[centerchannel68]

I got a parts express sale flyer today. Ugh. Couldn't resist. And G4ME, yeah, I avoided that cheap 8" sub and passive radiator, as I've been reading the bass is kinda muddy from them. What'd I get instead?

A 10" Dual Voice Coil subwoofer with 6mm of xmax, FS of 25hz.

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...85&ctab=7#Tabs

Only $25 right now. What a steal.

Also snagged a gold plated bi-amp/dvc passive sub amp terminal for $3 and some change...

Kristin is going to be pissed, I'm sure, as I also purchased the iMac today, but she can deal. It's going to be sweet.

I'll post progress pics.

[brassplayersrock²]

have fun

Alex

[jebjeb]

Nice one. Make sure your cabinet is really stiff and well braced. You going ported or sealed or something else?

[grayware]

That's not a subwoofer, this is a subwoofer. Scroll down to see a monstrous bent horn sub.

[ghporter]

You know that your thread title sounds suspiciously like "I can quit any time I want," don't you? I'm looking forward to seeing your work on this.

grayware, OMFG!!! With enough volume (not much) you could vibrate people's socks off with those! Or their fillings. Wow!

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by grayware 

That's not a subwoofer, this is a subwoofer. Scroll down to see a monstrous bent horn sub.

That's also really sloppy bass, probably with a delay. Don't get me wrong, it's probably massive sounding, but it's not very accurate, responsive bass. It'll make a lot of rumble, but that's about it.

[Dark Helmet]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

That's also really sloppy bass, probably with a delay. Don't get me wrong, it's probably massive sounding, but it's not very accurate, responsive bass. It'll make a lot of rumble, but that's about it.

I was going to say the same. It isn't the amount of bass but the accuracy. This thing probably sounds boomy and rattles your teeth more than sounding good.

Even with my sub I have it set to half of what it can do and nobody I know sets theirs any higher than 30-50% either.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Nice one. Make sure your cabinet is really stiff and well braced. You going ported or sealed or something else?

It should be pretty stiff, and I'm definitely going sealed. I'm using 1/2" void free birch plywood, which I found at school, dimensions about 15X15X16 or so. That should give me a QTC of less than .7 (which is the ideal tradeoff between peaky 'boomy' bass and slightly quieter, but more accurate bass), so it'll be a tad 'drier' bass, but it will be a touch more accurate also.

My reasoning for going sealed is that I have the bass shakers on the couch which really get pretty low, but I'm missing some lower end sound frequencies, so this should fill in the gap nicely, and cheaply. My price goal is $50 total. The sub was $25, I spent $3 on a sub plate gold plated connector, and $2.50 on speaker mounting hardware, and 9 in shipping, so I have less than $10 for everything else. Luckily I got the wood free, so I pretty much just need silicone, but I think I might just use glue instead. I'll spend the rest on teh finish... I was thinking about a spray on, rubberized coating. It'd look kinda neat, and further reduce the resonance of the box.

The only thing I'm not sure about is wether to make it downward firing or sideways firing.... I'd prefer downward, but I'm not sure about sag.

I also don't know what I'm going to power it with. I have so much equipment it'd be stupid of me to buy a plate amp, so it's either going to use a 1978 Technics SU-7700 2 channel integrated amp (it's a dual voice coil sub so I'd be using both channels with it, for about 140 watts of power). I also have this very WEIRD integrated amp taht I can't find any information on, which is SHARP brand. It's the normal component width, but it's twice as tall. It has no buttons whatsoever other than a power switch, and the only display are two orange LCD level meters (2 channels, 2 level meters). It's 350 watts, so it has a lot of oomph. Maybe I'll use that to power my subwoofer revision 2, in a year or two...

But yeah, I can stop all this sillyness anytime i want, I swear.

[grayware]

Originally Posted by Dark Helmet 

I was going to say the same. It isn't the amount of bass but the accuracy. This thing probably sounds boomy and rattles your teeth more than sounding good.

Even with my sub I have it set to half of what it can do and nobody I know sets theirs any higher than 30-50% either.

Well yeah, low frequencies aren't directional. A direct radiator gives a lot of chest thud but a horn is far more brutal and provides MUCH lower LF. I used to work as a creative director for EAW (eaw.com) and they made the most amazing bent horn subs -- check out the KF940 or BH822 aka the SuperSub. Several times the engineers would be feeling quite queazy after testing. They also make the benchmark disco sound system, Avalon which has some crazy subs too.

