[Big Mac]

My view: B.H.O. is most likely still a Muslim at heart, although he decided years back that his presidential aspirations would only make sense to the world if he could claim a Christian identity. The truths about his childhood and the true nature of his Christianity are starting to leak out, and the Democratic elite likely know this will all come back to haunt him and the party if he is their nominee.

israelinsider: politics: Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?

Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?
By Reuven Koret March 27, 2008

Bookmark to del.icio.usDigg!Digg This Story

The glib handling of criticism of his relationship with the anti-American ("God Damn America!") and anti-Israel ("a dirty word for Negroes") Reverend James Wright may have bought him a little time. But the legacy of dissimulation about his long-concealed identity is about to come crashing down around the ears of Barack Hussein Obama, courtesy of the assembled testimony of his family, friends, classmates and teachers.

The accumulated research indicates that Obama was in his childhood a devout Muslim, the son of a devout Muslim, the step-son of a devout Muslim and the grandson and namesake ("Hussein") of a devout Muslim. He was registered in school as a Muslim and demonstrated his ability to chant praise to Allah in impressive Arab-accented tones even as an adult. Just as he has not disavowed his "uncle" Jeremiah, neither has he disavowed his Muslim faith that he was born into, raised with, celebrated and never abandoned. He just covered it over with a thin veneer of his own self-styled "Christianity."

Although as an adult he would register as a Christian, and occasionally attend a Christian Church (but apparently not often enough to listen to the preaching of his pastor, or so he would claim) this was a necessary step for a man who from earliest boyhood has nurtured the precocious ambition to be President of the United States.

He was entered into the Roman Catholic, Franciscus Assisi Primary School, in Jakarta, Indonesia, on January 1, 1968, registered under the name Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen whose religion was listed as Islam. Catholic schools accept non-Catholics worldwide. Non-Catholic students are typically excused from religious instruction and ceremony.

In kindergarten, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want to Become President.'"Iis Darmawan, 63, Senator Obama's kindergarten teacher, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, 'I Want To Become President,' the teacher said." [AP, 1/25/07]

Three years later, in 1971, Obama enrolled in the Besuki Primary School, a government school, as Barry Soetoro, Muslim. In third grade, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want To Be a President.' His third grade teacher: Fermina Katarina Sinaga "asked her class to write an essay titled 'My dream: What I want to be in the future.' Senator Obama wrote 'I want to be a President,' she said." [The Los Angeles Times, 3/15/07]

All Indonesian students are required to study religion at school and a young Barry Soetoro, being a Muslim, would have been required to study Islam daily in school.

He would have been taught to read and write Arabic, to recite his prayers properly, to read and recite from the Quran and to study the laws of Islam.

In his autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," Obama mentions studying the Koran and describes the public school as "a Muslim school."

"In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies."

According to Tine Hahiyary, one of Obama's teachers and the principal from 1971 through 1989, Barry actively took part in the Islamic religious lessons during his time at the school. "I remembered that he had studied "mengaji" (recitation of the Quran)" Tine said.

The author of the Laotze blog writes from Jakarta: "The actual usage of the word 'mengaji' in Indonesian and Malaysian societies means the study of learning to recite the Quran in the Arabic language rather than the native tongue. "Mengagi" is a word and a term that is accorded the highest value and status in the mindset of fundamentalist societies here in Southeast Asia. To put it quite simply, 'mengaji classes' are not something that a non practicing or so-called moderate Muslim family would ever send their child to. To put this in a Christian context, this is something above and beyond simply enrolling your child in Sunday school classes."

"The fact that Obama had attended mengaji classes is well known in Indonesia and has left many there wondering just when Obama is going to come out of the closet."

"As I've stated before, the evidence seems to quite clearly show that both Ann Dunham and her husband Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo were in fact devout Muslims themselves and they raised their son as such."

The Obama Campaign told the LA Times he wasn't a "practicing Muslim." (3/14/2007). But his official website says: "Obama Has Never Been A Muslim, And Is a Committed Christian" (11/12/2007)

That's not what his friends and classmates have said. Classmate Rony Amiris describes young Barry as enjoying playing football and marbles and of being a very devout Muslim. Amir said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. We previously often asked him to the prayer room close to the house. If he was wearing a sarong, he looked funny," said Rony.

Amiris, now the manager of Bank Mandiri, Jakarta, recently said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. His birth father, Barack Hussein Obama was a Muslim economist from Kenya. Before marrying Ann Dunham, Hussein Obama was married to a woman from Kenya who had seven children. All the relatives of Barry's father were very devout Muslims"

Emirsyah Satar, CEO of Garuda Indonesia, was quoted as saying, "He (Obama) was often in the prayer room wearing a 'sarong', at that time."

