[smelias]

Hi all,

I have been an apple enthusiast forever, so it is with great regret that I must say that the refurb dual 2.0 sucks!

I have had it 2 days and in that time it has frozen during installs three times, and now refuses to boot after installing Quicktime 6.5. The only way I can seem to install stuff on the G5 is through target mode, using my trustred PB 17" to do the installs.

For some reason, I believe my G5 is running hot because the freezes only occur when the fans are on full blast. However, the last problem, not booting, has me stumped. I am now going to try to figure out the problem, but I thinkl that I will be seeing my local Apple retailer very soon.

BTW, the Apple Hardware Test says that all is fine.

If only it was

[Cadaver]

Bummer. Hope you get it all sorted out.

[ryju]

Call Apple?

[Briareus]

Really sorry to hear that, smelias.

Aside from my DOA AirPort Extreme card (replaced by Apple the next day) and bad RAM stick (replaced by Crucial within a week), mine's been working perfectly.

I have no chirping sound issues or major fan speedups, which were the major issues I've read about. I'm also a verteran Mac user but new to the G5 architecture, so I unfortunately have no suggestions beyond the obvious (remove 3rd party hardware, safe boot, PRAM reset, DiskWarrior, etc).

Apple's customer service has been very good and I have faith that you'll get it all sorted out. Hey, there's a chance they'll just replace it with a brand new one to ease your stress

At least you live very near an Apple store

Good luck.

[ReggieX]

Phone fruit.

[driven]

I've never even HEARD my fans spin up yet. In fact, my G5 is *almost* as quiet as my Cube was. Go figure.
(My althon system behind me makes enough noise for 3 machines though.)

[reader50]

Originally posted by smelias:
...
For some reason, I believe my G5 is running hot because the freezes only occur when the fans are on full blast.
...

It is the other way around. Fan speed is controlled by the OS, so if the system crashes, the fans go to max speed for safety.

Do a permissions repair. If a target disk install works but self-install does not and hardware test says things are fine, permissions are a likely culprit.

[smelias]

Hi all,

I have been on the phone with the Apple Tech for the whole morning and he is going to forward my info to an engineer who will try to diagnose the problem. This is unfortunate and I hope that they get this resolved soon so I can go about my life. So far I have put 16+ hours on trying to fix this issue and I am running out of patience.

BTW, some of these diagnostic procedures require a good amount of OS X knowledge, which I have, but to a switcher, this process could be overwhelming. Apple should just let me bring my G5 to a local store and let them figure it out, not me. However, the tech guy does not want me to bring it in yet untill he figures what the problem is.

Thanks for the support

[BurpetheadX]

Originally posted by smelias:
Hi all,

I have been on the phone with the Apple Tech for the whole morning and he is going to forward my info to an engineer who will try to diagnose the problem. This is unfortunate and I hope that they get this resolved soon so I can go about my life. So far I have put 16+ hours on trying to fix this issue and I am running out of patience.

BTW, some of these diagnostic procedures require a good amount of OS X knowledge, which I have, but to a switcher, this process could be overwhelming. Apple should just let me bring my G5 to a local store and let them figure it out, not me. However, the tech guy does not want me to bring it in yet untill he figures what the problem is.

Thanks for the support

Well, maybe when this is all said and done they will give you one of the new dual 2.0's, since you cant really replace a refurb.

[Busemann]

Sounds like bad ram to me..
A new computer never freeze like that unless its hardware related.

[BrunoBruin]

The fact that it's freezing when the fans are on full seems to suggest that the machine is overheating, or that it THINKS it is. Have you tried doing a clean install from the system restore disks to see if it runs normally before you install any applications? If you're installing from your PowerBook, it makes me wonder if perhaps some system file was overwritten or changed and the temperature-sensing function in OS X got stuffed.

Bad RAM is also a likely culprit, but I don't think that would explain why the fans run full blast. You're probably aware, but it's worth mentioning, that the fans WILL run full throttle when the machine is in target-disk mode.

[Busemann]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
The fact that it's freezing when the fans are on full seems to suggest that the machine is overheating, or that it THINKS it is. Have you tried doing a clean install from the system restore disks to see if it runs normally before you install any applications? If you're installing from your PowerBook, it makes me wonder if perhaps some system file was overwritten or changed and the temperature-sensing function in OS X got stuffed.

