[goMac]

Originally Posted by Weezer 

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

Wow, that's pretty much the exact thing I said that SWG told me was a load of crap...

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

A deal was nearly secured with Fox, which had been having trouble with Blu-ray disc production due to the lack of manufacturing infrastructure. At the 11th hour, Fox went to Sony with its concerns and received a reported $120 million payout to stay with Blu-ray.

So this guy is saying that Fox is blaming their title delays on the lack of Blu-ray manufacturing infrastructure? Funny how every studio other than Fox hasn't had any major issues releasing their titles on the announced release date. I still find the Fox rumor hard to believe, given how adamant they were about copy protection and region coding.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The 360 started turning a profit last year.

The division, not the hardware, right?

I'd be amazed if MS could make any profit on that box at its current price, but then I'd be amazed if that blogger is right and PS3 is already sold at cost.

I think that if that was true, then they'd slash the price another $50.

[Helmling]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Wow, that's pretty much the exact thing I said that SWG told me was a load of crap...

But then again, this guy was an HD-DVD camper, so it might also be the same batch of sour grapes.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

The division, not the hardware, right?

I'd be amazed if MS could make any profit on that box at its current price, but then I'd be amazed if that blogger is right and PS3 is already sold at cost.

I think that if that was true, then they'd slash the price another $50.

Nope, the hardware turns a profit but the division is losing (and has never made) money.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Helmling 

The division, not the hardware, right?

The division. It wouldn't surprise me if they were making money on the hardware though...

[mrtew]

Duh, I'm a little slow, but if they're making money on the hardware then what are they losing money on???

[Shaddim]

Hookers and blow, duh?

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Hookers and blow, duh?

A Microsoft division? Hardly. Maybe mint condition Star Wars action figures and collectible cards...

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Duh, I'm a little slow, but if they're making money on the hardware then what are they losing money on???

It could possibly be the $1 billion warranty extension.

The hardware itself is sold for a profit, but that doesn't mean each console is making Microsoft a profit over the (short?) life of the console.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Duh, I'm a little slow, but if they're making money on the hardware then what are they losing money on???

There's more to the business than just the hardware. Things like Xbox Live, distribution costs, promotion costs, licensing and other things can really add up. And of course the warranty extension that jokell82 mentioned.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by icruise 

There's more to the business than just the hardware. Things like Xbox Live, distribution costs, promotion costs, licensing and other things can really add up. And of course the warranty extension that jokell82 mentioned.

That makes no sense. Can someone explain it better please.

New subject regarding Blu-ray.... There's a lot of stuff on TV that is broadcast in HD but is not available on HD-DVD nor on Blu-Ray. How far off is the technology to capture this stuff and burn it onto Blu-ray? I'd like to see Battlestar Razor on HD for example and I guess some markets may see it in HD. I want a copy. Legalities aside, is it possible at this time to make Blu-rays of it?

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

That makes no sense. Can someone explain it better please.

New subject regarding Blu-ray.... There's a lot of stuff on TV that is broadcast in HD but is not available on HD-DVD nor on Blu-Ray. How far off is the technology to capture this stuff and burn it onto Blu-ray? I'd like to see Battlestar Razor on HD for example and I guess some markets may see it in HD. I want a copy. Legalities aside, is it possible at this time to make Blu-rays of it?

Explain it better? The XBox division has more costs than just the hardware. Those costs are greater than the money they currently make on the hardware. Therefor the division loses money.

And I know that you can do that with HD DVD, but I don't know about Blu-Ray.

[icruise]

OK, imagine that you sell lemonade. The first day, you ended up wasting a lot of money on the lemonade because you bought lemons directly from the grocery store and you had to do some experimenting to get the recipe right. Each glass cost you $1 to make, even though the most you thought you could charge was $0.50. So you lost $0.50 for each glass you sold.

The next day, you found a cheap supplier of lemons and you knew what you were doing so you didn't waste any. You could make each glass for only $0.25 and sold them for $0.50. So now your business is in the clear, right?

Nope. You forgot that you still have to pay for wood that you used to build your lemonade stand, for the paper and crayons to make the signs advertising it, and you have to pay your little brother to run the stand while you are busy. So even though the product costs less than you are selling it for, you still end up losing money on the deal. It's the same idea with Microsoft and the Xbox.

[mrtew]

Originally Posted by icruise 

There's more to the business than just the hardware. Things like Xbox Live, distribution costs, promotion costs, licensing and other things can really add up. And of course the warranty extension that jokell82 mentioned.

