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European prices - need to vent.
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Kees
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:22 AM
 
k, so I apologize beforehand if I come of like a whiner, but I need to get something off my chest.
I just specced out a 15" PowerBook, 1.67GHz, 512Mb RAM, 128Mb Radeon 9700 + combo drive from the Dutch Apple store.
It came out to €2239,-
Using todays euro to US dollar conversion rate, that comes to $3002,06!!
The US store would sell me the same machine for $2249,- (€1816,64)
Now, I fully expect prices in Holland to be higher, I gladly pay a little more through taxes to support a social security system that actually works.
But a $750,- premium??
that's just ridiculous. I tried a few other European stores, Spain was €60,- cheaper, Belgium was €30,- more expensive. Reasonable differences, as long as one doesn't look at US prices.
Maybe I should just buy a return ticket to the states, and see if I can get a Powerbook through customs unnoticed, I'll still save me a few hundred bucks...
     
Randman
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:25 AM
 
Email your politicians. Let them know.

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Kees  (op)
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:27 AM
 
Originally posted by Randman:
Email your politicians. Let them know.
hmm, it's Apple that is abusing the strong euro, even our taxes aren't THAT high...
     
Mulattabianca
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:27 AM
 
In US you don't pay the price you see, but they add a sales tax which depending on the satate can be 0-12% .. most commonly around 8-12% in big cities (NY, Chi, LA etc). So with 10% your difference comes to 300 $ .. in which case you can still claim for longer warranty for manufacturing defaults (at least, depending on Dutch laws).
::1 ::2 ::3 ::
     
Kees  (op)
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:36 AM
 
Originally posted by Mulattabianca:
In US you don't pay the price you see, but they add a sales tax which depending on the satate can be 0-12% .. most commonly around 8-12% in big cities (NY, Chi, LA etc). So with 10% your difference comes to 300 $ .. in which case you can still claim for longer warranty for manufacturing defaults (at least, depending on Dutch laws).
maybe my math's a little rusty, but if I add 10% to the US price, I'm still getting over $500,- price difference, that still hurts...
     
Hawkeye_a
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:39 AM
 
I have a few german, Italian and French friends here in Australia, who say everything in general is more expensive in western Europe....everything from red bull to Powerbooks.... thats why many of them love Australia, cause of the conversion rate and the fact that they pay less here for stuff even if you convert the amount they paid in AUD$ to EUs.

Its weird how that works eh ?
     
TETENAL
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:51 AM
 
Originally posted by Kees:
maybe my math's a little rusty, but if I add 10% to the US price, I'm still getting over $500,- price difference, that still hurts...
The Netherlands have 19% VAT, not 10%.

The machine costs $2,249 in the USA that would make €1754. Add the sales tax and you are at €2088. You have to pay €2249 which is 7.7% over the US price. If you consider the longer legal guarantee you come out about equal.
( Last edited by TETENAL; Apr 10, 2005 at 08:08 AM. )
     
Athens
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:00 AM
 
Originally posted by Kees:
k, so I apologize beforehand if I come of like a whiner, but I need to get something off my chest.
I just specced out a 15" PowerBook, 1.67GHz, 512Mb RAM, 128Mb Radeon 9700 + combo drive from the Dutch Apple store.
It came out to €2239,-
Using todays euro to US dollar conversion rate, that comes to $3002,06!!
The US store would sell me the same machine for $2249,- (€1816,64)
Now, I fully expect prices in Holland to be higher, I gladly pay a little more through taxes to support a social security system that actually works.
But a $750,- premium??
that's just ridiculous. I tried a few other European stores, Spain was €60,- cheaper, Belgium was €30,- more expensive. Reasonable differences, as long as one doesn't look at US prices.
Maybe I should just buy a return ticket to the states, and see if I can get a Powerbook through customs unnoticed, I'll still save me a few hundred bucks...
Canadians feel or should say felt your pain. Until Recently the price difference for Macs for us was around the same.
Blandine Bureau 1940 - 2011
Missed 2012 by 3 days, RIP Grandma :-(
     
theolein
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:03 AM
 
This isn't only Apple, to be fair, but Apple is one of the worst abusers. Almost all technical goods cost more here than they do in the US, even though almost everything is made in Asia, AND, the dollar has fallen heavily against the Euro. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't some kind of cartel agreement that keeps prices of US goods high. Perhaps an e-mail to the EU commision would work wonders?

