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Wickedkitten · Jul 30, 2003, 08:07 PM

is it just me or are games a LOT faster in Panther?

So far I've ran UT 2k3, Bloodrayne, and Dungeon Siege and the only problem I have had is in Dungeon Siege the cursor has turned into a big white box.

In Bloodrayne, it takes about 2 minutes to load but once it does its about 25% faster than it is in Jag

Adam Betts · Jul 30, 2003, 09:39 PM

7B21 + Warcraft III = Very playable!

The only problem I'm having is Warcraft III sometime lose control of the keyboard/mouse and have to restart to fix.

torifile · Jul 30, 2003, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
7B21 + Warcraft III = Very playable!

The only problem I'm having is Warcraft III sometime lose control of the keyboard/mouse and have to restart to fix.

When WCIII works, it is like butta over here. The first time I tried, it logged me and another user out of the OS (windowmanger looks like it crashed or something). I logged in again and it was fine.

xyber233 · Jul 30, 2003, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
7B21 + Warcraft III = Very playable!

The only problem I'm having is Warcraft III sometime lose control of the keyboard/mouse and have to restart to fix.

How much of a difference is there between Panther and Jaguar? Very noticable?

redJag · Jul 30, 2003, 11:43 PM

Sounds like I may be able to play War3 on X! Sounds good. Getting tired of Windows XP. So..old.

a2daj · Jul 31, 2003, 04:50 PM

Wow, it looks like we have a lot of developers breaking their NDAs

juanpacolopez · Jul 31, 2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by a2daj:
Wow, it looks like we have a lot of developers breaking their NDAs

I thought the NDAs only applied to providing support/information on installing/using Panther... not subjectives like:

Warcraft III plays well.

I've seen a ton of posts that weren't locked for violating any rules over on the OSX forum... the only thing that seems to be a no-no is providing support and/or code? It seems that subjective game performance would fall more under the "general impressions" category.

Besides, these comments are all very positive... I doubt Apple would care much if people were saying: "Yeah, Panther rocks, games run faster, War3 especially... you should definitely get it when it's released".

Adam Betts · Jul 31, 2003, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by xyber233:
How much of a difference is there between Panther and Jaguar? Very noticable?

I'd say pretty noticeable. I don't know if it's Panther but texture and color looks much crispier and colorful.

I'll be doing more tests on other "heavy" games soon.

Anyone know what command I should use to turn on FPS checker in WCIII? I'll boot in Jaguar to see if FPS is improved in Panther.

a2daj · Jul 31, 2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by juanpacolopez:
I thought the NDAs only applied to providing support/information on installing/using Panther... not subjectives like:

Warcraft III plays well.

I've seen a ton of posts that weren't locked for violating any rules over on the OSX forum... the only thing that seems to be a no-no is providing support and/or code? It seems that subjective game performance would fall more under the "general impressions" category.

Besides, these comments are all very positive... I doubt Apple would care much if people were saying: "Yeah, Panther rocks, games run faster, War3 especially... you should definitely get it when it's released".

A lot of NDAs apply to everything. For instance, a lot of beta testing NDAs for games require the user not to mention anything about including specific bugs or even how well it runs on specific pieces of hardware until after a certain date. That was the case with WWIIOnline, Shadowbane, and Everquest all of which I had to sign/agree to an NDA (before open beta started testing for some of the games).

But my comment was mainly poking fun of the fact that many people who should not even have Panther are using it and commenting about it. Technically, the only people that should have Panther are those who have permission to use it, most notably those who signed NDAs with Apple. I believe the developers who have download access to the latest Panther release from Apple's developer site have accounts which required NDAs. For those developers who picked up copies at WWDC, they should have had to sign an NDA to even attend WWDC. People I talked to that attended the conference said they did have to sign one. IIRC, not even the press were allowed to have copies of Panther although those with sneaky contacts were able to acquire the DP.

sandsl · Jul 31, 2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by a2daj:
But my comment was mainly poking fun of the fact that many people who should not even have Panther are using it and commenting about it. Technically, the only people that should have Panther are those who have permission to use it, most notably those who signed NDAs with Apple. I believe the developers who have download access to the latest Panther release from Apple's developer site have accounts which required NDAs. For those developers who picked up copies at WWDC, they should have had to sign an NDA to even attend WWDC. People I talked to that attended the conference said they did have to sign one. IIRC, not even the press were allowed to have copies of Panther although those with sneaky contacts were able to acquire the DP.

