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Did you see Byrd nail Rumsfield?
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El Pre$idente
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Sep 20, 2002, 03:24 AM
 
Just after Rumsfield delivered the 'Saddam gassed the Kurds and the Iranians' line to the Senate, Senator Byrd pulled out the Newsweek article which detailed Rumsfield's visit to Iraq in 83, how Rumsfield met Saddam and was his guest for several months and how after that meeting Iraq seems to have gotten all the assistance it needed in its war with Iran and Kurdish rebels.

Suffice to say, Rumsfield was shaken and denied knowledge of anything.
     
Simon X
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Sep 20, 2002, 03:48 AM
 
Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
Just after Rumsfield delivered the 'Saddam gassed the Kurds and the Iranians' line to the Senate, Senator Byrd pulled out the Newsweek article which detailed Rumsfield's visit to Iraq in 83, how Rumsfield met Saddam and was his guest for several months and how after that meeting Iraq seems to have gotten all the assistance it needed in its war with Iran and Kurdish rebels.

Suffice to say, Rumsfield was shaken and denied knowledge of anything.
The Senate must reek of hypocrisy. Not only emanating from Rumsfield but from Cheney too. Wasn't he on the board of some oil company that made millions from Iraq? I believe there's some ongoing investigation into his past affairs which is linked to this matter.

Cheney, Bush, ex-oil guys. What do you think their angle on all this is.

The stench from just these two guys must be unbearable.
     
Zimphire
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Sep 20, 2002, 03:54 AM
 
Byrd is a idiot, I really wish he wasn't representing WV..

     
yield2apple
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:13 AM
 
Originally posted by Zimphire:
Byrd is a idiot, I really wish he wasn't representing WV..

Shouldn't you be attacking Newsweek?
     
Zimphire
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:45 AM
 
Not just about instance, Over all Byrd is a idiot.

WV has a track record of getting brain dead only in it for themselves Democratic Govenors and Senators.

Funny thing is though WV voted for Bush.
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:00 AM
 
So Byrd is an idiot for asking legit questions that point out Rumsfield's hypocritical 'Saddam gassed Iranians' remark?

Or is this another way of 'let's censor him and whitewash this by calling X an idiot/troll/terrorist/communist/socialist/leftist/democrat/liberal/anti-war protestor/add anything that rightwingers resent' ?
     
Zimphire
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:02 AM
 
Again, I am not talking about this instance, just remarking that Byrd, is a idiot.

Like say you go up to a friend and tell him about your brother, and what he did today. Say your friend thinks your brother is a idiot. When talking about him, your friend will probably mention that.
     
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:29 AM
 
Just after Byrd delivered the 'Rumsfeld partied with the Iranians' line to the Senate, Senator Foghorn pulled out the spring 1958 issue of White Power Monthly which detailed Byrd's latest rally where, clad in a white sheet, he helped light the ceremonial torch, announced with much bravado "Tha KKK is needed today as nevah before!" called for more of those uppity n*****s to be "..put in th'ah place", then festively joined in the burning of a cross on someone's yard.

Suffice to say, Byrd was shaken and denied knowledge of anything.


And around and around the pot/kettle/black party goes...!
     
VRL
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:45 AM
 
Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
So Byrd is an idiot for asking legit questions that point out Rumsfield's hypocritical 'Saddam gassed Iranians' remark?
Byrd is saying what he is because he is political, like the entire democratic party in the U.S. ... It's an election year, after all.

Frankly, one could also argue that the U.S. NEEDS to act to correct the errors of the past. Do you really believe that if the U.S. knew then what we know now, actions would be the same, by any administration?

And if you think the U.S. is the only country that has "provided" weapons or the means of making weapons to Iraq over the past two decades, you are mistaken. To point a finger solely at the U.S. is, once again, political, whether an American democrat does it or a "foreign leader" does it.

The list of countries that have provided materials, planes, cars, cash (via trade or otherwise), and information includes Russia, France, China, Libya, Egypt, Italy, U.K., Germany, etc. Will you also hold those countries accountable for their involvement with a nation (Iraq) that murders its own citizens and willingly supports terrorism (murder of civilians)?
     
deedar
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Sep 20, 2002, 12:28 PM
 
I don't think that anyone has denied that we were pretty cozy with Saddam in the past. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly no fan of the approach our administration is taking on Saddam in particular and the mideast in general, but..... what's your point? That politicians are hypocrites? This isn't news. It doesn't really matter what postions we (the US) have had in the past - what's important is what is happening now. That's it. boom.
     
