.

In the same way, some people have brown hair, but brown hair is not people.

[Planet_EN]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Atheism is a specific belief. Some religions hold that belief. It is not, in and of itself, a religion.

In the same way, some people have brown hair, but brown hair is not people.

Ok, so you mean that atheism judges the nature of a religion, it's not religion itself.

But I beg to differ, as for my post above, I assumed religion as the system of beliefs that shapes people's lifes and relates to the concept of God. Atheism underlines the ideology of God's in-existance, which means in some way or the other, it is related to God and this realtion is extremely tight like if you exclude the particular opinion about God from atheism then it's not atheism, so atheism is a religion that believes that there's no Deity.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit

Live life like its your very last day. Cherish every moment, cherish every day. Cause once you die, that's it.

Why? Because it's all you have? Really, I see the point, and I'm not saying that it's ignorant, I would simply like to point out that you're creating that finite existance for yourself. The limitations you place upon yourself limit your capacity.

I feel that if a person believes they're going to die and cease to "exist" then they most certainly will. It's a case of being careful of what you wish for (or fear), we can manifest almost anything... including pure nothingness.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Athens

I like to think you continue living through your children.

then gays are doomed to eternal death?

[badidea]

Originally Posted by von Wrangell

Wrong

Oh well, then it's some other religions hell I will go to!
(or i will have to go to several different ones)

[badidea]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

then gays are doomed to eternal death?

They can still donate some sperm!

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by badidea

They can still donate some sperm!

Oh yeah, that's what every gay couple is going to do... right.

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

Originally Posted by Athens

I like to think you continue living through your children.

then gays are doomed to eternal death?

It is an interesting idea though. How about this: We live on through the impact we leave on others. We have culture, and we have memory, and we can influence others through our actions when we're alive. We will be remembered (either explicitly or through the effect we have on others), and this memory is our "eternal life."

Religions are largely about dealing with our fear of death, IMO, and thinking of the impact we have on the world as our eternal life could be a humanistic way of dealing with that fear.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Planet_EN

Ok, so you mean that atheism judges the nature of a religion, it's not religion itself.

But I beg to differ, as for my post above, I assumed religion as the system of beliefs that shapes people's lifes and relates to the concept of God.

Then you need to get yourself to a dictionary. Atheism is a single belief — that there is no god. It is often incorporated into a system of beliefs, but one belief hardly qualifies as a system, I think.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I feel that if a person believes they're going to die and cease to "exist" then they most certainly will.

That is interesting way to think, How about if people think they are going to exist they won't and if they think they won't exist they will go on forever. How funny would that be?

I think that anything you "believe" will be supported by otherwise irrelevant evidence in the world around you, a healthy outlook on life is TRULY "all things in moderation" you can do a lot of irreversible damage otherwise, in terms of psychosis.

As for me, I am not an atheist, I would say Agnostic if you have to define it. I see no life after death, at least not in this realm. People who died 100 years ago are still dead. People who died 1,000 years ago are still dead. People who died 10,000 years ago are still dead. I see no reason for this to ever change.

I guess this is a tainted belief as I don't believe in a soul or a God figure or really anything spiritual.

I will address those who say "Why do this or do that if you don't believe in after life or punishment or heaven or hell" To me it is built in survival to be a "team player" in our species, I observe animals and my main focus is "why do they do that" and to me its all in the genes.

There are plenty of animals who show altruistic traits, do they have a soul? do they believe in a life after death, a god or an animal hell? Dogs [specifically] were bread to be one of the most altruistic animals, there are very specific ways to breed dogs in order to produce more altruistic offspring, this proves nothing but only supports what I believe, funny huh.

[zerostar]

Originally Posted by BRussell

How about this: We live on through the impact we leave on others. We have culture, and we have memory, and we can influence others through our actions when we're alive. We will be remembered (either explicitly or through the effect we have on others), and this memory is our "eternal life."

Excellent Look at who is admired and respected to this day, how they live on and CONTINUE to influence and to do good. This is what we have to pass on, lets make it a good one.

[Y3a]

Without a physical body, and the urges and feelings brought upon by electro-chemical reactions what would YOU be interested in? Not Sex, or food, or stimuli, etc. Perhaps the desire that 'good' wins over 'bad'??

I think the problem IS that If their needs to be a creation (instead of always here) then God must have also been created. If God was not created, then why does the universe have to have one? Chicken and egg.

what is the difference between a superstition and a religion? (don't ask Tom Cruise)

[Y3a]

So "IF" atheism IS a religious Belief,

then

wouldn't the ACLU and the 'church n state separation' crowd be barking up the wrong tree since they also profess a belief/doctorine?

[Planet_EN]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Then you need to get yourself to a dictionary. Atheism is a single belief — that there is no god. It is often incorporated into a system of beliefs, but one belief hardly qualifies as a system, I think.

No need to look in dictionary, 'cause dictionary also invites the amandments in definitions just as the scope of a certain word proceeds.

Whenever people accept certain believes the system it requires is established itself, as the true adherents practically present the visage of religion.


HAH! it's my #111 post ...