[centerchannel68]

Yeah, but all folded horns are 'sloppy'. It's like a vented sub only worse.

[CMYKid]

Originally Posted by grayware 

Well yeah, low frequencies aren't directional. A direct radiator gives a lot of chest thud but a horn is far more brutal and provides MUCH lower LF. I used to work as a creative director for EAW (eaw.com) and they made the most amazing bent horn subs -- check out the KF940 or BH822 aka the SuperSub. Several times the engineers would be feeling quite queazy after testing. They also make the benchmark disco sound system, Avalon which has some crazy subs too.

I'm not that big a fan of the Avalon systems, mostly die to them being less about fidelity and much more about intense low end, but I have to say I'd've loved to work at EAW. I toured with their gear for years, both KF's and Line Arrays, and I love it.

Of course, mergers with Mackie et al and closing their stateside factories to make everythign in China is gonna change them a bit I'm afraid.

[grayware]

Originally Posted by CMYKid 

I'm not that big a fan of the Avalon systems, mostly die to them being less about fidelity and much more about intense low end, but I have to say I'd've loved to work at EAW. I toured with their gear for years, both KF's and Line Arrays, and I love it.

Of course, mergers with Mackie et al and closing their stateside factories to make everythign in China is gonna change them a bit I'm afraid.

Well, Avalon is a dance club system, aren't they supposed to punish people with 50 Hz? I agree about the DCs not carrying the brand's flat response which was/is universal across the line.

Late 90's at EAW was purely magical. btw, Mr Berger resigned right after the China announcement.

Aw'right, this belongs at PSWeb or the LAB... we now return you to your regularly scheduled Mac forum.

[CMYKid]

yeah, but you can punish the tweakers with low-end and still have clarity in the upper registers..of course finding someone willing to pay for it is different.

I'd been through the factory during the 90s time and it was a really great place, you could just tell that people really liked working there. I wasn't at all sad to see them in bed with RCF since a lot of our touring stuff had RCF drivers in them already, and even Mackie to some extent wasnt bad, but we'll see how the overseas angle works. Quality doesnt have to suffer, hopefully it wont.

Our production company actually ended up suing them because of a fatal design flaw in some of the SB850s, they ended up giving us some kinda money settlement, which was all we'd really wanted, for the time and cost of retrofitting every one of our rigs so the driver surrounds didnt slap the grills and wear out early. We got the factory tour as part of that settlement along wiht a buncha jackets and swagcrap.

[IceEnclosure]

build this:

McIntosh

110 drivers in each speaker, bananas.

[turtle777]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

build this:

McIntosh

110 drivers in each speaker, bananas.

Sweet mother turtle !

-t

[PowerPc = Pwnage]

Man that would blow me away, yeah.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

build this:

McIntosh

110 drivers in each speaker, bananas.

I can't imagine that would sound very good at all. That many speakers= hard to make sound good, plus all the cones are metal, which sound pretty harsh.

[IceEnclosure]

Yeah. McIntosh has a bunch of ass clowns working on their highest end stuff. They should have hired Rob.

I CAN imagine they would sound pretty nice.

[centerchannel68]

Dude, have you HEARD titanium tweeters before? Or any tweeter that uses an alloy or metal as a cone? They sound like poop in my opinion. Way to 'metallic'.

As for McIntosh hiring ass clowns, well, they do still build TUBE AMPS. I think tube amps have their place in music production, where distortion is desirable to make things sound cool, but in the arena of music REPRODUCTION, distortion is the enemy, thus, tube amps are ****ing retarded. Some of the stuff they make is pretty nice, but most of it is overpriced audiophile techy crap, that could easily be outperformed by something you build yourself for a fraction of the price.

[IceEnclosure]

Eh, what do I know. I have Soundsticks and they look like dildos.

[ghporter]

Tube amps are good for "aficionado" music, because they tend to sound "warm" and rich. They do NOT provide purely linear amplification by any means, and that's the point. They emphasize the low-to-mid frequencies in a particular way that these aficionados like. I've always been a semiconductor fan for a number of reasons, and the fact that you typically have enough dynamic range that you CAN make a semiconductor amp pretty linear from 20-20k is just one of them.