Geez, I shouldn't have asked! I didn't mean explain it like I'm an idiot, I mean better! I think promotion costs and distribution are costs that are figured into whether the hardware is making of profit. Licencing makes them money, it doesn't cost them. X-box live seems like it'd be pure profit. The warrantee issue only cropped up this year and that would be subtracted from the hardware profits as well. What other division of the x-box could be losing money if the x-box hardware itself is making money? P.S. I'm kinda looking for someone that knows... not random guesses or simplistic explanations of how a business works.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

I think promotion costs and distribution are costs that are figured into whether the hardware is making of profit.

They're not. The only thing that factors into the hardware making a profit is if the component costs are less than the selling price. Nothing more.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

That makes no sense. Can someone explain it better please.

New subject regarding Blu-ray.... There's a lot of stuff on TV that is broadcast in HD but is not available on HD-DVD nor on Blu-Ray. How far off is the technology to capture this stuff and burn it onto Blu-ray? I'd like to see Battlestar Razor on HD for example and I guess some markets may see it in HD. I want a copy. Legalities aside, is it possible at this time to make Blu-rays of it?

It is not possible to make full-spec Blu-ray discs at home.

I'm no BD burning expert, but here is how I understand it. There are two main forms Blu-ray recording, BDAV and BDMV. BDMV is what you find on the discs you buy at stores, and they contain AACS DRM. BDAV is basically what you get when you burn AVCHD from camcorders onto recordable media.

The problem is that BDAV is not part of the mandatory Blu-ray specification, which means if you burn a BDAV disc, it won't play on some players. It should play on the PS3, but it won't work on some standalones, which effectively makes it useless IMHO. So why not just burn BDMV? Cuz you can't. It requires AACS encryption.

So, that's OK, just stick with BDAV, and buy a player that supports BDAV, right? Well, sorta, but you can't trade discs with some other BD owners, cuz the discs may not work. Furthermore, BDAV has extremely limited menu support. Super stripped down support, with less complexity allowed than even just DVD.

In other words, Blu-ray disc burning for home movie use is a complete disaster as it stands today. This is a huge problem IMO, unless things change.

In contrast, you can make HD DVDs of that stuff just fine, and they'll work on any standalone HD DVD player. In fact, you can even burn it to DVD-R and it will still work fine in any standalone HD DVD players.

EDIT:

This is not entirely correct (but is mostly correct). See my post below.

[brassplayersrock²]

well i just helped the blu camp by buying lethal weapon ($15) and casino royal($30)

edit:
if anyone finds a place that has 3:10 to yuma or dragon wars for blu-ray let me know! Best Buy is out for both

[icruise]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Geez, I shouldn't have asked! I didn't mean explain it like I'm an idiot, I mean better! I think promotion costs and distribution are costs that are figured into whether the hardware is making of profit. Licencing makes them money, it doesn't cost them. X-box live seems like it'd be pure profit. The warrantee issue only cropped up this year and that would be subtracted from the hardware profits as well. What other division of the x-box could be losing money if the x-box hardware itself is making money? P.S. I'm kinda looking for someone that knows... not random guesses or simplistic explanations of how a business works.

OK I'm done trying to help you.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by mrtew 

Geez, I shouldn't have asked! I didn't mean explain it like I'm an idiot, I mean better! I think promotion costs and distribution are costs that are figured into whether the hardware is making of profit. Licencing makes them money, it doesn't cost them. X-box live seems like it'd be pure profit. The warrantee issue only cropped up this year and that would be subtracted from the hardware profits as well. What other division of the x-box could be losing money if the x-box hardware itself is making money? P.S. I'm kinda looking for someone that knows... not random guesses or simplistic explanations of how a business works.

There lots of different cost and expenses associate with making a product, taking it to the market, and selling it.

Research and Development - Got to pay the engineers who design the xbox
Component cost - Cost of all the components that make up the xbox
Manufacturing cost - Cost to make the xbox
Licensing cost - Cost of the licensing technologies such as USB and DVD
Packaging cost - Cost of the packaging for the xbox
Promotional & Marketing cost - Cost to promote your product
Distribution cost - Cost to get it into the retail stores and online stores.
Warranty & Support cost - Cost of the support and fixing the xbox under warranty
Administrative cost - Cost of paying employees to manage day to day operations
Other business expenses - Insurance, rent, utilities, and so forth


I'm assuming when they are calculating the cost to make the xbox 360, it only includes component cost, licensing cost, and manufacturing cost. There still lots of overhead besides the cost of making the xbox 360. Same thing applies to the PS3.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by Eug 

It is not possible to make full-spec Blu-ray discs at home.