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Y3a

So "IF" atheism IS a religious Belief,

then

wouldn't the ACLU and the 'church n state separation' crowd be barking up the wrong tree since they also profess a belief/doctorine?

Why? Neither the ACLU nor supporters of the Constitution suggest that the government endorse the belief that there is no god.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Planet_EN

No need to look in dictionary, 'cause dictionary also invites the amandments in definitions just as the scope of a certain word proceeds.

Whenever people accept certain believes the system it requires is established itself, as the true aherents practically present the visage of religion.

You'll have to forgive me, but I'm having a little trouble understanding exactly what you mean. Could you try to rephrase it a little more simply, if you don't mind?

[Y3a]

<< Why? Neither the ACLU nor supporters of the Constitution suggest that the government endorse the belief that there is no god. >>

SURE THE ACLU and the liberal athiests DO!

The WRITERS of the constitution were believers.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Y3a

<< Why? Neither the ACLU nor supporters of the Constitution suggest that the government endorse the belief that there is no god. >>

SURE THE ACLU and the liberal athiests DO!

The ACLU does not and most liberal atheists in America do not. There is a difference between not endorsing theism (which they support) and endorsing atheism (which they don't support from the government).

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by Y3a

The WRITERS of the constitution were believers.

Are you sure you know what they believed? Most of them didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus nor that God played any role in the world. Most of the founding fathers would be considered atheists and probably couldn't get elected in today's political climate if their religious beliefs were known. Contemporary American Christianity is very different from what they believed.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by BRussell

Are you sure you know what they believed? Most of them didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus nor that God played any role in the world. Most of the founding fathers would be considered atheists and probably couldn't get elected in today's political climate if their religious beliefs were known. Contemporary American Christianity is very different from what they believed.

They were Freemasons (most of them anyway), and to be one you have to believe in a supreme being. It's the first thing they ask you when you apply... the second thing is "how much $ do you make?". However, let's not paint with too broad a brush here, there were many different examples of belief displayed in politics back then.

[Chuckit]

They were mostly Deists, to my knowledge. They believed in a supreme being, but they did not believe the supreme being had a whole lot to do with us.

[iLikebeer]

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

http://www.iahushua.com/hist/ffq.html#jefferson Some good quotes that show many believed in something, but rejected the church. You can begin to see where their ideas came from for separation of church and state.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

They were mostly Deists, to my knowledge. They believed in a supreme being, but they did not believe the supreme being had a whole lot to do with us.

Kinda. It's the belief in "God" as the supreme architect.

However, many beings, methods, and devices are put in place to assist us in our pursuits. "He" doesn't directly intervene, but his constructs (and messengers) can and do.

I recommend:

Born in Blood, by John J. Robinson

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by iLikebeer

"In every country and every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot ... they have perverted the purest religion ever preached to man into mystery and jargon, unintelligible to all mankind, and therefore the safer engine for their purpose." - Thomas Jefferson, to Horatio Spafford, March 17, 1814

"History I believe furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purpose." - Thomas Jefferson to Baron von Humboldt, 1813

Yup, they were against the excesses of the priesthood, and the control they excercised (as am I), but not Christianity or religion in general.

[AKcrab]

Originally Posted by Y3a

The WRITERS of the constitution were believers.

So? They also had slaves and didn't let women vote.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by AKcrab

So? They also had slaves and didn't let women vote.

You mean they were Arabs?

[James L]

Originally Posted by Witness2005

The happiest people on earth are Christians. We have peace. Do you? We know that our loving God is watching over us at all times. I am very happily married, I have many friends and family. I enjoy pizza, movies and road trips. The Christian life is not dull at all, it's an adventure. I suggest you try it.

Proof please.

I have a wife. A child. A dog. A cat. I exercise. I hike. I do martial arts. I save lives for a living (and lose some too unfortunately). I volunteer with the Red Cross. I teach in troubled youth programs.

I have peace. I have friends. I have family. I enjoy pizza, movies, and road trips.

I am not Christian.

Show me proof that you are happier than me.

Until you do, you are just arrogant and delusional.

Of course, I am always willing to change my view point with some proof.

[Chuckit]

Incidentally, hasn't it been scientifically shown that Buddhism is the happiest religion?

[James L]

Originally Posted by budster101

Why bother living at all if there is nothing to look forward to when you die?

You are kidding right? Here is my day so far:

1) Woke up to my young baby in my wifes arms. Spent time with them in bed, being a family.

2) Took my 7 month old golden retriever puppy for a walk in the nice warm morning air.

3) Returned home to have breakfast with my family.

4) Went to my martial arts class. Had my butt handed to me a dozen times by my instructor. Had a great sweat, great cardio, couple of new bruises. Enjoyed some great comraderie (sp?) with the guys.

5) Had an early supper with my entire family, including neices, parents, etc.

6) About to shower, and head out to a 12 hour night shift at work. I might save a life. I might lose a life. I might get spit at and assaulted, or I might help deliver a baby. Incredibly rewarding job.


