[- - e r i k - -]

1) It doesn't interact with iTunes anymore. You can be listening to something in iTunes and it shuts it off when entering FrontRow.

2) It stops the music once you exit the music section. WTF? How am I supposed to watch slideshows with music now? Completely useless! What if I were listening to a podcast and had to exit FR to check my e-mails? Interruptions. FrontRow is now almost useless for photos and music.

3) BUG: Front Row now displays the Japanese top 20 lists? Huh? Where does it get that information? My iTunes Music store in iTunes is set to Australia.

4) Zoom animation is replaced with a boring fade. Was it useless eye-candy to have it zoom out? Maybe, but it did floor everyone who ever saw it. Plus Time-machine has a cool transition animation now too.

5) The back and forward scrubbing mechanics have been changed. Previously it skipped 30 seconds forward and five seconds back, now it skips to set points based on a percentage it seems. Usually way too much, plus the points are the same backwards and forwards, making scrubbing to the point you want much harder. The old way was also perfect for skipping the intros to TV-shows, not so anymore.

6) Movie files not in iTunes does not get the resume feature. No biggie, and it wasn't in the previous FR but it would have been nice.

7) The new progress bar is too small and too ugly. Looks like some "leet" Linux media center skin. Blech. Much harder to view from the couch, which is what FR is for. Right?

8) Does the screensaver setting do anything?

On the plus side everything else is pretty much an improvement. I like the cover-parade even. And yay for scrolling titles!

[voodoo]

It should be very similar to using Apple TV, since that's basically what it is now.

V

[0157988944]

sounds like pretty much the entire thing is dead.

[- - e r i k - -]

I know that. I'm just saying that these are very big annoyances in a desktop media system.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

I know that. I'm just saying that these are very big annoyances in a desktop media system.

Mmmhmm. I agree.

Apple tends to blunder things every now and then. The annoying thing is that it can take Apple three thousand years to fix elementary stupidity.

Here's hoping for an exception to the rule and a nicer FrontRow in 10.5.1

V

[0157988944]

MUCH Nicer. I go into Front Row almost exclusively WHILE iTunes music is playing. Hopefully by the time I get Leopard (Mid-November) these things will be ironed out. It seems they took out a whole lot of the nice things, in addition to this, QuickTime movies no longer play on the dock, The buttons in the Finder are all spaced weird as crap, Stacks don't move with a magnified dock, Stacks suck when you have more than 10 things, etc.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

MUCH Nicer. I go into Front Row almost exclusively WHILE iTunes music is playing. Hopefully by the time I get Leopard (Mid-November) these things will be ironed out. It seems they took out a whole lot of the nice things, in addition to this, QuickTime movies no longer play on the dock, The buttons in the Finder are all spaced weird as crap, Stacks don't move with a magnified dock, Stacks suck when you have more than 10 things, etc.

Yeah...Leopard wasn't quite ready to ship...but a whole lot of people wanted to see it ship and I told a lot of people they'd be disappointed if it *did* ship in October...and they are disappointed and look all surprised about it.

Anyways...the QuickTime movies not playing in the Dock isn't a huge thing. It was mostly a tech demo that Steve enjoyed showing to crowds. It was a hack. No other apps had live-updates of their windows in the Dock and I don't think anyone actually watched QT movies in the Dock...not seriously at least. In most cases the Dock is way too small to see anything playing in a minimized QT window.

[.Neo]

1) In return Front Row gained a tremendous speed boost over it's predecessor. Front Row on Tiger was nothing but a cheap and slow front-end that required iTunes and iPhoto to run in the background. Front Row 2 is a real stand-alone application capable of reading the iTunes/iPhoto libraries.

1+2) I'm using it just fine for music thank you. And I actually think it's logical music stops playing when you exit Front Row. You don't hear iTunes continue its playback after you quit it either. Nor does iTunes resume a song you were previously playing with - let's say - QuickTime.

3) Nope, that doesn't work properly here either.

4) Non-issue really.

5) If you press and hold the >>| button the playback will fast forward. Press and hold it again and the speed will increase. Works like a charm.

6) Yup too bad they didn't include that.

