[philzilla]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
I just don't think vegetarians have any room to talk when they are bashing meat eaters. Which alot like to do.

"what's really going to bake your noodle..." is when you realise people aren't bashing you because you're a meat eater

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by philzilla:
"what's really going to bake your noodle..." is when you realise people aren't bashing you because you're a meat eater

really? let's not get personal now.


Chris

[misc]

Argh, chill back guys...

[Nicko]

Ahhh Meat, what is not to love about it?

[shmerek]

Originally posted by philzilla:
once again, the brain power of the canadians* astounds the entire world...




*apart from one. and you know i always hate saying that. jeez, i'll be agreeing with zim soon. is hell freezing over?

Come on now not all canadians are tards. There has to be more than one that isn't...

I am a vegetarian but prefer to keep my beliefs to myself because I am tired of having to defend my lifestyle choices to buttheaded meat eaters. I don't bug you you don't bug me sound fair?

I will admit when I first became a vegetarian when I was young I was vocal about it but I think that is a phase that many go through when they decide to switch, it passes.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
really? let's not get personal now.


Chris

How was that personal?

[OreoCookie]

I personally don't know a vegan. I think vegetarians that still eat fish are not consequent (but they *should* still drink milk, etc.).

But I do know someone that believes in macro biotic nutrition. Skinny (no fat at all, I am serious) and hell he is a zealot. Annoying. Moby is a vegan and it seems that he has learned to be a bit more tolerant (at least according to a CD booklet ).

[fireside]

Originally posted by misc:

Fireside, do you want to wear any clothing made in a sweatshop?

well considering people werent "made" to work in a sweatshop like animals were "made" to live about their lives til a hunter comes around and kills it, its a different story. now would Veggies like it better if we didnt harvest cows and just have our farmers go out in the wild and kill them like that? would that be more natural. considering they're going to die somehow, most likely for eating purposes.

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Severed Hand of Skywalker:
I really don't think bees give a ****.

OPPRESSOR OF BEES! OPPRESSOR OF BEES!

I like meat. It's tasty.

But I can also respect your opinion that it involves animal cruelty because it's true. You gotta kill 'em first. Stupid laws.

I just wish people would concentrate on feeding starving people rather than "save the chickens!"

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
I just wish people would concentrate on feeding starving people rather than "save the chickens!"

Ummm... Us veggies have an answer to that one!

[NYCFarmboy]

Veganism is nothing more than the latest religion of the godless.

People have to believe in something, maybe believing drinking soymilk will make the world a better place is harmless.

Just don't try to convert others to this religion.

It really sickens me how much Vegans try to instill their own religious food beliefs on others.

Remember the group Peta or whoever it was had some guy dressed up in a cow outfit going around school playgrounds trying to preach to children not to drink milk because it was bad for them.

But..according to the press.. the schools that were targeted had a increased demand for chocolate milk after such incidents.



Show me a vegan and I'll show you someone who lacks meaning in their life and is just looking for something to hold onto. Again, thats maybe not a bad thing.. just don't try to convert others to that religion of Veganism.

This country is based on religious freedom but that doens't give you the right to harm children by denying them a healthy lifestyle by cutting out meat/cheese etc. you're only hurting kids by doing that. I say let people make their OWN choices.

[Face Ache]

I wouldn't define a healthy lifestyle as eating meat and cheese. Are you from the Beef Council?

Maybe they just think eating dead cow is icky. I can see that. I remember when I was a small boy the thought of eating skin sickened me so I'd take the skin off KFC chicken. Have you ever tried KFC without the herbs and spices? I thought it was the grossest thing I'd ever tasted and couldn't see why my family were tucking in. Of course the skin is the tasty bit...

FWIW: I wouldn't eat cow if I had to kill it myself. I'd eat chicken and fish though.

Also FWIW: I just had smoked cheddar between two slices of homemade (still warm) wholegrain bread. Thank you plants! Thank you cows!

[Face Ache]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Ummm... Us veggies have an answer to that one!

Eat sand?

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Face Ache:
Eat sand?

Narh. The whole "field of wheat will feed more people than a field of cows" thing.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Veganism is nothing more than the latest religion of the godless.

Please spare us.

People have to believe in something, maybe believing drinking soymilk will make the world a better place is harmless.