MacGorilla
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Sep 20, 2002, 01:14 PM
 
Originally posted by deedar:
I don't think that anyone has denied that we were pretty cozy with Saddam in the past. "An enemy of my enemy is my friend" sort of thing. Don't get me wrong, I am certainly no fan of the approach our administration is taking on Saddam in particular and the mideast in general, but..... what's your point? That politicians are hypocrites? This isn't news. It doesn't really matter what postions we (the US) have had in the past - what's important is what is happening now. That's it. boom.
Its true that Iraq was an important ally against Iran. We helped arm Iraq's armies. We helped create Saddam.

This isn't the first dictator/ally we've turned on: Noriega, Marcos, etc.

Quick! name this country:

It elects its leader for life
It has no political parties
No freedom of the press
Women can't serve in public office
No freedom of speech
The leader rules by decree

Any guesses? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Libya?

Bzzzzzzt! Time's up!

Answer: Vatican City, one of the smallest nations on Earth. Ruled by the Pope. Its funny how looks can be decieving.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not comparing the Pope to Saddam. I admire and respect the Pope (even though I'm not Catholic). This is just something to think about.
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SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 20, 2002, 01:28 PM
 
Originally posted by MacGorilla:


Its true that Iraq was an important ally against Iran. We helped arm Iraq's armies. We helped create Saddam.

This isn't the first dictator/ally we've turned on: Noriega, Marcos, etc.

Quick! name this country:

It elects its leader for life
It has no political parties
No freedom of the press
Women can't serve in public office
No freedom of speech
The leader rules by decree

Any guesses? Saudi Arabia? Iran? Libya?

Bzzzzzzt! Time's up!

Answer: Vatican City, one of the smallest nations on Earth. Ruled by the Pope. Its funny how looks can be decieving.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not comparing the Pope to Saddam. I admire and respect the Pope (even though I'm not Catholic). This is just something to think about.
Doesn't the Vatican State technically have a permanent population of 1? Everyone else in the Church retains the citizenship of their birth, even the accredited Vatican diplomats and the Swiss Guards. So it seems like a perfect democracy to me. There is one person ruling a state inhabited by only one person: himself!
     
roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 01:53 PM
 
Originally posted by MacGorilla:

Its true that Iraq was an important ally against Iran.
Not exactly. We helped Iran. We helped Iraq. It was cynical but it had it's own logic.

We helped arm Iraq's armies. We helped create Saddam.
Arm his armies? They weren't using our tanks or planes or rifles or missles during the Gulf War. We didn't create Saddam. He came to power with the Baath Socialist Party. The Baaths were Pan-Arab Nationalists. (Assad of Syria also was a member of the Syrian Baath Party.) To be precise, the Baath Party is a National Socialist movement. We didn't create Saddam. We simply helped him when we thought it was in our interest to do so.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 20, 2002, 02:09 PM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:
Arm his armies? They weren't using our tanks or planes or rifles or missles during the Gulf War.
Absolutely correct. Iraq's major military suppliers were the Soviet Union. The tanks, aircraft, personal weapons, missiles and so on were almost entirely Soviet. There was also a smaller amount supplied by France. The Iraqi nuclear reactor, which was the heart of the original Iraqi nuclear bomb project and which was destroyed by Israel in 1982 was built by France.

In addition, there was also a private British connection, particularly the amazing Supergun which was the largest gun in the world, and which was destroyed after the Gulf War. Note, by the way, that the nuclear, chemical or biological-capable Supergun had a fixed orientation. The article I have linked to doesn't mention it, but the gun was pointed right at Tel Aviv.
     
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Sep 20, 2002, 02:19 PM
 
You can't take what politicians say too much to heart, since they generally only tell you enough to get you fired up but not actually give you the meat of the matter. That's why all the laws/bills that we vote on have names like "The Loving Family Act," or "The Fair Treatment Of Women Act" when they don't have anything to do with that. It's all about posturing and manipulating the easily-manipulated masses.

Why do people discredit Bush because he was an oil man when every other politcian has vested interests as well? I personally prefer a leader who has been a successful businessman and entered politics late to someone like Teddy Kennedy who has spent his whole life mired in beauracracy.
     
