[undotwa]

If you can, after you vote post a reason why you support or don't...

My reason? Every guy or gal has a right to live unless you are acting in self defense. Nothing justifies taking another human life (again, unless it's in self defense). Lock these guys up, they won't do anymore harm.

What do you believe?

[OreoCookie]

Barbaric. Many innocent people have been executed.
Come on, we are in the 21st century now.

[chris_h]

Completely barbaric and stupid.

Anyone who supports it can kiss my ass.

Oh, by the way, I'm starting a pool on how long it takes some idiot to come in and say "oh yeah well what about if someone breaks into your house, rapes your wife, kills her, kills your grandmother, rapes your grandmothers corpse, shoots your dog, wipes dirt on your carpet and kicks you in the scrotum? what then huh?"

I've got 5 bucks on 10 posts or less

[Zimphire]

I am against it. Having said that, I am also against abortion for the very same reasons.

[chris_h]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am against it. Having said that, I am also against abortion for the very same reasons.

well hell, you're not all bad

[Sven G]

Against both punishment and capital punishment: the very concept of "punishment against a crime" is something archaic and a symptom of disease in society.

If someone makes an "error", how horrible it might be, intelligent people should try to understand why, and then act on the perverse mechanisms that have produced such a criminal behavior (obvious crimes such as murder, etc.), which are almost always to be found in individual/social frustration and, of course, in economical motivations.

Imprisonment has widely been proven not only to be useless, but to enhance crime even more - indeed, a vicious circle...

(Of course, a society without crime is rather incompatible with today's "governments" and their "justice" - sic! - systems.)

[chris_h]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Against both punishment and capital punishment: the very concept of "punishment against a crime" is something archaic and a symptom of disease in society.

If someone makes an "error", how horrible it might be, intelligent people should try to understand why, and then act on the perverse mechanisms that have produced such a criminal behavior (obvious crimes such as murder, etc.), which are almost always to be found in individual/social debasement.

Imprisonment has widely been proven not only to be useless, but to enhance crime even more - indeed, a vicious circle...

(Of course, a society without crime is rather incompatoble with today's "governments" and their "justice" system.)

what

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by chris_h:


well hell, you're not all bad

<off topic>

That depends when you start defining the growing foetus as a Human being. I am not sure about my personal feelings about this although I am very much pro choice. I don't think that this is a decision anyone but the woman carrying the foetus can and should take.

</off topic>

[chris_h]

Originally posted by Mastrap:


<off topic>

That depends when you start defining the growing foetus as a Human being. I am not sure about my personal feelings about this although I am very much pro choice. I don't think that this is a decision anyone but the woman carrying the foetus can and should take.

</off topic>

every religion except white southern baptist is wrong and going to hell


also,


i hate arabs, jews, blacks, hell anyone who isn't white and speaks english



i mean, hell, if this is gonna be a flamefest, might as well be a good one ;-)

[Mastrap]

Originally posted by chris_h:



i mean, hell, if this is gonna be a flamefest, might as well be a good one ;-)

[Montanan]

It's barbaric ... I don't see how any thinking person could support capital punishment.

Simply put, the practice lowers the morals of a society to the level of the very people it wants to punish.

[malvolio]

Originally posted by Sven G:
If someone makes an "error", how horrible it might be, intelligent people should try to understand why, and then act on the perverse mechanisms that have produced such a criminal behavior (obvious crimes such as murder, etc.), which are almost always to be found in individual/social frustration and, of course, in economical motivations.

As a matter of fact, current research is finding definite physical differences from the norm in the brains of many violent criminals. I agree that social/economic factors can be the source of much crime, but certain folks just plain have "criminal minds." I just hope research can find treatment for these folks.
That being said, I support capital punishment in certain very extreme situations. An example that comes to mind is Israel hanging Adolf Eichmann.
Emotionally, I was not sorry to see Ted Bundy go, but intellectually I think it would have been better to keep him alive and study him.

[OldManMac]

The death penalty has nothing to do with justice: it is an instrument of revenge supported by those who have been grievously wronged. It can never be right for the state to tell its citizens that it is wrong to kill someone, and using the example of killing a citizen in the process. Those who kill others do so out of extreme passion, such as anger, jealousy, fear, etc., and they don't sit down rationally contemplating the consequences of their actions, so the argument that the death penalty is a deterrent is spurious at best. Besides that, it is, as others have pointed out many times, barbaric! The U.S. is one of the few "civilized" countries in the world where the death penalty still flourishes; this puts us in some pretty sad company.

[Nonsuch]

That the United States continues to execute its own citizens is a national disgrace.

