[smelias]

Hi all,

I am still considerring purchasing a new G5 but it concerns me that they use PCI-X instead of PCIe, especially when Nvidia and ATI are now migrating to the PCIe standard. Additionally, Nvidia is using this as the base to promote a cool feature called SLI which allows a user to combine two 6800 ultra's into one massive unit. This is only available on computers with PCIe.

Given that Apple has led the industry in computer innovations (3 1/4" floppy disks, optical drives, usb, firewire, trackpads etc....), it is surprising that they have not adopted PCIe as the new I/O standard. What I am expecting is that they will change this on the next revision.

What does every one think?

[mac freak]

They hopefully will...

[videian28]

true, but the 6800 by itself is nothing to scoff at

[eddiecatflap]

i'm THIS close to buying a G5

one prob

pci-e

in the future - BIG PROBLEM

[SafariX]

You guys may want to check out Anandtech's performance review of PCI-E. It indicated negligible performance gains (read: none) with regards to PCI-E with current top end graphics cards. Thats not to say future cards wont improve performance, but if the latest X800 series gfx cards dont offer gains in performance on PCI-E, there will have to be MAJOR strides in gfx cards to really see any wortwhile performance increase. 8x AGP pro is pretty robust.

[smelias]

Originally posted by SafariX:
You guys may want to check out Anandtech's performance review of PCI-E. It indicated negligible performance gains (read: none) with regards to PCI-E with current top end graphics cards. Thats not to say future cards wont improve performance, but if the latest X800 series gfx cards dont offer gains in performance on PCI-E, there will have to be MAJOR strides in gfx cards to really see any wortwhile performance increase. 8x AGP pro is pretty robust.

The problem is not performance, it's that PCI-E is going to be the next standard, and a PowerMac that I buy now, will not comply with today's standards.

However, I understand that a 6800 Ultra using 8xAGP will be more than adequate for my needs, and I will probably buy a new G5 anyway, it just pisses me off that they put me in this predicament where I am second guessing my purchase.

[Leonard]

Originally posted by smelias:
Hi all,

I am still considerring purchasing a new G5 but it concerns me that they use PCI-X instead of PCIe, especially when Nvidia and ATI are now migrating to the PCIe standard. Additionally, Nvidia is using this as the base to promote a cool feature called SLI which allows a user to combine two 6800 ultra's into one massive unit. This is only available on computers with PCIe.

This is available only on motherboards with 2 PCI-Express slots. Not too many of those around. According to Tom's Hardware it sounds like there is only one Intel board out there.

And you're not concerned that the new G5's use PCI-X instead of PCI-Express. Your concerned that the new G5's use AGP instead of PCI-Express. Get the technology straight. I don't think even Intel is replacing PCI or PCI-X with PCI-Express, yet.

Originally posted by smelias:
Hi all,
The problem is not performance, it's that PCI-E is going to be the next standard, and a PowerMac that I buy now, will not comply with today's standards.

It's not today's standard. Today's standard is AGP 8x. As you said yourself it's the next standard and current AGP 8x cards will do just as well as PCI-Express cards. And both ATI and Nvidia are going to have new AGP 8x cards for at least the next 2-3 years to sell to all those billion PC and Mac users with AGP.

[Rev-O]

Originally posted by Leonard:
<snip>
It's not today's standard. Today's standard is AGP 8x. As you said yourself it's the next standard and current AGP 8x cards will do just as well as PCI-Express cards. And both ATI and Nvidia are going to have new AGP 8x cards for at least the next 2-3 years to sell to all those billion PC and Mac users with AGP.

True enough. In my experience Mac users are more technologically demanding than PC users. True, there are a gadzillion more PC users than Mac users, and true, there are plenty of techno junkies on PC's (mostly gamers), but as a whole, the Mac crowd seems to be more technologically savy. I believe the run of the mill PC user views their computer as an appliance... and you don't upgrade your frig when a new shiny model comes out. If the migration to PCI-Express is a sudden as some people fear, ATI and Nvidia are going to lose a bunch of sales.

Before PCI-Express becomes the standard, someone is going to have to explain to all the PC users why they need to pay more for it. Besides, I think it's going to be a little bit before Dell starts selling the $599 bait-and-switch model with PCI-Express.

[Spliffdaddy]

The next 'standard' will be whatever most computer hardware manufacturers adopt.

There's really no way to predict what will happen - until it happens. Although it's starting to appear that Apple chose the wrong 'standard' in this case. They're good at that.

You risk getting stuck with a lone AGP slot and no available upgrade path (no PCI-X video cards) for the video subsystem's bandwidth.