Bad RAM is also a likely culprit, but I don't think that would explain why the fans run full blast. You're probably aware, but it's worth mentioning, that the fans WILL run full throttle when the machine is in target-disk mode.

As previously stated, the fans runs in high-gear when it freezes

[BrunoBruin]

Originally posted by Busemann:
As previously stated, the fans runs in high-gear when it freezes

He said the freezes "only occur when the fans are on full blast," which to me means it's roaring away BEFORE it freezes. smelias, does the machine lock up after the fans have been running, or do they start blasting AFTER the crash? If it crashes and then starts screaming, Busemann is right, the fans will roar because the OS can't adjust the cooling system.

[SafariX]

Originally posted by BrunoBruin:
He said the freezes "only occur when the fans are on full blast," which to me means it's roaring away BEFORE it freezes. smelias, does the machine lock up after the fans have been running, or do they start blasting AFTER the crash? If it crashes and then starts screaming, Busemann is right, the fans will roar because the OS can't adjust the cooling system.

From what I can tell, I would talk to apple about sending a replacement immediately.

[smelias]

Again, thank you for the interest. I do appreciate it.

As far as Apple Tech is concerned, they will get back to me by Tuesday with my options/solutions for this problem. I have to say that the guy I am working with is polite and informed so I feel comfortable with his help. However, I do hope that they come to their sences and just tell me to bring it in to get it fixed, or replaced because this problem is real and time consuming to troubleshoot.

As far as my observation on this freezing problem is concerned, it is a sad fact that it could be any of the issues metioned- bad ram, a fried sensor, defective logic board - simply because it freezes whenever some major activity is occurring, which would tax all of those things. What bothers me the most is that I am spending precios time away from my family to troubleshoot this stupid problem that seems to be common if you read the Apple disscussion board.

At the end of the day I have to decide wheter to keep this thing and try to resolve the issue, or retunr it and keep my 17" PB that never, ever froze on me, using all versions of OSX (it does, however, have the crackilng sound from the video crad which is distracting).

I am a Mac enthusiast because I have used them since the beginning for personal stuff, but I am not a videographer or anything like that which would require me to use this machine. However, I would like to have sommething faster than my 1gz PowerBook to do my home movies (which I truly enjoy). Oh what to do? If I only knew!

[smelias]

Now that I think about it, since the Apple Hardware Test does not freeze when putting strain on the system, it would make sence that maybe, since the fans run on full blast during the test, that it really may be a heat issue.

Is there any way that I could intruct the fans to run more frequently and with more intensity. Is there some sort of thermostat which I could change to be more sensitive? I would like to do a test install of all the software that keeps freezing my system while the fans are an full blast. I bet that the result would be more favorable.

I'm thinking thats why we are now seeing the water cooled G5. The 2.0's probably could have used it too.

[eddiecatflap]

i think the lesson here is don't buy a refurb

who know's what's happened to it with it's previous owner ??

[Dimitri]

Originally posted by driven:
I've never even HEARD my fans spin up yet. In fact, my G5 is *almost* as quiet as my Cube was. Go figure.
(My althon system behind me makes enough noise for 3 machines though.)

Strange. When I wake my G5 from sleep it sounds like an engine revving up. Kinda cool actually. Otherwise, it's the quietest computer I've owned, which is good considering there's like 11 fans in there.

[Eriamjh]

Originally posted by eddiecatflap:
i think the lesson here is don't buy a refurb

who know's what's happened to it with it's previous owner ??

Refurbs are under the same warranty as new PMs. Send it back!

(My refurbed DP800 has never had a problem in 2 years.)

[eddiecatflap]

maybe

but it's like buying a second hand car

it's never 'yours'

if i'm shelling out �2-3k on a mac and screen , i want a BRAND NEW one , ta very much

[smelias]

Originally posted by eddiecatflap:
maybe

but it's like buying a second hand car

it's never 'yours'

if i'm shelling out �2-3k on a mac and screen , i want a BRAND NEW one , ta very much

Well, there is some logic to what you say, because I am starting to think that this was a defective unit which the purchaser returned out of frustration and Apple failed to adequately test it prior to reselling it.

