[climber]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No, I don't, and no where did I say I thought they would be switching back. My point is that the format war wasn't resolved by consumer choice or studio choice, it was resolved by money. It's absurd to argue that Bluray one because it was the consumer format of choice.

It was a question based on your chosen quote. Where did I accuse you of saying anything?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by climber 

You mean those pesky customers that kept doing stupid things like buying twice as many blue as red?

Why do you keep arguing this point as if sales of movie titles had any bearing at all in the studio's decisions? It's already been shown they didn't.

Originally Posted by climber 

It was a question base on your chosen quote. Where did I accuse you of saying anything.

Because it's kind of a strange question to ask. The article already addressed why Warner went Bluray.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Why do you keep arguing this point as if sales of movie titles had any bearing at all in the studio's de

Nobody offered me money to buy a PS3 or any of the movies. BR beat HD's 8 month lead in one month after the PS3 shipped and again it had nothing to do with studio's bribing anyone.

You are just taking a sour grapes aprotch now saying BR bought there way into victory with your assumptions.

The only recent payoff that is known is with Paramount to HD.

[icruise]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No, I don't, and no where did I say I thought they would be switching back. My point is that the format war wasn't resolved by consumer choice or studio choice, it was resolved by money. It's absurd to argue that Bluray one because it was the consumer format of choice.

Maybe, but it's even more absurd to argue that the format with a fraction of the installed base and half the software sales was the consumer format of choice. So in that sense, I guess Blu-ray was in fact the choice of consumers (at least those who care about HD, which is admittedly a small subset of the whole).

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

No, I don't, and no where did I say I thought they would be switching back. My point is that the format war wasn't resolved by consumer choice or studio choice, it was resolved by money. It's absurd to argue that Bluray one because it was the consumer format of choice.

I still can't get over what a load of crap that is. BR has outsold HD in disks sales for 12 months straight because that is what consumers CHOSE they wanted even if they had to pay TWICE AS MUCH for it.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Maybe, but it's even more absurd to argue that the format with a fraction of the installed base and half the software sales was the consumer format of choice. So in that sense, I guess Blu-ray was in fact the choice of consumers (at least those who care about HD, which is admittedly a small subset of the whole).

I'm not sure. I think Bluray owners were more likely to buy more titles. HD-DVD players outsold Bluray players (and the PS3 attach rates were low), yet Bluray continued to sell more discs. It's really to only way to explain that. In that respect, it was all sort of a wash. There was no guarantee that when Bluray went mass market that your average consumer would continue the trend.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I still can't get over what a load of crap that is. BR has outsold HD in disks sales for 12 months straight because that is what consumers CHOSE they wanted even if they had to pay TWICE AS MUCH for it.

Again, this didn't factor at all into the studio's decisions. Yes, BR outsold HD-DVD, but in the end the studios didn't care and even tried to go HD-DVD.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, this didn't factor at all into the studio's decisions. Yes, BR outsold HD-DVD, but in the end the studios didn't care and even tried to go HD-DVD.

How so? They went with the format that sold more content for them to make more money? Do you not agree that is a good business decision?

[Dakar the Fourth]

This is awful.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

How so? They went with the format that sold more content for them to make more money?

Huh? They were in a position to decide which format would make money. Your comment doesn't make any sense. Already numerous sources have said the reason Warner went Bluray was because Fox was paid off.

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Do you not agree that is a good business decision?

I'm disheartened it came down to money and didn't come down to studio or consumer preference.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, this didn't factor at all into the studio's decisions. Yes, BR outsold HD-DVD, but in the end the studios didn't care and even tried to go HD-DVD.

Oh you mean the cash out by Paramount.

[jokell82]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh you mean the cash out by Paramount.

No, he means the cash payout to Fox.

[starman]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I'm disheartened it came down to money and didn't come down to studio or consumer preference.

Consumer preference in a niche market already filled with confusion would have taken forever.

I don't care who wins, so long as I don't have to worry about supporting two formats. Anyone should realize that it's a win-win for both the studios and the consumers if only one version wins. VHS/Beta was a bitch in the day.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Oh you mean the cash out by Paramount.

The cash payout to Fox bothers me because Fox actually chose HD-DVD until they were paid out. In other words, we're getting stuck with the format that even Fox thought was the worse format.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Smart promo:

Select Blu-ray titles offering $10 back if you own DVD version - Engadget HD

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

The cash payout to Fox bothers me because Fox actually chose HD-DVD until they were paid out. In other words, we're getting stuck with the format that even Fox thought was the worse format.

