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Computer for Computer Science Major...
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eightoeight
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May 25, 2003, 02:56 AM
 
I was thinking about getting a PowerMac, but perhaps it might be better to just get a PC if I'm interested in becoming an Information and Computer Sciences major? I would rather get a Mac, but if it does make more sense to get a PC...I wouldn't mind doing that as well. If anyone has any experience or opinion on this subject, please let me know. Thank you for the help!
     
starfleetX
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May 25, 2003, 03:39 AM
 
Mac OS X is a perfectly capable system for computer science.

I'm a comp sci major and my old dual 500 PowerMac works wonderfully. Some of my professors use Macs, even. My last java professor used his PowerBook (Ti) with the overhead screen for much of his work and you could find screenshots of Mac OS X windows in many of his notes.

Mac OS X's developer tools are excellent. Whether you're programming in c, c++, or java, the gcc tools and jdk that are included are all you'll need.

I'd say get a Mac.
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Gul Banana
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May 25, 2003, 04:42 AM
 
I'd venture the opinion that Macs are actually better for a Computer Science student, because of all the open-source development tools we now have available. And I am a CS student, so I should know
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speirsfr
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May 25, 2003, 05:04 AM
 
To be honest, serious Comp. Sci. means running a unix. Whether you interpret that to mean a PC running Linux or a Mac running OS X is up to you.

Having done both in the context of my undergraduate and postgraduate studies, I'll suggest that your time is probably better spent studying than babysitting a fragile Linux distribution.

Seriously, unless your school feeds you nothing but 100% Windows-based training, you shouldn't consider Windows for your OS. It's too incompatible. It doesn't run many things you'll need and, if it does, they're typically halfbaked ports that live in their own little world instead of integrating properly with the OS (e.g. Gygwin).
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geekwagon
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May 25, 2003, 05:37 AM
 
I'm currently pursuing a IT degree (a little more "applied" than a CompSci major) and I use my Powerbook for everything. I do have VirtualPC for the rare times that a class needs some windows-only piece of software, such as MS Project, though.

I have found the development tools that you get for free with OS X to be really nice, and to fit the bill for programming classes quite nicely. I am currently in a programming class that uses Java and I am surprised by how nice Project Builder works for Java projects. The only thing that would be nice (and that I kind of miss from using Visual C++ on Windows..) is having right click access to the class-library documentation right from your code. It's all in there, but you have to go to another window to search for it. Oh well

I had a C programming class as well, and other than some oddities between the way unix handles stdin/stdout and how dos/Win does input/output the source I made on my Mac compiled just fine for my instructors to grade.. However, if the curriculum is going to be focusing on MS only stuff like Visual Basic, maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea. Then again, maybe it wouldn't be such a good idea to take classes in MS-only programming languages, either
     
eightoeight  (op)
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May 25, 2003, 06:05 AM
 
Wow Thanks everyone.

So now . . . laptop or desktop ... heheheh.

     
edddeduck
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May 25, 2003, 06:06 AM
 
I am in the last 4 weeks of my computer science degree and have used OS X the whole way though.

The only thing I used in VPC was M$ Project as there is no longer a up to date macintosh version.

For the rest it was if anything an advantage as most of the work is on unix boxes and being able to write reports in M$ Word while compiling Lex & Yacc parsing applications on the command line is usefull.

Actually I would actually say a University degree course is better suited to a mac as it has a Unix undercore.

Cheers Edwin
     
ShotgunEd
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May 25, 2003, 08:49 AM
 
My parents offered to get me a computer when i started my comp sci degree. Without hesitation I got a mac and it was the best decision ever. I think im the only person of the 350 students that has a mac though.

Java is our core language and my projects always looked better than other peoples because of aqua.

The *nix underpinnings make OSX an excellent choice.
     
Coxy
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May 25, 2003, 09:29 AM
 
Originally posted by geekwagon:
The only thing that would be nice (and that I kind of miss from using Visual C++ on Windows..) is having right click access to the class-library documentation right from your code. It's all in there, but you have to go to another window to search for it. Oh well
Option+double-click on something, dude.

Also, another vote for Mac OS for CS, and some clarification: Gul Banana does Computing and Mathematical Sciences, not pure CS.
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mindwaves
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May 25, 2003, 09:47 AM
 
     
bewebste
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May 25, 2003, 11:48 AM
 
Originally posted by eightoeight:
Wow Thanks everyone.

So now . . . laptop or desktop ... heheheh.

