[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

And you know this to be the case because…?

Because you have to use a PC to use a tablet.

I gather that Phileas' iPad purchases were made INSTEAD of laptops. How does that not "replace" them?

He used laptops a clappers before? Hm I suppose you could clap them.

Also, making a supporting point ("ebooks are irrelevant") and then telling somebody it was irrelevant when he knocks it down amounts to admitting a red herring.

Nobody knocked anything I wrote about e-books down. At least not in this dimension.

Don't bother setting up another pair of phantom goalposts, please.

Don't bother putting words in my mouth, sunshine.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Have a cookie for being utterly, unalterably, unfixably wrong: "[Gartner] now expects PC sales this year to climb by just 10.5 percent in contrast to 2010, not the 15.9 percent the firm had originally anticipated." In other words, they're expecting iPad sales to chop more than 33% off of PC sales growth this year.

So growth of laptops (since no tablet replaces a desktop) is cut by 33% according to predictions. Have a badge for being obtuse! (a common one, but still cherished by many!!) That means that for every 1000 people who bought PCs last year (laptops most likely), this year instead of 1159 people buying PCs only 1105 will. Oh gosh. But it makes sense, the tablets eat a little off laptop sales (though people still need a desktop or a laptop to use the tablet) It's just not that dramatic.

But it doesn't make the angsty OMG UR SO WR0NG LULZ statement any less off target. It's pretty much exactly as I see it, some portables (second computers) will not be sold in leu of a tablet.

The iPad already knocked 2% to 3% off PC sales in 4Q10.

Correlation and causation are two *very* different things. Only a complete layman would confuse the two. For instance while PC manufacturers are losing sales (to the tablets in general and the iPad in particular, as you and Spheric would be more than happy to proclaim) sales of Macs is going UP. So, there's something very wrong with the statement that iPads are the cause for overall PC sales slump, because then (evidently) Macs would be dropping just as much.

Which they aren't.

On the bright side, if you want to pick up a PC laptop for cheap, this is the year to do it.

And strangely, if you want to pick up a Mac laptop for cheap, this isn't the year to do it. Which points to some other effect depressing PC sales than tablets. Probably a combination of many things, but it certainly is not because of iPads. Most likely, it's the current economy. But like the iPad, other Apple products like the Mac are growing.

Probably because the people who buy Apple products are upper middle class people who are more motivated by perception, look and feel and not that affected by the economic slump - while less rich people (the at least 90% of any given western country) are cutting back on Peezoids and certainly aren't spending on tablets.

Prediction time: 2011 will be a growth year for Apple tablets, but a beginning of stagnation for the iPhone. The iPhone 5 will not be nearly as interesting as it's younger siblings. 2013 will see stagnation begin for iPads. It takes that long for the upperclass market to saturate. After that, less interest.

And I won't have to hear more about post-PC devices or paradigm shifts or even trucks. Good times ahead.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

So growth of laptops (since no tablet replaces a desktop) is cut by 33% according to predictions. Have a badge for being obtuse! (a common one, but still cherished by many!!) That means that for every 1000 people who bought PCs last year (laptops most likely), this year instead of 1159 people buying PCs only 1105 will. Oh gosh. But it makes sense, the tablets eat a little off laptop sales (though people still need a desktop or a laptop to use the tablet) It's just not that dramatic.

You said: Tablets will not replace PCs, nor are they a "game changer". Simply another device in the already existing flora of computers. Coexisting with PCs.

And: Tablets will not replace PCs, nor are they a "game changer". Simply another device in the already existing flora of computers. Coexisting with PCs.

Unfortunately, data shows tablets are already replacing laptops and PCs, and Gartner's forecast shows that accelerating. So, either you didn't mean what you said before, or you don't mean what you say now.

[CollinG3G4]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Nothing short of a DP G5 can even handle Flash.

That's poor coding on Adobe's part. I've got a cheap netbook that handles full screen Flash on an external display.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

You said: Tablets will not replace PCs, nor are they a "game changer". Simply another device in the already existing flora of computers. Coexisting with PCs.

Replacing PCs is not the same as replacing the second computer. Replacing PCs is replacing PCs. All of them (or to such an extent that PCs aren't really relevant anymore, hence the "post-PC" mantra)

Thus in reality, tablets are no more game changers or replacements for PCs than netbooks are.

And: Tablets will not replace PCs, nor are they a "game changer". Simply another device in the already existing flora of computers. Coexisting with PCs.

Quite so. As the data you so kindly provided demonstrates (which is just a prediction anyway, but let's take it as a fact) there is some cannibalization by tablets of laptops. That's coexisting. Not replacing. Some tablet users will move back to a laptop when their computing performance need increase. That's what happens at the fringe. I myself have moved many times between a desktop and a laptop. Depending on what I need at the time.