If you've got it legally you've signed an NDA. If you've got it illegally you haven't signed an NDA and therefore theres nothing to stop you talking about it.

a2daj · Jul 31, 2003, 08:24 PM

Exactly. And anyone discussion Panther is a software pirate then? So MacNN is a bastion for software pirates to discuss their illegally obtained software? I'm sure software publishers love that

Well, looks like MacNN is cracking down on Panther discussions. Any bets on when this thread will be locked/deleted?

http://forums.macnn.com/showthread.p...hreadid=166047

DBvader · Jul 31, 2003, 08:25 PM

i havent messed around with the new panther beta, but i think that gaming was actually a bit slower on my Dual 867 (radeon 9000) in the first panther release.

torifile · Jul 31, 2003, 11:39 PM

Putting WCIII in windowed mode and going into expose really shows off the power of panther. It plays in the tiny window without a hitch. Wow.

xyber233 · Jul 31, 2003, 11:56 PM

That's great news since I'm tired of booting into os 9 to play WC3. I hope it keeps getting better.

jamesa · Aug 1, 2003, 10:05 AM

from macbidollue

"Panther makes us wonder every day a bit more. "le_mackeux" on our forums posted the results he reached with BenchUT2003 under X.2.6 and X.3. He uses a G4 Quicksilver 933 with a Radeon 9000 and 1.5 Go RAM. Tests were done under 1280*1024 resolution with demo flyby-citadel

Under X.2.6:
Score 37.00
Min FPS 11.42
Average FPS 36.94
max 121.27

Under X.3:
Score 55.95
Min FPS 17.4
Average FPS 57.026
max 192.117

Score improves by more than 30% ! One would end frustrated by all the time wasted since X version 0 !

"

-- james

keston · Aug 1, 2003, 10:13 AM

placebo?

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
I'd say pretty noticeable. I don't know if it's Panther but texture and color looks much crispier and colorful.

BZ · Aug 1, 2003, 11:55 AM

That is some of the best news I have heard all week. I mean, we will get 30% speed just by moving to 10.3 in OpenGL games and performance? That is amazing.

This is why when someone asks why we should have to pay $129 for an OS update, I say.. "Would you pay $129 for a chip that could give your mac 30% increase in speed?"

BZ

Originally posted by jamesa:
from macbidollue
" Score improves by more than 30% ! One would end frustrated by all the time wasted since X version 0 !"
-- james

gorgonzola · Aug 1, 2003, 12:43 PM

That's really bizarre, because according to these XBench results, OpenGL in Panther has taken a somewhat large speed hit: 39 fps vs 54 fps in Jaguar. I wonder why games are faster?

Also, as far as MacNN and prerelease builds are concerned, our policy is (and has always been) as follows:

You may discuss prerelease software such as developer seeds of Mac OS X unless Apple (or the company in question) requests us to remove the information, in which case we will do so.
You may provide screenshots and/or movies of prerelease software unless Apple or the developer requests us to remove it, in which case we will do so.
You may not provide information on how to obtain prerelease software. Links to websites, FTP servers, or other servers are not appropriate; posts like "Email me and I'll send you Panther" are not appropriate; instructions for finding server addresses that do not explicitly state the actual address are not appropriate either.
You may not provide any support whatsoever on installing Panther or getting it to work properly. If it deletes all your files, tough. If you have a legitimate copy of Panther (as many of our readers do), please use Apple's BugReporter or some Apple-sanctioned support outlet. Real developers are entitled to that support and should use it.