That said, your Powerbook (15", 1,67GHz 512MB RAM, 80GB HD, 128MB Radeon 9700, Combodrive - NOT Superdrive, which is what you stated and what the Dutch store charges for Combo ) comes to € 2028,- here in Switzerland, i.e. over € 200 cheaper.... Switzerland is a easier to get a Powerbook from, border and tax wise, than the US, I would think, since you could simply put the box in the boot of your car.

Still, petrol or flight costs will eat up most of that difference, so unless you know somebody that is going to Holland for a few days, it probably isn't worth it.
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Mulattabianca
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:10 AM
 
Originally posted by Athens:
Canadians feel or should say felt your pain. Until Recently the price difference for Macs for us was around the same.
In 2002, to buy a standard configuration iBook it was actually cheaper to get the flights from Italy to NYC and buy the iBook there than buy it directly in Italy... so at least teh price differences are not that bad any more.
::1 ::2 ::3 ::
     
TETENAL
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:14 AM
 
Switzerland is cheaper due to the the lower VAT which he can't profit from since he has to pay import turnover tax at the border. He would also need an additional Dutch keyboard.

€1754 (US price) * 1.076 (Swiss-VAT) * 1.077 (Apple's-Euro-bonus) = €2033

actual Swiss price is €2028 so basically the machine costs the same in Switzerland as everywhere else.
     
OisΓ­n
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Apr 10, 2005, 08:57 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
The Netherlands have 19% VAT, not 10%.

The machine costs $2,249 in the USA that would make €1754. Add the sales tax and you are at €2088. You have to pay €2249 which is 7.7% over the US price. If you consider the longer legal guarantee you come out about equal.
Still, the price without VAT is $2,249 (€1,754) in the US store, while in the Dutch store it's $2,428 (€1,881). The VAT is out of Apple's control, so counting it in isn't really 'fair'. You can't tell me it's almost $200 more expensive to ship a PB from China to the Netherlands than to the US.

I don't know how it works in the Netherlands, but for Denmark, the main part of the price difference is that when you buy something electronic, the price excluding VAT already includes a certain amount of taxes, which are rather high here. The price for the same setup on the Danish store is DKr 13,927.20 ($2,417.83 / €1,872.90) without VAT and DKr 17,409.- ($3,022.29 / €2,341.13) with VAT. The price of the machine without the taxes already levied on it before the sale goes through would probably be less than $1,700 (I'm guessing - I don't know exactly how high these taxes are).

But, as usual, the pre-levied taxes and VAT causes us to pay more than everybody else (except Norway - they're €50 more expensive than us)
( Last edited by Oisνn; Apr 10, 2005 at 10:29 AM. )
     
Randman
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:26 AM
 
There's only one solution:


MOVE!!!!

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bubblewrap
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:33 AM
 
Ahh, good old socialist taxes on luxury items.
At least someone is getting "free" healthcare from your contribution.
To create a universe
You must taste
The forbidden fruit.
     
OisΓ­n
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:40 AM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
At least someone is getting "free" healthcare from your contribution.
Yeah, I am. Why "free", though? I mean, apart from the persnickety argument that nothing can ever be free in the end, it is mostly free (when I say 'mostly', it's because dental care isn't included in free healthcare here, the state only pays part of your dental care expenses). You go to hospital or the ER, you don't pay for it, besides through your taxes.

Anyway, that's completely off-topic, moving along then...
     
Kees  (op)
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Apr 10, 2005, 09:51 AM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
The Netherlands have 19% VAT, not 10%.

The machine costs $2,249 in the USA that would make €1754. Add the sales tax and you are at €2088. You have to pay €2249 which is 7.7% over the US price. If you consider the longer legal guarantee you come out about equal.
I have to pay €2239,-, including tax, that's $3000,-. In the states, I would pay $2249 for the same machine. If I add 10% tax to that figure, I'm up to $2474,-, that's over $500,- difference, plain and simple.

