[Brass]

Originally Posted by goMac

MOS Computer (later Commodore) in 1975?

nice!

There were digital cameras long before the QuickTake. Apple was just moving into a niche market and expanding it (as they could with the tablet PC?).

u-huh... which one(s)? I specifically mentioned consumer digital cameras. Until the Quicktake was released, digital cameras where huge things, priced way beyond the consumer market.

This was never on the original list. This would be an example of Apple taking a niche and innovating in it.

Taking a niche? The GUI? Who's niche? The niche didn't exist until Apple got the GUI to work and sold it in the Macintosh.

You might be right on this one. Again though, this is taking a niche product and innovating, as Apple could with the tablet PC.



Hmmm. Pick and choose any of the handhelds that shipped with Windows for Pin.

Any examples? I don't know of any. Were they around before 1993?

In any case, I rest my case. I was certainly wrong on the first desktop computer item, and you have admited to Apple probably being first in at least one other segment. Therefore my original point stands, and your statement, "Apple has never created a new product space. Instead, they evolve existing products" doesn't quite hold.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by goMac

All existed as niche markets before Apple entered.

You're only proving my point.

Apple wasn't the first consumer desktop computer.

Apple created a new market and at once had a monopoly, they got forced into a niche.

Apple wasn't the first laser printer.

Yup. FAILED AND CANCELED

Apple wasn't the first with trackpads on laptops.

I remember them inventing it. At any rate how is a trackpad a niche product?

Apple wasn't the first with a PDA.

Yup. FAILED AND CANCELED

Apple wasn't the first consumer digital camera.

Yup. FAILED AND CANCELED

Apples inkjets:
FAILED AND CANCELED

Apples "niche" G4 Cube (another niche in a niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

Duo Laptops (niche in a niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

eMate (Niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

Apple Scanner
FAILED AND CANCELED

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Brass

nice!

u-huh... which one(s)? I specifically mentioned consumer digital cameras. Until the Quicktake was released, digital cameras where huge things, priced way beyond the consumer market.

This is my point. Currently tablet PC's are bulky, priced higher, and not entirely normal in the consumer market. Apple's thing is taking devices like this and making them better for consumers.

Originally Posted by Brass

Taking a niche? The GUI? Who's niche? The niche didn't exist until Apple got the GUI to work and sold it in the Macintosh.

Sure it did. Apple was improving the niche of personal computers and bringing it mass market.

Originally Posted by Brass

Any examples? I don't know of any

Non Windows Based:
Sony PalmTop - 1990 (also understood Japanese)
HP 95LX
Poqet PC
Psion Series 3
Amstrad Pen Pad

Windows based:
GRID PalmPad
Momenta Pentop

The early Newtons were based on the Sony PalmTop when it was found the PalmTop used a 68000 processor.

[Brass]

...and depending on your definition, I guess you could say that Apple invented the tablet PC too (ie, the Newton was a fully programmable computer with a touch screen and stylus - just didn't run windows). But that's stretching it a little.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Apples inkjets:
FAILED AND CANCELED

Apples "niche" G4 Cube (another niche in a niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

Duo Laptops (niche in a niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

eMate (Niche)
FAILED AND CANCELED

Apple Scanner
FAILED AND CANCELED

Macintosh... not failed and canceled?

iPod... not failed and canceled?

The problem with most of the devices you listed are that Apple didn't innovate on any of them. Heck, half of them are repackaged versions of other people's devices.

Apple never had a monopoly on the personal computer market. At best, %30. They just get the distinction of being the only one to survive the PC. That doesn't make them a monopoly.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Brass

...and depending on your definition, I guess you could say that Apple invented the tablet PC too (ie, the Newton was a fully programmable computer with a touch screen and stylus - just didn't run windows). But that's stretching it a little.

But as I noted, the Newton was based on the Sony PalmTop.

[Severed Hand of Skywalker]

Originally Posted by goMac

Macintosh... not failed and canceled?

iPod... not failed and canceled?

The problem with most of the devices you listed are that Apple didn't innovate on any of them. Heck, half of them are repackaged versions of other people's devices.