LarryC
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Sep 20, 2002, 02:59 PM
 
Howdy all, I do realize that I might offend some of you by saying what I'm about to, but here goes anyway. As far as the republicans and the democrats are concerned, I am quite fearful of both of them. In the past I have viewed the replicans as the lesser of two evils, but I'm really beginning to wondr about that. I am of the belief that we (the U.S.) should simply mind our own business and stop trying to rule the world, we're making the same mistakes that the British empire made when they ruled the known world. I'm certain that the rest of the world hates America for a reason, the reason is that we have comitted and aided in atrocities the world over. I really believe that the founding fathers had the right idea when they warned that we should not get involved in the entanglements of Europe, and that we should never allow for the creation of a central bank (the so-called federal reserve). I wish I could recall the quote from jefferson where he warned of what would happen if we ever did allow for the creation of a central bank, suffice it to say that he was right on the mark. Someone once said that "We have found the enemy and it's us". Or something to that effect. We have become too complacent and to trusting in our government. Jefferson once said that government is like fire, it is necessary, but if it is not kept in check it will destroy everything. Benjamin Franklin once said that if someone gives up Liberty for temporary safety, he deserves neither. Just some things to think about.
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ringo
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Sep 20, 2002, 03:11 PM
 
Byrd nailed Rumsfield? In front of people? Did someone get this on camera?

That's some sick-ass porn.



Gay grandpa sex
     
xi_hyperon
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Sep 20, 2002, 03:55 PM
 
Originally posted by ringo:
Byrd nailed Rumsfield? In front of people? Did someone get this on camera?

That's some sick-ass porn.

Gay grandpa sex
With this thread's subject line, it was only a matter of time.
     
Bushleaguer
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:18 PM
 
Originally posted by LarryC:
Howdy all, I do realize that I might offend some of you by saying what I'm about to, but here goes anyway. As far as the republicans and the democrats are concerned, I am quite fearful of both of them. In the past I have viewed the replicans as the lesser of two evils, but I'm really beginning to wondr about that. I am of the belief that we (the U.S.) should simply mind our own business and stop trying to rule the world, we're making the same mistakes that the British empire made when they ruled the known world. I'm certain that the rest of the world hates America for a reason, the reason is that we have comitted and aided in atrocities the world over. I really believe that the founding fathers had the right idea when they warned that we should not get involved in the entanglements of Europe, and that we should never allow for the creation of a central bank (the so-called federal reserve). I wish I could recall the quote from jefferson where he warned of what would happen if we ever did allow for the creation of a central bank, suffice it to say that he was right on the mark. Someone once said that "We have found the enemy and it's us". Or something to that effect. We have become too complacent and to trusting in our government. Jefferson once said that government is like fire, it is necessary, but if it is not kept in check it will destroy everything. Benjamin Franklin once said that if someone gives up Liberty for temporary safety, he deserves neither. Just some things to think about.
Those are great points.
He's not a leader, he's a Texas leaguer..
Swingin' for the fence, got lucky with a strike..
Drilling for fear, makes the job simple..
Born on third, thinks he got a triple..
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:18 PM
 
Well, regarding Mr. Pope and Mr. WhoSane, I would put them in the same circle. Both the Vatican and the Iraq government are dictatorships incompatible with democracy and The Enlightenment. Saddam is still ebing held to account for former crimes and therefore the Vatican should too. Opus Dei, yes them again, are still responsible to this day some foreign policy decisions. Their members were in very prominent circles during the Reagan era, Pinochet era, Franco era and so on.

All should be held to account and hung by their balls.
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:21 PM
 
Originally posted by LarryC:
Howdy all, I do realize that I might offend some of you by saying what I'm about to, but here goes anyway. As far as the republicans and the democrats are concerned, I am quite fearful of both of them. In the past I have viewed the replicans as the lesser of two evils, but I'm really beginning to wondr about that. I am of the belief that we (the U.S.) should simply mind our own business and stop trying to rule the world, we're making the same mistakes that the British empire made when they ruled the known world. I'm certain that the rest of the world hates America for a reason, the reason is that we have comitted and aided in atrocities the world over. I really believe that the founding fathers had the right idea when they warned that we should not get involved in the entanglements of Europe, and that we should never allow for the creation of a central bank (the so-called federal reserve). I wish I could recall the quote from jefferson where he warned of what would happen if we ever did allow for the creation of a central bank, suffice it to say that he was right on the mark. Someone once said that "We have found the enemy and it's us". Or something to that effect. We have become too complacent and to trusting in our government. Jefferson once said that government is like fire, it is necessary, but if it is not kept in check it will destroy everything. Benjamin Franklin once said that if someone gives up Liberty for temporary safety, he deserves neither. Just some things to think about.
Remember that movie 'High Noon'? Those people were abandoning their freedoms for security and turned their back against the one man who could save them from tyrannical crimelords. That was made during the McCarthy era. Shamefully the same thing is happening again. A man cannot speak out without being called some funny name.
     