And, no, AGP won't be around for more than another year or so. Three years out and PCI-X/PCI-e will be archaic technology.

[Leonard]

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
There's really no way to predict what will happen - until it happens. Although it's starting to appear that Apple chose the wrong 'standard' in this case. They're good at that.

Apple hasn't chosen wrong, they just haven't upgraded to PCI-Express from AGP yet. My guess is that in one of the next revisions of the G5, Apple will implement PCI-Express and PCI-X. PCI-Express being for the video card. Remember, with PCI-Express, you can't use PCI cards in a PCI-Express slot.

Originally posted by Spliffdaddy:
And, no, AGP won't be around for more than another year or so. Three years out and PCI-X/PCI-e will be archaic technology.

And this is where all this unwarranted worry comes from, is incorrect statements like this. New computer systems will be coming out with PCI-Express, but there will still be billions of AGP equipped computer systems out there for several years. AGP cards will still be around in 2-3 years. This is just like the conversion from SCSI to Firewire, Firewire 400 to Firewire 800, USB 1.x to USB 2. The transition will take a few years.

[smelias]

Originally posted by Leonard:
And you're not concerned that the new G5's use PCI-X instead of PCI-Express. Your concerned that the new G5's use AGP instead of PCI-Express. Get the technology straight. I don't think even Intel is replacing PCI or PCI-X with PCI-Express, yet.

Actually, it is my understanding that the PCI-Express will replace both APG and PCI, so that there is only one standard for expansion. However, since PCI-Extreme is not backward compatible with PCI, it make sence that they aso include PCI slots. Eventually they will only have PCI-Express. Apple, on the other hand, has decided to keep the 8xAGP port and install high speed PCI-X ports which are backward compatible with PCI hardware. Once PCI-Express becomes the standard, they will adopt it then.

[DeathMan]

Originally posted by smelias:
Actually, it is my understanding that the PCI-Express will replace both APG and PCI, so that there is only one standard for expansion. However, since PCI-Extreme is not backward compatible with PCI, it make sence that they aso include PCI slots. Eventually they will only have PCI-Express. Apple, on the other hand, has decided to keep the 8xAGP port and install high speed PCI-X ports which are backward compatible with PCI hardware. Once PCI-Express becomes the standard, they will adopt it then.

By the time we enough PCI-E expansion hardware comes out and has proliferated through the marketplacae that Mobo mfgs won't be limiting themselves backwards to include it, we'll have something even faster to plug into our computers, and the mfg won't want to limit themselves forward. So the dream of a single expansion option is just that.

[polendo]

AGP is practically gone.

Nevertheless, what is the problem? NVidia or ATI, if they do, will develop hardware for today�s Macintosh.. so if they go one way or another it doesn�t matter since you can�t use the PC hardware on the Mac.

[Big Mac]

I struggled with the same decision myself, but I ultimately came to the conclusion that PCI-e wouldn't mean that much to me. I decided to get the 9800XT and not worry about future upgrades. The fact that the 6800 came out for the G5 is good thing, since it allows us at least one more solid upgrade. But the fact of the matter is, I usually don't upgrade my graphics card, so it doesn't make sense to worry about PCI-e. Moreover, even if the current G5s did have PCI-e, future upgrade paths would probably limited. This is the Mac platform we're talking about, here, and if you've been on the Mac platform long enough you'll realize that our graphics card upgrade options are quite limited. We usually have only one, or perhaps two, graphics card upgrade options, and usually those options are overpriced. While I was still considering waiting, my G5 shipped early, and I have been delighted by it. The loss of productivity due to staying with my much older machine would have just been unbearable. Moreover, there is little guarantee that Apple will upgrade to PCI-e any time soon anyway; if you look at recent history, Apple's hasn't exactly been implementing new technology quickly (DDR, Firewire 800, USB2, etc). Those who plan to wait could easily be stuck waiting a year or even more. So if you need a new Mac now, get it and don't look back. But if you have a recent Mac that still serves your needs, you probably don't need to upgrade yet. It's all about opportunity cost.

[olePigeon]

PCMag or whoever it was that got the exclusive on Doom 3 said that PCI-Express made almost no difference in performance over AGP.

I think PCI-Express is currently ahead of itself in bandwith. It may make a difference in SCSI RAID cards who'll be moving form PCI-X to a PCI-Express with a LOT more bandwith, but when moving from AGP 8x to PCI-Express, the current crop of video cards and/or games aren't taking full advantage.

I guess we'll have to wait and see how games and cards after Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Halo 2, 6800s, and x800s do.