7) I think the new Music appearance looks really slick and professional. Much better than the feakin' huge and bulky elements of Front Row in Tiger. I'm glad they got rid of that ugly background gradient as well. Apple really improved the overal appearance.

8) Not over here. Real shame they didn't include that cool screen saver of the Apple TV.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

The buttons in the Finder are all spaced weird as crap

Why do you find it even remotely worth to complain about that? The toolbar buttons are just as customisable as they were in 10.3 Panther and 10.4 Tiger.

Don't like it? Take 20 seconds tops of your time to rearrange them and get rid of the spaces.

[0157988944]

I thought it was default, if you had seen my next post

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

1+2) I'm using it just fine for music thank you. And I actually think it's logical music stops playing when you exit Front Row. You don't hear iTunes continue its playback after you quit it either. Nor does iTunes resume a song you were previously playing with - let's say - QuickTime.

Quicktime and iTunes aren't fullscreen apps that prevent you from doing anything else. Do you like sitting in front of Front Row and listening to music? Me, I prefer to choose my music, exit, and start working while I listen. The only thing I stay in Front Row to watch is video content.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Quicktime and iTunes aren't fullscreen apps that prevent you from doing anything else. Do you like sitting in front of Front Row and listening to music? Me, I prefer to choose my music, exit, and start working while I listen. The only thing I stay in Front Row to watch is video content.

Just a question...

You actually prefer using Front Row over iTunes to choose your music? I understand Front Row can be a one shop stop for all your media needs but I don't understand using the inferior music-searching tool for your music needs.

Front Row is predominantly a UI for people that want to access their media from a distance. If you're using it while sitting in front of the computer, it's the equivalent of using Excel as a database...it'll work but it's not efficient. Faulting the software because it doesn't do something it's not designed to do is a bit too much.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

I thought it was default, if you had seen my next post

It looks like that by default yes, but who cares if you can change it with a few clicks? Someone else told you this in another thread as well.

Quicktime and iTunes aren't fullscreen apps that prevent you from doing anything else. Do you like sitting in front of Front Row and listening to music? Me, I prefer to choose my music, exit, and start working while I listen. The only thing I stay in Front Row to watch is video content.

I think it's a complete waste of time to select my music in Front Row if I can do the same thing in iTunes, quicker, and then to exit Front Row.

I use Front Row for music playback when studying (as in reading a book) or when doing something else around the house, obviously not when sitting behind my computer. No offence, but what kind of stupid question is that?

[0157988944]

Horesepoo: No, but when I do, I don't expect the music to end when I leave.

But what can you do with Front Row that you can't with iTunes or iPhoto? Nothing. Now it's really more worthless than before.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

But what can you do with Front Row that you can't with iTunes or iPhoto? Nothing. Now it's really more worthless than before.

Front Row features an interface that can be fully controlled by using the Apple Remote. That's its only real purpose. It's not there to compete with iTunes, iPhoto, QuickTime Player or DVD Player.

I'm a bit surprised by the fact you don't seem to realize that.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by adamfishercox 

Horesepoo: No, but when I do, I don't expect the music to end when I leave.

But what can you do with Front Row that you can't with iTunes or iPhoto? Nothing. Now it's really more worthless than before.

I somewhat agree that it is stupid that the music ends when Front Row is dismissed but this is also a matter of opinion (one that I share entirely but with the exception that I understand why it was designed to stop playing the music). You can also look at it another way: it's completely consistent with the way it handles every media. When you exit Front Row while watching a video, it doesn't keep playing the video in QuickTime Player or DVD Player. When you're done viewing pictures in Front Row, it doesn't show these pictures in iPhoto.

If iTunes isn't launched...what is Front Row supposed to do? Launch iTunes to keep playing your song? And if so, why should it do this for music specifically and not video or photos?

It's all about consistency.

Leopard has done an excellent job in most cases in bringing consistency to the user experience...unfortunately, some people have gotten used to the inconsistent behaviors that existed in previous OS X versions and are outraged with the changes...it's understandable to be angry that these behaviors have changed but it's a bit irrational to not accept why the changes were made.

