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IUJHJSDHE · 02:24 AM

Removed

undotwa · Sep 28, 2002, 06:54 AM

They did. What planet have you been living on? Like some artist said, good artists copy, great artists steal.

Silky Voice of The Gorn · Sep 28, 2002, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by IUJHJSDHE:
Just reading around on fark as I normaly do and I went to this link and noticed the bottem...

It says "I admit it was nice when they ripped off the whole windows concept years ago, but they have gone as far as they are going to go."

It's at the bottom of the page, anyone else care to comment on this?

Um in case you didn't notice, this site is *satire*...

MacGorilla · Sep 28, 2002, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by undotwa:
They did. What planet have you been living on? Like some artist said, good artists copy, great artists steal.

That artist would be Picasso

IUJHJSDHE · Sep 28, 2002, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by Silky Voice of The Gorn:

Um in case you didn't notice, this site is *satire*...

god damn it this is the 3rd satire site i been taken in by!!

They should come with warning labels

voodoo · Sep 28, 2002, 04:04 PM

I have a mullet and use a Mac. Apparently I am not set for the new millenium. Ah well.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Sep 28, 2002, 04:06 PM

windows concept not Windows.

Xerox not Microsoft.

Nuff said.

olePigeon · Sep 28, 2002, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
windows concept not Windows.

Xerox not Microsoft.

Nuff said.

Technically, Xerox stole it from Amiga.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Sep 28, 2002, 06:18 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:

Technically, Xerox stole it from Amiga.

I'd really love to know how you figure that. The first prototype Amiga was something like 1983 and the Commodore Amiga that most people actually know didn't arrive until after the Mac itself (something like 1985/86 I believe).

Xerox PARC opened in 1970 and first demonstrated its GUI research in 1975, Jobs and co. visted the PARC in 1979, all clearly well before the Amiga.

voodoo · Sep 28, 2002, 06:23 PM

Originally posted by olePigeon:

Technically, Xerox stole it from Amiga.

Amiga? Steve aqcuired the 'windows' concept from Xerox PARC in 1979. Exactly what Amiga existed in 1979?

Commodore (the company that made the Amiga) was probably designing the C-64 at the time, since it was introduced in 1981.
The Amiga was introduced in 1985.

Sep 28, 2002, 06:38 PM

Also, few people realize that Xerox's GUI was nothing like the Mac GUI. Apple really developed the desktop metaphor, pull down menus, etc. It was meant to be used as a personal computer. Xerox's GUI was developed only to show a WYSIWIG page.

undotwa · Sep 28, 2002, 07:27 PM

The Mac desktop metaphor really is an extension to what Xerox had. Xerox did have pull down menus etc. but it was the Mac that introduced icons, menu bar at the top, UI conformity

, the Finder, desktop and countless other things. Xerox was really just looked like TWM or something. Barebones GUI.

Miniryu · Sep 29, 2002, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by MacGorilla:

That artist would be Picasso

And Picasso copied that saying from me: I said it first.

By the way, Xerox copied the idea for a GUI from me too. I get no f*ckin credit man. It sucks.

G4ME · Sep 29, 2002, 09:27 PM

the man is always puttin you down! you deserve a break and a big fat check

Millennium · Sep 29, 2002, 11:02 PM

Originally posted by undotwa:
The Mac desktop metaphor really is an extension to what Xerox had. Xerox did have pull down menus etc. but it was the Mac that introduced icons, menu bar at the top, UI conformity , the Finder, desktop and countless other things. Xerox was really just looked like TWM or something. Barebones GUI.

Actually, the paradigm behing the Xerox GUI was radically different from the Mac GUI. They did have the windows, menus, and buttons. But that was about it.

The Mac GUI might be called "noun-oriented", you see. You pick an object with your mouse, and then use a menu to define what you want to do with it. Sure, there are shortcuts, such as dragging, but this is the basic idea.

The Xerox GUI, by contrast, was "verb-oriented". You would type in the name of the object you wanted to work with (or pick it from a menu), and then click on a button to determine what you wanted to do with it.

That verb-oriented bit should sound familiar, by the way. But it wasn't Apple who brought this particular idea into the mainstream. It was actually Microsoft, who is generally credited with the concept of a toolbar (first appearing, unless I am mistaken, in an early version of Word for the Mac). But, of course, this wasn't original; it dates back to Xerox's original concepts. MS never did have a good original thought, now did they?

Also, for the record, Apple properly licensed all relevant technologies from Xerox, which is part of the reason Xerox lost its case against Apple. Microsoft didn't do this, but also won its case, because they had more and better lawyers.

