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You are here: MacNN Forums > Hardware - Troubleshooting and Discussion > Mac Desktops > New Power Mac coming up!

New Power Mac coming up!
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Simon
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Sep 16, 2005, 03:04 AM
 
This TS article has some rumors on the upcoming Power Mac revision. It could be announced as early as next week at Apple Expo Paris.

At least the top model is supposed to get the Antares dual-core 970MP although Antares only goes up to 2.5 GHz according to IBM. Current Power Mac sales are claimed to be slow. Duh.

And, get a hold of this: "The 970MP is said to deliver performance improvements of 50-80% in many tasks over the single-core 970FX." Are they trying to say that the two cores in Antares are going to deliver only 50-80% efficiency increase over a similarly clocked single core FX? I'd expect at least 100% gain given the time IBM has had to get Antares out the door. But if I understand correctly, they say the new cores are less efficient than the old ones and they're clocked lower. Umm... Looks like it's gonna have to be dual duals to stay competitive.

When was Intel's Conroe supposed to come to the Power Mac?
     
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Sep 16, 2005, 04:34 AM
 
Dual-core cpus are always clocked lower than its single-core counterparts. Intel's Pentium D runs at merely 3.2 GHz tops (the highest clocked Intel CPU runs at 3.83 GHz). And you'll never get 100 % increase when adding a second core, 80-90 % are usually as good as it gets. Each core for itself is efficient as a single core, but you can't just add the cpu horsepower. IBM also just cooks with water.

So IBM does the same as its competition, AMD and Intel. I'm not sure why you are disappointed.
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Simon  (op)
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Sep 16, 2005, 05:03 AM
 
Given they had two years of dev time from the FX to Antares, I'd expect more than 50-80% increase from twice the number of cores. I'm pretty sure you'd measure the same 50-80% when running a dual FX against a single FX machine. And since we're not getting more clock with Antares either, it just all seams pretty humble IMHO.
     
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Sep 16, 2005, 05:09 AM
 
Look at the Pentium D, same game -- lower clock speed than its single-core flavor and also no 100 % speed increase. It's a matter of physics and engineering, develop all you want, but you can't beat the laws of physics. On the contrary, that's exactly the point of having two cores: lower power consumption but getting higher speeds.
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Maflynn
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Sep 16, 2005, 06:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
Given they had two years of dev time from the FX to Antares, I'd expect more than 50-80%...
And since we're not getting more clock with Antares either, it just all seams pretty humble IMHO.
2 years isn't a long time to develop CPU changes/enhancements, in fact it seems down right quick. comparativly look at how long intel and amd are taking, I could be mistaken but I thought it was taking intel longer for dual cores.

As others have stated the situation is the same in the intel world too.

On true multi-processor computer your not getting a 100% speed increase either, there's other restrictions, such as bandwidth, thread division, serialization.

My only knock is that we don't see it in a mac and we now need to wait for a new platform which means it doesn't make sense for me to buy a new mac (if they're introduced).

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Sep 16, 2005, 07:05 AM
 
Could someone explain if a single dual core CPU PC would be more efficient than a dual CPU PC, assuming both had the same configuration and speed (say dual-core CPU @ 2.5GHz vs. a Dual single-core set of CPUs at 2.5GHZ)?

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Simon  (op)
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Sep 16, 2005, 07:32 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
On the contrary, that's exactly the point of having two cores: lower power consumption but getting higher speeds.
That's exactly my problem, it looks like we won't be getting higher speeds. We'll have two cores, with the second core delivering 50-80% of additional efficiency but this is all at a lower clock. How's that supposed to beat two separate FX cores running at a higher clock?

If these rumors are true, we'll basically only see a real gain if Apple releases dual duals.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 16, 2005, 08:02 AM
 
Originally Posted by Simon
That's exactly my problem, it looks like we won't be getting higher speeds. We'll have two cores, with the second core delivering 50-80% of additional efficiency but this is all at a lower clock. How's that supposed to beat two separate FX cores running at a higher clock?

If these rumors are true, we'll basically only see a real gain if Apple releases dual duals.
Because you could put two cpus (with four cores) in a computer or for less have two cores in systems like an iMac. They would be approximately as fast as dual cpu PowerMacs.

So having four cores is a clear advantage, don't you think?
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zac4mac
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Sep 16, 2005, 11:10 AM
 
The way I understand all the hoopla around dual cores, a dual core system should be a little faster than one with two discrete processors. Reason being shorter data paths, shared caches and fewer supporting components. The dual core I'd really like to see is the Freescale G4 - in a PowerBook..