deedar
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Sep 20, 2002, 04:43 PM
 
Well said, LarryC, well said.
     
roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:34 PM
 
Originally posted by LarryC:
Howdy all, I do realize that I might offend some of you by saying what I'm about to, but here goes anyway. As far as the republicans and the democrats are concerned, I am quite fearful of both of them. In the past I have viewed the replicans as the lesser of two evils, but I'm really beginning to wondr about that. I am of the belief that we (the U.S.) should simply mind our own business and stop trying to rule the world, we're making the same mistakes that the British empire made when they ruled the known world. I'm certain that the rest of the world hates America for a reason ...
The rest of the world doesn't hate us. No question we have enemies but we also have friends - even in the Arab world. But those friends aren't going to stick their necks out for us if they think that in the end we're just going to bail. We're being watched and measured to see if we are serious. And if we're not, if we can't be trusted, if we're not resolved to respond to the twin threats posed by Saddam Hussein and Islamic radicalism, then friends are going to be even harder to come by.

Basically, you are just an isolationist. I understand why that feels like an attractive option but the world is a lot different from Jefferson's time. Isolationism is simply no longer possible. And even Jefferson saw the neccessity of waging war (against the Barbary pirates) to protect our interests.
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:44 PM
 
Isolationism only means to keep out military within our borders, everybody must comply with that. Isolationism means that government agencies must not tamper with the democratic process of other nations for the profit of a few vampire (see Venezuela or Chile) businessmen. Isolationism does not exclude global free trade. It simply espouses the preservation of a nation's culture while respecting the right for other people to preserve their own heritage. It means not imposing one's culture on others by force or threat of force. The form of democracy that the US claims to be spreading is worse that the corrupt form it has at home and an insult to the very idea of democracy. How can it be democratic for the US to choose leaders? Their past record isn't exactly great. See Saddam, see Pinochet, see Bin Ladin. All created by the CIA.
     
roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 05:51 PM
 
Originally posted by El Pre$idente:

... See Saddam, see Pinochet, see Bin Ladin. All created by the CIA.
Saddam and Bin Laden were not created by the CIA.
     
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Sep 20, 2002, 06:11 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Doesn't the Vatican State technically have a permanent population of 1? Everyone else in the Church retains the citizenship of their birth, even the accredited Vatican diplomats and the Swiss Guards. So it seems like a perfect democracy to me. There is one person ruling a state inhabited by only one person: himself!
From the Worldbook of Facts 2002:

People
Population: 890 (July 2001 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.15% (2001 est.)
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Bushleaguer
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Sep 20, 2002, 06:25 PM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:


Saddam and Bin Laden were not created by the CIA.
Prove it.
He's not a leader, he's a Texas leaguer..
Swingin' for the fence, got lucky with a strike..
Drilling for fear, makes the job simple..
Born on third, thinks he got a triple..
     
BlackGriffen
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Sep 20, 2002, 06:42 PM
 
Originally posted by absmiths:
I personally prefer a leader who has been a successful businessman
This gave me a good laugh, thank you! Bush was an absolute failure as a businessman. Even with daddy and all his rich friends to prop him up, he still failed at every business he tried. It was only when he rode his daddy's coat tails in to the governorship of Texas did he find is true vocation: head puppet.... I mean chief politician.

BlackGriffen
     
roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 07:37 PM
 
Originally posted by Bushleaguer:

Prove it.
No! That's not how it works. I don't have to prove a negative. The burden of proof belongs to the one making the accusation.
     
SimeyTheLimey
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Sep 20, 2002, 08:48 PM
 
Originally posted by MacGorilla:


From the Worldbook of Facts 2002:

People
Population: 890 (July 2001 est.)
Population growth rate: 1.15% (2001 est.)
Sigh. First of all, I was making a kind of a joke. But perhaps I should have been clearer. When I wrote
Doesn't the Vatican State technically have a permanent population of 1? Everyone else in the Church retains the citizenship of their birth, even the accredited Vatican diplomats and the Swiss Guards.
I perhaps should have explained what I meant by "permanent" and "technically" better.

What I mean is that although there are a lot of people present in the Vatican City, they aren't citizens of the Vatican State. All of them are just what you might call "resident aliens." But resident aliens can still be in a nation's population, which is why you have them in your statistics. In the case of the Vatican City, there is only one citizen, and he's the guy wearing white.