Well you go cry about that while we puzzle over why paramount goes HD-DVD when the PS3 is dropping in price as BR outsells HD for 11 months straight.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Huh? They were in a position to decide which format would make money. Your comment doesn't make any sense. Already numerous sources have said the reason Warner went Bluray was because Fox was paid off.



I'm disheartened it came down to money and didn't come down to studio or consumer preference.

HD-DVD got outsold every month from the time it hit the market. Paramount tried to force the position and it still didn't do anything. Warner waited for the holidays, and it still did nothing. Am I the only one seeing a pattern here? Studios care about movie sales not hardware sales and that never changed.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

HD-DVD got outsold every month from the time it hit the market. Paramount tried to force the position and it still didn't do anything. Warner waited for the holidays, and it still did nothing. Am I the only one seeing a pattern here? Studios care about movie sales not hardware sales and that never changed.

Again, your argument doesn't make sense. Both Warner and Fox indicated they preferred HD-DVD.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Well you go cry about that while we puzzle over why paramount goes HD-DVD when the PS3 is dropping in price as BR outsells HD for 11 months straight.

Yes. Because the PS3 has dramatically undercut everyone else.

[icruise]

Does anyone else think it's strange that the guy who seems to be taking HD-DVD's defeat the hardest doesn't even own an HD movie player?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Does anyone else think it's strange that the guy who seems to be taking HD-DVD's defeat the hardest doesn't even own an HD movie player?

I'm not taking it really all that hard. I'm more disappointed that Warner and Fox's choice to go Bluray had nothing at all to do with the formats themselves. I was hoping that the next round would lead to more consumer use upgrades over DVD.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Again, your argument doesn't make sense. Both Warner and Fox indicated they preferred HD-DVD.:

What is so hard to comprehend? So, they should pick the format with the least sales and HOPE of selling more content? What kinda of business is decision is that.

The only thing I remember Fox publicly saying said they wanted higher level copy protection and region coding. Which is something that HD-DVD doesn't have. Fox didn't do anything for months waiting on BD+ to get worked out. Where did they ever say they preffered HD-DVD, or Warner?

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Does anyone else think it's strange that the guy who seems to be taking HD-DVD's defeat the hardest doesn't even own an HD movie player?

No kidding, it seems personal.

[Dakar the Fourth]

Originally Posted by icruise 

Does anyone else think it's strange that the guy who seems to be taking HD-DVD's defeat the hardest doesn't even own an HD movie player?

Oh god. You're kidding me. Why do you people even respond to him at this point?

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

The only thing I remember Fox publicly saying said they wanted higher level copy protection and region coding. Which is something that HD-DVD doesn't have. Fox didn't do anything for months waiting on BD+ to get worked out. Where did they ever say they preffered HD-DVD, or Warner?

: sigh :

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

Obviously, they had decided to change -- they just didn't know the direction. Given their long partnership, Warner gave Toshiba an opportunity to lure a Blu-ray studio to HD DVD, in which case they would go HD DVD exclusive and give HD DVD a clear studio advantage. A deal was nearly secured with Fox, which had been having trouble with Blu-ray disc production due to the lack of manufacturing infrastructure. At the 11th hour, Fox went to Sony with its concerns and received a reported $120 million payout to stay with Blu-ray.

With no studio joining them on the HD DVD side, Warner's hand was forced and it went with Blu-ray, receiving a reported $500 million for doing so.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

No kidding, it seems personal.

I wasn't planning on buying a standalone player. Rather, I was going to buy a HD-DVD drive as soon as managed copy was implemented on the computer side. Given that managed copy was never finished, I never purchased.

Not that hard to understand.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

: sigh :

Sound Advice: Blu-ray wins in format war, but at what cost?

sigh:

Don Lindich is a national columnist and creator of the "Digital Made Easy" book series.

aka.. an opinion.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Yes. Because the PS3 has dramatically undercut everyone else.

Wait a minute, for the past 99 pages you kept saying nobody was buying PS3's for BR now you are saying because of the PS3 the war was won?

And you want to talk undercutting Toshiba has done it from day 1 by also selling stand alone players at a loss plus 10 movies.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Fyi: Seriously Everyone, Don't Buy The 360's HD DVD Add-on

[Dakar the Fourth]

The price is a rip-off anyway.