Budster, honestly dude, what is NOT to live for? The thought of looking forward to something when I die did not enter my mind in the least today. I lived for today. Tomorrow I will live for tomorrow. I live my life to the best of my ability. If my maker (if I have one) respects that... great. If not, it's his or her loss.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by budster101

Why bother living at all ...

I live for my daughters, now.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by budster101

... I'm not afraid of death.

Believe me, you are (you'll know when your time comes).

[budster101]

Sorry, I'm not afraid of death. I've looked deep into his eyes and he's nothing to me.

[Chuckit]

True that. It's easy not to be afraid of death when somebody isn't holding a knife in your face.

[zwiebel_]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

True that. It's easy not to be afraid of death when somebody isn't holding a knife in your face.

Or if your executioner brings you and a dozen other guys out to be shot, and ends up shooting up people randomly, depending on his mood, all in the name of his god.

[budster101]

It's just that I have been close to death a few times before, and I'm no longer affraid...

[RonnieoftheRose]

Just want to add my opinion to this dumb topic.

Even 72 virgins would get boring after 36 days. Does anyone know if one gets a refresh?

[budster101]

This topic is gay.. wait....

[Johnnyboysmac]

Hmm

The concept of an afterlife.

Interesting.

Speaking as someone who had an intial basic Christian upbringing, followed by a strong involvement for a good many years with the more Pentacostal movement, now happily Gay and still with a measure of Christian beliefs (you right-wingers will undoubtedly not want to hear it, or believe it, but I'm quite happy that God created me this way - Gay that is) I view an afterlife concept with interest.

My basic Christian beliefs say yes, but my shall we say more natural/human instincts say no.

Thing is, no one has 'come back' to tell us about it. None of the space exploration we have so far experienced has revealed exactly where heaven and hell are. If they are not a physical place, then exactly where are they?

In the moment that one dies, how does the soul/spirit etc, 'get' there.

Does the Muslim terrorist who blows himself up with a bomb, killing himself and others whilst believing he is going to be a matyr and go to 'paradise' wonder how all the various bits of his body blown asunder are going to make it to paradise in one piece? Travel separately perhaps?

Yes, I'm sure we can easily address these little troubling issues that tend to fall in the arena of common sense with virtuous declamations such as 'no one knows the will of God'

So true, but then, no one has really seen him/her either.

So we just trust/believe/have faith etc.

I figure that as I have fundamental belief, when I die, either I'll end up in heaven, in which case God is real, or there'll be 'nothing' in which case I won't know any difference anyway.

I'm realtively content with that believe it or not.

Best Regards

John...

[Y3a]

I always thought that the Muslims 73 virgins were just as ugly as they are so in a way it's just deserts! LOL

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by Y3a

I always thought that the Muslims 73 virgins were just as ugly as they are so in a way it's just deserts! LOL

Desserts. The main course however...

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Chuckit

Incidentally, hasn't it been scientifically shown that Buddhism is the happiest religion?

I can believe that, they and Taoists seem to have the market cornered when it comes to overall "joyous living". Some of my best friends are Buddhist/Taoist, and their perpetual smiles make me bored sometimes. Don't get me wrong, they're awesome people, just a bit on the dull side.

Personally, I wouldn't like being THAT happy... I've got to have some challenge and controversy in the mix somewhere. Like good `ol Al said:

"Show me someone who is always smiling, and I'll show you a perpetual fool." - A. Crowley

I think that's harsh, but not completely off.

[strictlyplaid]

Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose

Desserts. The main course however...

Actually, he's right: it's deserts, as in deserve.

From Em-Dub:

Main Entry: 3de·sert
Pronunciation: di-'z&rt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English deserte, from Old French, from feminine of desert, past participle of deservir to deserve
1 : the quality or fact of deserving reward or punishment
2 : deserved reward or punishment -- usually used in plural <got their just deserts>
3 : EXCELLENCE, WORTH

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I can believe that, they and Taoists seem to have the market cornered when it comes to overall "joyous living". Some of my best friends are Buddhist/Taoist, and their perpetual smiles make me bored sometimes. Don't get me wrong, they're awesome people, just a bit on the dull side.

They're happy because they're not giving their money away to charlatan preachers and mullahs who talk for God up there.

[RonnieoftheRose]

Originally Posted by strictlyplaid

Actually, he's right: it's deserts, as in deserve.

I mean desserts. Some people.

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by MacNStein

I can believe that, they and Taoists seem to have the market cornered when it comes to overall "joyous living". Some of my best friends are Buddhist/Taoist, and their perpetual smiles make me bored sometimes. Don't get me wrong, they're awesome people, just a bit on the dull side.

Personally, I wouldn't like being THAT happy... I've got to have some challenge and controversy in the mix somewhere.

Huh? Happiness is pleasant by definition, and pleasant things by definition are things you like. I think what you mean is that you could just never achieve that. (I don't know if I could either...)

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by RonnieoftheRose

They're happy because they're not giving their money away to charlatan preachers and mullahs who talk for God up there.

I don't think that's it, most couldn't care less about $ or material worth.

FYI, to receive Tao (join their fellowship) you're required to help support the temple, which comes to a minimum of 10% "tithe" on your income. It's the same with all the Taoist Holy Houses I've ever visited.