I bet you that the probably do all their restores using some other machine to connect it to because if they actually restored the factory software on this machine, Apple would never had been able to finish the restore.

[southtdi]

Smelias, I truely understand your frustration, I really do. The 2.0ghz don't need the water cooling as far as I can tell. The only time I have ever heard the fans on mine was during a lockup form a game (never happend again, when it wakes form sleep (they spin up for a split second), and the wild and crazy high sped test they get running the hardware test form the CD.

They are a good machi9ne but it sounds as though you got a lemon. Unfortunantly it happens. I do have to say that the few problems I have had with Apple (including a repair mistake they made that no other company would probably have fixed) have all been handled correctly. I have found that if they don't trust the store itself to handle what they think is a hard to establish problem they do not want you to take it there.

My guess is they will call you back with what they think is the problem and have you try a few things whcih, if they don't work, will have you send it in. At that time i would tell them that it was just recieved and you would prefer to replace it, even with another refurb, if possible since you don't feel confidsent that the problem can be solved. They shouldn't have a problem with this since you just got it. I can see you having it for a couple of months and getting good use out of it but in this case, no. I, actually, would be surprised if they even gave you another refurb but rather I brand new one.

As for refurbs, i have bought several over the years form different companies and for the most part they are a great deal. Occansionally, you will get a dud but that usually ends up getting replaced by a brand new machine for no extra charge.

[smelias]

Originally posted by southtdi:
Smelias, I truely understand your frustration, I really do. The 2.0ghz don't need the water cooling as far as I can tell. The only time I have ever heard the fans on mine was during a lockup form a game (never happend again, when it wakes form sleep (they spin up for a split second), and the wild and crazy high sped test they get running the hardware test form the CD.

They are a good machi9ne but it sounds as though you got a lemon. Unfortunantly it happens. I do have to say that the few problems I have had with Apple (including a repair mistake they made that no other company would probably have fixed) have all been handled correctly. I have found that if they don't trust the store itself to handle what they think is a hard to establish problem they do not want you to take it there.

My guess is they will call you back with what they think is the problem and have you try a few things whcih, if they don't work, will have you send it in. At that time i would tell them that it was just recieved and you would prefer to replace it, even with another refurb, if possible since you don't feel confidsent that the problem can be solved. They shouldn't have a problem with this since you just got it. I can see you having it for a couple of months and getting good use out of it but in this case, no. I, actually, would be surprised if they even gave you another refurb but rather I brand new one.

As for refurbs, i have bought several over the years form different companies and for the most part they are a great deal. Occansionally, you will get a dud but that usually ends up getting replaced by a brand new machine for no extra charge.

Thanks for the kind word. On the bright side, at least I din't purchase it new! If I had to deal with this on a new product, like the previous owner probably did, well, I just rather not imagine it.

The other problem is going to be giving up my PB 17" that I just sold on eBay. I wanted to use this weekend to transfer all my stuff, but I guess I now have to make a CCC of it and do it some other time when Apple provides me with a working unit.

[smelias]

As an update..

I gave the unit to an Apple store tech who then ran the unit for the whole weekend using some hardware test in loop mode. Anyway, he called me and let me know that they did not replicate any of my freezes. At that time I asked him to simply try to do a backup using apple backup and sure enough, it froze. In fact, the unit just kept on freezing, even when it was not doing anything.

Anyway, they gave me a full refund and now I am stuck with my PowerBook which was sold on eBay to a buyer who has not contacted me since the bidding was completed.

Oh well.

Anybody have any opinions on the new dual 1.8's for the same money. I am thinking that they are better made.

[Ganesha]

Originally posted by smelias:
As an update..

I gave the unit to an Apple store tech who then ran the unit for the whole weekend using some hardware test in loop mode. Anyway, he called me and let me know that they did not replicate any of my freezes. At that time I asked him to simply try to do a backup using apple backup and sure enough, it froze. In fact, the unit just kept on freezing, even when it was not doing anything.

Time to call Mulder and Scully, clearly you are giving off some G5 freezing radiation, possibly as the result of an alien implant.

[UnixMac]

Originally posted by smelias:
As an update..