If we just look at what is under Apple's control, we should compare prices before tax, it's €1881,51 ($2522,73) here, $2249,- in the States. So Apple is charging $273,73 more for the same machine, shipped from China. So it seems fair to say that half of the premium is because of taxes, and the other half is Apple profiting big time from the strong euro
( Last edited by Kees; Apr 10, 2005 at 10:05 AM. )
     
TailsToo
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:02 AM
 
Originally posted by Mulattabianca:
In 2002, to buy a standard configuration iBook it was actually cheaper to get the flights from Italy to NYC and buy the iBook there than buy it directly in Italy... so at least teh price differences are not that bad any more.

In the late 90s, that happened a lot - pretty much all of South America would take a trip to Miami to buy a laptop and then fly back. It would cost them less to do that than to buy one in their native country.
     
TETENAL
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:04 AM
 
Originally posted by Kees:
I have to pay €2239,-, including tax, that's $3000,-.
$2870

In the states, I would pay $2249 for the same machine. If I add 10% tax to that figure, I'm up to $2474,-,
Why are you adding 10%? You have to pay 19% VAT in the Netherlands. That would come out as $2676.
that's over $500,- difference, plain and simple.
It's less than $200 or about € 150. That covers the longer legal guarantee, fees charged by collection agencies, a buffer to protect Apple from currency fluctuations as well as probably some Euro bonus Apple charges. But it's not as bad as you want to make it look.
     
analogika
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Apr 10, 2005, 10:21 AM
 
Originally posted by bubblewrap:
Ahh, good old socialist taxes on luxury items.
At least someone is getting "free" healthcare from your contribution.
Sales tax is flat.

There is no luxury tax on computers.

But yes, running a business in Europe *is* somewhat more expensive, which may, in addition to the reasons mentioned by tetenal, contribute to the 7.7% price difference.

However, as you note, "someone" is getting FREE (no quotes there) healthcare for it.

In fact, all of us are.

It's a comfort to know that I'll never have to sell my tools of livelihood to save my life, should I ever desperately need an operation or so.

But hey, that's off-topic, innit.

-s*
     
spatterson
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Apr 10, 2005, 12:01 PM
 
Originally posted by Kees:
k, so I apologize beforehand if I come of like a whiner, but I need to get something off my chest.
I just specced out a 15" PowerBook, 1.67GHz, 512Mb RAM, 128Mb Radeon 9700 + combo drive from the Dutch Apple store.
It came out to €2239,-
Using todays euro to US dollar conversion rate, that comes to $3002,06!!
The US store would sell me the same machine for $2249,- (€1816,64)
Now, I fully expect prices in Holland to be higher, I gladly pay a little more through taxes to support a social security system that actually works.
But a $750,- premium??
that's just ridiculous. I tried a few other European stores, Spain was €60,- cheaper, Belgium was €30,- more expensive. Reasonable differences, as long as one doesn't look at US prices.
Maybe I should just buy a return ticket to the states, and see if I can get a Powerbook through customs unnoticed, I'll still save me a few hundred bucks...
If your in the service or work for the military, try AAFES. I've been out for about a year now, but I know they carried them while I was in.
     
theolein
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Apr 10, 2005, 03:49 PM
 
Originally posted by TETENAL:
Switzerland is cheaper due to the the lower VAT which he can't profit from since he has to pay import turnover tax at the border. He would also need an additional Dutch keyboard.

€1754 (US price) * 1.076 (Swiss-VAT) * 1.077 (Apple's-Euro-bonus) = €2033

actual Swiss price is €2028 so basically the machine costs the same in Switzerland as everywhere else.
Although this is arguing over pithy details, the chances that anyone would notice a laptop when going across the border from Switzerland to Germany or France are minimal and probably wouldn't really interest the border guards either, since Kess is Dutch, not German or French.

Also, the only symbol on the Dutch alphabet that doesn't exist in other alpahbets is the "ij" symol, which really shouldn't be a problem since you can just type an "i" and a "j".