Just don't try to convert others to this religion.

It really sickens me how much Vegans try to instill their own religious food beliefs on others.

Remember the group Peta or whoever it was had some guy dressed up in a cow outfit going around school playgrounds trying to preach to children not to drink milk because it was bad for them.

But..according to the press.. the schools that were targeted had a increased demand for chocolate milk after such incidents.



Show me a vegan and I'll show you someone who lacks meaning in their life and is just looking for something to hold onto. Again, thats maybe not a bad thing.. just don't try to convert others to that religion of Veganism.

This country is based on religious freedom but that doens't give you the right to harm children by denying them a healthy lifestyle by cutting out meat/cheese etc. you're only hurting kids by doing that. I say let people make their OWN choices.

It goes the both ways, if somebody wants to raise their children with a health vegetarian lifestyle don't go pushing your milk and meat down their throats. Let the people make their OWN choices.

[Face Ache]

READ THIS.

Well what are you waiting for?! Go on!

At a time when weight-related illnesses in children are escalating, schools are serving kids the very foods that lead to obesity, diabetes, and heart disease. That's because the National School Lunch Program, which gives schools more than $6 billion each year to offer low-cost meals to students, has conflicting missions. Enacted in 1946, the program is supposed to provide healthy meals to children, regardless of income. At the same time, however, it's designed to subsidize agribusiness, shoring up demand for beef and milk even as the public's taste for these foods declines.

[Ken Masters]

Vegetarians are the work of the DEVIL!!!

[NYCFarmboy]

Originally posted by shmerek:

Please spare us. It goes the both ways, if somebody wants to raise their children with a health vegetarian lifestyle don't go pushing your milk and meat down their throats. Let the people make their OWN choices.

You are hurting your children raising them vegetarian. It is ultra important for new born babies to drink milk, fat, and foods that most vegetarians would dispise.

Otherwise their brains will develop smaller. It is a proven scientific fact that children raised as vegetarians have smaller brains than children raised on a normal diet.

You are harming your children by raising them to be vegetarian.

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
You are hurting your children raising them vegetarian. It is ultra important for new born babies to drink milk, fat, and foods that most vegetarians would dispise.

You are harming your children by raising them to be vegetarian.

You do know the difference between vegetarian and vegan, right?

[Phanguye]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
Narh. The whole "field of wheat will feed more people than a field of cows" thing.

while that is true, that wouldnt solve anything... growing food is just a business, and as soon as growing a field of wheat is more profitable then having cows, then the wheat will go in...

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by Phanguye:
while that is true, that wouldnt solve anything... growing food is just a business, and as soon as growing a field of wheat is more profitable then having cows, then the wheat will go in...

Yep. And that's what's happening in the UK at the moment. Well, sort of. The whole mad cow (and foot and mouth) thing took its toll and beef/dairy farmers are going to the wall left, right and centre.

Knock on effects also happening - next door neighbour recently halved his dairy herd and is now doing odd jobs to get by.

Plenty of other farmers are selling up to townies who want to get out of the rat race (pity teh townies don't realise that the rat race actually follows them into the rural areas).

The whole food industry is having problems... There's gonna be some big changes in the next 20 years.

Interestingly, organic applications in the UK are down from 250/month four years ago to 40/month, despite public demand in the stores being at an all time high. Demand is not being met, yet hardly anyone is stepping up to supply. I guess the rise in out-of-town supermarkets has altered the local supply chains and with organic foods not lasting well this creates a distribution problem.

Food as pure business is not, imho, a good thing. We all know what happened to electricity in Cali.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Bees rule.

Hardcore Vegan: "I can't drink that, it might have honey in it. I don't eat honey. It's an
animal by-product. We steal it from them. It's not a natural human food,
it's their spit. They are slaves, so I can't support that industry. We can
get sugar from sugar cane or other sources. Besides, eating vegetables is
the lesser of three evils: eating meat and veggies is murder, and bees are
slaves, but harvesting vegetables is more acceptable because it's more
likely they don't feel pain."

Well, it's about time I had a response for that, so I've drafted something
you can feel free to use if someone frustrates you with any of those gems.

