[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Yes, I get worked up about this, because the Second Amendment is part of the U.S. Constitution. I spent over two decades defending the Constitution so Americans could sit around in Starbucks and complain about "how horrible things are" while they don't do a darn thing to help anyone else in the whole world. I BELIEVE in the Constitution, and, in spite of the fact that there are a lot of people whom I don't think deserve its guarantees, I will NOT sit by and allow this sacred document to be degraded by ignorant and bigoted people.

I believe in the constitution as well, but I don't think that the intention was to allow everyone to tote around a gun for the sake of it. The purpose (in my understanding, If I'm incorrect please show me how) of the 2nd amendment was to provide for the arming of state militias. The document was written at a time when state vs. federal power was a hotly debated topic, and it's no wonder considering that the people were coming out from under a rather oppressive thumb.

Amendment II: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

The right to keep and bear arms is attached to the purpose of a militia. The purpose of being able to form a militia would be to arm a military force should federal powers become unstable, or threatening.

In this day and age, I personally find it doubtful that any militia would form should the federal government collapse (in one way or another). These days, IMO, people tend to think of themselves. They aren't and wouldn't be interested in forming a militia. People tend to focus on themselves more than on the well being of the group (save perhaps one's family). In a desperate time, I see people more behaving like the guy sitting on his porch with his gun, holding it up when a simple door to door salesman appeared than gathering together to protect and defend the people.

[Splinter]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

AND you're IDF right!?
A friend of mine is in anti-terrorism training there right now.
He was with YAMMAS yesterday. The baddest of the bad-assed right?

Yeah YAMMAS are up there alright. I guarantee they have nicer weapons then I do

This is a weapon they give people they DONT like.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

In the "special features" stuff that came with one of the Star Wars DVD collections (I can't remember which), there's original footage, particularly of the chases in the Death Star, where you can see not only empty cases being ejected, but wadding flying out of the barrel. Obviously they were VERY CAREFUL on the stage! The smoke from those blanks was pretty nasty too, and you can see it in the special feature as well. Brandon was killed by an incompetent gun wrangler (that's what the people in charge of guns on set are called). And if I remember correctly that guy went to jail for his incompetence. As I mentioned above, you MUST be exceptionally careful when dealing with guns on set because you want them to LOOK real but not hurt anyone. The wrangler on the set of The Crow was not, and Brandon paid the price. The whole industry has been overhauled since then, and NOBODY gets to touch anything unless some really serious people (who will knock you down if you look sideways at a "real" gun on set) say it's ok.

On October 16, 1991, George Henard drove his truck into a restaurant (through the wall) in Waco, Texas, got out and started shooting. He killed 23 people, wounded 20 others, and then killed himself. A number of people there had firearms in their cars for various reasons. If only ONE of them had actually taken a gun into that restaurant, they may have been able to stop Henard quickly, preventing the massacre. The state of Texas instituted a concealed handgun carry law specifically because of this incident, over the governor's veto.

It should be noted that until very recently (the VT shootings), this was the most deadly shooting incident in U.S. history. "If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it."

Alternative law may have prohibited the perpetrator owning the gun in the first place... the answer to violence isn't always violence.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

I believe in the constitution as well, but I don't think that the intention was to allow everyone to tote around a gun for the sake of it. The purpose (in my understanding, If I'm incorrect please show me how) of the 2nd amendment was to provide for the arming of state militias. The document was written at a time when state vs. federal power was a hotly debated topic, and it's no wonder considering that the people were coming out from under a rather oppressive thumb.



The right to keep and bear arms is attached to the purpose of a militia. The purpose of being able to form a militia would be to arm a military force should federal powers become unstable, or threatening.

In this day and age, I personally find it doubtful that any militia would form should the federal government collapse (in one way or another). These days, IMO, people tend to think of themselves. They aren't and wouldn't be interested in forming a militia. People tend to focus on themselves more than on the well being of the group (save perhaps one's family). In a desperate time, I see people more behaving like the guy sitting on his porch with his gun, holding it up when a simple door to door salesman appeared than gathering together to protect and defend the people.

Well, the militias were also fighting the British. So armed militias are a mechanism of defense against outside forces.

Think Red Dawn all over again.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

Why would it not be legal? In fact, people who own automatic firearms (not "semiautomatic," I'm talking about "machine guns") are some of the most law abiding people around. You spend (I am NOT making this up!) $15 THOUSAND dollars for a registered M16, and you think you're even going to think about doing something illegal? And why should an AR-15 be illegal? Because it looks scary? That's the crazy ****.