In short, discussion/screenshots are fine, actual piracy is not. That thread you linked is not us "just" cracking down, it's a reminder of policies we've had for years. All activity that we allow is subject to immediate removal without notice if Apple requests us to remove it (and they have before, though not that often) and you should assume that any info on Panther is subject to removal at any time. These policies could change in the future if Apple decides that screenshots are also out of line or something, but so far that doesn't seem to have been the case.

Didn't mean to derail the thread; I just like to clear up this policy when people have questions about it. I know you were half-joking, but I felt I might as well clear it up anyway.

Now back to OpenGL/Gaming performance...anyone know why it's faster but benchmarks slower?

Adam Betts · Aug 1, 2003, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by keston:
placebo?

I'm not that stupid. I'm not like those who said every 10.x.x updates feel "SNAPPY!"

Adam Betts · Aug 1, 2003, 01:23 PM

Originally posted by gorgonzola:
Now back to OpenGL/Gaming performance...anyone know why it's faster but benchmarks slower?

They tested on WWDC Build, not the newest one: 7B21.

There's a BIG difference between them two.

juanpacolopez · Aug 1, 2003, 01:58 PM

Originally posted by gorgonzola:

Also, as far as MacNN and prerelease builds are concerned, our policy is (and has always been) as follows:

Thanks for clearing that up! I was wondering myself what the exact policy was, since the thread they pointed to wasn't very clear.

As for OpenGL performance... perhaps Panther includes new RADEON drivers? Though I have no idea how xbench gl would be lower.

DBvader · Aug 1, 2003, 03:10 PM

"I'm not that stupid. I'm not like those who said every 10.x.x updates feel "SNAPPY!""

but they were

Adam Betts · Aug 1, 2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by DBvader:
"I'm not that stupid. I'm not like those who said every 10.x.x updates feel "SNAPPY!""

but they were

Heh, for a short time...

Wickedkitten · Aug 1, 2003, 07:49 PM

there was a patch for dungeon siege that was released today that got rid of the redraw problem in panther.

btw for the guy that is saying people are breaking NDA's, how do you figure a NDA has been broken when:

1. There was nothing said other than "games run faster in Panther than in Jag"

2. There are no screenshots or technical details involved

also what are you, the NDA policeman? It's comments like that, that piss off a lot of people that have spent good money on a select membership.

a2daj · Aug 1, 2003, 11:02 PM

Did you bother reading my post in its entirety? I've had to sign/agree to more than a few NDAs. As I already stated, some NDAs require that one does not mention anything pubically about whatever the NDA covers including comments like "games run faster".

And how do you know I'm pissing off Select members? And how exactly am I pissing them off?

And in case you missed it I already said I was poking fun of something.

i am yujin · Aug 2, 2003, 01:36 AM

Does WC3 run on Panther as well as it does on Mac OS 9? If it does, I'll be impressed. If not then... =\

The way WC3 runs on Jaguar is sheer crap compared to how it runs on OS 9.

Wickedkitten · Aug 2, 2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by a2daj:
[And how do you know I'm pissing off Select members? And how exactly am I pissing them off?

Exactly. And anyone discussion Panther is a software pirate then? So MacNN is a bastion for software pirates to discuss their illegally obtained software? I'm sure software publishers love that

Well, looks like MacNN is cracking down on Panther discussions. Any bets on when this thread will be locked/deleted?

Adam Betts · Aug 2, 2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by i am yujin:
Does WC3 run on Panther as well as it does on Mac OS 9? If it does, I'll be impressed. If not then... =\

The way WC3 runs on Jaguar is sheer crap compared to how it runs on OS 9.

From what I see in WCIII, Panther is definitely better than OS9.

a2daj · Aug 2, 2003, 01:49 PM

Wickedkitten, you're really good at taking things out of context.

i am yujin · Aug 2, 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
From what I see in WCIII, Panther is definitely better than OS9.

Wow, really? I must have my hands on this!

Brad Oliver · Aug 2, 2003, 04:25 PM

Originally posted by Wickedkitten:
It's comments like that, that piss off a lot of people that have spent good money on a select membership.