Laptop all the way. They're addictive.

But your choice of computer will depend on how the school you go to teaches. My brother went to a school where everything was Visual C++ crap, so he couldn't use his Mac for any of it (Virtual PC was just way too slow). I went to two different universities that both did all their stuff on Sun/Solaris, i.e. UNIX, so once I got my hands on OS X, I could pretty much do my projects all on my Powerbook and then just recompile them on the school's machines once I was done.

The only exception was projects where we had to use some library that was only available on the school's machines. But in that case, I just used BBEdit to edit my source files via FTP on my school account and then compiled and ran the stuff through ssh, along with the occasianal X-Windows session when necessary. Worked like a charm, and I doubt you could do it that easily on a PC.

Also, if your school does lots of Java stuff, everything you need is included for free with Apple's dev tools, wherease on a PC you'd either have to download Sun's crappy SDK or blow some money on a Java IDE.

So the only case I'd recommend buying a PC for is if your school's CS department has been completely assimilated by M$. Of course, then I'd really recommend just going to a different school.
     
coolmacdude
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May 25, 2003, 12:03 PM
 
I am a second year comp sci student and my school is pretty much all Unix stuff, so lots of the professors and comp sci people really like Macs. There is always VPC for the occasional Windows need but for the most part, Macs are no worse (actually better) for most classes.
( Last edited by coolmacdude; May 25, 2003 at 11:46 PM. )
     
Xeo
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May 25, 2003, 01:04 PM
 
As another CS major, I'd have to agree with everyone else here. I have used my Mac throughout my degree and haven't been forced to use anything I couldn't do on my Mac running OS X. Our CS department is 100% linux so everything I need has an OS X version somewhere (if not, I just compile it myself).

The only time I've been FORCED to use a lab machine was when we did hardware tests comparing the PII to the P4. In that case, everyone was forced to use the lab machines so it didn't matter what OS they were using at home.

As for Desktop vs. Laptop, it's up to you. I love having a desktop in my room that's always on and I can access my files from anywhere, but I also love my iBook that I can take to the cafeteria or the library to work on whatever. Also, having a wireless network on campus makes a laptop even more appealing.

Over time, you should get both. You'll never regret it.
     
off/lang
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May 25, 2003, 01:08 PM
 
I just finished my second year in CS. Most of the students develop on a PC, mostly in windows. Then there is a small contingent who develop using linux. And then there are the three or four of us who use OSX.

I personally love it because not all of my courses are computer science. I can write my history paper in word at the same time as I'm in terminal compiling a big java project.

Also, if you are the kind of person who likes to go off and learn stuff on your own, you'll love Cocoa (the native OSX language and libraries). It is truly a pleasure to work with.

If your school isn't MS-based (that is, if they don't teach visual basic and visual c++) then you'll do fine to better on a mac with OSX than otherwise.
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SummitWynds
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May 25, 2003, 01:35 PM
 
My son is a computer science major. I gave him my 15" Ti 400 last fall and he is thrilled with it. I highly recommend a Mac G4 laptop for a computer science major.
     
alien
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May 25, 2003, 06:08 PM
 
I'm studying numerical mathematics and comp.sci. at university too. I've used various Windows PCs, BSD, Linux and SunRay machines for my work, but I find that OS X is better than all of those.

In addition to all the fine recommodations given in the other posts, I'd like to add that the Apple Developer Connection has a Student program that costs $99/year. This is well worth it, since you will receive monthly mailings with code samples, the big updates like Jaguar come for free, and you can apply for one of 300 student scholarships to WWDC. The membership also gives you a possibility to buy a Mac with a 20% discount - but only once while you're a student.

I highly recommend a laptop, and I have an iBook myself. Since you will probably have many windows open while coding, it could be wise to go for a machine with more screen real estate, like the 15" PowerBook (which will probably get an update soon). Another option is the 12" PowerBook, because of the small size. If you find the screen to small, you can always connect an external screen to it. Unfortunately, the iBooks can't do this without an unsupported hack.

If you go for a desktop, the 17" iMac is really nice. Both the ergonomics and the wide-screen are amazing. It turns out that my university has a few of them, and that's where I'm doing my work these days.
     
geekwagon
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May 25, 2003, 06:13 PM
 
Originally posted by Coxy:
Option+double-click on something, dude.

THANK YOU! That is sweet. I never would have thought of trying that.