"He was quite religious in Islam but only after marrying Michelle, he changed his religion."
So Obama, according to his classmates and friends was a Muslim until the confluence of love and ambitious, caused him to adopt the cloak of Christianity: to marry Michelle and to run for President of the United States.

In "Dreams," Obama sheds light on his formative years and the political views of his mother, an anthropologist and Islamophile who hated America and subsequently "went native." (It was her mother -- Barry's "other" grandmother who cared for him in his druggie teenage years -- that he would describe as a "typical white person" who was, he said scoldingly, fearful of black men and prone to making stereotypical racial remarks.)

Obama Senior also had three sons by another woman who are all Muslim. Although Obama claims Senior was an atheist, Senior was buried as a Muslim.

Barack Obama's brother Roy opted for Islam over Christianity, as the Senator recounted in his book when describing his 1992 wedding. "The person who made me proudest of all," Obama wrote, "was Roy. Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam, and has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol."Abongo "argues that the black man must "liberate himself from the poisoning influences of European culture." He urged his younger brother to embrace his African heritage.

In Kenya while he was a Senator, Obama stumped for his cousin, opposition leader Raila Odinga, the son of Senior's sister, a direct first cousin and nephew of Obama's father.
On August 29, 2007, Raila Odinga and Shiekh Abdullah Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum of Kenya signed a Memorandum of Understanding in which it pledges the support of Kenyan Moslems for Raila's election. In return, as President of Kenya, Raila agrees ... within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Shariah as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions [and] within one year to facilitate the establishment of a Shariah court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters -- everywhere in Kenya, not just in "Muslim declared regions" -- and to popularize Islam, the only true religion ... by ordering every primary school in Kenya in the regions to conduct daily Madrassa classes.

In an interview with the New York Times, published on April 30th, Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama's younger half sister, told the Times, "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."

Obama describes his new found "Christian" faith as: (1) Suspicious of dogma (2) Without any monopoly on the truth (3) Nontransferable to others (4) Infused with a big healthy dose of doubt, and (5) Indulgent of and compatible with all other religions.

On February 27th, speaking to Kristof of The New York Times, Barack Hussein Obama said the Muslim call to prayer is "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Muslim call to prayer, the Adhan, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."
The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet? "

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim. This simple yet profound statement expresses a Muslim's complete acceptance of, and total commitment to, the message of Islam. Obama chanted it with pride and finesse.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia blog, written by an American who has lived in Indonesia for 20 years and has met with both the Taliban and al-Qaeda, contains the following:

"Barack Hussein Obama might have convinced some Americans that he is no longer a Muslim, but so far he has not convinced many in the world's most populous Muslim country who still see him as a Muslim and a crusader for Islam and world peace."

"Barack Hussein Obama's race, his staunch opposition to the war in Iraq, his sympathy to Islam and Muslims worldwide and his Muslim heritage receive the Indonesian media coverage. There is no mention of his apostasy."

"A good example of how some of the Indonesian media is reporting on Obama's religion can be found in the following."

"What I found interesting in the article was the use of the word 'mengaku' when refering to Obama's conversion from Islam to Christianity. The word 'mengaku' in Indonesian means "claimed" and as such leaves the insinuation to the native Indonesian reader being that Obama might actually still be a Muslim.

But this is how Indonesians see Obama, they don't see him as an apostate at all, they see him as a crusader for the cause of Islam."

Obama wants it both ways, has always wanted it both ways. Black and white, Indonesian and American, Muslim and Christian. He loves playing one off the other, using one to hide the other even as the traces of the truth may be assembled to reveal the whole cloth of deception and self-promotion he has been weaving so skillfully since his childhood. No wonder he is a man of change. He IS a changeling, a veritable chameleon, adapting and amending his life story to fit the circumstances.

The charm may have worked once. It still works on some. It won't work forever in the age of the Internet. The fog of ambiguity and dissimulation is dissipated by the harsh, unforgiving and scrutiny of the blogosphere and its unlimited access to historical facts and time-stamped testimony.

Many have been puzzled why Obama could claim not to be familiar with Wright's rants. It turns out the Trinity Church, like many African-American churches, happily accepts believing Muslims within its congregation. And evidently many Muslims have no problems surrounding themselves with an anti-American, anti-Israel preacher who week in and week out wins the amens of his adoring congregation.

On Feb 15/08, Usama K. Dakdok, President of The Straight Way of Grace Ministry called Obama's Church and reported the following conversation: " I then asked the person who answered what I needed to do to join. She told me that I needed to attend two Sunday School classes in a row and then I would walk the aisle. I replied, "That sounds easy. One last question please. If I am Muslim and I believe in the Prophet Mohammed, peace be unto him and I also believe in Jesus, peace be unto him, do I have to give up my Islamic faith to be a member in your church? She answered: "No, we have many Muslim members in our church."