[.Neo]

Horsepoo!!!: Yup.

Probably the only reason why Front Row on Tiger continued music playback in iTunes after you return to the Desktop is because it actually needed iTunes to run in the background. Front Row 2 is a stand-alone application.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Horsepoo!!!: Yup.

Probably the only reason why Front Row on Tiger continued music playback in iTunes after you return to the Desktop is because it actually needed iTunes to run in the background. Front Row 2 is a stand-alone application.

Exactly.

And there's lots of these little changes that people can't seem to accept. One that comes into my mind right now is how some people call the new folder icons 'bland' and 'unrecognizable'. But that's what makes them *very* recognizable...instead of being turquoise and ultra-flashy and blending in with colorful application icons or document icons, they're plain looking and have no colorful badges on them that would otherwise make them hard to find in a list of applications and documents.

Now it's easy to see the difference between apps/docs vs folders. Apple also recognized shapes are most rapidly recognizable (color also but shapes are more universally recognizable since some people have color-vision impairments.)

An article on indiehig incorrectly analyses how shapes are recognized and treats the *entire* icon as a shape concluding that the old icons were much more recognizable. Link: IndieHIG � Blog Archive � Fix the Leopard Folders (FTLF or FTFLF)

The conclusion is incorrect. You can't treat the entire icon as a shape. If we did, we could conclude that Safari is garbage because it puts shapes within a rounded-rect button which means users would only rapidly see the button shape. This would be untrue.

The same applies to folders...the folder icon is like the button, but the shape within is what is recognizable. So in Leopard we have easily recognizable silhouette watermarks on folders in the home folder while keeping a very subdued and monochrome look so that they aren't easily lost amongst more colorful icons.

Apple rarely just randomly do things. They're not doing things to purposefully piss people off.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Apple rarely just randomly do things.

Who are you kidding?

V

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Who are you kidding?

V

It's not my fault if you're incapable of understanding the motives behind certain moves.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

It's not my fault if you're incapable of understanding the motives behind certain moves.

Nor is it my fault you are a blatant Apple apologist.

V

[bishopazrael]

I've been on Leopard for about 6 days now. I gotta say, I'm glad I didn't pay for it. This is exactly why I advocate obtaining things first for demo's. I'm not really thrilled with it's performance on my 15" mbp. I've got 2gb of RAM, and I still sometimes see hang ups. The UI.... ugh I'm very split. It's nice, but its very.... blah. I'm going back to Tiger next week. I'm just not that impressed. And the speed? It's like that little old lady from the old Wendy's hamburgers.

Where's the speed?

I know some folks here hate guys like me who DL first. But you know what.. if I had bought Leopard first... god I'd be soooooo pissed off right now. I just don't see the value this time around for the "average" home user.

[besson3c]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Anyways...the QuickTime movies not playing in the Dock isn't a huge thing. It was mostly a tech demo that Steve enjoyed showing to crowds. It was a hack. No other apps had live-updates of their windows in the Dock and I don't think anyone actually watched QT movies in the Dock...not seriously at least. In most cases the Dock is way too small to see anything playing in a minimized QT window.

I agree, I can't think of a single source of useful functionality this "feature" ever provided.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Nor is it my fault you are a blatant Apple apologist.

V

Sure everyone who doesn't jump on the whine, moan and bitch about Mac OS X Leopard bandwagon is an Apple apologist. Why not.

We've even come to the point where members complain about the default way Apple has set up the Finder toolbar, although it's completely customizable. Gotta love that.

[Spirit_VW]

Originally Posted by bishopazrael 

I've been on Leopard for about 6 days now. I gotta say, I'm glad I didn't pay for it. This is exactly why I advocate obtaining things first for demo's. I'm not really thrilled with it's performance on my 15" mbp. I've got 2gb of RAM, and I still sometimes see hang ups. The UI.... ugh I'm very split. It's nice, but its very.... blah. I'm going back to Tiger next week. I'm just not that impressed. And the speed? It's like that little old lady from the old Wendy's hamburgers.

Where's the speed?