[hyteckit]

What's HDDVD needs right now is more BOGO sales and cheaper movie prices.

1 million HDDVD player owner. Get each one of them to buy 2 movies and that's 2 million movies sold. That's close to half of how much bluray sold for the whole year of 2007 with all its BOGO sales.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Wait a minute, for the past 99 pages you kept saying nobody was buying PS3's for BR now you are saying because of the PS3 the war was won?

And you want to talk undercutting Toshiba has done it from day 1 by also selling stand alone players at a loss plus 10 movies.

Obviously my sarcasm is lost despite the .

[goMac]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What's HDDVD needs right now is more BOGO sales and cheaper movie prices.

1 million HDDVD player owner. Get each one of them to buy 2 movies and that's 2 million movies sold. That's close to half of how much bluray sold for the whole year of 2007 with all its BOGO sales.

Honestly, the only way for HD-DVD to stay alive would be to drop the A2's price to $99. HD-DVD would need to change strategies and stop competing with Bluray, and go for competing directly with DVD instead. If they could match the prices of upscaling DVD players, they get people interested in just an upscaler to buy an HD-DVD player instead, and then be better position to transition DVD consumers over.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Obviously my sarcasm is lost despite the .

Good way to avoid answering then

I think Hd-DVD doesn't even stand a chance in hell as a desktop media format either. With BR popularity growing it is only a matter of time before BR-R drives start shipping in computers.

With consumers then having BR at home for movies and BR players or writers in their computer why would they want to get another completely different format with less capacity and fewer people they can share media with?

None.

And no $99 drives and "managed copy" isn't going to help at all.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, the only way for HD-DVD to stay alive would be to drop the A2's price to $99. HD-DVD would need to change strategies and stop competing with Bluray, and go for competing directly with DVD instead. If they could match the prices of upscaling DVD players, they get people interested in just an upscaler to buy an HD-DVD player instead, and then be better position to transition DVD consumers over.

Well, they got to sell movies man. It's wouldn't matter to the studios if there were 5 million HDDVD owners, but no one bought HDDVD movies. People would just use the HDDVD player to play DVDs.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

"Joone, the founder of the video label, says they're dropping it not just because Warner and other companies switched, but because their Blu-ray titles actually outsold HD DVDs already. "

Format War: Porn Studio Ditches HD DVD for Blu-ray in 2008

[goMac]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

I think Hd-DVD doesn't even stand a chance in hell as a desktop media format either. With BR popularity growing it is only a matter of time before BR-R drives start shipping in computers.

A Bluray drive shipping in a computer? God forbid anyone do that. I certainly don't know of any companies like Dell or Alienware who ship Bluray drives in their computers.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

With consumers then having BR at home for movies and BR players or writers in their computer why would they want to get another completely different format with less capacity and fewer people they can share media with?

I'm not sure I was debating this (I don't plan on using optical media, have I mentioned that? I just want to rip..), but as Eug has mentioned, Bluray does not have a standard for consumer video burning.

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

And no $99 drives and "managed copy" isn't going to help at all.

If they finished managed copy, I'd go out and buy a few HD-DVD drives immediately and start ripping. And for your average consumer, if they can buy a $99 HD-DVD player and upscale their existing DVD's, HD-DVD's title shortage becomes less of a huge deal.

I'm not saying that managed copy will be finished at this point, or that a $99 HD-DVD player will happen in the near future though...

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

Well, they got to sell movies man. It's wouldn't matter to the studios if there were 5 million HDDVD owners, but no one bought HDDVD movies. People would just use the HDDVD player to play DVDs.

I'm not sure that's a bad thing. You'd have a very large base of potential HD-DVD users who would happily continue to buy HD-DVD players because they can upscale DVD's nicely. Unlike the PS3, you'd know they're actually buying the thing for movies.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Eug 

P.S. SACD on an average system sounds pretty much the same as CD to me. (My friend had SACD and $10000 speakers and I still didn't notice much difference.)

How was it attached? What type of DACs? What were the speakers? $10K can get you a decent pair, my old B&Ws were in that range.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

I'm not sure that's a bad thing. You'd have a very large base of potential HD-DVD users who would happily continue to buy HD-DVD players because they can upscale DVD's nicely. Unlike the PS3, you'd know they're actually buying the thing for movies.