Indeed.

Credit for these reports and revelations -- assembling the statements of those who love and admire Barry Soetoro aka Barack Hussein Obama -- belong primarily to the writers, researchers, and journalists cited in and contributing to the above references. Special hat tip to Ted Belman of Israpundit for putting most of the pieces together. One can be sure that more, much more, is on the way, before the first black muslim president enters the White House. Or not.

[RAILhead]

His whole church thing is ridiculous. My opinion is that he never really went all that often based on 2 things:

1. For being "so close" with his pastor, he sure backpedaled and said he didn't know much about him or hear too many racists sermons. The pastor pretty much performed the same every Sunday, so it would been BO either wasn't there all that often, or he brought his iPod.

2. He gave less that 1% of his massive income to charity. WHAT?!?

Give us a break BO, anyone who thinks you're concerned with faith anywhere close to Christianity is deluded.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My view: B.H.O. is most likely still a Muslim at heart, although he decided years back that his presidential aspirations would only make sense to the world if he could claim a Christian identity. The truths about his childhood and the true nature of his Christianity are starting to leak out, and the Democratic elite likely know this will all come back to haunt him and the party if he is their nominee.

israelinsider: politics: Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?

Is Barack Obama a Muslim wolf in Christian wool?
By Reuven Koret March 27, 2008

Bookmark to del.icio.usDigg!Digg This Story

The glib handling of criticism of his relationship with the anti-American ("God Damn America!") and anti-Israel ("a dirty word for Negroes") Reverend James Wright may have bought him a little time. But the legacy of dissimulation about his long-concealed identity is about to come crashing down around the ears of Barack Hussein Obama, courtesy of the assembled testimony of his family, friends, classmates and teachers.

The accumulated research indicates that Obama was in his childhood a devout Muslim, the son of a devout Muslim, the step-son of a devout Muslim and the grandson and namesake ("Hussein") of a devout Muslim. He was registered in school as a Muslim and demonstrated his ability to chant praise to Allah in impressive Arab-accented tones even as an adult. Just as he has not disavowed his "uncle" Jeremiah, neither has he disavowed his Muslim faith that he was born into, raised with, celebrated and never abandoned. He just covered it over with a thin veneer of his own self-styled "Christianity."

Although as an adult he would register as a Christian, and occasionally attend a Christian Church (but apparently not often enough to listen to the preaching of his pastor, or so he would claim) this was a necessary step for a man who from earliest boyhood has nurtured the precocious ambition to be President of the United States.

He was entered into the Roman Catholic, Franciscus Assisi Primary School, in Jakarta, Indonesia, on January 1, 1968, registered under the name Barry Soetoro, an Indonesian citizen whose religion was listed as Islam. Catholic schools accept non-Catholics worldwide. Non-Catholic students are typically excused from religious instruction and ceremony.

In kindergarten, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want to Become President.'"Iis Darmawan, 63, Senator Obama's kindergarten teacher, remembers him as an exceptionally tall and curly haired child who quickly picked up the local language and had sharp math skills. He wrote an essay titled, 'I Want To Become President,' the teacher said." [AP, 1/25/07]

Three years later, in 1971, Obama enrolled in the Besuki Primary School, a government school, as Barry Soetoro, Muslim. In third grade, Senator Obama wrote an essay titled 'I Want To Be a President.' His third grade teacher: Fermina Katarina Sinaga "asked her class to write an essay titled 'My dream: What I want to be in the future.' Senator Obama wrote 'I want to be a President,' she said." [The Los Angeles Times, 3/15/07]

All Indonesian students are required to study religion at school and a young Barry Soetoro, being a Muslim, would have been required to study Islam daily in school.

He would have been taught to read and write Arabic, to recite his prayers properly, to read and recite from the Quran and to study the laws of Islam.

In his autobiography, "Dreams From My Father," Obama mentions studying the Koran and describes the public school as "a Muslim school."

"In the Muslim school, the teacher wrote to tell mother I made faces during Koranic studies."

According to Tine Hahiyary, one of Obama's teachers and the principal from 1971 through 1989, Barry actively took part in the Islamic religious lessons during his time at the school. "I remembered that he had studied "mengaji" (recitation of the Quran)" Tine said.

The author of the Laotze blog writes from Jakarta: "The actual usage of the word 'mengaji' in Indonesian and Malaysian societies means the study of learning to recite the Quran in the Arabic language rather than the native tongue. "Mengagi" is a word and a term that is accorded the highest value and status in the mindset of fundamentalist societies here in Southeast Asia. To put it quite simply, 'mengaji classes' are not something that a non practicing or so-called moderate Muslim family would ever send their child to. To put this in a Christian context, this is something above and beyond simply enrolling your child in Sunday school classes."