But it doesn't matter how linear the amp is (nor how "warm" or otherwise characterized) if the speakers don't reproduce the signal properly. That's where the "art" of speaker design comes in.

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Yeah, but all folded horns are 'sloppy'. It's like a vented sub only worse.

prove it


btw you shouldn't have to worry about sag with only a measly 6mm xmax on a 10" driver, even though parts express doesn't list the compliance I imagine its high enough not to worry about, only where you talking about a 15-18" driver with +20mm xmax with a cms of +.4mm/N.

[pooka]

Originally Posted by IceEnclosure 

They should have hired Rob.

Too late. BMW is currently engaged in negotiations for him to replace Bangle.

[jebjeb]

Rob, happy for you too prove me wrong, but you are really coming across as a "magazine mechanic" or the equivalent in the hi-fi arena. Not even that really as most magazines would disagree with you.

You can't go making statements like "tube amps are ****ing retarded" and that metallic tweeters smell like poop.

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise via the media of a web forum, go to some good hi-fi stores with some of your favorite CD's and listen to a wide range of products before you make statements like this.

I listen to quite a bit of gear myself plus I compliment this with reading reviews from many sources, notably a UK Hi-fi mag called HifiNews. Around a third of their amps in there top 100 bits of hi-fi gear are valve amps. I can't do an exact check on the % of their recommended speakers with metallic tweeters but from looking at the list and the models I know which use metallic tweeters, a large % fit that criteria. Just look at brands like B&W and Focal (they use Beryllium tweeters in the high end stuff).

It is statements like these that make many people overlook the fact that you are quite knowledgeable in these areas and just think that you are speaking rubbish. Help more people realize you are a pretty smart bloke.

[CMYKid]

its probably worth noting that this is all somewhat relative and academic since you can only get so far with a driver from Parts Express.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Tube amps are good for "aficionado" music, because they tend to sound "warm" and rich. They do NOT provide purely linear amplification by any means, and that's the point. They emphasize the low-to-mid frequencies in a particular way that these aficionados like. I've always been a semiconductor fan for a number of reasons, and the fact that you typically have enough dynamic range that you CAN make a semiconductor amp pretty linear from 20-20k is just one of them.

But it doesn't matter how linear the amp is (nor how "warm" or otherwise characterized) if the speakers don't reproduce the signal properly. That's where the "art" of speaker design comes in.

I agree...

But all that 'warm' amplfication rubbishiness COULD be reproduced with a solid state amp.... if the audio engineers wanted to do that. Instead they made a better amp, that amplifies with less error/distortion. I can't stand tube amps for reproduction. Less power, more distortion, less reliability, and a retarded high price for something that could easily be replicated simply by turning down the treble on your amp. Poof. Warm sound.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Rob, happy for you too prove me wrong, but you are really coming across as a "magazine mechanic" or the equivalent in the hi-fi arena. Not even that really as most magazines would disagree with you.

You can't go making statements like "tube amps are ****ing retarded" and that metallic tweeters smell like poop.

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise via the media of a web forum, go to some good hi-fi stores with some of your favorite CD's and listen to a wide range of products before you make statements like this.

I listen to quite a bit of gear myself plus I compliment this with reading reviews from many sources, notably a UK Hi-fi mag called HifiNews. Around a third of their amps in there top 100 bits of hi-fi gear are valve amps. I can't do an exact check on the % of their recommended speakers with metallic tweeters but from looking at the list and the models I know which use metallic tweeters, a large % fit that criteria. Just look at brands like B&W and Focal (they use Beryllium tweeters in the high end stuff).

It is statements like these that make many people overlook the fact that you are quite knowledgeable in these areas and just think that you are speaking rubbish. Help more people realize you are a pretty smart bloke.

Actually, he's more right than most magazines' "expert writers." Those writers buy into the "new, shiny" kind of stuff that manufacturers demonstrate for them. They buy into "new product hype" and are seldom critical of issues that are quantifiable as well as audible. (This is common across the "special interest press.") How much distortion does the "average" tube type (I'm not sure where the two main branches of English diverged on calling vacuum tubes "valves" or "tubes") ampilfier have across the 20Hz to 20kHz range? I don't know either, because you almost always see "weighted" specs for distortion on everything, even solid state amps. And the HiFi magazines are certainly NOT going to go against the current trend and print straightforward, independent test results, because the manufacturers would quit giving them pretty, shiny new stuff.