Yes, I get worked up about this, because the Second Amendment is part of the U.S. Constitution. I spent over two decades defending the Constitution so Americans could sit around in Starbucks and complain about "how horrible things are" while they don't do a darn thing to help anyone else in the whole world. I BELIEVE in the Constitution, and, in spite of the fact that there are a lot of people whom I don't think deserve its guarantees, I will NOT sit by and allow this sacred document to be degraded by ignorant and bigoted people.

Chill out. My opinion comes from a country where even revolvers are frowned upon and take months andthousands of dollars to obtain. I never said I agreed with it, I just said it was hard to believe.

If you read what I said, you'd note that I said I wanted one!

I'll post more when I'm more sober.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Alternative law may have prohibited the perpetrator owning the gun in the first place... the answer to violence isn't always violence.

The answer to violence is not always violence, but it can often enough be armed defense or the capability thereof, necessary to deter further violence or its outbreak.

Also, violence solves problems often enough that I'd prefer to have the option of blowing away a perp instead of trying to talk some sense into him.

[Cipher13]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

The answer to violence is not always violence, but it can often enough be armed defense or the capability thereof, necessary to deter further violence or its outbreak.

Also, violence solves problems often enough that I'd prefer to have the option of blowing away a perp instead of trying to talk some sense into him.

I agree entirely.

[Buckaroo]

I don't have pictures, but I have 4 handguns. I'd like to sell one of them.

[E's Lil Theorem]

I don't have a picture of my own Beretta, but this is what it looks like:

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by SirCastor 

The right to keep and bear arms is attached to the purpose of a militia.

Not just that, but a "well regulated militia". That doesn't actually say a bunch of random people with an assortment of firearms.

[Jawbone54]

I currently have nothing at all, but that's only because I've been spending my money on cameras and other gadgets. I really need to save up so I can get a gun again. My 20-gauge was damaged.

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

Not just that, but a "well regulated militia". That doesn't actually say a bunch of random people with an assortment of firearms.

But in the context of individuals bearing arms - the individual right to keep and bear arms. Then coming together when needed as a militia to protect the "security of a free state". Otherwise I'm sure the framers would have been more specific, i.e., dictating arms be secured and possessed by a militia, which itself would be determined by law.

[Sky Captain]

The Second amendment was to keep America from ever becoming like Europe ever again.
Remember in England, a commoner couldn't even own a hunting rifle.
And even now it's almost impossible to own one. Hell you can't carry a knife now.
Apparently they haven't got a handle on the criminal problem even though the government pounds money into the problem. Yeah, ban weapons, the criminals just find something else. Jump up and down. Wave your arms. The ultiamte solution?

The 1st amendment should be regulated also.
People do a lot of harm with their words also.
And scream their puke is protected under the first.

[Sherman Homan]

Not just that, but a "well regulated militia". That doesn't actually say a bunch of random people with an assortment of firearms.

Yes, I think it does. The term "well regulated" doesn't mean managed by the Nanny State. The word regulated meant that your powder was dry, your flint was sharp, your barrel straight and rust free:
Meaning of the phrase "well-regulated"

[wallinbl]

Originally Posted by Sherman Homan 

Yes, I think it does. The term "well regulated" doesn't mean managed by the Nanny State.

I'm not a big fan of government management. Head down to a gun show or a flea market and tell me there's anyone down there that should have a gun. There are far too many people that have guns that shouldn't have guns. It's the same problem as breeding - there are plenty of people that just shouldn't do it, but you can't really go around telling them that.

[SirCastor]

Originally Posted by Cold Warrior 

Well, the militias were also fighting the British. So armed militias are a mechanism of defense against outside forces.

Think Red Dawn all over again.

Yes, but as has been noted in this case, Militias were a mechanism of defense against interior forces. The Colonies were going up against their own malfunctioning (in our opinion) government, not an invading force.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by JonoMarshall 

Definately not, I wouldn't attack anybody... but what if as I reach around to hug my girlfriend it looks as if I'm pulling out a [insert threatening weapon of choice here] and I get popped in the head?

This seems like a weird example. If this were to happen then I'd say that you were killed by your own stupidity. Concealing a firearm means more than just sticking it under your shirt.

Or what if I trip, fall into someone carrying a gun and as it wasn't properly holstered and I get shot in the [insert area of body of choice here]?