"The fact that Obama had attended mengaji classes is well known in Indonesia and has left many there wondering just when Obama is going to come out of the closet."

"As I've stated before, the evidence seems to quite clearly show that both Ann Dunham and her husband Lolo Soetoro Mangunharjo were in fact devout Muslims themselves and they raised their son as such."

The Obama Campaign told the LA Times he wasn't a "practicing Muslim." (3/14/2007). But his official website says: "Obama Has Never Been A Muslim, And Is a Committed Christian" (11/12/2007)

That's not what his friends and classmates have said. Classmate Rony Amiris describes young Barry as enjoying playing football and marbles and of being a very devout Muslim. Amir said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. We previously often asked him to the prayer room close to the house. If he was wearing a sarong, he looked funny," said Rony.

Amiris, now the manager of Bank Mandiri, Jakarta, recently said, "Barry was previously quite religious in Islam. His birth father, Barack Hussein Obama was a Muslim economist from Kenya. Before marrying Ann Dunham, Hussein Obama was married to a woman from Kenya who had seven children. All the relatives of Barry's father were very devout Muslims"

Emirsyah Satar, CEO of Garuda Indonesia, was quoted as saying, "He (Obama) was often in the prayer room wearing a 'sarong', at that time."

"He was quite religious in Islam but only after marrying Michelle, he changed his religion."
So Obama, according to his classmates and friends was a Muslim until the confluence of love and ambitious, caused him to adopt the cloak of Christianity: to marry Michelle and to run for President of the United States.

In "Dreams," Obama sheds light on his formative years and the political views of his mother, an anthropologist and Islamophile who hated America and subsequently "went native." (It was her mother -- Barry's "other" grandmother who cared for him in his druggie teenage years -- that he would describe as a "typical white person" who was, he said scoldingly, fearful of black men and prone to making stereotypical racial remarks.)

Obama Senior also had three sons by another woman who are all Muslim. Although Obama claims Senior was an atheist, Senior was buried as a Muslim.

Barack Obama's brother Roy opted for Islam over Christianity, as the Senator recounted in his book when describing his 1992 wedding. "The person who made me proudest of all," Obama wrote, "was Roy. Actually, now we call him Abongo, his Luo name, for two years ago he decided to reassert his African heritage. He converted to Islam, and has sworn off pork and tobacco and alcohol."Abongo "argues that the black man must "liberate himself from the poisoning influences of European culture." He urged his younger brother to embrace his African heritage.

In Kenya while he was a Senator, Obama stumped for his cousin, opposition leader Raila Odinga, the son of Senior's sister, a direct first cousin and nephew of Obama's father.
On August 29, 2007, Raila Odinga and Shiekh Abdullah Abdi, chairman of the National Muslim Leaders Forum of Kenya signed a Memorandum of Understanding in which it pledges the support of Kenyan Moslems for Raila's election. In return, as President of Kenya, Raila agrees ... within 6 months re-write the Constitution of Kenya to recognize Shariah as the only true law sanctioned by the Holy Quran for Muslim declared regions [and] within one year to facilitate the establishment of a Shariah court in every Kenyan divisional headquarters -- everywhere in Kenya, not just in "Muslim declared regions" -- and to popularize Islam, the only true religion ... by ordering every primary school in Kenya in the regions to conduct daily Madrassa classes.

In an interview with the New York Times, published on April 30th, Maya Soetoro-Ng, Obama's younger half sister, told the Times, "My whole family was Muslim, and most of the people I knew were Muslim."

Obama describes his new found "Christian" faith as: (1) Suspicious of dogma (2) Without any monopoly on the truth (3) Nontransferable to others (4) Infused with a big healthy dose of doubt, and (5) Indulgent of and compatible with all other religions.

On February 27th, speaking to Kristof of The New York Times, Barack Hussein Obama said the Muslim call to prayer is "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."

In an interview with Nicholas Kristof, published in The New York Times, Obama recited the Muslim call to prayer, the Adhan, "with a first-class [Arabic] accent."
The opening lines of the Adhan (Azaan) is the Shahada:

"Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
Allah is Supreme! Allah is Supreme!
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that there is no god but Allah
I witness that Muhammad is his prophet? "

According to Islamic scholars, reciting the Shahada, the Muslim declaration of faith, makes one a Muslim. This simple yet profound statement expresses a Muslim's complete acceptance of, and total commitment to, the message of Islam. Obama chanted it with pride and finesse.

An American Expat in Southeast Asia blog, written by an American who has lived in Indonesia for 20 years and has met with both the Taliban and al-Qaeda, contains the following:

"Barack Hussein Obama might have convinced some Americans that he is no longer a Muslim, but so far he has not convinced many in the world's most populous Muslim country who still see him as a Muslim and a crusader for Islam and world peace."