Apple never had a monopoly on the personal computer market. At best, %30. They just get the distinction of being the only one to survive the PC. That doesn't make them a monopoly.

Actually the Mac is a failure. They have what 5% of the market when THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A NICHE.

But even that I'll give you. So you got TWO products in 20 years and I listed over 5 failures and can list many more.

[slugslugslug]

I should point out that making the iPod wasn't the kind of niche-within-a-niche risk-taking that IBMW (is he really SWG or someone else who took a Star Wars name?) says won't happen. Yes, mp3 players existed and had a teensy market, but they were a natural candidate to be The Next Walkman. So Apple's entering that space wasn't a matter of trying to compete in a tiny niche, but rather of seizing the opportunity in what was obviously going to become a huge market sooner or later.

UMPCs don't have that feeling about them, of being the natural replacement for desktops or laptops. For some time to come, they'll probably be extra toys for people who already have a full-featured computer. As such, they're not destined to become big sellers, like the digital audio player done right was.

[greenamp]

This thread has turned in a ginormous massive quote fest.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by slugslugslug

UMPCs don't have that feeling about them, of being the natural replacement for desktops or laptops. For some time to come, they'll probably be extra toys for people who already have a full-featured computer. As such, they're not destined to become big sellers, like the digital audio player done right was.

I think Microsoft UMPC's won't catch on. However, laptops are too bulky for real mobile use. When was the last time you flipped out your laptop for just a quick note? "Oh one second here... I have to get my laptop out, awkwardly open it... find a flat surface to type on..."

Microsoft has the right idea. Implementation is another thing, but something that Apple is good at.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Actually the Mac is a failure. They have what 5% of the market when THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A NICHE.

I think only you, half of the Microsoft campus, and Dvorak share that view.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Microsoft UMPC's won't catch on. However, laptops are too bulky for real mobile use. When was the last time you flipped out your laptop for just a quick note? "Oh one second here... I have to get my laptop out, awkwardly open it... find a flat surface to type on..."

Microsoft has the right idea. Implementation is another thing, but something that Apple is good at.

If all people want to do is take quick notes what is wrong with a PDA or notepad.

You're saying a Laptop is too much, a PDA too little but a UMPC is juuuuuuuust right?

[slugslugslug]

Originally Posted by goMac

I think Microsoft UMPC's won't catch on.

Right. And I think Apple won't bother making one unless the Windows ones catch on big-time (I think SWG agrees, but don't wanna put words in his mouth). Unless they can somehow figure out a way to make above-average profit margins at low volumes with a relatively low retail price.

They've almost certainly been looking into touchscreen interfaces, though, but it seems more likely to me that they'd use it for fullsize laptops

However, laptops are too bulky for real mobile use. When was the last time you flipped out your laptop for just a quick note?

I'm with the Wookiee on this one. If you have a UMPC, there'll still be more convenient things to write a quick note on. A UMPC beats a laptop for watching movies on the bus, for the kinds of things doctors use Tablet PCs for, and for students whose books are heavy enough as it is. The market just isn't anywhere near as big as that for laptops, until the price drops to $500 for a mid-range model.

And this is coming from someone who desperately wants an ultramobile Mac.

[hart]

now that I think about it, I've never, ever seen a tablet PC in use. I live in a neighborhood with a lot of people working in cafes and places like that. Never seen one. None of our doctors use them either. Or PDAs for that matter. Admittedly a small sample but you'd think I would have seen ONE if they're getting popular.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker

Actually the Mac is a failure. They have what 5% of the market when THEY DON'T WANT TO BE A NICHE.

But even that I'll give you. So you got TWO products in 20 years and I listed over 5 failures and can list many more.

I tend to disagree. Apple is not aiming at taking over the world. Their aim has been to create good appealing products, and they have been successful generally with their products, especially with the Macintosh. The points you raised earlier are still good however, but I believe it was often due to bad management of the products.

This thread leads to the following questions:

What type of computing products are required for the home, versus mobile computing products? Form factors, mass, autonomy, environment of use, likely clientele, and capability?