Me: You don't want to eat honey? I'm not even gonna get into the hypocrisy
of supporting depressing third world sugar plantations that claim to be
"organic and slave-free" instead of happy bees, doing what they love to do.
But I can say "Well, stop eating fruits and veggies. 'Slave' farm bees are
essential for most of the food you put on your plate. So go starve if you're
gonna be so morally absolute."

From THE BENEFIT OF BEES
http://www.new-agri.co.uk/00-5/focuson/focuson8.html:

"Forget about honey, pollen and royal jelly. Just think of a world without
beans, tomatoes, onions and carrots, not to mention the hundreds of other
vegetables, oilseeds and fruits that are dependent upon bees for
pollination. And the livestock that are dependent upon bee-pollinated forage
plants, such as clover. No human activity or ingenuity could ever replace
the work of bees and yet it is largely taken for granted. It is often not
realized just how easy it is to help or hinder their effectiveness as crop
pollinators nor how much is lost by their loss.

To United States agriculture alone, the annual value of honey bee
pollination can be counted in billions of dollars. Bees pollinate about
one-sixth of the world's flowering plant species and some 400 of its
agricultural plants. Poorly pollinated plants produce fewer, often
misshapen, fruits and lower yields of seed with inevitable consequences
upon quality, availability and price of food. One of the few farm
activities that can actually increase yields, rather than simply protect
existing yields from losses, is to manage bees to encourage good
pollination."

Bees are responsible for over 80% of the following crops:

Apples
Tomatos
Onions
Apricots
Sour Cherries
Sweet Cherries
Nectarines
Peaches
Pears
Prunes & Plums
Berries
Grape
Kiwis
Blueberries
Raspberries
Strawberries
Carrots
Cranberries
Cucumbers
Melons
Pumpkin
Squash and Zucchinis
Oilseeds
Canola/Rapeseed
Sunflower
Mustard
Soybeans
Forage legume Seeds
Alfalfa Seed
Clover Seed
Pulses & Other Crops
Fava beans
Buckwheat
And many more...

: )

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
Well, it's about time I had a response for that, so I've drafted something
you can feel free to use if someone frustrates you with any of those gems.

I must have missed some of the posts in this thread (I assume your use of the word "you" in the above paragraph is intended for all the frustrated, argumentative vegans posting to this thread?).

That's an awful lot of work you did there, just to convince some people who aren't here that they're stupid.

[scaught]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:

Otherwise their brains will develop smaller. It is a proven scientific fact that children raised as vegetarians have smaller brains than children raised on a normal diet.

ooh! a PROVEN SCIENTIFIC FACT!!!!! youve got me convinced.

got a link?

ps. yes children should drink milk. milk from their mothers breast.

[scaught]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
Veganism is nothing more than the latest religion of the godless.

People have to believe in something, maybe believing drinking soymilk will make the world a better place is harmless.

Just don't try to convert others to this religion.

It really sickens me how much Vegans try to instill their own religious food beliefs on others.

Remember the group Peta or whoever it was had some guy dressed up in a cow outfit going around school playgrounds trying to preach to children not to drink milk because it was bad for them.

But..according to the press.. the schools that were targeted had a increased demand for chocolate milk after such incidents.



Show me a vegan and I'll show you someone who lacks meaning in their life and is just looking for something to hold onto. Again, thats maybe not a bad thing.. just don't try to convert others to that religion of Veganism.

This country is based on religious freedom but that doens't give you the right to harm children by denying them a healthy lifestyle by cutting out meat/cheese etc. you're only hurting kids by doing that. I say let people make their OWN choices.

Originally posted by scaught:
Veganism is a way of living which excludes all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, the animal kingdom, and includes a reverence for life. It applies to the practice of living on the products of the plant kingdom to the exclusion of flesh, fish, fowl, eggs, honey, animal milk and its derivatives, and encourages the use of alternatives for all commodities derived wholly or in part from animals

ooh. look. a working definition of veganism which should dispell all the FUD. back on page 1. where some people apparently didnt look since theyre more concerned with trying to promote their own silly ideas about someones beliefs. its not a religion.

and as as far as "It really sickens me how much Vegans try to instill their own religious food beliefs on others.", is this really a problem for you? are you constantly harassed by vegans trying to inform you about factory farming? just where do you live? as far as im concerned, its equal opportunity advertising. the beef council gets their 2 cents in on TV all the time. deal with it.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Originally posted by Sherwin:
I must have missed some of the posts in this thread (I assume your use of the word "you" in the above paragraph is intended for all the frustrated, argumentative vegans posting to this thread?).