I gave the unit to an Apple store tech who then ran the unit for the whole weekend using some hardware test in loop mode. Anyway, he called me and let me know that they did not replicate any of my freezes. At that time I asked him to simply try to do a backup using apple backup and sure enough, it froze. In fact, the unit just kept on freezing, even when it was not doing anything.

Anyway, they gave me a full refund and now I am stuck with my PowerBook which was sold on eBay to a buyer who has not contacted me since the bidding was completed.

Oh well.

Anybody have any opinions on the new dual 1.8's for the same money. I am thinking that they are better made.

I don't know how your $$ situation is, but I would just fork out a few hundered more and get a brand new one! if the 2.0 is too much, then the 1.8, or for that matter, try yet another re-furb.. but don't just give up! 1000s of people are running G5's with no probs!

[southtdi]

Have to agree here. The computer you got was simply a dud. Just get another one and be done with it. My dual 2.0 works perfectly fine. Go with either that or the 1.8. I belive MacMall has the left over ones on there for a bargin. Something to check out.

[SafariX]

Best of luck with rectifying the situation. My Rev. B dual 2 has been nothing short of spectacular.

[smelias]

Originally posted by southtdi:
Have to agree here. The computer you got was simply a dud. Just get another one and be done with it. My dual 2.0 works perfectly fine. Go with either that or the 1.8. I belive MacMall has the left over ones on there for a bargin. Something to check out.

Well, Apple Store Online gave me a $50 credit toward another purchase so I went ahead and ordered another refurb 2.0. I also got AppleCare with it. I hope that it works out.

[GeneShifter]

Originally posted by smelias:
Well, Apple Store Online gave me a $50 credit toward another purchase so I went ahead and ordered another refurb 2.0. I also got AppleCare with it. I hope that it works out.

How much you wanna bet that you receive back the same refurb you returned? I think you should wait a while, seriously.

[leperkuhn]

Originally posted by GeneShifter:
How much you wanna bet that you receive back the same refurb you returned? I think you should wait a while, seriously.

Oh come on, this isn't "Rusty's Backyard Computers."

[smelias]

Originally posted by GeneShifter:
How much you wanna bet that you receive back the same refurb you returned? I think you should wait a while, seriously.

Please! Don't even go there! I was hesitant at first thinking that they must be refurbs for a reason, and given my previous experience, I must be crazy, but the fact is that there are plenty of people who do not have issues and I am the gambling type.

[Briareus]

At least you got a gift certificate out of your ordeal. Now that 30" cinema display will only be $3249.

Let us know how it turns out.

(Briareus crosses fingers hoping smelias' new refurb works )

[smelias]

Originally posted by Briareus:
At least you got a gift certificate out of your ordeal. Now that 30" cinema display will only be $3249.

Let us know how it turns out.

(Briareus crosses fingers hoping smelias' new refurb works )

I appreciate your thoughts and will let everyone know how it works out.

[Inocense]

Don't fret about the refurb.. I have been running my refurb'd 1.8 dual for awhile now with no poblems at all. I am sure you just received a bad comp.. Good luck with your new one and let us know how it runs!

[Groovy]

Originally posted by smelias:
I appreciate your thoughts and will let everyone know how it works out.

just to let you know I have a 2 GHz refurb and it works great so I say you just
got a lemon. Now if your next one also freezes then maybe you do have an alien
implant giving off some G5 freezing radiation

[d0ubled0wn]

I used to have a Rev A iMac that would always freeze up at my ma's place but never at my place. I chalked it up as unclean power lines in the house. I thought about buying a UPS to test that theory but I ended up selling the iMac to a friend.

[smelias]

As an update, I received my replacement refurb G5 dual 2.0 yesterday and so far it has been as stable as the PB 17" it is replacing. However, the unit I received was configured with an Nvidia 5200 64mg instead of the Radeon 9600 64mg as advertised. I called Apple right away and since they did not have any replacement 9600's, they offered me a credit of $196 + tax=$206. This would bring the purchase price of my unit to $1,743 ($1,999-$50-$206). At first I was satisfied because I felt that I bought unit at a very good price, however, if I want to upgrade the video, it appears that I need to pay $339 for a Radeon 9800 Pro. Now this deal does not look so good. I tried to find a 9600, but I could not.