But as I say, I was basically only making a joke anyway since the Vatican City is clearly only a notional state in the first place.
     
LarryC
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Sep 20, 2002, 09:03 PM
 
Roger

Just because I don't think that we as a nation should attempt to control/rule other sovereign nations doesn't make me an isolationist. I've often heard that he who has to resort to name calling has lost the debate. You mentioned that we have some real friends in that part of the world (middle east I'm assuming) I'm very curious as to who that would be? I am thankful for forums such as this one that allow for a free flow of discussion, and I'm glad that I found this place.
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roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 09:18 PM
 
Originally posted by LarryC:
Roger

Just because I don't think that we as a nation should attempt to control/rule other sovereign nations doesn't make me an isolationist. I've often heard that he who has to resort to name calling has lost the debate.
Calling you an isolationist isn't name-calling. It's describing your position regarding this issue. Don't be so touchy.

You mentioned that we have some real friends in that part of the world (middle east I'm assuming) I'm very curious as to who that would be? I am thankful for forums such as this one that allow for a free flow of discussion, and I'm glad that I found this place.
There are many people within Iraq who are opposed to Hussein's regime and who would be willing to work with us (just like in Afghanistan). Turkey (not an Arab state) is a more reliable ally than many Western European countries. India has shown a great deal of willingness to have closer relations with us. Within Iran there's a very strong pro-U.S. sentiment among the young.
     
LarryC
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Sep 20, 2002, 09:58 PM
 
Just because there are "some" in those countries who aren't against us, means little if anything. The fact remains that the majority of the people who reside in those nations are very much opposed to america. To support this theory of mine I would remind you of the huge clelebrations that took place in those nations on 9-11. They were partying as though they had just won the lottery. I don't mean to imply that every single person in every single nation on the face of the earth despises us, but I seriously doubt if our approval exceeds 20%. The reason I say this is justified is because we as a nation do more to support and prop up despots and dictatorships than any other nation. When we send a few hundred million dollars to a starving african nation, the starving people don't ever see any of that money, the corrupt rulers of those places get that money, and they use that money to pay their militaries to protect them and keep themselves from being overthrown. The truth is, if we didn't support these jerks, their own people would overthrow them and maybe get a government that didn't cause their own people to starve. That example can be used in many countries and on many continents. We support almost every nation on the face of the globe. And if I think that is wrong, and if that makes me an isolationist than so be it. I was raised to believe that charity begins at home. We send billions of dollars a year to countries that wouldn't piss on us if we were on fire, why do we do that? Why do we support these people when at the same time we have elderly americans who have to choose between buying their food or buying their medications! I'm not a socialist, but if we're going to help the poor and the elderly, I believe we should take care of our own first, if that makes me an isolationist then I'm proud to be one. If I was going to have to lable myself as anything, I would choose to call myself a constitutionalist. Someone said that the words of our founders are no longer relevant, I strongly disagree, and suggest that anyone who feels that way should read what these wise men had to say by reading what they so eloquently wrote. This will be my last post tonight, I'm going to bed now, goodnight everyone.
LarryC
     
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Sep 20, 2002, 10:10 PM
 
Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Sigh. First of all, I was making a kind of a joke. But perhaps I should have been clearer. When I wrote I perhaps should have explained what I meant by "permanent" and "technically" better.

What I mean is that although there are a lot of people present in the Vatican City, they aren't citizens of the Vatican State. All of them are just what you might call "resident aliens." But resident aliens can still be in a nation's population, which is why you have them in your statistics. In the case of the Vatican City, there is only one citizen, and he's the guy wearing white.

But as I say, I was basically only making a joke anyway since the Vatican City is clearly only a notional state in the first place.
Sorry...my brain must have been on vacation when I read that
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roger_ramjet
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Sep 20, 2002, 10:35 PM
 
Originally posted by LarryC:
Just because there are "some" in those countries who aren't against us, means little if anything. The fact remains that the majority of the people who reside in those nations are very much opposed to america.
20% approval? You're just picking numbers out of thin air. I shouldn't need to remind you that Saddam maintains his power through terror. If he had the majority of his country behind him, that wouldn't be necessary. Iran's mullahs maintain their rule through repression and resistance to the growing internal pressures for reform that are building within that country. Turkey is a democracy. India is the world's largest democracy. That those two countries see their interests coinciding with ours is not data you should so casually brush aside.