That's an awful lot of work you did there, just to convince some people who aren't here that they're stupid.

I was just posting to SWG, who had that experience. And my first post to this thread stated clearly that I draw a line between vegans and zealots, and I only like confronting zealots to make me feel better. For the record, I had a roomate who was a vegan, who was a total b*tch about her food towards everyone, mostly because she was a flake and couldnt care less about other people's feelings (her neglect and indolence personally cost me $4400 US) which made it ironic she would care so much about animal rights). I know that not all vegans are assholes, but if I were to follow it as a rule, so far I haven't been wrong.

[DeathToWindows]

I know plenty of vegans... who are non-militent...

[misc]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
I know that not all vegans are assholes, but if I were to follow it as a rule, so far I haven't been wrong.

I know not all meat eaters are assholes, but if I were to follow it as a rule...

All meat eaters are assholes, all vegans are assholes.. The world must be full of assholes then.. oh wait...

[Sherwin]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
I was just posting to SWG, who had that experience. And my first post to this thread stated clearly that I draw a line between vegans and zealots, and I only like confronting zealots to make me feel better. For the record, I had a roomate who was a vegan, who was a total b*tch about her food towards everyone, mostly because she was a flake and couldnt care less about other people's feelings (her neglect and indolence personally cost me $4400 US) which made it ironic she would care so much about animal rights). I know that not all vegans are assholes, but if I were to follow it as a rule, so far I haven't been wrong.

Fair enough. My bad.

I think that the problem is that militant assholes tend to be draw towards veganism as an expression of their level of militancy (and for no other reason)... Thus, it's not the veganism which is to blame - it's the asshole, who would be an asshole whether they'd gone vegan or not.

[rhansen_x]

Can vegans eat animal crackers?

[icruise]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
(her neglect and indolence personally cost me $4400 US) which made it ironic she would care so much about animal rights).

So lemme get this straight -- you are saying that because this woman cost you money (would interested in hearing that story), all vegans are assholes?

I'm getting just a little tired of people's attitudes toward vegetarians, which have little or nothing to do with reality. Personally, I know a LOT of vegetarians compared to the average person, and none of them are militant. What on earth have these people done to you? Most just want to be treated decently and not be subjected to this kind of treatment. In fact, I would imagine that most of the very vocal vegetarians have become that way as a defense mechanism, in response to the way they are treated.

[daimoni]

.

[AB^2=BCxAC]

Originally posted by Icruise:
So lemme get this straight -- you are saying that because this woman cost you money (would interested in hearing that story), all vegans are assholes?

Wrong.

How many times do I have to say it? Once more, apparently. I think vegans are not assholes, I never said they were. Especially not for being vegan. Sherwin said it best: militant/zealot people make for obnoxious vegans. All the vegans I know have been flaky, incompetant militant weirdos. Outside of this forum, the vegans I know all seem to be in serious need of therapy. I can characterize them like that because I know them well enough. I can't do that for the vegans in this forum, SO I NEVER SAID MY EXPERIENCE APPLIED TO ALL VEGANS.

As for the honey thing, I've put it to a friend of a friend who is supposedly a very agreeable vegan (but I've never met her) as to why some vegans don't eat honey. I did not use my rant in putting the question out. If I get a pleasant response, I'll be very gracious and wont attack.

[Mulattabianca]

Originally posted by misc:
Ok, here's my question:

Will I still be considered a Vegan if I don't eat meat and don't wear any leather, but still eat milk, honey, etc.?

No. You are a vegetarian with that choise. Milk, cheese etc = lacto-vegetarian, an egg-eating one is (lacto-)ovo-vegetarian; those eating plain vegetarian food are vegetarians. Vegan is one avoiding even overly cooked food (and alcohol, at least in theory). And then there is also fruitarian = a vegan eating only fruit or other stuff that eating them doesn't hurt the plants.

[icruise]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
All the vegans I know have been flaky, incompetant militant weirdos. Outside of this forum, the vegans I know all seem to be in serious need of therapy. I can characterize them like that because I know them well enough. I can't do that for the vegans in this forum, SO I NEVER SAID MY EXPERIENCE APPLIED TO ALL VEGANS.