All that matters to the studios in the next few months is movies sales. More cheap $99 HDDVD players won't help. Since the $99 HDDVD player plays existing DVDs and upscales well, what's the incentive for the consumer to spend twice as much for the HDDVD version of the same movie that is available on DVD? The customers who jump in on the $99 HDDVD player are the same ones looking for cheap prices. You won't be able to convince them to pay $30 on a HDDVD movie that they can get for $15 for the DVD version.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

All that matters to the studios in the next few months is movies sales. More cheap $99 HDDVD players won't help. Since the $99 HDDVD player plays existing DVDs and upscales well, what's the incentive for the consumer to spend twice as much for the HDDVD version of the same movie that is available on DVD? The customers who jump in on the $99 HDDVD player are the same ones looking for cheap prices. You won't be able to convince them to pay $30 on a HDDVD movie that they can get for $15 for the DVD version.

Honestly, HD-DVD vs. Bluray is done. If HD-DVD wants to survive, they're going to need to change their focus. There is no way in hell HD-DVD is going to beat Bluray in sales from this point on.

[Mrjinglesusa]

@ goMac:

Why do you even care? You don't own a HD player and thus haven't purchased any HD movies, Blu-ray or HD DVD. Were you too afraid to pick a side? Myself, I've been format neutral from the beginning because I love movies in HD. PS3 + Toshiba XA-2 is high-def movie bliss. I don't really care that HD DVD is going to go away. The movies I have will still play and the XA-2 is a fantastic up-converting DVD player. The PS3 is no slouch at up-conversion either. For the record, I bought the PS3 primarily as a Blu-ray player, not for gaming.

Again, I ask, why do you care and why do you spend so much time posting about Blu-ray vs. HD DVD when you don't even own a high-def player or any movies? It doesn't make any sense. I can understand people getting involved in the debate who chose a side and are now trying to defend it, but I really can't understand why you are so adament that HD DVD is the greatest thing ever and somehow it got screwed out of winning the format war.

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by goMac 

Honestly, HD-DVD vs. Bluray is done. If HD-DVD wants to survive, they're going to need to change their focus. There is no way in hell HD-DVD is going to beat Bluray in sales from this point on.

What's the purpose of Toshiba selling a whole bunch of HDDVD players for $99 if no one is buying HDDVD movies? Wouldn't it just be a glorify DVD player? Toshiba might as well make money selling cheap DVD players for $50.

HDDVD movies doesn't have to outsell Bluray for the whole year. Take advantage of the install base of 1 million owners. Those new owners are ready to buy movies as long as they are at the right prices. Like at $10 - $15. HDDVD can easily beat Bluray movie sales number for a few weeks cause Bluray movies sales aren't that high to begin with. As of 1/6, it's still 64:35 with about 5 million movies sold for the whole year of 2007 for Bluray. Come on, Planet Earth on HDDVD still sells more than the Bluray version.

Besides, there is no guarantee that Universal or Paramount will stay on the HDDVD camp. If you don't show HDDVD movies sales, what guarantee do you have the those studios won't jump to Bluray? What's the use of having 5 million HDDVD players when there is not a single studio behind HDDVD? Seriously.

If the HDDVD camp can outsell Bluray in the next few months, it might even get Warner to reconsider their decision. Would Warner likely go back to HDDVD if that was the case? Probably not, but there might be the chance since Warner is just looking to make money off movie sales just like any other studio.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

If the HDDVD camp can outsell Bluray in the next few months, it might even get Warner to reconsider their decision. Would Warner likely go back to HDDVD if that was the case? Probably not, but there might be the chance since Warner is just looking to make money off movie sales just like any other studio.

Get with reality man. Warner watched a YEAR of sales and how the BR market was selling more players even with the price premium over Xmas.

The went BR exclusive because consumers scared of both formats was scaring people away from even DVD's which Warner cannot afford.

They made a decition to go BR only JUST to end the damn war and people will continue to buy BR and DVD sales.

Are you seriously trying to convince us that because over the next few months when all HD players and movies get liquidated that Warner will take those numbers more seriously then a year of higher BR sales? You think they will decide that since HD sold so darn well on sale for 6 months and brought in a megar amount of money that warner will go back and say "We changed our minds and now want to further the war for another X number of years so all the money we made on HD will be lost because people stopped buying DVD's and are fed up with HD formats alltogethter.

If warner switches back I will buy you a player and 10 movies.

[analogue SPRINKLES]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What's the purpose of Toshiba selling a whole bunch of HDDVD players for $99 if no one is buying HDDVD movies?