These chips have got to be pricey tho - how much is Apple gonna stick us for a dual dual-core PM?? I don't know if I'm ready to upgrade anyway. I dropped almost $4K two years ago on a DP2G5 and it's still faster than I need most of the time.

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Simon  (op)
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Sep 16, 2005, 11:58 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
So having four cores is a clear advantage, don't you think?
Certainly.

It's just that there's a big chance we might not get four. If we get a high-end Power Mac with a single 2.5GHz MP, it will be a step down from the current dual 2.7GHz FXs.
     
songoku912
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:39 PM
 
If Apple introduces the lowest priced G5 with a single dual core chip, I may have to start saving up. It would be the only one in my price range.
     
Simon  (op)
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Sep 16, 2005, 12:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by songoku912
If Apple introduces the lowest priced G5 with a single dual core chip, I may have to start saving up. It would be the only one in my price range.
I'd appreciate it if they introduce such a model as entry-level. And then dual duals for those who really need all the power they can get

• 2.3 GHz single MP, $1799
• 2.3 GHz dual MP, $2499
• 2.5 GHz dual MP, $2999
     
Eug Wanker
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Sep 16, 2005, 01:17 PM
 
I was thinking maybe something like this:

2.2 GHz single MP: $1899 but crippled.
2.5 GHz single MP: $2399
2.5 GHz dual MP: $2999 (or perhaps more)

And for the dual MP doubters, FWIW we should remember this:

     
jcadam
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Sep 16, 2005, 01:58 PM
 
meh, if you're like me and already own a G5-class machine (especially a DP one), you'll be waiting for the Mactels to buy a new box. I really don't see PPC PowerMacs selling well over the next year.
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Todd Madson
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Sep 16, 2005, 02:18 PM
 
Thinking:
I was at the Apple store in Edina, Minnesota last night while a friend was waiting
for the genius bar folks to look at his Mac Mini.

I was testing out Garage Band on a single G5 2.0 system and doing mixes of
what I was making, importing it into iTunes and exporting the MP3 via email
to my home account (the muse strikes in odd places).

I got home and noticed my dual 2.5 was at least ten times faster at exporting
Garageband tracks into iTunes. THAT is why I paid extra for a dual I suspect.
Some operations are just stupid fast.

A four cpu dual dual 2.5 would be quite extraordinary I think.

People pay too much attention to clock speed. It's now about power per
watt really.

But if the computer feels faster then it is faster. MHZ is just part of the story.

Think about it - FOUR 2.5 ghz CPUs integrated with the operating system will
be extraordinary no matter how dissappointed you are that a 3 isn't in the clock
speed.
( Last edited by Todd Madson; Sep 16, 2005 at 02:25 PM. Reason: clarity problem)
     
Eug Wanker
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Sep 16, 2005, 02:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by jcadam
meh, if you're like me and already own a G5-class machine (especially a DP one), you'll be waiting for the Mactels to buy a new box. I really don't see PPC PowerMacs selling well over the next year.
I don't see them selling that much more poorly either. Remember, if you depend on you desktop to make money, you want something that is tried and true.

The G5 is tried and true. Mactels will have compatibility issues for quite some time. It may be moot however. I don't expect the Power Macs to be going Intel until 2007 anyway.
     
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Sep 16, 2005, 05:48 PM
 
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Lateralus
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Sep 16, 2005, 07:37 PM
 
*Whips out VISA debit card in anticipation of Dual-Dual*
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Sep 17, 2005, 09:24 PM
 
I hope this is true. I have an expiring ADC discount in mid October, and I'd love to snatch a "Dual-Dual" G5. However, I won't really cry if I have to get a DP 2.7, unless the"Dual-Dual" ends up being announced right after I receive shipment of the "old" G5.
     
Taipan
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Sep 18, 2005, 06:39 AM
 
Hi!

I don't think the PowerMacs will make a big jump in CPU power with the next update, because that would mean that the jump towards the Intel machines would be smaller (regarding cpu power). I'd rather expect them to do smaller updates until then, so they can sell the Intel machines more easily later on.
     
Eug Wanker
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Sep 18, 2005, 12:02 PM
 
Originally Posted by Taipan
Hi!

I don't think the PowerMacs will make a big jump in CPU power with the next update, because that would mean that the jump towards the Intel machines would be smaller (regarding cpu power). I'd rather expect them to do smaller updates until then, so they can sell the Intel machines more easily later on.
I'd be surprised if the Power Macs make the switch to Intel before 2007. Late 2006 at the earliest.

And who cares if the jump isn't humungous, as long as it's a jump?
     
sonicularulus
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Sep 18, 2005, 01:46 PM
 
i would just love to see a new powerbook..powermacs are fine they currently are (it would be nice to see a dual core dual processor...)
     