Unfortunately, data shows tablets are already replacing laptops and PCs, and Gartner's forecast shows that accelerating. So, either you didn't mean what you said before, or you don't mean what you say now.

Netbooks already "replaced" laptops then, according your definition of "replacing". ... so if just one single instance of a tablet sale instead of a laptop sale occurs, then it's actually *replacing* PCs according to you. While in reality, it's eating up the fringes of laptop sales, where anemic and limited ultraportable devices meet laptops.

They're not replacing them, they're being added. Besides, you need a PC to run that tablet. Especially the iPad. So unfortunately or fortunately (I don't see how fortune enters into this discussion, but hey whatever you prefer) tablets are finding their niche, and some laptop sales will suffer for it. But they won't be replaced.

And you're completely ignoring the fact that Mac laptop sales are growing much faster than Wintel laptops are... so they are somehow immune to the iPad and other tablets? Or the other obvious alternative - that tablets are growing into their niche, Macs are becoming more popular in an otherwise stagnant economy.

MacBook sales can't be growing leaps and bounds and the iPad replacing them at the same time. Simple, no? And anyway, evidently if tablets were actually *replacing* laptops, then the very same number of laptop sales would be lost as tablet sales gained. While in reality far less laptop sales are lost than tablet sales gained. Thus the tablets are being *added*.

On a tangent: is the glee and the constant mantra of "game changing" that you claim tablets are introducing because you really think this is happening (i.e. you believe Steve's sales pitch) or that it makes you happy because it can be seen as hurting Microsoft in the long run and Apple is finally "on top"? In other words, is this just one big schadenfreude?

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by CollinG3G4 

That's poor coding on Adobe's part. I've got a cheap netbook that handles full screen Flash on an external display.

You're right. Completely.

And as fate would have it, the new Flash 10.2 probably could run have on G4s, it's been optimized a lot for the Mac.. but this new (and relatively usable) version of Flash dropped PPC support. So it never happened.

For Don Pickett: a singlecore G5 iMac could run Flash without major issues. Just for the record.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

For Don Pickett: a singlecore G5 iMac could run Flash without major issues. Just for the record.

Not really. HD Flash on the G5 iMac is a big problem.

[Don Pickett]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Replacing PCs is not the same as replacing the second computer.

Fine, but that's not what you said. You said Tablets will not replace PCs. . . Now you've admitted that tablets are replacing some PCs, but only "second computers".

Maybe you will begin to understand why many people take issue with what you say, as it changes to suit your argument, even if that means contradicting something you said two posts ago.

Single core iMacs had trouble with Flash. I know this because I had a single 1.8 GHz G5, and it struggled with Flash.

[Big Mac]

A single processor G5 could run low resolution flash without a problem. HD flash was problematic, as the epic HD Flash thread in the Power Mac forum chronicled.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Have a cookie for being utterly, unalterably, unfixably wrong: "[Gartner] now expects PC sales this year to climb by just 10.5 percent in contrast to 2010, not the 15.9 percent the firm had originally anticipated." In other words, they're expecting iPad sales to chop more than 33% off of PC sales growth this year.

The iPad already knocked 2% to 3% off PC sales in 4Q10.

Both of those are conservative estimates. Other's put the iPad's damage to laptop sales at 25%.

On the bright side, if you want to pick up a PC laptop for cheap, this is the year to do it.

Don:

This is bang on. Even ASUS' CEO stated in the media that Apple's iOS devices were like a virus, eating away at the sales of netbooks.

[freudling]

voodoo:

You know what's funny? Your posts are so long, yet you don't really say much.

And don't bother responding with another long-winded post, I won't read it.

Tablets eating netbooks abroad, not just in US

Android Tablets and Apple iPad Eating into the Computer Market

Soaring Tablets Sales Will Cannibalize PCs, Says Analyst | John Paczkowski | Digital Daily | AllThingsD

HP: Tablets are eating into notebook sales

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/report...-india_1493364

Apple to dominate PC market in 2011, estimates show - Computerworld Blogs

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Eug 

Not really. HD Flash on the G5 iMac is a big problem.

Yeah, I wasn't talking about HD Flash. Just 'normal' Flash useage. HD Flash on Macs wasn't even good on the first intel machines, but it got better when Adobe released 10.2.

But what's the point in contradicting me when I write "Flash runs ok on a G5, without major issues" (when in general it does and at the time of the G5 I didn't consider HD a major issue and to be honest I still don't since I get my HD from other sources) and then say "Not really, if it is HD Flash". Obviously you're right, but at the same time, that's like willfully misunderstanding my post. Or you feel HD Flash *is* a major issue.