As for how foreign aid is misused, Treasury Sec O'Neil has made a similar argument. But that doesn't make your earlier point about how we are trying to control/rule other sovereign nations. If we were, then that foreign aid wouldn't be squandered in the ways you describe.
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 21, 2002, 03:30 PM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:


There are many people within Iraq who are opposed to Hussein's regime and who would be willing to work with us (just like in Afghanistan). Turkey (not an Arab state) is a more reliable ally than many Western European countries. India has shown a great deal of willingness to have closer relations with us. Within Iran there's a very strong pro-U.S. sentiment among the young.
There are many people in America who oppose Bush's regime who would be willing to find foreign help to topple it I bet if the next elections were as fraudulent as the last...just like Saddam's elections (yes, he does have them and gets 99% of the vote).

Turkey is a state that denies Kurds the right to speak Kurdish so **** that. They bomb the Kurds in northern Iraq using the same runways the US use to protect the pipelines...I mean, Kurds.

India? How do they enter this debate? Or is this like the iCal thing?

Iran's youth is not pro-US. They are pro-Freedom. Two different things. There are people who want freedom all over the world and not US interference. The US holds no patent on democracy or freedom. But then I guess the US seems to lead the world in the idea that people can patent everything from words like 'tunes' to the genetic code of basmati rice.
     
finboy
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Sep 22, 2002, 10:12 AM
 
Responding to the title of the thread:

I KNEW Byrd was a rump ranger! I just knew it!
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 22, 2002, 11:28 AM
 
Originally posted by roger_ramjet:


Saddam and Bin Laden were not created by the CIA.
Bin Laden has been trained and supported by the CIA. He received training in Guerrillia tactics, etc. etc.

He was trained to fight off the Russians.

Here, here, and here. Three links should be enough for the first shot.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Zimphire
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Sep 22, 2002, 12:16 PM
 
Originally posted by OreoCookie:


Bin Laden has been trained and supported by the CIA. He received training in Guerrillia tactics, etc. etc.

He was trained to fight off the Russians.

Here, here, and here. Three links should be enough for the first shot.
They didn't create the man he is today. Stop being silly.
     
zigzag
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Sep 22, 2002, 02:17 PM
 
The U.S. did not create Hussein or bin Laden. However, the U.S, has been aligned with them at one time or another.

In WWII, the U.S. was allied with Stalin, arguably the most malevolent individual of modern times. You can look in any history book and see photos of Roosevelt and Churchill having lunch with him. Question: Does this make the U.S. responsible for his crimes? Does it mean that, once aligned with him, the U.S. had no right to oppose him subsequently? Should we have refused any alignment with Stalin despite the threats from Germany and Japan?

I'm not at this point in favor of a war on Iraq, but I think that any discussion about contemporary political alignments would benefit from posing these questions.
     
El Pre$idente  (op)
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Sep 22, 2002, 02:37 PM
 
Showing your support for someone who ideology is opposite to yours and then using them in/for warfare is the same as 'creating the monster they become'. By supporting them in their infancy you only create the person they become. It's like bad parenting.

Was there something wrong with the US supporting or creating a democratic movement in Iraq or Afghanistan against the Soviets or Ayatollah? Or does the CIA always pride itself with quashing democracy and creating enemies in order to keep perpetual and profitable warfare alive?

Basically, peace is not profitable for the military industry. It makes America's biggest businessmen shudder at night.
     
zigzag
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Sep 22, 2002, 02:55 PM
 
Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
Showing your support for someone who ideology is opposite to yours and then using them in/for warfare is the same as 'creating the monster they become'. By supporting them in their infancy you only create the person they become. It's like bad parenting.
You may be right - I didn't meant to suggest that the situations are perfectly analogous - but I do think that one has to consider a variety of factors in judging why, when and how the U.S. makes alignments. It's not as simple as "Are they nice people?". The enemy of our enemy and all that.

Was there something wrong with the US supporting or creating a democratic movement in Iraq or Afghanistan against the Soviets or Ayatollah? Or does the CIA always pride itself with quashing democracy and creating enemies in order to keep perpetual and profitable warfare alive?

Basically, peace is not profitable for the military industry. It makes America's biggest businessmen shudder at night.
I would have to leave it to someone more knowledgeable about whether it would have been feasible and effective under the circumstances for the U.S. to create a democratic movement in Iraq or Afghanistan against the Soviets or Ayatollah. As a practical matter, it sounds a bit far-fetched to me, but perhaps you are right.

I wouldn't argue with the proposition that peace isn't profitable for the military industry. The degree to which it drives foreign policy decisions is another question on which you may or may not be right.
     
   
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