I know some folks here hate guys like me who DL first. But you know what.. if I had bought Leopard first... god I'd be soooooo pissed off right now. I just don't see the value this time around for the "average" home user.

I have a 1st-gen MacBook Pro with 2 GB of RAM, and Leopard sure feels noticeably faster than Tiger to me. This seems to mirror most other experience I've heard.

[0157988944]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Sure everyone who doesn't jump on the whine, moan and bitch about Mac OS X Leopard bandwagon is an Apple apologist. Why not.

We've even come to the point where members complain about the default way Apple has set up the Finder toolbar, although it's completely customizable. Gotta love that.

That was one member, me, and I was thinking that the space between the back and view buttons were set in stone. Don't blow things out of proportion.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Nor is it my fault you are a blatant Apple apologist.

V

Apple only cares about apologists and hates people such as yourself. Steve Jobs even once told me he would be delighted to see you move to Windows.

[analogika]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

1) It doesn't interact with iTunes anymore. You can be listening to something in iTunes and it shuts it off when entering FrontRow.

2) It stops the music once you exit the music section. WTF? How am I supposed to watch slideshows with music now? Completely useless! What if I were listening to a podcast and had to exit FR to check my e-mails? Interruptions. FrontRow is now almost useless for photos and music.

Just used Front Row in Leopard for the first time this evening, and everything else I really don't mind, and I *love* the fact that it's so much faster, and I really like the improvements over Tiger, but THOSE TWO POINTS drove me up the wall.

[0157988944]

ditto.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

You can also look at it another way: it's completely consistent with the way it handles every media. When you exit Front Row while watching a video, it doesn't keep playing the video in QuickTime Player or DVD Player. When you're done viewing pictures in Front Row, it doesn't show these pictures in iPhoto.

That is just pure rationalisation. Music, as opposed to viewing movies and photos is a non-modal activity. You don't sit and watch your music. You play it while you do other things.

As I have run Leopard as my main OS at home and at work for several months now I have ran into several real-life usage situations where this new behaviour has been interruptive and annoying:

1) While using Front Row to listen to music while doing other things around the house I hear an incoming e-mail. When I quit out of FR the music stops. There is really no reason why this should happen, I am merely doing another activity on my computer at the same time. There is also no way of continuing where I dropped off, I have to navigate back to the playlist/album/song where I left off and listen to the song again, or the next one. Waste of time, and an annoying interruption.

2) Worse still is the inability to play music while watching photos. Having my neighbour over the other day we were chatting and playing music through FrontRow. During the conversation she asks if I have any pictures from Norway that I can show her. Sure thing, not even leaving my couch I can just go into Photos and play a slideshow right? Right, except the music now stops and now we have awkward silence while I navigate to the right slideshow - which still plays in silence. Again - very interruptive and simply not acceptable.

3) A related case happens often too. While having friends over I often interrupt music to show off a funny video. In previous FR this was seamless, the music would continue to play while browsing and not stop until you selected a video. Again: Silence. Interruption.

Could I use iTunes? Maybe with full screen CoverFlow or JewelCase to replace the FR display? Sure, that would fix scenario one. However it would cause even more interruption for scenario 2 and 3 plus I wouldn't be able to browse using the remote. And what is the point of having a media centre if you can't use it to access all your media.

FrontRow 1 was seamless, but slow and somewhat ugly. FrontRow 2 is fast, slicker looking yet has lost a lot of its usefulness as a media centre. This is not subjective, these are objective facts - no matter how apologists spin it.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

5) If you press and hold the >>| button the playback will fast forward. Press and hold it again and the speed will increase. Works like a charm.

If by charm you mean the charming way it hurtles forward, stops and jumps to another random unpredictable point when you stop (at least with Div-X codecs which accounts for 95% of all my videos), then yes, sure that works charmingly.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

If by charm you mean the charming way it hurtles forward, stops and jumps to another random unpredictable point when you stop (at least with Div-X codecs which accounts for 95% of all my videos), then yes, sure that works charmingly.

It must be that exceptionally good sense of timing I have, because it stops exactly where I tell it to stop. So far DivX encoded files are all I watched using Front Row 2.0.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

That is just pure rationalisation. Music, as opposed to viewing movies and photos is a non-modal activity. You don't sit and watch your music. You play it while you do other things.