But well, you're a stickler for details Eug

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Don Pickett 

Fine, but that's not what you said. You said Tablets will not replace PCs. . . Now you've admitted that tablets are replacing some PCs, but only "second computers".

It takes a special sort of person to not realize that an iPad (for instance) is always a *second* computer. That's the way it was designed to be used. Thus the term (title of this thread) Post-PC device is marketing speech. Nothing else.

I still say tablets will not replace PCs. That means in essence all of them. Whether some people who are deciding between tablet or PC choose either one is utterly irrelevant to my statement. Tablets will not replace PCs.

I'm going to try to make my statement perhaps more clear to you. Segways will replace not replace bicycles. OK? Whether some persons sell their bike to buy a Segway, has *nothing* to do with what is happening. Segways (tablets) are not replacing bikes (PCs). Do you appreciate the difference?

Maybe you will begin to understand why many people take issue with what you say, as it changes to suit your argument, even if that means contradicting something you said two posts ago.

If anyone takes issue with what I write than that person is the most pathetic and sad individual that I have ever known to exist. I'm writing my personal opinions and views on some backwater forum themed on Macs. If anyone is angry or feels personally injured, insulted or just sad when I poke holes in the leaky and quite stupid theory promoted by Steve Jobs that tablets will replace all PCs.

And if you took the time to read my posts, well you'd see that I don't change or contradict myself. Like in the above, there is no contradiction. In fact I go out of my way to explain my definition, so you can understand it. Instead you have, so far, just ignored it and continued spouting nonsense.

Single core iMacs had trouble with Flash. I know this because I had a single 1.8 GHz G5, and it struggled with Flash.

Wow. No they didn't. So you had a G5. Yeah well so did I and so did Big Mac. No major problems with Flash.

As Big Mac writes:

A single processor G5 could run low resolution flash without a problem. HD flash was problematic, as the epic HD Flash thread in the Power Mac forum chronicled.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by freudling 

Don:

This is bang on. Even ASUS' CEO stated in the media that Apple's iOS devices were like a virus, eating away at the sales of netbooks.

Or ASUS CEO is just covering his ass and blaming the competition for his own incompetence? Why aren't the tablets "eating away, like a virus" the MacBook Air?

Or the MacBook Pro? Or the MacBook?

Because, people aren't replacing laptops with tablets in any significant number. As Macintosh sales prove. There's something else going on.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by freudling 

voodoo:

You know what's funny? Your posts are so long, yet you don't really say much.

You know what's funny, long or short your posts don't say anything. Ooooo.

And don't bother responding with another long-winded post, I won't read it.

Here's your ball, now go home.

[Eug]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Or ASUS CEO is just covering his ass and blaming the competition for his own incompetence? Why aren't the tablets "eating away, like a virus" the MacBook Air?

Or the MacBook Pro? Or the MacBook?

Because, people aren't replacing laptops with tablets in any significant number. As Macintosh sales prove. There's something else going on.

The iPad has been targeted at the low end market. I like the MacBook Air, but it's well over $1000. The iPad competes with reduced-functionality netbooks, machines that have a cut-down OS and size and keyboard limitations. It's not a surprise at all that the iPad is eating into the netbook market. The question we all had back in 2010 was not "if", but "how much".

BTW, I personally got something in between, an 11.6" machine that is nowhere near as nice (or expensive) as the 11.6" Air, but not as crippled as a 10" Win 7 Starter netbook. Unfortunately, it's still 3 lbs.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

I still say tablets will not replace PCs. That means in essence all of them. Whether some people who are deciding between tablet or PC choose either one is utterly irrelevant to my statement. Tablets will not replace PCs.

Nobody said "all of them." What people have said is that tablets are replacing PCs as main computing devices for a lot of people. i.e. a significant segment of the market. But nobody has said PCs are going away completely, and we'll only be left with tablets.

Originally Posted by Big Mac 

Do you guys who envision tablets replacing laptops and desktops for the vast majority of people, do you envision them becoming unrestricted, general purpose devices instead of the locked down, limited computing devices they currently are?

The general public doesn't really care about them being "locked down." And there are already tablets on the market that aren't locked down for the few that need them - they're just heavier and more expensive. One even runs MacOS X.

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Or ASUS CEO is just covering his ass and blaming the competition for his own incompetence? Why aren't the tablets "eating away, like a virus" the MacBook Air?

Or the MacBook Pro? Or the MacBook?

Do you honestly think not one person was thinking "MacBook or iPad" and chose the iPad?