I'm no BD burning expert, but here is how I understand it. There are two main forms Blu-ray recording, BDAV and BDMV. BDMV is what you find on the discs you buy at stores, and they contain AACS DRM. BDAV is basically what you get when you burn AVCHD from camcorders onto recordable media.

The problem is that BDAV is not part of the mandatory Blu-ray specification, which means if you burn a BDAV disc, it won't play on some players. It should play on the PS3, but it won't work on some standalones, which effectively makes it useless IMHO. So why not just burn BDMV? Cuz you can't. It requires AACS encryption.

So, that's OK, just stick with BDAV, and buy a player that supports BDAV, right? Well, sorta, but you can't trade discs with some other BD owners, cuz the discs may not work. Furthermore, BDAV has extremely limited menu support. Super stripped down support, with less complexity allowed than even just DVD.

In other words, Blu-ray disc burning for home movie use is a complete disaster as it stands today. This is a huge problem IMO, unless things change.

In contrast, you can make HD DVDs of that stuff just fine, and they'll work on any standalone HD DVD player. In fact, you can even burn it to DVD-R and it will still work fine in any standalone HD DVD players.

Update:

Things have changed somewhat. My info is a few months old. I'm told the BD manufacturers are now updating players to support BDMV on conventional media, so that AACS is no longer required for home-burned BDMV stuff. I don't know how many players out there have gotten the update yet though, but apparently it works on the PS3.

However, there are three caveats:

1) This will only work with home movie type stuff and not with ripped material, even off TiVo. I guess this is to protect the commercial content. For that you need to have AACS-approved media, which will cost more but which doesn't exist yet.

2) Not all standalone Blu-ray players work with BD-R/BD-RE at all. I was shocked to learn this, but I kid you not. Bizarro.

3) By "conventional media" I mean BD-R/BD-RE, and not DVD-R. For some reason most players do not support Blu-ray burned to DVD-R.

I guess this is the reason that Apple has not yet incorporated Blu-ray burning support to DVD-R in its software, and the same reason Apple has not yet incorporated non-DRM'd AVC Blu-ray DVD-R playback support in DVD Player.app either. They can't, because the discs simply wouldn't work with most Blu-ray players, and it would just cause more trouble to Apple than it's worth.

In contrast, this has been a non-issue on the HD DVD side, which is why Apple has implemented it on HD DVD (including on DVD-R media).

[Oversoul]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

well i just helped the blu camp by buying lethal weapon ($15) and casino royal($30)

edit:
if anyone finds a place that has 3:10 to yuma or dragon wars for blu-ray let me know! Best Buy is out for both

Amazon has Casino Royale for $19.49. Definitely check Amazon as they quite frequently have sales and buy one get one free deals. Also can't beat no tax or shipping.

[brassplayersrock²]

no shipping? what do I pay for then?

thanks for the heads-up. Unfortunately I'm the type of buyer that likes to have in hand what I pay for. I'll give amazon a shot though

[cSurfr]

Originally Posted by brassplayersrock² 

no shipping? what do I pay for then?

thanks for the heads-up. Unfortunately I'm the type of buyer that likes to have in hand what I pay for. I'll give amazon a shot though

I am the exact same way, but sometimes it's worth the wait. Amazon's fire sales are always great. It also helps when you live about an hour or two from a shipping center

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Wow, that's pretty much the exact thing I said that SWG told me was a load of crap...

Sorry but the only cost you need to worry about is the pile of HD-DVD disks and stand along players HD owners have.

Us Blu-ray supporters are quite happy.

The Far Side of Tech � The Forgotten Format War: Toshiba’s "DVD-Audio" vs Sony’s "Super Audio CD"

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

The Far Side of Tech � The Forgotten Format War: Toshiba’s "DVD-Audio" vs Sony’s "Super Audio CD"

So, what are you getting at with that link?

Cuz I think has almost no parallel to the video format war.

DVD-Audio and SACD both were destined to fail right from the start. Many of us said this when they came out and we got to test them. I bought a few DVD-A discs just to check it out, but I had no belief whatsoever that it would take off in any major way. SACD was the same way.