As some pointed out, PC tablet seem to be a good market for doctors; they don't require high screen definition, and battery life does not have to be long, as they do not travel far from a recharge station (and batteries are easy to get).

A portable computer for a student and one for a business person share similar characteristics, but costs have to be different (and therefore, capabilities will differ).

Business people travelling may have different requirements from a mother going shopping.
Crunching numbers at the office is not equivalent to a salesman making a simple presentation.

Those people who have a ongoing need for portable computing are probably an exceptional clientele (computer geeks for instance) so that market may not be important enough.

The day we will have true computing with true, full computing capability may be near, but probably not exploitable before some time.

So the Origami answers the needs of which market exactly?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

If all people want to do is take quick notes what is wrong with a PDA or notepad.

You're saying a Laptop is too much, a PDA too little but a UMPC is juuuuuuuust right?

How many PDA's have you actually owned? Every Windows Mobile/Palm PDA I've owned was only good for scheduling appointments and never taking notes.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by goMac

How many PDA's have you actually owned?

Original Newton, Newton 130, Newton 2000 (still have it), Palm zire 71. In other words I have been using them since 1993.

Got rid of the palm because it was useless after I got a good cellphone. Kept the newton as it is the best OS I have ever used but the hardware was too damn big (it is smaller than UMPC).

You?


Firstly look at the size of this monster:




Then look at the UI on this beast. It is slow and unresponsive. Heck it even has a cursor on screen from some damn reason.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzRZM...zmodo%2Ecom%2F

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

I tend to disagree. Apple is not aiming at taking over the world. Their aim has been to create good appealing products, and they have been successful generally with their products, especially with the Macintosh. The points you raised earlier are still good however, but I believe it was often due to bad management of the products.

So your saying Apple is happy with 5% marketshare? If so they should stop trying so hard and boasting how many people convert from PC.

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

So your saying Apple is happy with 5% marketshare? If so they should stop trying so hard and boasting how many people convert from PC.

You have a point, because I failed to explain myself clearly. I meant the long term goal may be to take over the world, but the short term one is likely to build on some of its distinctiveness, which is for the most part about quality of its product, design, etc.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

but the short term one is likely to build on some of its distinctiveness, which is for the most part about quality of its product, design, etc.

They haven't been doing that since DAY ONE?!

Common, Apple has always been about those things and if Apple had 99% marketshare steve jobs would be the happiest person in the world.

What company says "I want 5% market-share but want to be distinct. Keep the billions for yourself thank you."

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

They haven't been doing that since DAY ONE?!

Common, Apple has always been about those things and if Apple had 99% marketshare steve jobs would be the happiest person in the world.

What company says "I want 5% market-share but want to be distinct. Keep the billions for yourself thank you."

There no such things as a "company saying something".

Well, if it were a total failure, they would not be where they are today, agreed?

And there are companies where the CEO is not interested in taking over the world. They basically are looking for some growth, and not necessarily become the monster M$ has become.

I have worked for big companies not interested in going over a certain percentage of growth. Maybe in your mind it makes no sense, but some people are just not thinking that way, and that does not make them a failure.

The fact that Apple has been able to continue innovate and has a regular clientele already is a success.

But we can agree to disagree on that if that's your choice.

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Originally Posted by Pendergast

There no such things as a "company saying something".

Well, if it were a total failure, they would not be where they are today, agreed?

But we can agree to disagree on that if that's your choice.

Uh, I never said Apple was a total failure

I said they started off with a huge marketshare and got forced into a niche unwillingly.

"There are a number of reasons why Microsoft's Origami will flop, not the least being there is no market for it."
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759%20,1935930,00.asp

[Pendergast]

Originally Posted by I Bent My Wookiee

Uh, I never said Apple was a total failure

Yeah.. I got lost with the StarWarsphiles fauna that spread exponentially around here. Sorry.

I said they started off with a huge marketshare and got forced into a niche unwillingly.

"There are a number of reasons why Microsoft's Origami will flop, not the least being there is no market for it."
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759%20,1935930,00.asp

[I Bent My Wookiee]

Ultramobile PC: Where's Its Niche?
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,1935874,00.asp