"Barack Hussein Obama's race, his staunch opposition to the war in Iraq, his sympathy to Islam and Muslims worldwide and his Muslim heritage receive the Indonesian media coverage. There is no mention of his apostasy."

"A good example of how some of the Indonesian media is reporting on Obama's religion can be found in the following."

"What I found interesting in the article was the use of the word 'mengaku' when refering to Obama's conversion from Islam to Christianity. The word 'mengaku' in Indonesian means "claimed" and as such leaves the insinuation to the native Indonesian reader being that Obama might actually still be a Muslim.

But this is how Indonesians see Obama, they don't see him as an apostate at all, they see him as a crusader for the cause of Islam."

Obama wants it both ways, has always wanted it both ways. Black and white, Indonesian and American, Muslim and Christian. He loves playing one off the other, using one to hide the other even as the traces of the truth may be assembled to reveal the whole cloth of deception and self-promotion he has been weaving so skillfully since his childhood. No wonder he is a man of change. He IS a changeling, a veritable chameleon, adapting and amending his life story to fit the circumstances.

The charm may have worked once. It still works on some. It won't work forever in the age of the Internet. The fog of ambiguity and dissimulation is dissipated by the harsh, unforgiving and scrutiny of the blogosphere and its unlimited access to historical facts and time-stamped testimony.

Many have been puzzled why Obama could claim not to be familiar with Wright's rants. It turns out the Trinity Church, like many African-American churches, happily accepts believing Muslims within its congregation. And evidently many Muslims have no problems surrounding themselves with an anti-American, anti-Israel preacher who week in and week out wins the amens of his adoring congregation.

On Feb 15/08, Usama K. Dakdok, President of The Straight Way of Grace Ministry called Obama's Church and reported the following conversation: " I then asked the person who answered what I needed to do to join. She told me that I needed to attend two Sunday School classes in a row and then I would walk the aisle. I replied, "That sounds easy. One last question please. If I am Muslim and I believe in the Prophet Mohammed, peace be unto him and I also believe in Jesus, peace be unto him, do I have to give up my Islamic faith to be a member in your church? She answered: "No, we have many Muslim members in our church."

Indeed.

Credit for these reports and revelations -- assembling the statements of those who love and admire Barry Soetoro aka Barack Hussein Obama -- belong primarily to the writers, researchers, and journalists cited in and contributing to the above references. Special hat tip to Ted Belman of Israpundit for putting most of the pieces together. One can be sure that more, much more, is on the way, before the first black muslim president enters the White House. Or not.

Didn't want the hernia inducing size of your cut-n-paste to be the most obnoxious thing in the thread, so I thought I'd quote it in its entirety.

[Chuckit]

Good grief. I recall that very recently you were suggesting his heart of hearts lay with that Christian church. I suppose next week it's going to be "Barack wants to turn this into a socialist welfare state," and then the week after that it will be "Barack won't do anything for the poor." We shouldn't cry wolf (literally, in this case) every time we read a negative opinion piece about Obama.

The quoted article in the OP also wants it both ways. The writer tries to make it seem like Obama is being sneaky and hiding his true nature, but then to support this he quotes such secret and arcane documents as Obama's book and interviews with major media outlets. This strikes me more as FUD than a legitimate and even-handed analysis of the evidence.

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by subego 

Didn't want the hernia inducing size of your cut-n-paste to be the most obnoxious thing in the thread, so I thought I'd quote it in its entirety.

You could have just asked me to trim it down if it bothered you so much.

[peeb]

[Chuckit]

Peeb's cartoon is sadly accurate. It's disappointing how, in lieu of actual criticism or analysis, all we get is a bunch of poo thrown at him in hopes that some will stick.

[sek929]

<yawn> is this all republicans have to talk about right now?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by sek929 

<yawn> is this all republicans have to talk about right now?

you do know it is the Clintonistas that are behind this story?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Chuckit 

Peeb's cartoon is sadly accurate. It's disappointing how, in lieu of actual criticism or analysis, all we get is a bunch of poo thrown at him in hopes that some will stick.

Rather like what libs have been doing with Bush for the last eight years.

Get used to it - this is how modern politics is now.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

You could have just asked me to trim it down if it bothered you so much.

After all the effort I spent being a dick, you want me to nag you too?

[peeb]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

you do know it is the Clintonistas that are behind this story?

The 'Clintonistas' run 'Israel Insider' now?

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

The 'Clintonistas' run 'Israel Insider' now?

all part of the "vast left wing conspiracy"

[Chuckit]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Rather like what libs have been doing with Bush for the last eight years.

Get used to it - this is how modern politics is now.

True. I kind of hoped some Republicans would have learned how tacky it looks after being on the receiving end for so long, but I guess that's my starry-eyed idealism showing.