Kees, je ken zeker wel iemand, die van tijd tot tijd naar Switserland toe kom of je vind zeker iemand. Zeg hem/haar dat ze een laptop voor jou zullen meebrengen.
( Last edited by theolein; Apr 10, 2005 at 04:03 PM. )
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gerbnl
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Apr 10, 2005, 05:53 PM
 
Originally posted by Kees:
Maybe I should just buy a oneway ticket to the states...
By all means do and rid this still mostly pleasant country of your whining presence.
These people are Americans. Don't expect anything meaningful or... uh... normalcy...
     
piot
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Apr 10, 2005, 06:18 PM
 
Originally posted by Kees:

I just specced out a 15" PowerBook, 1.67GHz, 512Mb RAM, 128Mb Radeon 9700 + combo drive from the Dutch Apple store.
It came out to €2239,-
Using todays euro to US dollar conversion rate, that comes to $3002,06!!
The US store would sell me the same machine for $2249,- (€1816,64)

But a $750,- premium?? that's just ridiculous.
I wish you guys would at least try and get some of your facts right before you start moaning!

€ 2239.00 = Cost of Powerbook in Euros

$ 2894.79 = Converted at today's (NON TOURIST RATE!) into US dollars
$ 2249.00 = Cost of same machine at the US store in dollars
---------
$ 645.79 = The difference in price ! ( 462.19 of those dollars goes to your Government)
__________
$ 183.60= THE REAL DIFFERENCE IN PRICE

If there is such a thing as an 'Apple Euro Surcharge', then in your case it comes to a mere 8%.
Piot
     
ghporter
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Apr 10, 2005, 07:03 PM
 
Originally posted by spatterson:
If your in the service or work for the military, try AAFES. I've been out for about a year now, but I know they carried them while I was in.
This is a good point; if you are in Europe because of your work, you can often find better prices through your employer. If you are military or a DoD employee/contractor, AAFES is also a good alternative, though their website doesn't show anything from Apple right now (they DO have iPods in the stores).

Apple offers a special Government Employees store-look under the list that says More Stores.

Glenn -----OTR/L, MOT, Tx
     
Kees  (op)
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Apr 11, 2005, 02:01 AM
 
Originally posted by kees:
Maybe I should just buy a oneway ticket to the states...[/B]

Originally posted by gerbnl:
By all means do and rid this still mostly pleasant country of your whining presence.
please keep immature posts in your own name, changing someone else's post is generally considered very bad form.

En als je echt Nederlander bent; het zijn juist mensen zoals jij, diegenen die over de kleinste dingen onmiddelijk beginnen te zeiken, die dit land minder aangenaam maken. Ik heb me ten minste nog bij voorbaat verontschuldigd.
     
turtle777
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Apr 11, 2005, 05:39 AM
 
Pff, welcome to reality.

And a gallon of gas is around $ 6.50.

-t
     
Link
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Apr 11, 2005, 05:46 AM
 
What about duties, shipping costs, the fact that apple has to support your powerbook for a longer period of time (and powerbooks break easier than powermacs!), and the costs apple might have to pay for having a business presence in your locality? Admittedly, apple does generally ship the powerbooks straight out from their overseas factories, so shipping costs might not be a heck of a lot, but even then, money is money and they have to pay to sell you a laptop in your country.
Aloha
     
Randman
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Apr 11, 2005, 05:50 AM
 
Ah, the joys of a strong euro.

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Weyland-Yutani
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Apr 11, 2005, 09:22 AM
 

β€œBuilding Better Worlds”
     
Mastrap
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Apr 11, 2005, 11:19 AM
 
Originally posted by analogika:


However, as you note, "someone" is getting FREE (no quotes there) healthcare for it.

In fact, all of us are.

It's a comfort to know that I'll never have to sell my tools of livelihood to save my life, should I ever desperately need an operation or so.

     
Shaddim
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Apr 11, 2005, 12:20 PM
 
Originally posted by analogika:
However, as you note, "someone" is getting FREE (no quotes there) healthcare for it.

In fact, all of us are.

It's a comfort to know that I'll never have to sell my tools of livelihood to save my life, should I ever desperately need an operation or so.
I feel the same way. It's a real relief, isn't it? Whew.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it."
- Thomas Paine
     
   
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