Speaking as a Select member myself, why would thiss piss you off?

Mrjinglesusa · Aug 2, 2003, 04:41 PM

Probably because Select Members PAID for their membership that entitles them to OS seed downloads while others (myself included) downloaded the seeds for free.

gorgonzola · Aug 2, 2003, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
They tested on WWDC Build, not the newest one: 7B21.

There's a BIG difference between them two.

Ah, ok. Thanks.

Angus_D · Aug 2, 2003, 05:35 PM

Originally posted by sandsl:
If you've got it legally you've signed an NDA. If you've got it illegally you haven't signed an NDA and therefore theres nothing to stop you talking about it.

No but you've violated Apple's license agreements and committed the legal equivalent of theft.

Brad Oliver · Aug 2, 2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Mrjinglesusa:
Probably because Select Members PAID for their membership that entitles them to OS seed downloads while others (myself included) downloaded the seeds for free.

That does bother me to some extent, which is why I agree with a2daj on this.

goMac · Aug 2, 2003, 11:53 PM

Doesn't really bother me. I usually like to see whats in the new seed before downloading it (especially on Apple's uber slow servers), so for me, this is a service!

Deicide · Aug 3, 2003, 02:49 AM

WC3:TFT doesn't play any better under 7B21 on either my 800Mhz/768MB iMac or my dual 1.25Ghz/512MB G4. As matter of fact it takes longer to bring up the interface.

Adam Betts · Aug 3, 2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Deicide:
WC3:TFT doesn't play any better under 7B21 on either my 800Mhz/768MB iMac or my dual 1.25Ghz/512MB G4. As matter of fact it takes longer to bring up the interface.

At first startup it'll take long because Bink is not yet compatible with Panther. Just click to skip the startup movie.

When you get an interface, change the video/audio setting to your original setting. In Panther, you'd have to set preferences all over. After that the interface will be way faster.

What video cards do you have? Did you upgrade to WCIII 1.11?

Deicide · Aug 3, 2003, 04:50 PM

Both machines are using the stock video cards. Geforce2MX and a Radeon 9000 pro. I have updated to the 1.12 patch.

Adam Betts · Aug 3, 2003, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by Deicide:
Both machines are using the stock video cards. Geforce2MX and a Radeon 9000 pro. I have updated to the 1.12 patch.

Hmm, interesting.. 97% of the people who have played WCIII in 7B21 said it's noticeable faster than in 10.2.

Could you tell me what game mode you tested in 7B21? If custom games, what kind?

Gul Banana · Aug 3, 2003, 09:18 PM

For me, Warcraft III in Panther, on my iBook 800, runs just about the same as it did in Jaguar. Which is to say, quite well but not brilliantly. Perfectly playable, though. But it was before...

Dex13 · Aug 3, 2003, 11:02 PM

Ghost Recon Crashes when quitting to the finder.

Thats about the only problem so far for me and gaming.

rbarris · Aug 4, 2003, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by Adam Betts:
At first startup it'll take long because Bink is not yet compatible with Panther.

Warcraft III and TFT do not use Bink, they use DivX video.

Rob rbarris "at" blizzard.com

i am yujin · Aug 4, 2003, 02:52 AM

War3 seems to run the same as it did on my Powerbook.

Deicide · Aug 4, 2003, 05:07 AM

Hmm, interesting.. 97% of the people who have played WCIII in 7B21 said it's noticeable faster than in 10.2.

Could you tell me what game mode you tested in 7B21? If custom games, what kind?

I do a custom game on booty bay with all visibility. Using the arrow keys or mouse to scroll. Today I also tried it on my friends dual 800Mhz G4 with 1GB ram and a Geforce 4 ti. It has the same choppy scrolling.

Adam Betts · Aug 4, 2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by rbarris:
Warcraft III and TFT do not use Bink, they use DivX video.

Oh sorry, thanks for correcting me.

By the way, I normally read FAQ, etc for answers but I couldn't find them so I'm asking you... Is there a way to enable FPS checker in WCIII?