Ok, but it certainly sounded like you were saying that the ones you knew were representative of vegans as a whole. If someone said "all the Jews I know are real assholes" you could understand how someone might interpret that to be a statement about Jews in general, yes?

[Mulattabianca]

I'm amazed this is on page 2 without being closed or flamed.

I was years vegan. Mostly raw food, no milk or dairy products, no eggs, no fish&meat&co. And I was healthy and enjoyed it. The negative side got bigger during the years: most people are NOT vegans. If you eat out or just with your friends, you can't eat anything. sometimes you can order the salad, but if the only chicken-less salad is salad, tomatoes and cucumbers, you get sick of its taste. Unless most of your friends are vegans, you social life suffers. And when you go out and have to eat vegetarian stuff that has e.g. cheese on it (to not be unpolite or because you are reallty hungry) you normallyt end up being sick for a few days because you are not used to digest that.

Another motive, apart from the social or isolative point of view, was also weight. You can be a vegan and be of normal weight, or even chubby, but I wasn't. I cooked most of my stuff, and used plenty of seeds, beans etc. I don't like eating much, and staying in 80 lb (for 5'9") didn't seem to able to get the maximum health effect of it. I opted for back to vegetarian with some milk products etc to have more social life.

Now I'm again something funny that can't find anything to eat in restaurants etc. Gluten makes my stomach upset so I'm opting for no-gluten and no-wheat. Vegetarian stuff that is not deep-fried (too fatty food blocks my stomach), that has no wheat and so on. I quit eating the french fries of macdonalds etc after discovering they use beef extract as taste on them.

For the social life it sure helps if your friends or at least partner is of more or less the same eating habits you are. I don't mean mine would all have to be pricky eaters like me, avoiding all meat, wheat & co, but at least if both are at least mostly vegetarian, it is easier. I was for over 12 years also not eating any fish, but the body needs change. Person by person. I need more protein now than I needed before, maybe all of my body's reserves have been simply used. Thus loads of beans - and sometimes on special occasions, some seafood or fish. I still don't cook it myself, and I don't mix that with any other food if I happen to eat it, but it feels good to have sometimes more proteine.

I don't want to make a big noise of what I eat or don't in a big company. (oh forgot - really allergic to onions. that's hard in US). I rather just have something and be in the company than make a big noise (to avoid making it, I often stick to salad or just drinks). I have no problem with eating in a company where most others eat meat, it's their choise and the party table is sure a wrong place to argue about eating morals, habits etc.

[Mulattabianca]

Originally posted by AB^2=BCxAC:
I think vegans are not assholes, I never said they were. Especially not for being vegan. Sherwin said it best: militant/zealot people make for obnoxious vegans. All the vegans I know have been flaky, incompetant militant weirdos. Outside of this forum, the vegans I know all seem to be in serious need of therapy. I can characterize them like that because I know them well enough. I can't do that for the vegans in this forum, SO I NEVER SAID MY EXPERIENCE APPLIED TO ALL VEGANS.

As for the honey thing, I've put it to a friend of a friend who is supposedly a very agreeable vegan (but I've never met her) as to why some vegans don't eat honey. I did not use my rant in putting the question out. If I get a pleasant response, I'll be very gracious and wont attack.

Well. I've been vegan for years and even if i'm not 'only a vegetarian', I'm still not a militant. My "militant" opinions are on the level "fighting for peace is like f*cking for virginity." Hitler may have been a vegetarian, but it does not apply that all vegans are militants.

My whole family is vegan. My grandmother started when she was just an early teen, raised my mother a vegan, my mother met my father (another vegan) and produced my brother and me (both vegans) who both have significant others that are vegans. We didn't grow up with small brains, from what I can tell, either.

Anything can be proven in a medical study. That's why I don't listen to them. What I do know is that my family is disease free - my grandmother, in her 80's is still even swimming laps and jogging. There is no incidence of cancers or other potentially fatal disease in any of us. In fact, we never really even get sick with common colds/flus. We also don't use typical household chemicals or conventional medicines (unless it's dire - haven't had to yet, though) and lead a very quiet existence.