I was kinda hoping someone would know how to do that
     
foobars
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May 25, 2003, 06:31 PM
 
I'm gonna echo what everyone else has said here and point out that I'm a CS major who has found it signifigantly easier to program on a Mac than a PC. There have been numerous situations where I have had to help out my PC buddies to get stuff to complile. I've only once had to go to a lab to complete a project which required a PC, and that was only because it was a poorly written java applet.

I too was worried about getting a Mac considering my major was riding on it, but what others have said is correct: CS really means using UNIX, and by sophmore year everyone will be running RedHat (CYGWIN is crap). Only they'll be dicking around with makefiles hours after you've done the same thing with Fink.

Oh, I use a Dual 1Ghz MDD. I really like being able to have a big 19" monitor. Of course given the chance two years ago I would have gotten a 17" PowerBook, you can't really go wrong either way.
     
11011001
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May 25, 2003, 06:45 PM
 
I have a desktop mac.. I am CPSC major. Go with mac.. it's perfect. It has UNIX, X windows (with a little bit of hastle setting it up), and all your general use needs (music, video, office, games, whatever).

I would love to have a Ti Book, the campus and the office I work at (my part time job) is wireless.. so that's a bonus. And you know, now that you are a student (>= 18?), you could enter the Apple Student Developer Awards.. grand prize is a high end Ti-Book. But, the deadline for this year is over.. next one is 2004.
     
iJed
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May 25, 2003, 11:15 PM
 
I also agree with going with the Mac. I'm nearing the end of my third year and I've used OS X for nearly everything.
     
waffffffle
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May 25, 2003, 11:28 PM
 
I'm a CS major and I can pretty much agree with everyone here, Mac OS X is the perfect OS for a CS student. No other OS comes close, and that includes linux and Windows.

There is not a single class in my CS department where Microsoft's technology is used as the standard (they'll let you use it in some classes if you really want to). Having OS X has been excellent and I don't know how I could work without project builder.

In most classes, regardless of where you develop on, you have to be sure your code compiles on the school's server (ours is running Solaris). Every once and a while something in Mac OS X is a little different than Solaris (meaning you change one line of code to reflect a different header file), but those differences are minimal in comparison to working on Windows.

Microsoft loves our CS department, even though we don't seem to love them in return. Yes, they hire a bunch of our graduates each year and take our undergrads out to Redmond to intern this summer. They even donated a whole lab of Micron PCs with stickers that say "Donated by Microsoft Research." The funny thing is, they're all running Linux. We were required to use that lab to do assignments for the class onOperating Systems. Having a Windows PC would have been just as useless as having a Mac for that class since we were stuck in the lab the whole time.
     
moki
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May 26, 2003, 01:15 AM
 
Originally posted by eightoeight:
I was thinking about getting a PowerMac, but perhaps it might be better to just get a PC if I'm interested in becoming an Information and Computer Sciences major? I would rather get a Mac, but if it does make more sense to get a PC...I wouldn't mind doing that as well. If anyone has any experience or opinion on this subject, please let me know. Thank you for the help!
Given that you'll get a powerful development environment for free with a MacOS X machine, it should be a no-brainer.

Unless your coursework specifically requires something such as Visual C++, Mac OS X is a perfect environment for a CS major. You get all of the Unix goodies, such as gcc, g++, gdb, and a raft of sample code that will compile and work out of the box.

Throw in ProjectBuilder/InterfaceBuilder, and all of those free & powerful Unix utilities, and you have a recipe for a fun little development box.
Andrew Welch / el Presidente / Ambrosia Software, Inc.
     
DBvader
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May 26, 2003, 01:54 AM
 
im an EE/CS major at UCSD. and my powermac is perfect for programming. im sure the others have told you why, but i just wanted to chime in...
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ginoledesma
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May 26, 2003, 02:42 AM
 
I've already graduated with a degree in Computer Science and I survived college life with my Mac, inspute of the Windows-centric environment in school.

I couldn't agree more with speirsfr about Comp Sci needing Unix. The only use I've really needed MS Windows for was to view certain MS Word/PowerPoint documents that were _too_ tailored that it became too difficult to read under Mac OS X.

Unless you intend to do serious development using Visual Basic, VisualC++, or other Windows-centric PLs, then there's no reason why a Mac wouldn't be a sufficient tool for your use as a CompSci major (except perhaps when it comes to games). Oh, and of course maybe when you're into CE/EE, where x86 assembly mastery is a requirement. I'm unaware of any x86 assembler emulators for the Mac...