MindFad · Sep 29, 2002, 11:54 PM

I thought the basic idea for a "toolbar" showed up in the NeXT OS? I've heard it/read it. Probably sorely mistaken. Anyway, I like me Dock better.

Fallout · Sep 30, 2002, 12:10 AM

Originally posted by voodoo:
I have a mullet

buddy, do you actually think you look good with a mullet? cut it off you ****ing hick.

undotwa · Sep 30, 2002, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by MindFad:
I thought the basic idea for a "toolbar" showed up in the NeXT OS? I've heard it/read it. Probably sorely mistaken. Anyway, I like me Dock better.

Yes, I seem to recall seeing it in early versions of Mail.

kidtexas · Sep 30, 2002, 12:57 AM

Originally posted by G4ME:
the man is always puttin you down! you deserve a break and a big fat chick

Why would he want a big fat chick?

olePigeon · Sep 30, 2002, 01:49 AM

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:
I'd really love to know how you figure that. The first prototype Amiga was something like 1983 and the Commodore Amiga that most people actually know didn't arrive until after the Mac itself (something like 1985/86 I believe).

Xerox PARC opened in 1970 and first demonstrated its GUI research in 1975, Jobs and co. visted the PARC in 1979, all clearly well before the Amiga.

I was speaking facetiously. The modern GUI was developed by Amiga, not Xerox PARC. A lot of people think Apple pioneered the modern GUI by copying if off of Xerox PARC, meanwhile Amiga had long been developing their own GUI complete with windows, folder hierarchy, multi-tasking, and even a pop-up command line prompt.

Part of the cost of an Amiga was that the operating system was far superior and advanced compared to the MacOS, or anything PARC could shell out. Unfortunately for Amiga, no one wanted to buy a $20,000 computer.

The original Macintosh was a giant leap, but it was a far cry from the AmigaOS.

olePigeon · Sep 30, 2002, 02:02 AM

Oh yeah. Speaking of the word "windows," I thought it prudent to bring up that Microsoft no longer holds a trademark on the word "Windows."

Meaning that any company can make an operating system named "Windows" (e.g. Bob's Windows).

This happened last year when Microsoft sued Lindows (I forgot the name of the parent company) over trademark infringement. Lindows argued that you can't trademark the word "windows" because of its historical background regarding operating systems.

Back when it was all starting up, suppose someone walks into a store intent on purchasing a Macintosh. They ask the sales clerk,"Hi. I'm looking for a computer. I want the one with windows and stuff on it."

So the clerk leads them to Microsoft Windows. Instead of getting a Macintosh with MacOS, they're given a Tandy with Windows 1.0 (shutter).

Lindows won the argument and the case. As insult to injury, the judge ruled that Microsoft can no longer hold a trademark on the name "Windows."

So as you can see, people are still getting confused over "windows" and "Windows."

l008com · Sep 30, 2002, 02:05 AM

Yeah, then I WAS BORN.

CRASH HARDDRIVE · Sep 30, 2002, 02:41 AM

Originally posted by olePigeon:
A lot of people think Apple pioneered the modern GUI by copying if off of Xerox PARC, meanwhile Amiga had long been developing their own GUI complete with windows, folder hierarchy, multi-tasking, and even a pop-up command line prompt.

"meanwhile?" Pidgeon, your timelime is WAY off. There is no 'meanwhile' when comparing the Amiga to the timeline of Xerox PARC research that related to Apple.

It's like you're arguring "Yeah that Wright Brothers flyer was really okay and all, but *meanwhile* the P-51 Mustang had drop tanks, turbo prop and could break Mach 1 and yadda yadda yadda..."

Once more:
Xerox PARC GUI research- 1970-1979.

Amiga- 1985.

The original Mac- 1984.

Yeah great, so it's been pointed out a gazillion times that systems that came out a full decade after the research in question- were actually better and much improved upon!

And this is a surprize to anyone?

olePigeon · Sep 30, 2002, 04:42 AM

Silly me. You're right. In 1985 the AmigaOS (then called Intuition) magically appeared out of thin air, there was absolutely no research and development. Amiga actually found a magic lamp and had a djinni grant them their wish: By 1985 at precisely 8:00AM we will have the most advanced operating system in the world.

*POOF* there it was.