It is a proven fact that capital punishment has no deterrent value.

It is a proven fact that capital cases cost more to try than non-capital cases, and that it costs more to support a prisoner on death row and execute him than it does to imprison him for his natural lifespan.

It is a proven fact that innocent people (at least, people innocent of the specific crimes of which they were convicted) have been put to death.

It is a proven fact that the death penalty is administered with gross unfairness, being applied far more often to minorities and the poor than to non-poor whites committing the same crimes.

How people can still argue for the death penalty in the face of this is beyond me. And that's ignoring the moral issues, which KarlG articulated quite well.

And chris_h, it looks like you're out 5 bucks, but then again the thread did go off-topic. Give it a little more time, I'm sure it will come up.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by Sven G:
Against both punishment and capital punishment: the very concept of "punishment against a crime" is something archaic and a symptom of disease in society.

If someone makes an "error", how horrible it might be, intelligent people should try to understand why, and then act on the perverse mechanisms that have produced such a criminal behavior (obvious crimes such as murder, etc.), which are almost always to be found in individual/social frustration and, of course, in economical motivations.

Imprisonment has widely been proven not only to be useless, but to enhance crime even more - indeed, a vicious circle...

(Of course, a society without crime is rather incompatible with today's "governments" and their "justice" - sic! - systems.)

Exactly.
If you punish someone, I don't think they will learn anything by the time they get out.

When someone in our society commits a crime, our prime interest should be that (s)he doesn't repeat that mistake.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:
When someone in our society commits a crime, our prime interest should be that (s)he doesn't repeat that mistake.

That sounds like a good argument in favor of capital punishment.

[MacGorilla]

I am generally against capital punishment. I make exceptions for the worst scum of humanity: Mass murderers, people who kill children and pedofiles.

[OreoCookie]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
That sounds like a good argument in favor of capital punishment.

Many persons that have been executed have later on been proved not guilty. This fact alone disqualifies capital punishment, you cannot revoke it (not really).

[macvillage.net]

Please edit poll for "More Death Penalty"


Lets start executing those who drive drunk, and sexually abuse children.



Seriously. I don't like how you have to be minority who killed a white guy to get it.

[Developer]

Several reasons exist. All against it. Pick the one of your choice:

- God gives life, god takes it - nobody else
- accidently executing an innocent is the most horrible mistake
- it is more expensive than imprisonment for life
- it doesn't reduce the crime rate
- the right to live is the most basic human right

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Mastrap:


<off topic>

That depends when you start defining the growing foetus as a Human being. I am not sure about my personal feelings about this although I am very much pro choice. I don't think that this is a decision anyone but the woman carrying the foetus can and should take.

</off topic>

What I ment is

1. Allot of the time we aren't 100% sure said person is to blame, but said person gets the chair anyhow.

2. We don't know 100% that said "fetus" isn't really a person just like you and mean that gets destroyed.

Since we don't know 100% on either one, neither should be happening.

The state shouldn't have the right to kill, and either should women.

[zigzag]

I oppose it not because I think it's inherently immoral, but because the risk of executing innocent people is too great. It's surprisingly easy to convict innocent people, even in the absence of corruption. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

It's not a deterrent anyway. I've never heard of a criminal saying "I think I'll hold off on this murder - I could tolerate life in prison, but not the death penalty". People who murder either expect to get away with it, or are not thinking at all. Even if someone could demonstrate a deterrent effect, it would not outweigh the risk of executing innocent people.

Between the risk of executing innocent people and the lack of a deterrent effect, it seems like a no-brainer to me. Kudos to the Governor of Illinois for recognizing this and declaring a moratorium.

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by OreoCookie:


Many persons that have been executed have later on been proved not guilty. This fact alone disqualifies capital punishment, you cannot revoke it (not really).

Ah, but you were specifically talking about the problem of recidivism with competing punishments. The recidivism rate with capital punishment is 0%.

Oreo, you really do seem to have a problem with humor. Been staying up late?

[Tigerabbit]

All capitals need to be punished, starting with DC, running thru the state capitals in alphabetical order, and then if we still have the energy, go after the county seats.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Tigerabbit:
All capitals need to be punished, starting with DC, running thru the state capitals in alphabetical order, and then if we still have the energy, go after the county seats.

I got a chuckle out of that. Thanks.

[Millennium]

Yes, for particularly grave murders, and possibly for extremely heinous rapes as well.

It's not revenge. It's simple justice. Kill an innocent person for no good reason, and your life is forfeit. Sounds fair to me.