Good luck with your Mac. :-) I've had a great time throughout college with it (still do!).
     
Coxy
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May 26, 2003, 03:18 AM
 
Originally posted by ginoledesma:
Oh, and of course maybe when you're into CE/EE, where x86 assembly mastery is a requirement. I'm unaware of any x86 assembler emulators for the Mac...
At UWA, we do 68k assembler/embedded stuff.
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michaelb
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May 26, 2003, 06:03 AM
 
Wow...

All these CS people using Macs.

Does this mean in the next few years we're going to see a lot of really good Mac software?

I hope so.
     
Tyre MacAdmin
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May 26, 2003, 07:05 AM
 
you can always use virtual pc for windows projects...
     
ngrundy
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May 26, 2003, 07:07 AM
 
Another vote for Mac here.

I'm in my second year of a Bachelor of Computing (read comp sci) at UTas (http://www.utas.edu.au) The School of Computing is pretty platform neutral, 3 PC labs, 2 Mac labs (1x g400s, 1x700mhz iLamps) and a lab of XTerms. The main student server is a Sun system.

This semester I've been doing Algorythms and Metrics which is all done in C. I use GCC and GDB on my laptop and then transfer it accross to the sun box via CDRW when i'm finished.

For Advanced Web Design (PHP / MySQL stuff) I have Apache 2.0.44, PHP 4.3 and MySQL installed. I wrote both of my assignments on my Powerbook and transfered the files and database dumps to the sun system with a CDRW again.

Our Artificial Inteligence classes are done in Open Prolog, A classic application. Installed classic, downloaded Open Prolog did my work on the Powerbook again.

I also use OmniOutliner for taking lecture notes in my computing subjects and my Introduction to Government unit I'm doing. Of course include the use of Word X and stuff for writing essays and documentation.

An as-side: I started playing with OmniGraffle a few weeks ago, It's great for creating network maps or AI inference diagrams. I mapped out a community wireless network I'm involved with down here with OmniGraffle actually. Even did clicky image map stuff

Also the entire BT/SEClicker/SE t68i thing is great! I get to sit back in bed with the laptop on the other side of the room, watch DVD's and use my phone to control the playback
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Garrett Smith
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May 26, 2003, 10:41 AM
 
"Java is our core language and my projects always looked better than other peoples because of aqua.
"

on YOUR machine. How do your projects look on windows? How do the windows users' projs look on your box?


Go buy a cheap PC. Install winXP professional and Mandrake linux.

My 2�


But then, I think formal "education" is a waste of money. You can learn anything you want in your own room. No need to pay an ass-brained professor to lecture you in something you can learn from a book or website.
     
coolmacdude
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May 26, 2003, 12:15 PM
 
Originally posted by Garrett Smith:

on YOUR machine. How do your projects look on windows? How do the windows users' projs look on your box?
Tailoring Java apps for best appearance on any specific platform is a relatively simple task.


Originally posted by Garrett Smith:
Go buy a cheap PC. Install winXP professional and Mandrake linux.
My 2�
Completely disregard this sentence. My 2�.
     
Amorya
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May 26, 2003, 01:52 PM
 
Originally posted by Garrett Smith:
But then, I think formal "education" is a waste of money. You can learn anything you want in your own room. No need to pay an ass-brained professor to lecture you in something you can learn from a book or website.
Uh, yeah. When you go apply for a job, you'll look really great saying "Well, I didn't want a degree... I chose to sit in my room and read a book instead."

Amorya
What the nerd community most often fail to realize is that all features aren't equal. A well implemented and well integrated feature in a convenient interface is worth way more than the same feature implemented crappy, or accessed through a annoying interface.
     
cambro
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May 26, 2003, 01:53 PM
 
Originally posted by eightoeight:
Wow Thanks everyone.

So now . . . laptop or desktop ... heheheh.

Laptop for sure!! Or, if you need a desktop at least wait until the 970 comes out later this year (hopefully!!!)
     
cenutrio
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May 26, 2003, 02:45 PM
 
Laptop, nice spectrum of choices/price right now!
     
bousozoku
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May 26, 2003, 04:36 PM
 
Mac OS X is well-suited for most CompSci curricula. I'm currently working toward a 4 year degree to extend my prior 2 year degree in Computer Programming.

This school has some agreement with Microsoft. The advanced web publishing class deals with IIS and Advanced Server Pages. The advanced C++ class deals with Microsoft Foundation Classes.