Frankly, most people can't hear much above about 9500Hz anyway (noise does in our hearing insidiously you know) but those of us with some modicum of hearing can definitely tell the difference between the same sounds reproduced on the same speakers by two different amps-and the major thing you hear from tube amps is somewhat muted highs, emphasized midrange sounds, and slightly soft lows. They ARE great at reproducing very low frequencies while still reproducing midranges well, but they are not going to give you an accurate representation of the original sound on ANY speakers-they simply cannot.

I'll also mention that there's a very strong correlation between "tube amp lovers" and "traditional (50s and 60s era) jazz lovers. Coincidence? I think not. Club jazz from that period is made of the kind of sounds that tube amps are best at.

As for metal cone tweeters sounding tinny, I have to agree with centerchannel68; they ARE tinny because they're designed for a particular kind of sound that goes well with their elastic characteristic. In contrast, the human eardrum has a very different elastic curve, and so unless you're trying to reproduce a very high brass section (Doc Severinson, for example), then you're going to have those cones distort the sound in a way that is not terribly pleasing to the ear. (Metalized carbon cones are a completely different thing, by the way, and they have their own faults-though fewer than purely metallic cones.)

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Rob, happy for you too prove me wrong, but you are really coming across as a "magazine mechanic" or the equivalent in the hi-fi arena. Not even that really as most magazines would disagree with you.

You can't go making statements like "tube amps are ****ing retarded" and that metallic tweeters smell like poop.

I am not going to try and convince you otherwise via the media of a web forum, go to some good hi-fi stores with some of your favorite CD's and listen to a wide range of products before you make statements like this.

I listen to quite a bit of gear myself plus I compliment this with reading reviews from many sources, notably a UK Hi-fi mag called HifiNews. Around a third of their amps in there top 100 bits of hi-fi gear are valve amps. I can't do an exact check on the % of their recommended speakers with metallic tweeters but from looking at the list and the models I know which use metallic tweeters, a large % fit that criteria. Just look at brands like B&W and Focal (they use Beryllium tweeters in the high end stuff).

It is statements like these that make many people overlook the fact that you are quite knowledgeable in these areas and just think that you are speaking rubbish. Help more people realize you are a pretty smart bloke.

Yes, I can.

Tube amps are:

1. Expensive.

2. Not as reliable

3. Not as powerful

4. Not as accurate

as a similar solid-state amp. They produce a warmer sound, and have more distortion, which some people find enjoyable or preferable. I don't see the point. If you want a warmer sound, get a seperate equalizer and adjust the sound to your preferences with a regular solid-state amp, and you'll have more power, more reliability, and more accuracy for a lot less cost. The only reason that these 'high end' audio mags push all this stuff is because that's what sells their magazine: ads for expensive gear.

As for the tweeters, I have not heard a metal or alloy tweeter that sounded 'good' to me, and I have listened to a lot of high end speakers at stores like Flanner's in Milwaukee, University audio in madison, and the happy medium, which also sold a lot of high end stuff in Madison. I'm more of a silk dome tweeter kinda guy, I just think they're a little less harsh in the high frequencies, and that's why even back to when I was 17 years old I purchased orion 6x9 speakers for my car with aimable silk tweeters. I like the sound of them. I do not like the sound of metallic tweeters. It's purely personal preference.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by CMYKid 

its probably worth noting that this is all somewhat relative and academic since you can only get so far with a driver from Parts Express.

What the hell is that supposed to mean? You can get far enough to not notice a difference between a fairly cheap homebuilt speakers and a retardedly expensive super high end store-bought speaker. Check out their 'titanic' series of subwoofers. They're nuts. And fairly affordable. And will kick the snot out of subs costing 2-5x as much.

[gargamel123]

I think some of the stuff you have been building is pretty awesome. Most people will never attempt to build anything but yet can crap on you for doing what they can't or won't do.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

prove it


btw you shouldn't have to worry about sag with only a measly 6mm xmax on a 10" driver, even though parts express doesn't list the compliance I imagine its high enough not to worry about, only where you talking about a 15-18" driver with +20mm xmax with a cms of +.4mm/N.

1. Dude. It's a no-brainer. Folded horns, or transmission line subs, or vented subs, all have the sound bouncing around inside the box or wave guide, and the cabinets are tuned to take advantage of certain frequencies, and make them sound louder. All this bouncing around also causes more delay, and a less linear frequency response.