Modern firearms don't just "go off". You would literally have to have one in the chamber, the hammer cocked, the safety off AND have the trigger pulled. If this were to happen then, again, it is YOUR fault.

Or what if someone who owns a gun gets [insert temporary mindset change of choice here] and does something they'll really regret?

I don't know, it does happen.

Or what if some kid steals his parent's gun and... ya da ya da ya da.

I agree that there are a LOT of stupid people with kids. There was a case a few years ago where a woman hid a loaded gun IN HER OVEN because the grandchildren were coming over and she didn't think that they would look there. Except that she turned the oven on and it went off. If I remember right one of the kids was hit.

Then again, when you do the math the percentage of guns that are actually involved in accidental shootings is in the 3rd or 4th DECIMAL PLACE. Not exactly an "epidemic"

This and the above example aren't really very good arguments for YOU or some other individual to possess and carry a gun. It's more like an argument against all gun ownership which is a different issue I think.

We also let old people and mindless, immature teenagers drive 2500 lb. death machines around, there isn't exactly a public outcry for banning automobiles.

What's the real-world benefit of carrying a gun around on an average day (or even owning one) other than adding to the possibility of violence?

I don't personally feel the need or have the desire to carry a gun or any other weapon and I think that there is an unwarranted paranoia that has to exist for an average person to feel the need to. The point is that I am not willing to tell someone else they shouldn't based upon MY personal feelings.

[OldManMac]

Originally Posted by smacintush 

I don't personally feel the need or have the desire to carry a gun or any other weapon and I think that there is an unwarranted paranoia that has to exist for an average person to feel the need to. The point is that I am not willing to tell someone else they shouldn't based upon MY personal feelings.

[CMYKid]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

I also carry a Sig 226 when i fly. It's kept in a lockbox on the flightdeck.

Ohhh, you're one of THOSE pilots... I'm glad they finally made that a viable option for pilots, it's just too bad that they STILL make it so complicated for you guys, much more so than typical CCW. Some of the rules just arent really sensical with that program.

In other news...I hafta say I'm a little surprised at the response here. I really thought the 'NN community was mature enough for this discussion.

[smacintush]

Originally Posted by CMYKid 

In other news...I hafta say I'm a little surprised at the response here. I really thought the 'NN community was mature enough for this discussion.

I can't imagine what would have given you THAT idea…

[Gamoe]

Always on stun.

Serious side-note: It's a shame that weapons manufacturers concentrate more on the deadly weapons instead of manufacturing weapons for self defense which could incapacitate an attacker without posing serious harm to an individual and without being as inhumane as a taser. I would love to have a "stun-only" gun, or at least something I could set to such a setting. That said, I do believe an individual should have a right to own a gun, though not indiscriminately so, but I'll leave it at that.

[Sky Captain]

You don't need a gun to commit mass murder.

[Doofy]

Originally Posted by Gamoe 

Serious side-note: It's a shame that weapons manufacturers concentrate more on the deadly weapons instead of manufacturing weapons for self defense which could incapacitate an attacker without posing serious harm to an individual and without being as inhumane as a taser.

Shotgun with beanbag shells?

[Cold Warrior]

Originally Posted by Doofy 

Shotgun with beanbag shells?

Indeed. With beanbag pellets that burst on impact and burn into organic material a bit. Imagine a criminal getting hit with that sucker. Sweet.


On another note, have you guys seen the HK416? I'm hoping it'll become available to civilians at some point soon.
Heckler & Koch HK416 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[ghporter]

I don't think H&K is interested in the civilian market. They've been using under-the-table marketing strategies, like planting articles in the Army Times about how bad the M4 is and how much better the 416 is, in spite of the fact that all the "facts" in these articles come from pretty obviously biased sources. And while a piston-based AR is a good idea in certain circumstances, it is NOT better than the current generation of M4s and M16s for general issue, nor is it better than sliced bread. The piston may keep the receivers cleaner, but it brings with it a bunch of other problems inherent to pistons themselves... Sure, the 416 is pretty, but so is the Leitner-Weiss piston system and the three or four others in work or available in limited quantities.

I'll stick with the current generation of basic ARs myself, thanks. There are more than enough geegaws, bells, whistles and other bling to add to a basic AR to keep me busy (and broker) for the time being.

[Sky Captain]

You can buy the gas-piston kit for your AR now.
But it's expensive. $1200.

I got to test drive a Sig Arms 556. The representative brought a whole table full of their products at my last shoot.

Here is a video of the 556


The beanbag shotshells can be lethal by the way.