Untrue...it can be modal or non-modal. It depends on the person. To some people, listening to music is non-modal. Ask people that go to concerts or audiophiles.

Movies and photos can be non-modal to others. For example, I regularly have EyeTV or some movie playing and I'm not necessarily giving it full attention, I could be doing something else at the same time.

You just can't categorize this stuff as modal or non-modal because, again, it's a matter of taste or opinion.

Also you can't use the excuse that you want to use the computer at the same time because Front Row is *obviously* not designed for people flip-flopping between Front Row and the computer...if this is your cup of cake then you're better off having iTunes open or iPhoto open or whatever.

I'll say it again for emphasis. You *shouldn't* be using Front Row as a media app if you know you'll be doing something on the computer or be distracted by incoming e-mails. It just doesn't make sense to use it that way, you're using it wrong...use iTunes!

[- - e r i k - -]

Again with the rationalisations? For MOST PEOPLE in MOST CASES, watching visual media is a modal activity. Ditto with the reversed situation for music. Sure music listening can be a modal activity, and using your TV as a radio or background noise makes it a non-modal one. However, these are not the normal modes of media interaction. That has nothing to do with taste or opinion.

Ironically what IS a matter of opinion is your ludicrous notion that I am somewhat using FrontRow wrong. Using it to select music and then continue using your computer as normal as adamfishercox described could be described as wrong. Switching out of FR to read an incoming e-mail or IM conversation while using it to listen to music is anything but. That would be considered normal usage of a computer media centre. Or are you suggesting I should get separate computers for my media centre and computer needs?

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again with the rationalisations? For MOST PEOPLE in MOST CASES, watching visual media is a modal activity. Ditto with the reversed situation for music. Sure music listening can be a modal activity, and using your TV as a radio or background noise makes it a non-modal one, these are not the normal modes of media interaction. That has nothing to do with taste or opinion.

Ironically what IS a matter of opinion is your ludicrous notion that I am somewhat using FrontRow wrong. Using it to select music and then continue using your computer as normal as adamfishercox described could be described as wrong. Switching out of FR to read an incoming e-mail or IM conversation while using it to listen to music is anything but. That would be considered normal usage of a computer media centre. Or are you suggesting I should get separate computers for my media centre and computer needs?

Ok, I'm wrong. Thanks for putting me back on my tracks 'cuz I was losing it for a second.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Switching out of FR to read an incoming e-mail or IM conversation while using it to listen to music is anything but. That would be considered normal usage of a computer media centre.

How do you suggest that would work? Because Front Row 2.0 does not rely on iTunes anymore, they're two entirely separate applications. When returning to your Desktop you exit Front Row and thus quitting the application. Obviously playback will cease.

However Apple could, and let's face it should, have made a dialog window asking if you wish to Quit Front Row or if you want to Minimize/Hide it. At the very least some kind of resume feature.

You can forget about starting music in Front Row and transfer it to iTunes. Just like you can't start listing to a music file in QuickTime Player and make iTunes resume it at some point.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

How do you suggest that would work? Because Front Row 2.0 does not rely on iTunes anymore, they're two entirely separate applications. When returning to your Desktop you exit Front Row and thus quitting the application. Obviously playback will cease.

Then bring back interaction with iTunes. No one thinks of FrontRow as an app per se, but as a way to access your media. I have no use for two separate applications to play my music - I just want it to play and not get interrupted by going back and forward into FR or even by browsing menus outside the music ones in FR.

Thinking about FR as an application makes it arbitrarily sandboxed, and again this is a technical rationalisation which doesn't make sense for the end user. It wasn't like this in FR1, and there is no reason it should be in FR2.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

How do you suggest that would work? Because Front Row 2.0 does not rely on iTunes anymore, they're two entirely separate applications. When returning to your Desktop you exit Front Row and thus quitting the application. Obviously playback will cease.

However Apple could, and let's face it should, have made a dialog window asking if you wish to Quit Front Row or if you want to Minimize/Hide it. At the very least some kind of resume feature.