Hence why in musical applications, sealed subs are usually used, and in home theater applications, vented/ported/passive radiator/folded horn subs are used... they get bigger deeper ultra low bass, but at the cost of sounding a bit messier, and an uneven frequency response. I have those 'shakers' for ultra low bass, so I'm building a sealed sub to fill in the gaps, and despite the 'measly' 6mm of xmas, I'm sure it'll sound pretty decent, especially for under $50. Once I get a house... then I'll probably be building a bigger, badder one that you'll appreciate. This is just practice, and temporary while I live in an apartment.

[OwlBoy]

Yay! A real sub now!. I hope it turns out good

Make sure you give it some of the style you cave that center channel.

-Owl

[centerchannel68]

It'll probably be boring.... I'm making it out of void free birch plywood.... our vacuum forming machine isn't big enough to form something large enough for a sub enclosure... but I'm thinking about coating the thing in a rubberized coating, so if you think that's cool, maybe you'll dig it.

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Hence why in musical applications, sealed subs are usually used

musical applications?

WTF, Selenium on PE a few years ago had alignments using their full line of products, for their sub line they had them in a folded horn.

Any concert i have ever been to had their subs in a folded horn.

so how can folded horns not be used for musical applications?

As for in home theater use, it all depends on the alignment you design, for a ported sub there are a few more aspects you have to look at other then the box volume as in sealed subs.

Granted you can have a box with a high delay and horrible response.

But you can also have a delay around 10ms, (I beg you to tell the difference between a sealed sub and a ported sub with a max delay of 10ms). My tempest that I had in a 9 cuft enclosure had a delay of around 15ms, tuned to around 23Hz and IMO sounded freaking awesome, for both music and HT.

Also just how you mentioned how you can put and EQ on a solid state amp to get the affects of a tube amp, you can also EQ a sub to bring it flatter (look for BFD). Cause no matter how flat your response is on paper your room is gonna mess around with it more then you think.

Also another benefit is a ported sub will stay linear then a sealed sub. As in linear the driver will not bottom out with under X amount of power where you will destroy the sealed. The more that driver moves the greater the chance that the VC and cone is moving around.

I am not balking all your statements its just you take a harsh stance and hold onto that no matter what. Just do more research and get your learn on, and be open to new ideas.

[G4ME]

Also why are you going to go with the BB? is it the cross 9 ply? cause i have seen some knock off stuff in HD that is nothing compared to what I can get from a hardwood yard.

You want a sub that weights more then your mother in law, to lower the resonating freq. Thats why 9-10 people use MDF

Granted BB is great to finish compared to MDF, but 1/2 is pretty measly, just because its free, I would save it for something a bit more respectable and drop 20 bucks and use MDF.

Also one word for enclosure, Pyramid, if i ever snag a rockwell table saw off my i dreams, that will be first on my list.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

musical applications?

Yes. Where accuracy and high fidelity and accuracy are wanted.

WTF, Selenium on PE a few years ago had alignments using their full line of products, for their sub line they had them in a folded horn.

Any concert i have ever been to had their subs in a folded horn.

That's because concerts usually take place in large open areas. In a large open area, you need a LOT of bass, REALLY REALLY loud. Hence, folded horn. It's the way to get a lot of bass without 5 billion watts of power. Vented subs are more efficient, but less accurate.

so how can folded horns not be used for musical applications?

There's a massive difference between 'pro sound', which is heavy duty equipment meant to be taken on the road, blared at really high volumes, and used in HUGE open areas. For high sound quality in a small room, not a large open area, and not at super high volumes, a sealed sub is a better choice when you want sound quality and accuracy.

As for in home theater use, it all depends on the alignment you design, for a ported sub there are a few more aspects you have to look at other then the box volume as in sealed subs.

I know. You can have multiple ports, flared ports, the diameter matters, the length of the port, bla bla bla bla. But that's just it. I am not building a sub for dedicated 'home theater'. I have a lot of the low end covered thanks to the shakers... I'm looking for tight, clean bass that's really accurate to fill in the gap between the shakers, and extend the bass of my speakers, both in movies, and in music. Also, although my speakers are really retardedly nice, they do lack super deep bass. Playing crystal method's 'high roller' was a bit dissapointing, as the bass was really pretty weak... the bass line was very quiet. So, basically, if I'm building one, I want to be able to use it when I'm listening to music, AND use it for movies (quietly...heh). Hence, a sealed sub is the better choice.