[Cold Warrior]

That guy is using an EOTECH in the video. Those are very nice as well.

[Matius]

Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie 

Yah, look at my guns! I'm a white trash hick and these are my guns! Aren't they beautiful? They're for killing people! I own several!

Losers.

A. Not a white trash hick
B. They are beautiful (especially the 1911)
C. They are for killing...I have shot hundreds of paper bad guys and the most violent of all, those vicious steel plates. Those things are mean!
D. I own several.

Hey you're 50% right anyway. Good for you. If you played baseball it would have been a great day at the plate. But since you come in here to a thread you don't have any interest in or reason to participate in, for the sole purpose of insulting everyone here who owns a gun then bad on you. In fact, your right to exist is protected on a daily basis by people who you apparently feel are white-trash hicks. It must be a sad feeling to be such a spineless bitch that you have to hide behind people you loathe for protection. I was going to tell you to get yourself a pistol and defend yourself, but on second thought don't do that. Those little bastards can just crawl out your safe, load themselves up, and go to town on whoever happens to be around and you don't appear to be the kind of person who could handle that.

[UNTeMac]

Those that say everyone should carry one so we can stop people like Cho from mass murder...I tend to think the steady drumbeat of anger/revenge/accidental/child/criminal killings would far surpass any possible damage a single maladjusted individual could do.

A gun-carrying society is a violent society.

That said, handguns and other firearms can be a fun diversion at a shooting range. I enjoy it because of the challenge and for the respect it instills in me for people that have to face that kind of awful power head on.

Those of you that go to a shooting range: Ask yourself when you're shooting if you like the challenge or the power rush? Are you imagining the head of someone who pissed you off on your target? No one on that side would ever admit it here but you know who you are. Those people are the problem gun-owners. Those people make us less safe.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

Those that say everyone should carry one so we can stop people like Cho from mass murder...I tend to think the steady drumbeat of anger/revenge/accidental/child/criminal killings would far surpass any possible damage a single maladjusted individual could do.

Wrong. Check crime stats for states right after they passed concealed carry laws. Hint: crime went DOWN.

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

A gun-carrying society is a violent society.

But we need to examine which is "ipso" and which is "ergo." Is a society where a lot of people feel the need to carry a firearm violent because of all those people carrying, or are they carrying because the society is already violent? LEGALLY carrying is a pretty recent innovation, and the crime stats show that the society is LESS violent, maybe because of that. "An armed society is a polite society." (RAH)

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

That said, handguns and other firearms can be a fun diversion at a shooting range. I enjoy it because of the challenge and for the respect it instills in me for people that have to face that kind of awful power head on.

ABSOLUTELY! The concentration needed to line up iron sights on a target 300 meters away is nothing trivial. The physical self control needed to keep those sights lined up while moving your finger -without moving anything else- to make the shot is exceptional. It's a blast!

Originally Posted by UNTeMac 

Those of you that go to a shooting range: Ask yourself when you're shooting if you like the challenge or the power rush? Are you imagining the head of someone who pissed you off on your target? No one on that side would ever admit it here but you know who you are. Those people are the problem gun-owners. Those people make us less safe.

I've seen a LOT of people at ranges in my time. I've seen a few that worried me, but mostly because they were unlearned in handling, not because their behavior showed a sociopath lurking below the surface. THAT I've seen on city streets in traffic, in grocery stores (for heaven's sake, can't a person just act like there are others around who may actually have to buy milk too?!?!), and in business. Me? If I can make a single hole in that piece of paper WAY down there, I'm really happy! At a recent qualification event, I did just that (and got a lot of dirty looks from Glock owners because they simply couldn't, due to the limitations of their pistol).

[Sky Captain]

Last weekend I made a 100 yard shot with my 1911 race gun.
There were some plastic Easter eggs placed on the berm that folks with scoped rifles were shooting at. You could see them hitting near the orange plastic egg.
My brother -Mars- pops off that only pussy uses a scope and shoots at it with his 1866 Henry.
Well he gets close.
I pop off that not only would use a scope but a rifle too.
Needless to say I got a "You hit that and I'll buy you lunch!" from the peanut gallery.
I hit the plastic egg on the fist shot!
I ordered pizza.

[climber]

Originally Posted by wallinbl 

...It's the same problem as breeding - there are plenty of people that just shouldn't do it, but you can't really go around telling them that.

This may be inflammatory, but so is your last statement. Hitler had a solution for the "wrong" people breading concept you are spewing.