Does anybody have any suggestions what I should do? The only reason I would upgrade the card would be to play UT2004 and maybe some other game in the future, otherwise the 5200 satisfies my needs.

[reader50]

The 5200 will handle UT2004, even if the frame rates are not stellar. There will certainly be more powerful graphics cards in the future, you will be wanting something much more powerful than a 9600 soon enough.

That $200+ credit looks like a good deal to me. Pocket it today, order a midrange card in six months that is in the GeForce 6800 power range, but costs in the $200 range.

[Briareus]

Glad your struggle is coming to an end and that the new machine is working well.

I say stick with what the graphics card you have for now. It should run things fine. Nice that they gave a credit.

I saw something on xlr8yourmac recently about the ATI 9800 Pro SE 256's having some driver problems under 10.3.4 (involving mounting of optical media, FW HDs and disk images), but that it was a driver issue that should be fixed in a real-soon-now point release OSX update. Remember that the 9800 non-SE retail is an AGP 2/4x card, while the 9800 SE is an 8x AGP.

Wait for that issue to be addressed or a little bit longer for the new big Nvidia 6800.

(BTW, my refurb has the 9600 and I'm already looking forward to checking out the next round of new cards, so for you it'll just be a bigger jump in graphics power )

[OzarkMtn]

It is not in the ATI drivers, it is something that Apple will have to resolve in 10.3.5.

When Apple releases Tiger 10.4, you will definitely want a more robust video card. The 5200 will not be suitable, and the 9600 would be adequate but marginal in performance.

[smelias]

Originally posted by Briareus:
Glad your struggle is coming to an end and that the new machine is working well.

I say stick with what the graphics card you have for now. It should run things fine. Nice that they gave a credit.

I saw something on xlr8yourmac recently about the ATI 9800 Pro SE 256's having some driver problems under 10.3.4 (involving mounting of optical media, FW HDs and disk images), but that it was a driver issue that should be fixed in a real-soon-now point release OSX update. Remember that the 9800 non-SE retail is an AGP 2/4x card, while the 9800 SE is an 8x AGP.

Wait for that issue to be addressed or a little bit longer for the new big Nvidia 6800.

(BTW, my refurb has the 9600 and I'm already looking forward to checking out the next round of new cards, so for you it'll just be a bigger jump in graphics power )

Great minds think alike! That's what my original reasoning was to accept the credit, so that it would offset an inevitable upgrade to the 9800 or 6800. However, the prices right now are too steep for my liking.

Another question I have, however, is regarding the Superdrive model. I am quite certain that the G5 that I returned indicated that the superdrive was a Pioneer DVD-RW 106D, as opposed to this one which indicates that it is a Pioneer DVD-RW 107D. I am going to jump out on a limb and say that this is a good thing, no? Could the System Profiler be incorrect? Beacause it is my understanding that the new 8x drives are the Pioneer DVD-RW 107D.

[Dimitri]

It almost sounds like they gave you a newest revision PM 2.0 which comes with an 8X Superdrive and the Geforce 5200 card stock.

[smelias]

Originally posted by Dimitri:
It almost sounds like they gave you a newest revision PM 2.0 which comes with an 8X Superdrive and the Geforce 5200 card stock.

Well, it has two heat sink plates so I think it is a Rev A. Do you know how else I would be able to tell if it is a Rev A or B?

[Briareus]

I hadn't heard of any mobo/processor differences between the new vs. old dual 2's, which is why I went for a refurb rev A.

For comparison, system Profiler says my refurb is:

Machine Model: Power Mac G5
CPU Type: PowerPC 970 (2.2)
Number Of CPUs: 2
CPU Speed: 2 GHz
L2 Cache (per CPU): 512 KB
Memory: 1.5 GB
Bus Speed: 1 GHz
Boot ROM Version: 5.1.5f0

Don't know if this'll help you determine your rev. If you got a reb B, congrats. If you got a rev A with the new 107D Superdrive, congrats. It's all good

[smelias]

Originally posted by smelias:
Well, it has two heat sink plates so I think it is a Rev A. Do you know how else I would be able to tell if it is a Rev A or B?

I checked the heat sinks and I am positive that I have a Rev A G5. I probably got a late model though.