But you can also have a delay around 10ms, (I beg you to tell the difference between a sealed sub and a ported sub with a max delay of 10ms). My tempest that I had in a 9 cuft enclosure had a delay of around 15ms, tuned to around 23Hz and IMO sounded freaking awesome, for both music and HT.

Rattling the walls isn't necessarily awesome to everybody. I want clean bass dude, not tons of it. Vented subs, when done right, sound pretty decent, but they are NOT as good as a sealed sub for listening to tunes. Sealed subs are just a better choice for that.

Also another benefit is a ported sub will stay linear then a sealed sub. As in linear the driver will not bottom out with under X amount of power where you will destroy the sealed. The more that driver moves the greater the chance that the VC and cone is moving around.

Actually it's kinda the opposite. Sealed subs don't bottom out or have over excursion problems like vented subs, because the air pressure tries to 'pull' in the sub when it's out, and push it back out when it's going in. This means you're less likely to overdrive it, and at the same time makes it less efficient.

"One last drawback to ported enclosures that needs mentioning, is cone excursion. At frequencies above the port tuning frequency, cone excursion will be very well controlled, and will actually be lower than that of a sealed enclosure, but at frequencies below the port tuning, as there is no internal box pressure to control excursion, and the result is that the sub can easily reach it’s excursion limits with very little power. "

from How to buy a Subwoofer

I am not balking all your statements its just you take a harsh stance and hold onto that no matter what. Just do more research and get your learn on, and be open to new ideas.

Dude. I think you need to get your learn on.

Sealed vs. Ported Enclosures | Klaus Audio

"Personal preference and size limitations will both play a role in the decision between sealed or ported enclosures. If you have the room, and you want to get loud, go with a ported box. If you're limited on space or are looking for the best sound quality possible, it would generally be best to go with a sealed box."

eBay Guides - Ported vs Sealed Box Enclosure

" Sealed enclosures produce tight, accurate bass and have a flat frequency response curve. They are the enclosure of choice when quality is the ultimate goal of the system set up. Ported enclosures create louder bass than sealed enclosures, and allow you to tune the box to a specific frequency to determine how the bass will sound. However, if your goal is to get loud bass and you don't care too much about the sound quality, a ported box, tuned high, with a large amount of port area is the way to go."

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=694997

"In my personal OPINION.

I prefer vented enclosures for HT applications. In my opinion, the resonance that the port/vent makes at it's tuning frequency is slightly distracing when listening to music with very fast bass passages. It might be different if I have ever listened to one of the giant sonotubes with a very low resonant frequency, but from what I have listened to in the form of commercial ported subs, I find them more suited for HT. I don't like regular sealed subs unless I am listening to music."

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

Also why are you going to go with the BB? is it the cross 9 ply? cause i have seen some knock off stuff in HD that is nothing compared to what I can get from a hardwood yard.

You want a sub that weights more then your mother in law, to lower the resonating freq. Thats why 9-10 people use MDF

Granted BB is great to finish compared to MDF, but 1/2 is pretty measly, just because its free, I would save it for something a bit more respectable and drop 20 bucks and use MDF.

Also one word for enclosure, Pyramid, if i ever snag a rockwell table saw off my i dreams, that will be first on my list.

Free. I'm building this for under $50. It's not going to be a monster, just a filler in between the shakers and the speakers. Again, I get all your points, and maybe someday when I have a house, I'll either build a badass TL sub or a sonotube or something.

[jebjeb]

I guess we are probably seeing the general difference between the "British" sound and "American" sound. This is generally thought to be the Brits like things a bit warmer whilst the Americans like things pretty... hard/straight up. Thats the way most people consider it over here, including US writer Ken Kessler.

I am not a big fan of pure valve/tube amps myself due to some of the points Rob and Glen made but that doesn't mean they should be written off. What I do like are the hybrids that we are seeing these days. Guys like Musical Fidelity, Pathos and Unison are bringing out some great products with valve front-ends and solid state power amps. MF is doing this with its DACs as well. They sound superb plus have heaps of power to back it up.

The point I am trying to get across is one can not just write a product off because it has a specific component in it, like a metal dome tweeter. Some of the very best speakers available at the moment, in huge numbers of peoples opinions, have metal tweeters. It is there implementation, crossovers, cabinet design etc that help to influence their sound.