[CMYKid]

Originally Posted by ghporter 

At a recent qualification event, I did just that (and got a lot of dirty looks from Glock owners because they simply couldn't, due to the limitations of their pistol).

What were you shooting? With, I mean.

[Matius]

Originally Posted by CMYKid 

What were you shooting? With, I mean.

I hate to speak for him so I won't but I am going to guess he was shooting a 1911? I appreciated the reliability of Glock (owned one) and others like it (M&P...own one), but there is nothing like shooting a well tuned, custom 1911 (own one too). My favorite pistol by far.

[Sky Captain]

I let a fella try out my custom 1911 down at the training pit.

Video

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Peter 

can't believe people carry a gun around with them on a daily basis... insane

That isn't the sad part. The sad part is there are places on this planet that are not safe unless you carry a gun around with you on a daily basis...



Or that people say things like this little fellow did below..

Originally Posted by toothpick_charlie 

Yah, look at my guns! I'm a white trash hick and these are my guns! Aren't they beautiful? They're for killing people! I own several!

Losers.

[Kevin]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Alternative law may have prohibited the perpetrator owning the gun in the first place... the answer to violence isn't always violence.

Laws don't stop those that break them.
Laws have no power over those that do no respect them.

[ghporter]

Originally Posted by Cipher13 

Alternative law may have prohibited the perpetrator owning the gun in the first place... the answer to violence isn't always violence.

Originally Posted by Kevin 

Laws don't stop those that break them.
Laws have no power over those that do no respect them.

Further, one problem that allowed Cho to buy his guns was that there were two laws in conflict with each other (HIPAA and the federal regulation preventing those adjudged mentally incompetent) with another issue that SHOULD have been a law-requiring a state to report when someone is adjudged mentally incompetent. If the NICS had included data that said Cho had been involuntarily hospitalized for his mental problems, then the purchase would NOT have gone through. (The possibility that he may have found someone to sell him a gun under the table exists, but it is not as likely, as Cho did not seem to have any contacts in criminal circles.)

With all of that said, someone who does not respect the law will simply not abide by it as he sees fit. It's illegal to do a lot of things, but people do them all the time-many of them violent and antisocial. Laws don't prevent that, and our current criminal justice system does not sufficiently dissuade potential perpetrators from their plans. Further, the Supreme Court has ruled that there is NO duty for any police organization to protect any individual. In other words, the police are NOT there to protect me or you. They are there to protect "society," and I think a lot of them need to be fired because they're just not doing the job. If the police are not there to protect me or my family, who will?

[OldManMac]

It seems that Mr. Bloomberg, NY's mayor, is no fan of gun rights either.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/04/ny...rssnyt&emc=rss

[Big Mac]

Originally Posted by KarlG 

It seems that Mr. Bloomberg, NY's mayor, is no fan of gun rights either.

The mayor of NY is anti-gun? What an astute observation!

As for me, I have too many guns to bother posting them.

[irunat2am]

Originally Posted by Matius 

A. Not a white trash hick
B. They are beautiful (especially the 1911)
C. They are for killing...I have shot hundreds of paper bad guys and the most violent of all, those vicious steel plates. Those things are mean!
D. I own several.

Hey you're 50% right anyway. Good for you. If you played baseball it would have been a great day at the plate. But since you come in here to a thread you don't have any interest in or reason to participate in, for the sole purpose of insulting everyone here who owns a gun then bad on you. In fact, your right to exist is protected on a daily basis by people who you apparently feel are white-trash hicks. It must be a sad feeling to be such a spineless bitch that you have to hide behind people you loathe for protection. I was going to tell you to get yourself a pistol and defend yourself, but on second thought don't do that. Those little bastards can just crawl out your safe, load themselves up, and go to town on whoever happens to be around and you don't appear to be the kind of person who could handle that.

That's pretty much where I was going with my response on page #1. You just did it with more passion

[irunat2am]

Originally Posted by Sky Captain 

I let a fella try out my custom 1911 down at the training pit.

Video

Looked like you guys had fun What a nice day!

[loki74]

I don't actually own any firearms, but if people are posting lightsabers, I guess I'm not being too out of line to post this:





Made in LightWave 3D 9. Still a WIP... I'm guessing most of you will notice the missing extractor and firing pin. well on the inside there's a whole lot more missing, but i only modeled any invisible stuff for academic purposes... then i got lazy. haha.

[Sky Captain]

Still very cool nontheless!
Very talented!

[Kevin]

It destroys minds!