There's a lot of talk about how we should instead "try to understand why someone made a mistake and correct whatever perversion caused it". Go ahead and tell me with a straight face any system where that's actually worked better than what we've got. Sure, the current system sucks, but until a demonstrably better one comes along, I'm sticking to it. And I have yet to see one that's demonstrably more effective (forget theories; I want results).

[Codename]

Yes. Eliminate them from the gene pool.

[Developer]

Originally posted by Codename:
Yes. Eliminate them from the gene pool.

You better let your genes checked, before you demand that.

[Bushleaguer]

Originally posted by Zimphire:
I am against it. Having said that, I am also against abortion for the very same reasons.

I stand for this statement as well, because in such a modern and complex society, we should be able to find another home for an unwanted child (I'm sad just saying that).. We should also be able to rehabilitate criminals rather than execute them.

On abortion, I think the question in many girls minds is not "should I keep the baby?" but instead "do I want to go thru pregnancy?" .. If the girl does not want the baby, she can give it up for adoption.. Sometimes even a person in her family will take the child. This happened in my family. My aunts daughter had a child, and couldn't raise her because of a handicap so my aunt raised the granddaughter as her own child.

But if the girl simply doesn't want to have a child, well she shouldn't be having sex or she should have taken more precautions. "The condom broke" isn't a good excuse for abortion. Abortion is now the "worst case scenario" form of birth control, and this has led to the degredation of society.

Back on topic, capital punishment is also wrong for pretty much the same reasons, already discussed in this thread. Laterz

[zigzag]

Originally posted by Millennium:
It's not revenge. It's simple justice. Kill an innocent person for no good reason, and your life is forfeit. Sounds fair to me.

Not to give you a hard time - I agree with you that CP is justified in some cases - but is there really a difference between revenge and justice in this context? "Revenge" sounds more crass, and "justice" sounds more noble, but I wonder if there's really a meaningful difference. If you can articulate one, I'd be interested in hearing it.

That said, I agree with you that there are circumstances in which CP is justified. I oppose it for more practical reasons, as stated previously.

[El Pre$idente]

Capital Punishment is like fighting terrorism with terrorism. Ah, no wonder George and John support it.

He's pro-death, he's pro-life. He's pro-freedom, he's pro-prison camps. He's pro-democracy, he believes in the Messianic king. What a **** up.

[elzinat]

the thing with capital punishment is that absolutely nobody gains anything from it. that stuff about families of victims "benefitting" from killing in return* is nonsense. all revenge does is make those people more able to hurt others, less moral, less human; it doesn't give them anything back. to say that anything which has no benefits, but great costs attached is good seems pretty darn retarded. but americans like going for such things.

*"return" serves here as a place-holder for both justice or revenge; which one you choose to interpret it as actually really does not matter at all. if your "justice" doesn't gain anybody anything, what's the point, i ask you? is justice qua itself supposed to have inherent value?




ow! what's that? >pulls bloody shard of glass out of hair< hmm... i'm going to stop throwing stones now

[Hinson]

Four points:

First, I support the death penalty but think it needs an overhaul: There needs to be very extreme situations involved AND there needs to be some burden of proof even beyond that of a usual conviction. For example, physical evidence alone should provide proof beyond ALL doubt that establishes guilt. Further, the proof should be so far beyond fault that much less time is needed for appeals, and such appeals should get some level of priority so that the punishment could be carried out within, say, a year. In the end, I might have a problem with some of the death penalty cases that are currently waiting on death row, but my problems are about how the system works, not about the morality of the death penalty and the justice that can be done in especially detestable cases.

Second, those who say it's wrong for the state to do something to others that it itself calls wrong, well what about imprisonment? Is it okay for me to go out and find someone I think did wrong and put them in a jail cell for a length of time I deem appropriate? No. But it is just and proper for the state to do it as a form of punishment. If someone is found guilt of kidnapping and holding someone against their will, then would it be wrong for the state to do the same to that person (hold them against their will)?

Third, for those saying that it's nothing but revenge, you miss four points: (1) all punishment involves revenge--the death penalty is not a special case here, (2) the death penalty also removes all possibility of the criminal committing what is (in my overhauled idea) an incredibly horrid crime again humanity, (3) it is clearly an act of justice (it is a just thing to make one sacrifice his life when he has acted in the most hideous way against life itself), and (4) if it is somewhat swiftly carried out, it could do some service as a deterrent.

Finally, look at the results of this poll so far. This is not a forum that represents most of America (and I don't really know how many participants are American, but anyway). That says something about this forum, and some will like what it says and praise it (probably in replies to this post :-), some won't.