P.S. SACD on an average system sounds pretty much the same as CD to me. (My friend had SACD and $10000 speakers and I still didn't notice much difference.)

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Sorry but the only cost you need to worry about is the pile of HD-DVD disks and stand along players HD owners have.

Us Blu-ray supporters are quite happy.

The Far Side of Tech � The Forgotten Format War: Toshiba’s "DVD-Audio" vs Sony’s "Super Audio CD"

I must agree... both DVD-Audio and SACD were DOA. Most consumers couldn't hear the difference as compared to an average CD, you can't rip the music, too few players, etc. etc. etc.

HD-DVD/BRD offer superior sound AND video as compared to DVD.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by Eug 

So, what are you getting at with that link?

What is wrong with posting it? It is another format war where both sides lost.

[hyteckit]

Well, you guys haven't heard 5.1 channel sound offer by DVD-A and SACD.

Most consumers aren't audiophiles with $10k sound systems. Most people are happy with CDs. Hell, lots of teenagers and people under 40 are trading quality for convenience. MP3, AAC, and digital downloads are replacing CDs. It's even lower quantity than CDs.

Having said that, I do think Hidef physical media will be much more successful than DVD-A and SACD. However, Hidef physical media will never be as successful as DVD. I don't think Hidef physical media such as Blu-ray or HDDVD will be able to achieve half the market penetration that DVD is able to achieve.

The reason is that Hidef physical media has a lot more competition than DVD when it first came out. When DVD first came out, there was no VOD, IPTV, and iTunes. If you wanted to watch a movie that is not on cable, tv, or satellite, you had to go buy it from the store or rent it from a video rental store. Either way, it's physical media.

If you wanted to watch a movie today, you have more choices than just buying to movie from the store or renting it from a local video rental store. You have VOD from cable and satellite companies. You have iTunes and other video download service. You have IPTV from AT&T and other companies.

There are a number of people who are saying internet broadband is not ready for hidef downloads. Guess what, most consumer don't really care that much about hidef and are happy with their DVD. If they can get DVD quality video downloads they are happy. They are willing to trade hidef quality for convenience. They can watch the movie or TV show on their PSP, cell phones, and other portable media devices. Those who absolutely want hidef and are not satisfy with DVD quality video will buy hidef physical media. However, that is a smart percentage of consumers.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

What is wrong with posting it? It is another format war where both sides lost.

Nothing wrong with posting it but you posted it with no context.

However, if you think it's going to be a predictor of the hi-def video war, I think it is isn't a good example, for the reasons I've cited.

[goMac]

I know a lot of people who pretty much exclusively use On Demand. Given my hate of the evil evil cable companies, I don't use it and do anything I can to avoid having an actual STB from the cable company.

[Eug]

Heh. I have 4 set top cable boxes for my place, 2 of which are PVRs and 3 of which are HD.

I guess I value cable more than I do HD optical discs.

However, I never use On Demand. I think I've used it once in my life at home... because they gave me a free one.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Heh. I have 4 set top cable boxes for my place, 2 of which are PVRs and 3 of which are HD.

The cable company and I have a tentative understanding. I have basic cable and cable internet, but I'm moving in June and will certainly be taking FIOS availability into account when deciding where specifically I want to move.

[mitchell_pgh]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Heh. I have 4 set top cable boxes for my place, 2 of which are PVRs and 3 of which are HD.

I guess I value cable more than I do HD optical discs.

However, I never use On Demand. I think I've used it once in my life at home... because they gave me a free one.

I feel just the opposite. I gave up cable about a year ago, and there are only a few things I miss... and even those to go video eventually.

DVDs and the weather are the only reason I keep a TV.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

I love how they give their typical fishy marketshare numbers and think cheap players is what people want. Didn't work for the past 18 months but whatever.

HD DVD fires back, slashes hardware & software prices - Engadget

[exca1ibur]

Liquidation?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I love how they give their typical fishy marketshare numbers and think cheap players is what people want. Didn't work for the past 18 months but whatever.

Ummmm... Are you saying people don't want cheap players? I believe people wanting cheap players in a running theme in this thread.

Regardless, those are some great prices on HD-DVD players that are very good DVD upscalers. I know several people who are still interested in HD-DVD titles that might be interested in the price dropped players.

[icruise]

People want cheap players, but cheap players aren't going to win the war.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by icruise 

People want cheap players, but cheap players aren't going to win the war.