You can however forget about starting music in Front Row and transfer it to iTunes. Just like you can't start listing to a music file in QuickTime Player and make iTunes resume it at some point.

Not sure you can help someone that insists on using Front Row incorrectly.

I'm not sure how else I can explain to people that flip between music and work to not use Front Row but use iTunes instead. I wish I had an even more convincing argument but I don't.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

You can forget about starting music in Front Row and transfer it to iTunes. Just like you can't start listing to a music file in QuickTime Player and make iTunes resume it at some point.

Again, another technical rationalisation. FR does not behave as a normal app, but as a "layer" akin to Dashboard and Exposé. Technically Dashboard and Exposé are also apps (albeit part of Dock.app), but the user does not consider them to be. FrontRow 1 had the expected behaviour of such a "media layer", FrontRow 2 steps back into unnecessary sandboxing.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Then bring back interaction with iTunes. No one thinks of FrontRow as an app per se, but as a way to access your media. I have no use for two separate applications to play my music - I just want it to play and not get interrupted by going back and forward into FR or even by browsing menus outside the music ones in FR.

Thinking about FR as an application makes it arbitrarily sandboxed, and again this is a technical rationalisation which doesn't make sense for the end user. It wasn't like this in FR1, and there is no reason it should be in FR2.

What is the point of opening iTunes if you're using Front Row? Why would someone want to access a front end (a crippled one at that) to a front end to access music? And if you're using iTunes, what is the point of using Front Row?

Front Row is not to be used if you know you'll be sitting in front of the computer doing work or get distracted by work. It's a media center that is supposed to be accessed at a distance with a remote and has a dumbed down interface that is fitted for a remote. In fact, I'm not convinced you can actually hear incoming mail in Front Row (I could be wrong but it would defeat the purpose of making the computer temporarily become a media center) since it would interrupt people listening to music or watching a movie. This will be my last post because I think I'm losing my patience here.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

What is the point of opening iTunes if you're using Front Row? Why would someone want to access a front end (a crippled one at that) to a front end to access music?

I thought this was explained thoroughly already. I use my computer to listen to music. Whether this is when I want to use it for background music when I am using my computer to browse the web, or when I want to use it to listen to music while I am doing other things I want my music to be a seamless continuous experience. Now while switching from iTunes to FR and vice versa the music stops. Before you could just enter FR while still listening to music, now you can not. To switch between them you have to stop listening to music in one place, and spend unnecessary time browsing to get the music back to where you want it.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Front Row is not to be used if you know you'll be sitting in front of the computer doing work or get distracted by work. It's a media center that is supposed to be accessed at a distance with a remote and has a dumbed down interface that is fitted for a remote. In fact, I'm not convinced you can actually hear incoming mail in Front Row (I could be wrong but it would defeat the purpose of making the computer become a media center) since it would interrupt people listening to music or watching a movie. This will be my last post because I think I'm losing my patience here.

What is it with people who keep editing their posts while I reply to them?

Besides, this only warrants a repeat of what I already said in the post you apologised in reply to.

[Horsepoo!!!]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again, another technical rationalisation. FR does not behave as a normal app, but as a "layer" akin to Dashboard and Exposé. Technically Dashboard and Exposé are also apps (albeit part of Dock.app), but the user does not consider them to be. FrontRow 1 had the expected behaviour of such a "media layer", FrontRow 2 steps back into unnecessary sandboxing.

Again, a front end to a front end makes little sense. It unnecessarily uses computer resources, slows down the user experience if the proper applications aren't launched, and just doesn't make sense if you consider that Front Row isn't supposed to be an extension to iTunes or iPhoto or be used while you're sitting right in front of the computer.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again, another technical rationalisation. FR does not behave as a normal app, but as a "layer" akin to Dashboard and Exposé.

That doesn't change the technical fact that it is it's own independent application, just like iTunes is, just like DVD Player, just like QuickTime Player. You just can't go around that.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

technically Dashboard and Exposé are also apps (albeit part of Dock.app), but the user does not consider them to be. FrontRow 1 had the expected behaviour of such a "media layer", FrontRow 2 steps back into unnecessary sandboxing.