[vmarks]

The thing about Mr. Obama, is that he is whatever you want him to be - he's vague enough that anyone can read whatever they please from his statements. I came away from his speech on Pastor Wright and his grandmother seeing that he hadn't distanced himself from Wright and sullied his grandmother's name. Chuckit and others saw the opposite.

In the case of BigMac, Obama speaks, and BigMac can find everything he is opposed to in whatever Obama says -- because Obama is pretty much all things to all people.

Unfortunately, if elected, he's going to disappoint people who have heard what they have wanted to hear.

[subego]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Rather like what libs have been doing with Bush for the last eight years.

Get used to it - this is how modern politics is now.

"Clinton's supporters rehashed the old allegations that Bush had corruptly influenced legislation...his opponents reported that Clinton had fathered an illegitimate child..."

Okay, I changed the names around from the wiki article, these quotes are actually about the Presidential election of 1884.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

The thing about Mr. Obama, is that he is whatever you want him to be - he's vague enough that anyone can read whatever they please from his statements. I came away from his speech on Pastor Wright and his grandmother seeing that he hadn't distanced himself from Wright and sullied his grandmother's name. Chuckit and others saw the opposite.

In the case of BigMac, Obama speaks, and BigMac can find everything he is opposed to in whatever Obama says -- because Obama is pretty much all things to all people.

Unfortunately, if elected, he's going to disappoint people who have heard what they have wanted to hear.

Really? Can you give an example of a major policy area where he is "vague enough that anyone can read whatever they please from his statements"?

[tie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My view: B.H.O. is most likely still a Muslim at heart, although he decided years back that his presidential aspirations would only make sense to the world if he could claim a Christian identity. The truths about his childhood and the true nature of his Christianity are starting to leak out, and the Democratic elite likely know this will all come back to haunt him and the party if he is their nominee.

Plus he's black.

[tie]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My view: B.H.O. is most likely still a Muslim at heart, although he decided years back that his presidential aspirations would only make sense to the world if he could claim a Christian identity. The truths about his childhood and the true nature of his Christianity are starting to leak out, and the Democratic elite likely know this will all come back to haunt him and the party if he is their nominee.

Oh, and Big Mac, you dropped out of that other thread you started. So you concede that BRussell is right?

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by subego 

"Clinton's supporters rehashed the old allegations that Bush had corruptly influenced legislation...his opponents reported that Clinton had fathered an illegitimate child..."

Okay, I changed the names around from the wiki article, these quotes are actually about the Presidential election of 1884.

Point taken.

[BRussell]

I've been getting this constant stream of spam from a site called "israpundit." About 80% is anti-Obama stuff about how he's secretly a Muslim, how he really is on al Qaeda's side, etc. I have no idea how I got on their list, but I kinda enjoy it. It's an eye-opener to how the under-the-radar campaign against Obama is going to play out over the next 9 months.

[lpkmckenna]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

My view: B.H.O. is most likely still a Muslim at heart, although he decided years back that his presidential aspirations would only make sense to the world if he could claim a Christian identity.

You disgust me.

[paul w]

It's official folks, "muslim" is the new "commie".

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by lpkmckenna 

You disgust me.

I am so glad. Good argument, btw. I look at the facts and that's what I see. That's all there is to it.

[paul w]

Facts? All you're doing is yelling "muslim muslim muslim!!!!".

[BRussell]

Originally Posted by paul w 

It's official folks, "muslim" is the new "commie".

I think we need a congressional committee to hold investigations as to whether Obama or any other government figure is now or ever has been a Muslim. Maybe we can give them immunity if they turn in other Muslims. Rumor has it that there may be two Muslims in congress!

[sek929]

Originally Posted by paul w 

Facts? All you're doing is yelling "muslim muslim muslim!!!!".

It's easy when you make up your own facts, then everything you say is a fact! Ingenious!

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by paul w 

It's official folks, "muslim" is the new "commie".

There were those who believe that the USSR/Russia is behind the PLO, Black September, Muslim Brotherhood et al because it serves their purpose of destabilizing the west.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

There were those who believe that the USSR/Russia is behind the PLO, Black September, Muslim Brotherhood et al because it serves their purpose of destabilizing the west.

And there are those who think that terrorists are going to kill them, when in fact they're going to die of any number of causes, many of which are preventable and/or caused by their own stupidity. What these people suffer from is irrational paranoia.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

And there are those who think that terrorists are going to kill them, when in fact they're going to die of any number of causes, many of which are preventable and/or caused by their own stupidity. What these people suffer from is irrational paranoia.

like the paranoid people at LiveLeak.com - Redefining the Media until they found their cajones

On the 28th of March LiveLeak.com was left with no other choice but to remove the film "fitna" from our servers following serious threats to our staff and their families. Since that time we have worked constantly on upgrading all security measures thus offering better protection for our staff and families. With these measures in place we have decided to once more make this video live on our site. We will not be pressured into censoring material which is legal and within our rules. We apologise for the removal and the delay in getting it back, but when you run a website you don't consider that some people would be insecure enough to threaten our lives simply because they do not like the content of a video we neither produced nor endorsed but merely hosted.