But I guess the big thing that this thread shows us is that we all have our own idea of great sound. As long as we don't just automatically trash something because of a small part of it without even listening to it.

[IceEnclosure]

Originally Posted by CMYKid 

its probably worth noting that this is all somewhat relative and academic since you can only get so far with a driver from Parts Express.

that sh*t made me laugh but I'm drunk.


Rob, do your thing man! I'd cover the thing in padding and pleather maybe, like an ottoman. Sit your girl on it. Whatever.

I had some crazy ass Orion subs once, 10", two of 'em, dual voice coil, crazy ohmagez, parallel, series, whatever the **** kind of wiring holy hell that **** blazed the ladies outta their pantiez!!!

but really, I also had a set of kicker 15" (two of 'em) in my blazer(SUV) that (near as I can gather) cracked my windshield one evening back in tha day. True(OLD) School Punch amp wired up all crazy to some crazy Kicker 15's (I know I already said that).

We built mad boxes for all sorts of vehicles. MDF all teh way son dog. I'm a sealed box fan.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

The point I am trying to get across is one can not just write a product off because it has a specific component in it, like a metal dome tweeter. Some of the very best speakers available at the moment, in huge numbers of peoples opinions, have metal tweeters. It is there implementation, crossovers, cabinet design etc that help to influence their sound.

I'm not trashing vented subs... they're just not what I want. If I only watched movies, and never listened to music, I'd definitely build a vented sub... but with music, i'm afraid of the dreaded 'port noise'. But right now, I want a sub to fill in the gap between my speakers and my shakers, and I live in a pretty small apartment, so a large vented sub would be a MONSTER in here, especially considering room gain.

Also, as to the metal tweeters, I've done some reading to try to back up what I say about the harshness of metal tweeters, and basically the metal tweeters resonate at certain frequencies, so they're kinda of 'peaky'... if you measured them in a signal sweep, it'd be hopping up and down all over the top end. Silk dome tweeters, on the other hand, might not be quite as loud, but they generally have a much smoother response.... all that technical crap equates to maybe the reason why I prefer silk dome tweeters or cloth tweeters instead of metal ones.

[jebjeb]

Right with you on the vented subs, Rob. They can sound good but it requires a lot more work and effort to do compared to a sealed sub. I have a sealed REL Stampede which is lovely. I am thinking of building a ported sub to augument it for the movie stuff though!

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Actually it's kinda the opposite. Sealed subs don't bottom out or have over excursion problems like vented subs, because the air pressure tries to 'pull' in the sub when it's out, and push it back out when it's going in. This means you're less likely to overdrive it, and at the same time makes it less efficient.

Bull

the excursion of a sealed sub is linear, meaning it gos up as straight line, the lower freq you want to reproduce the more excursion the driver has no matter how tight and sealed you sub is, trust me i know. If you want to learn for your self, model a sealed sub and throw max power at it you will see the excusion is linear.

Where as a port, you are using the moving air to control cone movement, thus resisting movement of the cone. At the tuning freq the cone is actually moving less then at freqs higher, cause the movement of air is resisting the cone. At freq lower then the tuning freq the excursion will start to go up dramaticly, thats why its nice to tune it low so that you don't have to worry about those problems.

As for listening to high roller, you are going to need to tune it pretty ****ing low, look at a waterfall plot of that song, another is clint eastwood, there is an insaine amount of bass that you will be missing if you want to "accuratly" reproduce the song.

As for going off on the tangent about folded horns and musical applications, its just another example as you making broad false staments. I agree that many pleople don't have the room for a proper folde horn and pro sound gear, but by no means should they not be used for musical applications

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

I'm not trashing vented subs... they're just not what I want. If I only watched movies, and never listened to music, I'd definitely build a vented sub... but with music, i'm afraid of the dreaded 'port noise'. But right now, I want a sub to fill in the gap between my speakers and my shakers, and I live in a pretty small apartment, so a large vented sub would be a MONSTER in here, especially considering room gain.

if you had a few more bucks then i would recommend snaggind a nice PR then, all the bennis of a vented enclosure no real draw backs. but if you are trying to keep it in under 50 i hear your complaints.

and you can also plot air speed in the ports to see if your design to see how much port noise plays into it. If you do it right you will hardly notice.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by jebjeb 

Right with you on the vented subs, Rob. They can sound good but it requires a lot more work and effort to do compared to a sealed sub. I have a sealed REL Stampede which is lovely. I am thinking of building a ported sub to augument it for the movie stuff though!