Chinasaur
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Sep 18, 2005, 05:13 PM
 
Even though I bought a Dual 1.8 G5 a few months back, I WILL buy one of the Dual Core MP PPC machines when they are available..or shortly thereafter.

It will be a monster on Dnet OGR.
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G5man
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Sep 18, 2005, 05:27 PM
 
wouldnt developers have to make programs that use the dual core technology in order to take power of the dual core?
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Al G
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Sep 18, 2005, 06:25 PM
 
No. At least not any more than they currently have to do threading for the dual CPU machines that already exist.
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Sep 19, 2005, 01:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
I'd be surprised if the Power Macs make the switch to Intel before 2007. Late 2006 at the earliest.

And who cares if the jump isn't humungous, as long as it's a jump?
would a single 970MP @ 2.5GHZ be a serious bump to a 2x 970FX @ 2.3GHz? i don't think so. the bigger cache will help, but how much improvement (performance wise) would there be?
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Sep 19, 2005, 02:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by mousehouse
would a single 970MP @ 2.5GHZ be a serious bump to a 2x 970FX @ 2.3GHz? i don't think so. the bigger cache will help, but how much improvement (performance wise) would there be?
You won't see an improvement at all. I can only speculate about the speed, but I don't think your machine would be significantly faster nor significantly slower. Why would you want to replace a such a nice machine?
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mousehouse
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Sep 19, 2005, 03:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie
You won't see an improvement at all. I can only speculate about the speed, but I don't think your machine would be significantly faster nor significantly slower. Why would you want to replace a such a nice machine?
I just ordered one this weekend which is due to arrive early next week The only thing that would make me consider sending it back would be the announcement of a dual-dual 2.3 as the midrange PM model if it's about the same price point. OTOH I have been holding off on this purchase for so long that if these dual-duals have a long initial shipping delay I'd still hold on to the DP2.3...
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:03 AM
 
I always thought they'd hold on the delivery and send the new one if it was due? That's what happened when I bought my iBook.
     
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Sep 20, 2005, 03:38 AM
 
Originally Posted by Alcoholica
I always thought they'd hold on the delivery and send the new one if it was due? That's what happened when I bought my iBook.
Only if they announce a new one within 10 days of your purchase date.
     
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Sep 20, 2005, 09:31 AM
 
I wonder about heat. If you think the current dual G5s get hot (and they do). Imagine 4 processors in the box.

BTW, Paris Expo has began with no new Powermac announcement.
     
Todd Madson
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Sep 20, 2005, 11:49 AM
 
Well, technically it would be two dual core processors. Heat would certainly be interesting.

Last winter my wife and I would close-up the computer room we have our machines in
and it would get nice and toasty.

Can't wait to see what G5 heat with no nap and high performance set will be like.
     
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Sep 20, 2005, 11:52 AM
 
No powermac coming yet it seems.
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intake
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Oct 5, 2005, 10:32 AM
 
Well, I ran out of time and had to order before my ADC membership (and discount) expired.

Order 2.7 Dual, 1 Gb Ram, Airport+Bluetooth, Superdrive.

I'm still happy.
     
mousehouse
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Oct 5, 2005, 11:14 AM
 
Originally Posted by intake
Well, I ran out of time and had to order before my ADC membership (and discount) expired.

Order 2.7 Dual, 1 Gb Ram, Airport+Bluetooth, Superdrive.

I'm still happy.
You will be a very happy camper! My DP2.3 came in last week and I couldn't be happier, I *love* this machine. Good luck with your purchase...
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KidRed
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Oct 5, 2005, 11:17 AM
 
Well, my dual gig is chugging along. Hopefully, Think Secret will be right about PM updates this month.
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intake
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Oct 5, 2005, 04:00 PM
 
I'm hoping that new PMs are announced on on the 12th, as my system is scheduled to ship on the 14th. Here's hoping for a free upgrade bump, or a price reduction. Not that I'm complaining. I'm only paying $2600 for the Dual 2.7 thru ADC. It will be a welcome speed boost. The MDD/867 is kinda lagging for heavy video editing and encoding, not to mention that it doesn't event have a DVD burner.
     
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Oct 5, 2005, 04:06 PM
 
     
Al G
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Oct 5, 2005, 04:25 PM
 
I have to say no way on this. I'll bet a dozen doughnuts that Thinksecret is just plain wrong. Maybe they were fed misinformation by Apple.