-Jay

P.S. Comparing capital punishment to abortion is, in general, somewhat ludicrous. IF your argument against C.P. is that you believe no one has the right to take away another person's life, ever, then and ONLY then is it reasonable to link these two subjects. But you don't need that argument to be against abortion. Abortion, in my view, involves the destruction of innocent life. Capitol punishment does not. If you believe it is wrong to take human life _unjustly_, then taking innocent life can be deemed wrong while taking the life of a mass murderer can be deemed justifiable and right.

[Zimphire]

Originally posted by Hinson:


P.S. Comparing capital punishment to abortion is, in general, somewhat ludicrous. IF your argument against C.P. is that you believe no one has the right to take away another person's life, ever, then and ONLY then is it reasonable to link these two subjects.

And that was my point.

But you don't need that argument to be against abortion. Abortion, in my view, involves the destruction of innocent life. Capitol punishment does not. If you believe it is wrong to take human life _unjustly_, then taking innocent life can be deemed wrong while taking the life of a mass murderer can be deemed justifiable and right.

Don't you know? You life doesn't become important till your 18.

[voodoo]

Originally posted by Codename:
Yes. Eliminate them from the gene pool.

There is no way you have higher than average IQ. Read your own sentance again

[deekay1]

Originally posted by undotwa:
What do you believe?

a) capital punishment is highly ineffective in detering crime.

b) its way too expensive!

c) its inhumane...

i will not live in a country which uses such "corrective" measures.

[deekay1]

Originally posted by Codename:
Yes. Eliminate them from the gene pool.

[jcadam]

You say you don't like the death penalty?

oh yeah, well what about if someone breaks into your house, rapes your wife, kills her, kills your grandmother, rapes your grandmothers corpse, shoots your dog, wipes dirt on your carpet and kicks you in the scrotum? what then huh?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by deekay1:
i will not live in a country which uses such "corrective" measures.

Yea!

[voodoo]

Originally posted by jcadam:
You say you don't like the death penalty?

oh yeah, well what about if someone breaks into your house, rapes your wife, kills her, kills your grandmother, rapes your grandmothers corpse, shoots your dog, wipes dirt on your carpet and kicks you in the scrotum? what then huh?

[L'enfanTerrible]

Originally posted by El Pre$idente:
Capital Punishment is like fighting terrorism with terrorism. Ah, no wonder George and John support it.

He's pro-death, he's pro-life. He's pro-freedom, he's pro-prison camps. He's pro-democracy, he believes in the Messianic king. What a **** up.

That was so awesome. Never have I heard the hypocrisy of the religious right pointed out so well.

[daimoni]

.

[daimoni]

.

[L'enfanTerrible]

Originally posted by daimoni:
How many inmates sentenced to death (or were still on death row) have been found innocent (through DNA testing, etc.)?

How many inmates sentenced to life (without possibility of parole) have escaped from prison?

Which percentage is higher?

Think about it.

Forgive me, but are you saying that a high percentage of escapes justifies the execution of innocent people?

[SimeyTheLimey]

Originally posted by daimoni:
How many inmates sentenced to death (or were still on death row) have been found innocent (through DNA testing, etc.)?

How many inmates sentenced to life (without possibility of parole) have escaped from prison?

Which percentage is higher?

Think about it.

Wouldn't the proper comparison be how many inmates sentenced to death have been found innocent v. how many innocent people have been hurt by inmates who have escaped from prison?

[voodoo]

Originally posted by daimoni:
How many inmates sentenced to death (or were still on death row) have been found innocent (through DNA testing, etc.)?

How many inmates sentenced to life (without possibility of parole) have escaped from prison?

Which percentage is higher?

Think about it.

Well. Which percantage IS higer?? Anyone?

Daimoni?

I don't have the attention span to find out for myself as is, and since you seem to know something about it...

[daimoni]

.

[L'enfanTerrible]

Originally posted by SimeyTheLimey:
Wouldn't the proper comparison be how many inmates sentenced to death have been found innocent v. how many innocent people have been hurt by inmates who have escaped from prison?

I can't believe what I'm hearing.. Would daimoni or Simey please explain these two statements? Because it sounds like you are justifying the execution of innocent people..

[daimoni]

.

[L'enfanTerrible]

Originally posted by daimoni:



No.

I'm saying there's a low percentage of escapes vs. a high percentage of innocent people.

And when I mean low percentage of escapes... I mean for the worst offenders (maximum security 'lifers')... not work furlough 'fence hoppers'.

ooh ok.. I was thrown off because I assumed that there was a much higher percentage of people escaping than there were of people being proven innocent.. Sorry