[- - e r i k - -]

^ I love how he third partied the opinion, making it clear that he knows deep down what a truly a ridiculous one it is.

[peeb]

Originally Posted by OldManMac 

And there are those who think that terrorists are going to kill them, when in fact they're going to die of any number of causes, many of which are preventable and/or caused by their own stupidity. What these people suffer from is irrational paranoia.

1995-2005.

[Chongo]

Originally Posted by peeb 

1995-2005.

ultra low: rising sea levels 000,000

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Rather like what libs have been doing with Bush for the last eight years.

Get used to it - this is how modern politics is now.

Not anymore, and it's Obama who is lifting us out of this mire.

(And in case you haven't noticed, it's not just "libs" that have seen through Bush's corruption and incompetence.)

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

like the paranoid people at LiveLeak.com - Redefining the Media until they found their cajones

Your straw man attempt doesn't change any facts. You're going to die of anything besides a terrorist attack, despite the fact that America is a sitting target. Don't stop grasping at straws, though. Some people need denial.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Chongo 

ultra low: rising sea levels 000,000

Keep attempting to deflect.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

I am so glad. Good argument, btw. I look at the facts and that's what I see. That's all there is to it.

There are no "facts" for you to look at, but there are a lot of internalized prejudices and conjectures, which you apparently need to prove to the world.

[vmarks]

Barack Hussein Obama is not a 'secret Muslim,' a 'crypto-Muslim,' or any other kind of Muslim.

Although he was born a Muslim and registered as such at his school in Indonesia, I believe everyone should have the right to determine their religious beliefs at any point in life.

Obama says that he is not a Muslim and there is simply no reason for anyone to believe otherwise.

The reasons that the IsraelInsider commentary contains are really no reasons at all.

Reason 1:
"The accumulated research indicates that Obama was in his childhood a devout Muslim, the son of a devout Muslim, the step-son of a devout Muslim and the grandson and namesake ("Hussein") of a devout Muslim. He was registered in school as a Muslim and demonstrated his ability to chant praise to Allah in impressive Arab-accented tones even as an adult. Just as he has not disavowed his "uncle" Jeremiah, neither has he disavowed his Muslim faith that he was born into, raised with, celebrated and never abandoned. He just covered it over with a thin veneer of his own self-styled "Christianity."

False. When he declared that he was a Christian, began practicing as a Christian and gave up practicing as a Muslim, we have to conclude that he is no longer a Muslim. Radical Muslims would call what he's done apostasy.

I don't think he renounced Rev. Wright, although others have read in his speech that he did do so. I do clearly believe that Obama has given up on being a Muslim, while he may have some small affinity for it because of his relationship with it as a youth. There is no equivalence between his response to Rev. Wright and his clear departure from Islam.

2) More evidence that he participated in fundamentalist Islam studies in his youth.
Again: this is not particularly useful today. He's not getting out the prayer mat 5 times a day, he's not reciting Koran in Arabic, he's not a devout fundamentalist Muslim, and he's not a particularly devout Christian, if he attends services so infrequently as to not know the hatred expressed at his church.

3) Classmates of his as a youth say he was devout. Well, good. Here's the neat thing about religious converts - they tend to be more devout, more committed to their new religion of choice than folks who are born into the adopted religion. So, if Barry was a devout Muslim, we can presume that he was probably a vigorously devout Christian when he first converted. Time, marriage, and life seem to have tempered that commitment, but I don't pretend to know that with any certainty.

4) His relatives are Muslim. He campaigned for a relative. That relative believes in exerting Sharia law. As unpleasant as that is to many people, we should all know by now that there's no accounting for family - Billy Carter, Roger Clinton, Neil Bush, Teddy Kennedy.

5) He declared that he likes the Muslim call to worship, and he speaks with a first-class Arabic accent (whatever that means - Egyptian Arabic is different from Iraqi Arabic, is different from Indonesian Arabic.) There's no shame in speaking a language well. The interesting detail here is that he recited the call to worship, which is a declaration of faith. For radical fundamentalist Muslims, that would be a declaration that he's converting to Islam. This is the strongest evidence for people making the 'crypto- secret- Muslim' claim.

However, I think Obama also knows this, and he knows that he can like the sound of the Arabic, without believing in the declaration of faith.