I just can't see Apple holding a special event to announce speed-bumped CPUs in Powermacs or Powerbooks. I don't think even quad-core Powermacs would warrant a special event. It has to be something else.
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KidRed
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Oct 5, 2005, 04:40 PM
 
Dual Core G5s would not be a speed bump. They would require new motherboards, etc. Also getting over 3 ghz is a big deal.

I think it's airport express with video out to stream movies to your TV that you just downloaded from the new iTunes movie store for $8.
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Oct 5, 2005, 04:56 PM
 
Originally Posted by Eug Wanker
Apple would do a special event for something that more widespread appeal... like iPods with new features (video? nahh.....!)

OK. I edited to add that ThinkSecret says PMs and PBs. An updated 5G iPod Maxi would hurt the nano, and we all know how Apple likes to withhold products that compete with itself (like iMacs faster than PMs, eMacs faster than iMacs, and iBooks faster/as fast as PBs.)

It sucks, but it's all part of the strategy (stragety? I watch too much Bugs Bunny!) of product timing.
( Last edited by Eriamjh; Oct 5, 2005 at 06:40 PM. )

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Oct 5, 2005, 11:28 PM
 
I can see an Apple special event for a G5 powerbook with a higher resolution screen and dual core Powermacs >=3GHz.

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Lateralus
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Oct 5, 2005, 11:38 PM
 
Originally Posted by KidRed
Dual Core G5s would not be a speed bump. They would require new motherboards, etc.
No, they wouldn't. AFAIK, the 970MP is pin-compatible with the rest of the 97x family. And even if it weren't, pin changes wouldn't require a whole new motherboard design.
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Oct 6, 2005, 01:17 AM
 
While I was convinced (along with many others) that the 10/12 announcement would be regarding a 5th gen iPod, after reading this thread and the TS article, I'm starting to think you guys may be right in thinking the announcement many be just what TS says.
From a highly personal perspective, as someone who bought a Dual 2.7 G5 about two months ago, I am happy to say that I won't be pissed off if they announce a new, faster PowerMac. Why? I bought mine before two (technically speaking) Apple product announcements, both of which came and went leaving me still on the cutting edge. These days, about 2-4 months on the edge is a long time. I dig my new G5 BIGTIME and if they release a quad based Mac or even a dual 3Ghz (doubtful) I won’t look back.
Whatever they do, I just hope to helps the company in its long range plans. While Steve says Mac OS X will not be allowed to run on generic boxes, I firmly believe this is short term. In the long term he wants it running on everything from Macintels to beige boxes to your toaster oven. Steve is after history here, folks. He wants the history books to read "Steve Jobs is the father of modern computing" and doesn’t want Gates' name on the page.
Can he do it? Tough call, but if anyone can, it’s he.

As for the product announcements, at this point I think a substantial update to the PowerBook line would be more important than the PowerMacs. We shall see.
( Last edited by crooner; Oct 6, 2005 at 06:47 AM. )

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ajprice
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Oct 6, 2005, 04:01 AM
 
What does a Powermac/Powerbook update have to do with the red theatre curtains on the invite?

It'll be much easier if you just comply.
     
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Oct 6, 2005, 09:10 AM
 
What does anything have to do with curtains? They are to hide something, to cover before unveiling. I think you might be reading too much into them.

Lateralus- I had read on another site, AppleInsider maybe, that the dual core would have something new, I thought it was the motherboard, it may have been something else. Either way, going to dual core would be much more then a speed bump.
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Oct 6, 2005, 10:03 AM
 
Is it too much to hope that Apple will announce bumped PMs/PBs and a new product? After all the invitation does say 'One more thing.' I originally thought that meant 'one more thing after the iPod Nano,' but maybe Jobs will discuss the hardware bumps that TS describes, and then say '...and one more thing.' Then he'll unveil the new iPod or whatever.

If the new product is a video iPod it would be a good way to encourage the media to share their ongoing iPod loveaffair with actual Apple computers for a change.

     
gen
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Oct 7, 2005, 12:25 AM
 
What is a substantial benefit in use of Dual Core vs. Multiprocessor in PM, not in PB ?
     
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Oct 7, 2005, 09:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by gen
What is a substantial benefit in use of Dual Core vs. Multiprocessor in PM, not in PB ?
It's cheaper and easier to build a complete machine around it. And, it allows you to easily make a quad - dual dual-core.
     
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Oct 7, 2005, 11:36 PM
 
I think the PowerMacs will stay all dual: 2.3Ghz on the low end, 2.8Ghz in the middle, and 2.5Ghz dualcore on top. Of course some of the (stupid) benchmark sites will run single threaded benchmarks and say the middle model is faster than the high end.

As for heat, Intel is pumping 130W out of a single chip and cooling it with air.
     
 
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