Ok, first of all lets get things straight. In case you missed it in my post, I said I was being facetious about Xerox copying Amiga (synonymous with sarcasm, joking, etc.) Secondly, I'm referring to developing a modern GUI. Xerox PARC did not have a modern GUI, it was Apple who took the idea a step further. Yes, I'm quite aware of the historical walk in 1979. Amiga came in and started their work in 1982, 3 years after Apple. Amiga was working on their GUI development during the same time Apple was working on theirs, hence the "meanwhile." And only 1 year after Apple released the Macintosh, Amiga released the Amiga with Intuition (to be renamed AmigaOS.) Apple got all the publicity but Amiga was no less important; infact they were probably more instrumental in the development of the modern GUI than they're given credit for. That's where my joke about Xerox copying Amiga came from.

These are NOT completely different time frames, and is separated by 3 years for initiation -- not 10 -- and only 1 year by release. My comparison for the development of a modern GUI between Apple and Amiga is within an acceptable timeframe that I deem "meanwhile." Certainly more accurate than your 40 years between the Wright Flyer and the P51 Mustang.

Originally posted by CRASH HARDDRIVE:

"meanwhile?" Pidgeon, your timelime is WAY off. There is no 'meanwhile' when comparing the Amiga to the timeline of Xerox PARC research that related to Apple.

It's like you're arguring "Yeah that Wright Brothers flyer was really okay and all, but *meanwhile* the P-51 Mustang had drop tanks, turbo prop and could break Mach 1 and yadda yadda yadda..."

Once more:
Xerox PARC GUI research- 1970-1979.

Amiga- 1985.

The original Mac- 1984.

Yeah great, so it's been pointed out a gazillion times that systems that came out a full decade after the research in question- were actually better and much improved upon!

And this is a surprize to anyone?

pixelghetto · Sep 30, 2002, 06:57 AM

Originally posted by Fallout:

buddy, do you actually think you look good with a mullet? cut it off you ****ing hick.

Don't knock hockey hair, it's an aero-dynamic style!

voodoo · Sep 30, 2002, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by Fallout:

buddy, do you actually think you look good with a mullet? cut it off you ****ing hick.

I am not the type of guy that loses sleep over the way he looks

Btw, what's your problem?

voodoo · Sep 30, 2002, 08:21 AM

Have you read my link on Amiga history, OlePigeon? What do you think?

In 1984 Commodore had no plans to launch a 16-bit computer.
By 1985 they launched the most successful 16-bit computer ever.

They wern't even thinking about making the Amiga in 1984, yet they had been researching GUI for many years?? Take the blindfold off OlePigeon.

The month Tramiel left Commodore also saw the launched of the Apple Macintosh - billed as the first truly user-friendly computer. Bosting a huge 128k the Mac cost �2,500 in the UK which meant in never became a prime home computer. But the user interface, the mouse and icons, the ease of operation, and the inclusion of the 3.5" disk drive greatly influenced the designers of the Lorraine (and the future [Atari]ST).

Hmm... Apple influencing the Lorraine (AKA Amiga)

Anyway, it's pretty obvious where the Amiga is in the line of evolution. It appeared after the Mac and after the Atari ST, both using GUI, both inspired by Xerox PARC. And yes, the whole Amiga GUI was probably pulled out of their ass in a couple of months (maybe a year) because it looks it and when you have all these rolemadels (Apple, Xerox PARC and Atari) you can pull it off rather quickly.

Besides. There was no Amiga company before CBM went bankrupt some time in the 90s.

Commodore Business Machines was the name of the company that released and designed the Amiga. The fact you didn't realise that shows you don't hold much grasp of the actual events of that era.

olePigeon · Sep 30, 2002, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by voodoo:
[B]Have you read my link on Amiga history, OlePigeon? What do you think?[b]

Sorry, I didn't see your link. I was getting my info from Workbench.

http://www.workbench.f9.co.uk/history.htm

Anyway, it's pretty obvious where the Amiga is in the line of evolution. It appeared after the Mac and after the Atari ST, both using GUI, both inspired by Xerox PARC. And yes, the whole Amiga GUI was probably pulled out of their ass in a couple of months (maybe a year) because it looks it and when you have all these rolemadels (Apple, Xerox PARC and Atari) you can pull it off rather quickly.

I'll concede this argument, you may be right. It seems that every link there's a big gap between 1982 and 1985. I had assumed that they began work on it during those times.

You mention that it looks like they pulled it out of their ass... have you seen MacOS 5? It's pretty horrid, and only B&W. The AmigaOS was full color and had all those features I mentioned earlier. If it was pulled out in less than a year, I think it's pretty remarkable.

Maybe they really did find a magic lamp!