Would we of remained this way if we consumed "the American Diet and Lifestyle"? Doubt it. There isn't anything "healthy" about consuming animals and poisons to our family.

My families medical history aside, it is also unfathomable for us to murder and abuse our friends. Whereas, most people take the position that they are the highest form of intelligent life on this planet and therefore, top of their food chain, we do not. Killing an animal to us equates to your killing another person - but then eating them.

[shmerek]

Originally posted by NYCFarmboy:
You are hurting your children raising them vegetarian. It is ultra important for new born babies to drink milk, fat, and foods that most vegetarians would dispise.

Otherwise their brains will develop smaller. It is a proven scientific fact that children raised as vegetarians have smaller brains than children raised on a normal diet.

You are harming your children by raising them to be vegetarian.

Prove it.

People with attitudes like yours irk me to no end. You preach all your bull**** about not liking it when vegetarians/vegans get down on you for eating meat but you do the same thing to them in reverse. HYPOCRITE

You have no scientific proof to back up your assertions yet you feel the need to tell others how to run their lives.

HYPOCRITE

[kmkkid]

You know, this board is really starting to get annoying with all the hostility in EVERY thread.

Can people not state a point without being bashed/flamed/ridiculed?

An even better question is: when are the mods going to start dealing with the ignorant trouble makers? It's obvious who they are.


Chris

[shmerek]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
It's obvious who they are.


Chris

Do tell?

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by shmerek:
Do tell?

I wasnt just refering to this thread. ALL threads seem to degenerate into flame wars nowadays. And it's always the same people starting the trouble. If you can't figure out who they are then I can't help you.


Chris

[OpenStep]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
I wasnt just refering to this thread. ALL threads seem to degenerate into flame wars nowadays. And it's always the same people starting the trouble. If you can't figure out who they are then I can't help you.


Chris

Welcome to MacNN

[Spliff]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
A plant is a living thing. Sure animals can express pain and suffering (which makes it grusome), but that doesnt mean a plant doesnt 'feel' anything in some way when it's killed.

I eat meat and vegetables, so it's not like I care all that much anyways I have to survive somehow, if it's at the expense of another living creature... well... that's life.


Chris

Let's say you have a daughter and she's killed and eaten by a serial killer. I guess you won't be upset because it's all part of the circle of life.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Spliff:
Let's say you have a daughter and she's killed and eaten by a serial killer. I guess you won't be upset because it's all part of the circle of life.

Is that the way the food chain works? I wasnt aware that humans normally eat other humans. Of course I'd be upset, because that isnt a normal occurance. Humans eating cows, chickens, and fish, - that is the life cycle. I have nothing against vegetarians, as long as they arnt being judgemental of people who enjoy eating meat. Tolerance is the way of the future You live your life and I'll live mine.


Now if we were still pre-modern man i.e. apes, I guess my opinion would change on whther that killer had the right to do what he did, but then again I'd also be allowed to go kill him in revenge without fear of punishment.


Chris

[nonhuman]

Originally posted by Superchic[k]en:
To me nothing can take away the joy of cheese cake.

Agreed. I tinkered with vegetarianism once (for moral reasons). I just missed meat too much. I can't help it, I just love the flavors, smells, textures, everything that meat has to offer. Which isn't to say that I don't appreciate meatless dishes as well. Everything has it's place, I just happen to think that one of the places that animals belong is on my dinner plate.

[Spliff]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Is that the way the food chain works? I wasnt aware that humans normally eat other humans. Of course I'd be upset, because that isnt a normal occurance. Humans eating cows, chickens, and fish, - that is the life cycle. I have nothing against vegetarians, as long as they arnt being judgemental of people who enjoy eating meat. Tolerance is the way of the future You live your life and I'll live mine.


Now if we were still pre-modern man i.e. apes, I guess my opinion would change on whther that killer had the right to do what he did, but then again I'd also be allowed to go kill him in revenge without fear of punishment.

Chris

First of all, the food chain is a concept from the 1950s; it has since been discarded in favour of the food web. And who knows, that's probably been discarded in favour of something newer.

Second of all, we're all animals and so we're all part of the cycle of life. Everything living thing eventually dies. You can't exclude humans from the nature just because they're humans. We evolved on this planet just like every other plant and animal.