6) Concerning how the Indonesian media covers Obama (using the word for 'claimed' and no real mention of his apostasy, painting him as a Muslim) - Are we really going to trust the Indonesian media on this? Are they better than American reporters? Bias is pervasive, and I fully imagine that they want him to win, and are painting him in what they see as the best light. (populous Muslim country, editors want him to win, therefore make him appealing to the populace with a 'he's one of us!' position.)

7) Obama rewrites his story when convenient.
This much is true. He's the man from change, and he presents himself so that people see what they wish to see in him.

8) "We have many Muslim people in our Church." - So? The Church apparently has a loose membership policy - come to two sunday school classes and pay dues, and you're in! So, the Church gets money (which should come as no surprise.) I imagine that those Muslim members would self-identify as Muslims. I imagine other members of the Church identify as Christian.

Obama identifies as a Christian.

What's really the most maddening to me about these accusations that Barak Hussein Obama is a secret-Muslim is this: There are so many other reasons why Obama is unsuitable to be President, making up this one is unnecessary, and foolish.

[OldManMac]

Of course it's foolish, but when you have nothing of substance, you have to make things up, so the gullible will fall for them.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by vmarks 

Although he was born a Muslim and registered as such at his school in Indonesia, I believe everyone should have the right to determine their religious beliefs at any point in life.

While this is the truth, it's probably fair to say that this will make him a target for radicals (more so than usual). There's that little word "apostasy" that the fundies like to bandy about.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

Not anymore, and it's Obama who is lifting us out of this mire.

(And in case you haven't noticed, it's not just "libs" that have seen through Bush's corruption and incompetence.)

Sorry, no. Those words have more than a little Dem bias in them.

[Kerrigan]

Democrats fantasize about being oppressed by exotic, authoritarian regimes (viz their mid-20th century fantasy about subjecting the US to Stalinism). Consequently, they all wet their panties at the idea of having a new Muslim overlord. This might even be better than sharia law in Wimbledon!

[Doofy]

[red rocket]

Why do I always see Zionist Jews accusing Barry Obama of being a Muslim? What the hell are these guys trying to suggest, Muslims are bad? What is this madness, Antimuslimism, or something? I’d have thought Jews, of all people, would know better than to try to demonise other people on the basis of their ethno‑religious background, that kind of attitude may very well backfire. I mean, think about it: Mr. Hitler demonised the Jews, as a consequence they now have their own little racist nation. Zionist pundits like that psychopathic idiot Reuven Koret are now demonising Barry Obama, a citizen of a different country, because apparently Muslims are wolves, and Christians are sheep. (I wonder where he thinks Jews fit into the animal kingdom?) Kind of ironic, in an Alanis Morrisette sense, anyway.

[OreoCookie]

Not that pseudo-story again, Big Mac.
We get that you dislike Obama, because his middle name is Hussein (which clearly implies he's still a muslim ), but we also get that your fear of him is based on irrational factors.
If you have to resort to that, it just means to me, you haven't found anything substantial you dislike about him. Like vmarks says, there are reasons why you can be upset with Obama (or most other politicians for that matter), be it arbitrariness on issues, lack of experience, that are issues we can rationally discuss. Fear of his middle name or his `secret identity' are not.

[- - e r i k - -]

What red rocket said. Irony.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by red rocket 

Why do I always see Zionist Jews accusing Barry Obama of being a Muslim? What the hell are these guys trying to suggest, Muslims are bad? What is this madness, Antimuslimism, or something? I’d have thought Jews, of all people, would know better than to try to demonise other people on the basis of their ethno‑religious background, that kind of attitude may very well backfire.

No irony there.

islam can very easily be equated with nazism in respect to their shared treatment of Jews. The Jews are simply looking out for themselves.

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

While this is the truth, it's probably fair to say that this will make him a target for radicals (more so than usual). There's that little word "apostasy" that the fundies like to bandy about.

So, you would vote against someone simply because radicals might not like it if he were elected?

[Wiskedjak]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

No irony there.

islam can very easily be equated with nazism in respect to their shared treatment of Jews. The Jews are simply looking out for themselves.

In what way? Even if Islam can be equated with Nazism, how can Obama be equated with Islam without demonizing based solely on the circumstance of his birth?

[Zeeb]

My take on this is that Obama is not currently a Muslim and is not particularly religious in general. The fact that he re-affirmed his given name "Barack" rather than "Barry" probably has more to do with his sense of heritage and identity.

He probably still admires Islam in many respects--so what? It seems that people are making quite an irrational leap to him being a terrorist and spy. I've seen no credible evidence of that. As a matter of fact, the perception that Obama is friendly to Islam and was a Muslim himself would have a great influence on our disastrous relations in the middle east. Leaders of countries in those areas might be more open to a President with such a background.

However, I'd like to hear more concrete strategies to solve domestic concerns from Obama rather than just idealistic speeches. We'll see.