Everything up til now confirms that observation.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Ummmm... Are you saying people don't want cheap players? I believe people wanting cheap players in a running theme in this thread.

Oh sure people would love to pay less for a player but the market has proven that it isn't the deciding factor in these format wars. The HD players have always been cheap and look how well it worked out for them.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh sure people would love to pay less for a player but the market has proven that it isn't the deciding factor in these format wars. The HD players have always been cheap and look how well it worked out for them.

Honestly, HD-DVD only lost because the Bluray camp paid out more money. Both Warner and Fox had HD-DVD as their first choice. It had nothing at all to do with consumer choice.

[exca1ibur]

This whole mentality of Toshiba tends to remind me of the IBM & Microsoft in the 70's. IBM thought all the money was in the hardware and Microsoft in software. According to the market, once again, software sells hardware.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, HD-DVD only lost because the Bluray camp paid out more money. Both Warner and Fox had HD-DVD as their first choice. It had nothing at all to do with consumer choice.

You're right. The consumers resoundingly chose neither.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, HD-DVD only lost because the Bluray camp paid out more money. Both Warner and Fox had HD-DVD as their first choice. It had nothing at all to do with consumer choice.

Oh what a load of bull you don't even have any proof to base that one. The past 18 months people haven't been snapping up PS3's and BR Movies because Sony paid out more money. It is because it is what consumers wanted in terms of studio support.

If anything HD DVD has stuck around this long because they give away their players and movies away for free from day one and lets not forget the $150 mil they boned out to paramount which now backfired nicely

And if you think having paramount and Universal is going to save HD: "you might want to look at the upcoming release schedule where there are a combined five titles between both studios for 2008 currently on the schedule."

HD DVD and Blu-ray releases on January 15th, 2008 - Engadget HD

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh what a load of bull you don't even have any proof to base that one. The past 18 months people haven't been snapping up PS3's and BR Movies because Sony paid out more money. It is because it is what consumers wanted in terms of studio support.

If anything HD DVD has stuck around this long because they give away their players and movies away for free from day one and lets not forget the $150 mil they boned out to paramount which now backfired nicely

And if you think having paramount and Universal is going to save HD: "you might want to look at the upcoming release schedule where there are a combined five titles between both studios for 2008 currently on the schedule."

HD DVD and Blu-ray releases on January 15th, 2008 - Engadget HD

Nobody has been "snapping up BR movies" just like no one was snapping up HD DVD movies. Both formats sell way too few copies to be considered a success.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh what a load of bull you don't even have any proof to base that one. The past 18 months people haven't been snapping up PS3's and BR Movies because Sony paid out more money. It is because it is what consumers wanted in terms of studio support.

If anything HD DVD has stuck around this long because they give away their players and movies away for free from day one and lets not forget the $150 mil they boned out to paramount which now backfired nicely

And if you think having paramount and Universal is going to save HD: "you might want to look at the upcoming release schedule where there are a combined five titles between both studios for 2008 currently on the schedule."

HD DVD and Blu-ray releases on January 15th, 2008 - Engadget HD

Let's do this again...

Originally Posted by Weezer 

so close to what should have been:

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

Fox and Warner *this* close to going HD-DVD....

[climber]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, HD-DVD only lost because the Bluray camp paid out more money. Both Warner and Fox had HD-DVD as their first choice. It had nothing at all to do with consumer choice.

Yea right! Even if that was true it's because the Blu-ray camp had more money to burn.... because they consistently outsold HD-DVD almost 2 to 1.

Or consider for a moment that some people (most) would rather have more space allowing a better picture and better sound instead of seeing Michael Moore's face in the corner of the film.

[climber]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Let's do this again...

Do you honestly believe those two studios are considering switching back anytime in the near future? That would be the death of both formats.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by climber 

Do you honestly believe those two studios are considering switching back anytime in the near future? That would be the death of both formats.

No, I don't, and no where did I say I thought they would be switching back. My point is that the format war wasn't resolved by consumer choice or studio choice, it was resolved by money. It's absurd to argue that Bluray one because it was the consumer format of choice.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by climber 

Or consider for a moment that some people (most) would rather have more space allowing a better picture and better sound instead of seeing Michael Moore's face in the corner of the film.

There was a lot of cool stuff done with HDi, most notably the Star Trek HD-DVD's.

And yes, I would like to have directory commentary better integrated with the movies. Anyone who has listened to the Battlestar Galactica directors commentary podcasts should be able to understand...