Augment it with these instead:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=299-028



It'll make your sub seem huge, so I've heard, even at low volumes, which is exactly what I was going for when I bought them. They're nice, but the whole reason I'm building this sub is just to fill in the gap between them and the surrounds.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

Bull

the excursion of a sealed sub is linear, meaning it gos up as straight line, the lower freq you want to reproduce the more excursion the driver has no matter how tight and sealed you sub is, trust me i know. If you want to learn for your self, model a sealed sub and throw max power at it you will see the excusion is linear.

Where as a port, you are using the moving air to control cone movement, thus resisting movement of the cone. At the tuning freq the cone is actually moving less then at freqs higher, cause the movement of air is resisting the cone. At freq lower then the tuning freq the excursion will start to go up dramaticly, thats why its nice to tune it low so that you don't have to worry about those problems.

As for listening to high roller, you are going to need to tune it pretty ****ing low, look at a waterfall plot of that song, another is clint eastwood, there is an insaine amount of bass that you will be missing if you want to "accuratly" reproduce the song.

As for going off on the tangent about folded horns and musical applications, its just another example as you making broad false staments. I agree that many pleople don't have the room for a proper folde horn and pro sound gear, but by no means should they not be used for musical applications

Exactly. Sealed= linear excursion= more accurate.

Which is why I'm building one. And yeah, it'll be tuned pretty low... but again, I'm not building the 'ultimate sub' here, I'm building a really nice sub for $50.

[centerchannel68]

Originally Posted by G4ME 

if you had a few more bucks then i would recommend snaggind a nice PR then, all the bennis of a vented enclosure no real draw backs. but if you are trying to keep it in under 50 i hear your complaints.

and you can also plot air speed in the ports to see if your design to see how much port noise plays into it. If you do it right you will hardly notice.

Yeah... I was all about PR for a while... but... I talked to a friend who builds a lot of speakers, and he built a pretty ridiculous PR with 2 12s, 1" thick MDF everywhere, tons of bracing, tuned it properly, and it sounded HUGE, but it wasn't quite as good for music as a sealed sub. More of a retarded amount of bass out of a fairly small enclosure than anything else.

Like I said, maybe the next one will be ported.... I think after I finish this one I'm actually building a couple more kinda like it, for some friends.

[G4ME]

Originally Posted by centerchannel68 

Exactly. Sealed= linear excursion= more accurate.

Don't ****ing agree with me.

I wasn't commenting on the point about linear excursion as being more accurate, I was commenting that you have to worry about over driving a sealed sub more then a ported sub.

You are spouting false information about ported subs having problems with bottoming out. It's actually sealed subs you have to worry about over driving the driver, as it is a first order system, the lower you go, you will bottom it out, if you don't believe me, ****ing simulate it.

Where as a ported system is a 4th order systen and the port corrects for over excursion at the tuning frequency which means the driver is moving a fraction compared to sealed sub at the same freq. Going on what I stated above, the ported system with have a more linear excusion at tuning compared to the sealed sub.

Remeber the one thing that you seem be focusing on is group delay, which i am not talking about here.

As for linear, The more that driver moves the more it is becoming nolinear. Look at Pro drivers, they have amazing sound reproduction becuase they don't need to move as much.

Just think of it as this: At your tuning freq your driver is eating up all that massive 6mm xmax, it is moving in and out, the magnetic field (and a little part of the suspention) keeps the voice coil motion linear, it is strongest when the cone is stationary right? (the coil is in the middle of the B field) The B field falls off exponentially as you move away from the magnet.

So wouldn't logic say that the further the VC is out side of the max B field, the more non linear the driver motion will be. So thus the bestest linear driver in the world is on that moves the smallest. Remember this is about linearity not about group delay, which affects ported subs more then sealed.

This is why you see double spyders on those high end drivers, they resist the non linear motion when you are really moving ther driver.

[brassplayersrock²]

*takes coffee away* too much coffee for that one ^

[Doofy]

I remember the days when real men built real subwoofers with four 18"ers...

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[centerchannel68]

And those men probably lived in houses, not apartments.