My point is that you can't selectively use nature to justify your eating habits while saying that you're not part of nature.

If I stuck you out on the Serengeti without clothes and weapons, you'd become a meal pretty damn quickly.

You eat meat because it's a ingrained habit and because it tastes good, not because it's a biological necessity.

There is no morality in nature. Morality is a human construct. We have legal and ethical prohibitions against killing other humans, but never forget that those are human inventions. Without them, human society couldn't function. Without them we would be in a state of nature, as Hobbes said.

The only reason you can eat animals is because society hasn't yet made it against the law. But if you look around, that's starting to change slowly.

There are animal rights organizations whose memberships are growing each year. There is 30 years of philosophy that support the claims of the animal rights movement because they are essentially extensions of the ethical principles that protect women and ethnic/racial minorities.

If you like, I can give you a reading list.

I agree that tolerance is a good thing. No one likes to be criticized because of what they eat. But animal rights activists believe it's ethically wrong for humans to kill and eat animals. While society in general doesn't see eating animals as a crime, many animal rights activists do. Hence their outrage and criticisms of those who do eat meat.

Meat eaters don't have to worry. It'll probably be centuries before the animal rights folk get their way. But the abolishment of slavery and equal rights for women also took centuries to achieve.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Spliff:
First of all, the food chain is a concept from the 1950s; it has since been discarded in favour of the food web. And who knows, that's probably been discarded in favour of something newer.

Second of all, we're all animals and so we're all part of the cycle of life. Everything living thing eventually dies. You can't exclude humans from the nature just because they're humans. We evolved on this planet just like every other plant and animal.

My point is that you can't selectively use nature to justify your eating habits while saying that you're not part of nature.

If I stuck you out on the Serengeti without clothes and weapons, you'd become a meal pretty damn quickly.

You eat meat because it's a ingrained habit and because it tastes good, not because it's a biological necessity.

There is no morality in nature. Morality is a human construct. We have legal and ethical prohibitions against killing other humans, but never forget that those are human inventions. Without them, human society couldn't function. Without them we would be in a state of nature, as Hobbes said.

The only reason you can eat animals is because society hasn't yet made it against the law. But if you look around, that's starting to change slowly.

There are animal rights organizations whose memberships are growing each year. There is 30 years of philosophy that support the claims of the animal rights movement because they are essentially extensions of the ethical principles that protect women and ethnic/racial minorities.

If you like, I can give you a reading list.

I agree that tolerance is a good thing. No one likes to be criticized because of what they eat. But animal rights activists believe it's ethically wrong for humans to kill and eat animals. While society in general doesn't see eating animals as a crime, many animal rights activists do. Hence their outrage and criticisms of those who do eat meat.

Meat eaters don't have to worry. It'll probably be centuries before the animal rights folk get their way. But the abolishment of slavery and equal rights for women also took centuries to achieve.

Sorry, what was your point again? I simply said that eating meat and vegetables is part of life, the human diet, the food 'web'. Then you came along with some bizarre question about a serial killer eating my daughter . I've missed the point somewhere along the line, but you got your speech in so it's all good


Chris

Chris

[Spliff]

Originally posted by kmkkid:
Sorry, what was your point again? I simply said that eating meat and vegetables is part of life, the human diet, the food 'web'. Then you came along with some bizarre question about a serial killer eating my daughter . I've missed the point somewhere along the line, but you got your speech in so it's all good


Chris

LOL.

My point is that, based on your logic, murder and rape can be considered part of nature, and therefore, allowable (once again, according to your logic). But rape and murder are illegal and unethical in human society, even though many animal species "rape" and "murder."

So you can't justify meat-eating just because it happens in nature. In the same way, you can't justify murder or rape because it occurs in nature.

[kmkkid]

Originally posted by Spliff:
LOL.

My point is that, based on your logic, murder and rape can be considered part of nature, and therefore, allowable (once again, according to your logic). But rape and murder are illegal and unethical in human society, even though many animal species "rape" and "murder."

So you can't justify meat-eating just because it happens in nature. In the same way, you can't justify murder or rape because it occurs in nature.

My logic is that Humans are omnivores, we eat meat and vegetables, we evolved to specifically eat them. i.e. our teeth are sharp, and our stomach's are designed to digest both.

So, are you a vegan Spliff?


Chris