Perhaps so they can create a large install base of players and HOPE people buy HD movies. Didn't work!

[hyteckit]

Originally Posted by analogue SPRINKLES 

Perhaps so they can create a large install base of players and HOPE people buy HD movies. Didn't work!

It worked fine. Attachment rate for HDDVD players is about 3 movies to each unit. Much better than the 1 movie to each Bluray unit.

BOGO sales on the HDDVD will stir up more sales for HDDVD easily.

At this late in the game, it's not longer about increasing the install base. Right now, it's do or die and all that matter for the HDDVD camp is to increase HDDVD movies sales to show the movie studios there is still life in the HDDVD camp.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by Mrjinglesusa 

Again, I ask, why do you care and why do you spend so much time posting about Blu-ray vs. HD DVD when you don't even own a high-def player or any movies? It doesn't make any sense. I can understand people getting involved in the debate who chose a side and are now trying to defend it, but I really can't understand why you are so adament that HD DVD is the greatest thing ever and somehow it got screwed out of winning the format war.

I liked HD-DVD because I don't like optical media and I could use managed copy to get the movie off the optical media. I didn't buy a player because I don't want to buy a player to buy the optical media I will never use.

In fact, had Warner not left the HD-DVD camp I'd be ordering a eight core Mac Pro right now, outfitted it with multiple large drives, and then put in two HD-DVD drives. I'm still ordering the Mac Pro (waiting for the 8800's to come into stock), but I won't be doing the HD-DVD drives now. Instead I'll just be getting stuff online.

Seriously, I had thousands of dollars set aside for an HD-DVD setup in a Mac Pro. I was waiting on managed copy and the new Mac Pros.

[exca1ibur]

Originally Posted by goMac 

A Bluray drive shipping in a computer? God forbid anyone do that. I certainly don't know of any companies like Dell or Alienware who ship Bluray drives in their computers.

Dell Bluray Edition
Find reviews, top products, technology deals and more at ComputerShopper.com - Prestitial

Acer
Acer Launches a Desktop PC with Blu-ray and HD DVD Capabilities - A combo unit that supports both rival formats - Softpedia

NEC
Electronista | NEC releases new Blu-Ray computers in Japan

Sony
Amazon.com: Blu-ray Computers

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

It worked fine. Attachment rate for HDDVD players is about 3 movies to each unit. Much better than the 1 movie to each Bluray unit.

BOGO sales on the HDDVD will stir up more sales for HDDVD easily.

At this late in the game, it's not longer about increasing the install base. Right now, it's do or die and all that matter for the HDDVD camp is to increase HDDVD movies sales to show the movie studios there is still life in the HDDVD camp.

Since most of the people I know who bought HD-DVD players at Christmas sent/took their units back, after Warner Bros' announcement, I don't know how well this will work.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by hyteckit 

What's the purpose of Toshiba selling a whole bunch of HDDVD players for $99 if no one is buying HDDVD movies? Wouldn't it just be a glorify DVD player? Toshiba might as well make money selling cheap DVD players for $50.

Yes, it would be a glorified DVD player, and again, I think this would be the only way for HD-DVD to survive. Sell them as glorified DVD players, hope some of those people you sell to pick up HD-DVD's on the side, and then maybe if you last long enough and gain enough of an install base you can convince a few studios to go neutral a year or two down the road.

There is no way the prosumer crowd is going to be convinced to go HD-DVD at this point.

[goMac]

Originally Posted by exca1ibur 

Dell Bluray Edition
Find reviews, top products, technology deals and more at ComputerShopper.com - Prestitial

...[/url]

I'm hoping that this post was just to inform SWG. Otherwise the Bluray crowd would be completely devoid of any sense of sarcasm.

[Eug]

My main concern at this point is hi-def discs that are home made. It's a bit of a mess on the Blu-ray side at the moment, which I suspect one big reason Apple has been slow to support it.

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

How was it attached? What type of DACs? What were the speakers? $10K can get you a decent pair, my old B&Ws were in that range.

I dunno but this guy went through all sorts of speakers and amps. I swear he must have spent $30000 on a 2-channel stereo system after all was said and done. Personally I thought he was nuts, but short version is that every time he auditioned SACD for me I was completely unimpressed... just like I've been less than enthused with DVD-A (which I own).

[Kerrigan]

What would one use home-made hi def disks for, other than piracy? Be honest.. a majority of the uses would be piracy-related.