Still, the worst trouble I had was the Java instructor who couldn't open my Java source code to check and compile it. He also couldn't speak English well enough to lecture either.

Laptop or desktop? It depends on anything else you might do, but I would go with the 12 inch PowerBook, if it was my choice. If it had been available last year, I would have.
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Garrett Smith
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May 26, 2003, 04:43 PM
 
"on a PC you'd either have to download Sun's crappy SDK"

Yeah, too bad it comes out a full YEAR before the mac sdk. And with mac, it's a good thing you don't have to worry about running weblogic.

You asked a mac forum, so you got your typical mac response. Mac users defend their os to the death.

"Uh, yeah. When you go apply for a job, you'll look really great saying "Well, I didn't want a degree... I chose to sit in my room and read a book instead."
"

If you *really* want a job, you're better to have dev experience on Windows and Linux. Few companies develop software with macs. I should know, I fukked up and bought a mac. Recruiters/employers don't want to hear " I use OS X, a FreeBSD variant ".

For those with enough money, the structure provided by college is best. For me, formal education and its implications is bullshit.
     
allap
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May 26, 2003, 05:45 PM
 
My brother graduated from CS i think two years ago, and he did most of his work in Visual Basic, C++ etc..

Off topic: i'm entering engineering next year, and i was wondering if i should expect to run into any software clonflicts, given that i run OS X?
     
Angus_D
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May 26, 2003, 05:57 PM
 
Originally posted by off/lang:
you'll love Cocoa (the native OSX language and libraries)
<pedantic>Cocoa isn't actually a language, Obj-C is</pedantic>.
     
Brass
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May 26, 2003, 07:04 PM
 
Originally posted by Garrett Smith:
Few companies develop software with macs. I should know, I fukked up and bought a mac. Recruiters/employers don't want to hear " I use OS X, a FreeBSD variant ".
No problem for the thousands of companies that develope software with Unix. You can still develop on your Mac OS X machine, and tell them "I use a unix OS". You can choose for yourself whether you want to use Project Builder, etc, or gcc/g++, etc on the command line.
     
alien
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May 26, 2003, 08:54 PM
 
Originally posted by Garrett Smith:
"on a PC you'd either have to download Sun's crappy SDK"

Yeah, too bad it comes out a full YEAR before the mac sdk. And with mac, it's a good thing you don't have to worry about running weblogic.

You asked a mac forum, so you got your typical mac response. Mac users defend their os to the death.

"Uh, yeah. When you go apply for a job, you'll look really great saying "Well, I didn't want a degree... I chose to sit in my room and read a book instead."
"

If you *really* want a job, you're better to have dev experience on Windows and Linux. Few companies develop software with macs. I should know, I fukked up and bought a mac. Recruiters/employers don't want to hear " I use OS X, a FreeBSD variant ".

For those with enough money, the structure provided by college is best. For me, formal education and its implications is bullshit.
Look, there are usually hundreds, even thousands of PCs at universities. If I need to know Virtual C++ before I finish my studies, I'll use one of those. But for my own learning process I find a Mac to be the best. Getting acquainted with PC development tools is just not a problem. (They're everywhere...)

But students aren't supposed to copy what someone else has already done, or go the path of someone else. My student life is all about finding out what I like to learn myself, on my own, choosing my way of doing it... That's one of the reasons I use Macs...it's better for ME.

Programming languages, computers and operating systems change all the time. Things that were important ten years ago are forgotten now. The same will probably happen to much of what we learn today. But things like mathematics, algorithms and other fundamentals of computer science will be needed permanently. I don't see how I could learn those at home, without fellow students and teachers to discuss it with. (But I respect everyone who chooses a different way...)
     
Phanguye
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May 27, 2003, 02:22 AM
 
Originally posted by Garrett Smith:
If you *really* want a job, you're better to have dev experience on Windows and Linux. Few companies develop software with macs. I should know, I fukked up and bought a mac. Recruiters/employers don't want to hear " I use OS X, a FreeBSD variant ".
right... how many cs majors cant sit down and learn how to use another operating system in about 20 minutes... linux is different but if you already developing on os x it is easy... "yes i have linux developement experiance"

and you learn more then just what is in the books in that formal education (at least in good ones)... you learn how to write, how to be analytical, and overachingly, how to think... obviously you missed out on these skills, but hey at least you are spending your time bitching about macs on a mac centric site... i am sure you are just taking a break from that meaningless existance you call life
     
   
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