Front Row 2 is nothing like Dashboard and Exposé because it does not rely on one or more host applications like the two examples you gave. It's a separate application that shares the same libraries with iTunes, iPhoto and iMovie.

Plus I really don't get where you got the idea from that media centers should "normally" behave that way. If I exit Media Center on Windows Vista you don't see Windows Media Player launch by itself and suddenly resume playback either.

If for one can't believe you would actually go back to the way Front Row works on Tiger for the sheer fact it's extremely slow due to the need of a constant line of communication between Front Row, iTunes and iPhoto.

If you actively use your computer launch iTunes and start playback there.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by Horsepoo!!! 

Again, a front end to a front end makes little sense. It unnecessarily uses computer resources, slows down the user experience if the proper applications aren't launched, and just doesn't make sense if you consider that Front Row isn't supposed to be an extension to iTunes or iPhoto or be used while you're sitting right in front of the computer.

Again, two front ends to the same media makes even less sense. Arbitrary transitions between usage may be fine in your world, but it does not accurately reflect real world usage as demonstrated in my examples.

[- - e r i k - -]

Originally Posted by .Neo 

That doesn't change the technical fact that it is it's own independent application, just like iTunes is, just like DVD Player, just like QuickTime Player. You just can't go around that fact.

Can you please stop with this silly rationalisation? It doesn't need to be as demonstrated by FR1.

Originally Posted by .Neo 

Plus I really don't get where you got the idea from that media centers should "normally" behave that way. If I exit Media Center on Windows Vista you don't see Windows Media Player launch by itself and suddenly resume playback either.

Again, FrontRow 1 worked this way, FR2 does not. Step back no matter how you try and spin it. Windows comparisons around here is starting to require the computer equivalent of Godwin's Law.

Originally Posted by .Neo 

If for one can't believe you would actually go back to the way Front Row works on Tiger for the sheer fact it's extremely slow due to the need of a constant line of communication between Front Row, iTunes and iPhoto.

This might be a valid point, but unless you can prove that this was a deciding factor for a lesser end user experience it remains pure speculation.

[.Neo]

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Can you please stop with this silly rationalisation? It doesn't need to be as demonstrated by FR1.

Can you please stop acting as if you can somehow go around these technical facts? If you can come up with a reasonable solution different from how Front Row on Tiger works I'm all ears.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

Again, FrontRow 1 worked this way, FR2 does not. Step back no matter how you try and spin it. Windows comparisons around here is starting to require the computer equivalent of Godwin's Law.

Because for the final time both versions are fundamentally different. Front Row on Tiger requires iTunes to run at all times in the background. So when exiting Front Row iTunes would still be there playing. You act like it is some intentional feature, something I highly doubt. The way I see it it's more like an, in your opinion, convient side effect.

Again, what you expect from Front Row 2.0 is exactly the same as expecting iTunes to continue audio playback after you quit it.

Originally Posted by - - e r i k - - 

This might be a valid point, but unless you can prove that this was a deciding factor for a lesser end user experience it remains pure speculation.

Anyone can see it is. If iTunes isn't running Front Row has to wait for it to launch. When an iPod is attached things can even take longer because syncing has priority and slows down iTunes. Hell, if things go wrong Front Row will even give you some sort of "iTunes is not running" error.

All this certainly tributes to Front Row's poor performance on even the latest Macs like my iMac.

[thunderous_funker]

What is so hard about using iTunes to play music while you're running around and then checking email or showing a funny video or whatever else?

It has a nice full screen interface (especially with cover flow max sized) and it even works with your Apple remote.

You are literally complaining about nothing. You don't even have a leg to stand on. You want FR to be slower and hobbled just so it supports a completely counter-intuitive and, quite frankly, stupid individual habit.

Honestly, I am forever amazed at how ridiculously fickle apple users can be. Its amazing that they continually please a user base so completely loaded with people who are so inflexible and quixotic.

[.Neo]

thunderous_funker: Thank you.

[krove]

After trying to parse the increasingly vitriolic responses in this thread, I have to say that thunderous_funker is my hero.