[mattyb]

While I do think that Tablets will eventually replace the PC for the average user, I'd just like to say that Gartner have a less than stellar history in fortune telling. But I'd still accept a job with them as an analyst.

[Spheric Harlot]

It's actually "MacBook Air or iPad", and from what I can tell, it's a question that a lot of people ask themselves.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Nobody said "all of them." What people have said is that tablets are replacing PCs as main computing devices for a lot of people. i.e. a significant segment of the market. But nobody has said PCs are going away completely, and we'll only be left with tablets.

"all of them" or as good as all, is what is implied in Steve Jobs' "post-PC" device phrase (except "the trucks") and it's really just his words this thread is about.

What is understood with the phrase "post-PC device" is that the post-PC devices are going to be the new 90%+ computing devices. While it does not mean literally all of them, it is implied that "normal PCs" will be relegated to a Mac-like minority. It's there, but not taken that seriously by anyone. Well I don't have to describe that situation to the crowd here.

Originally Posted by hayesk 

Do you honestly think not one person was thinking "MacBook or iPad" and chose the iPad?

Do you honestly think not one person was thinking "iPad" and chose one of the MacBooks (vanilla/pro/air)? But that wasn't my point there (though it addresses another point I was making about fringe sales), the point was that the tablets aren't to blame for the PC sales downturn, because Macs are PCs too and they're selling more and more each year - way faster then the rest of the PC industry.

That goes right against The Prophecy of Steve.

[Spheric Harlot]

…aaand another set of goalposts!

It's Quantum Football! You think he's playing, but in reality, he's just warping the field around him!

Not much of real spectator sport, though.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

…aaand another set of goalposts!

It's Quantum Football! You think he's playing, but in reality, he's just warping the field around him!

Not much of real spectator sport, though.

Your bleating about things that aren't happening isn't making you look good there, buddy. Perhaps you should just read my posts and comprehend before you post. It's the basic rule of the internets.

As always, if it bothers you to read my posts, take your ball and go home. There are no goalposts to be moved, this isn't a game, there won't be any winners. Don't you have any new statistics to misinterpret in your "favor" anyway? That seems to be your schtick.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

…aaand another set of goalposts!

It's Quantum Football! You think he's playing, but in reality, he's just warping the field around him!

Not much of real spectator sport, though.

You know we're right, it will happen. There's no reason arguing with him about it. He's being as obnoxious as the Android crowd crying and screaming about TV commercials.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

You know we're right, it will happen. There's no reason arguing with him about it. He's being as obnoxious as the Android crowd crying and screaming about TV commercials.

Logically, if I'm not in complete agreement, I'm on the complete opposite side.

Truth will set you free, but first it will make you angry.

[MacinTommy]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Truth will set you free, but first it will make you angry.

Great quote!
I've been too busy to read the entire thread but what is the big argument (in a nutshell) that is going on right now?

[Spheric Harlot]

voodoo thinks iPads are a fad.

He is wrong, and it is making him angry.

[MacinTommy]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

voodoo thinks iPads are a fad.

He is wrong, and it is making him angry.

Definitely not a fad. It will keep evolving and getting better (just like most other electronic devices) and will eventually be able to cut the umbilical cord from the PC/Mac.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by MacinTommy 

Definitely not a fad. It will keep evolving and getting better (just like most other electronic devices) and will eventually be able to cut the umbilical cord from the PC/Mac.

That's what we were trying to tell him, but he's still pissed over it.

[turtle777]

He's just a voodoo troll.

Stick a fork in it and be done.

-t

[freudling]

Originally Posted by turtle777 

He's just a voodoo troll.

Stick a fork in it and be done.

-t

Amen my man.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

voodoo thinks iPads are a fad.

He is wrong, and it is making him angry.

Not at all Dr. Phil, I do think that the "post-PC" device is a Steve Jobs sales pitch and has little or no connection with reality.

Now go to the mirror and say "I was getting upset on the internet with a person I don't know because he doesn't agree with Steve Jobs."

Then hang your head in shame.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

That's what we were trying to tell him, but he's still pissed over it.

Although I adressed this to Spheric before (and he simply didn't read it or whatever it is he does) this one is for you.

From an earlier post of mine in this thread:

Jeez Spheric. It's like you think I'm talking these tablets down (which you take personally, alas), when I'm simply pointing out how ridiculous the "post-PC" hype/sales pitch is. Tablets will not replace PCs, nor are they a "game changer". Simply another device in the already existing flora of computers. Coexisting with PCs.

It's as if you've already decided what I think on my behalf. Thanks, but no thanks. How about you leave that to me, ok? In fact I insist.

[Don Pickett]

The real question is how long to laptops and low-end desktops have? I'd give them seven or eight years, at the outside, before they're reduced to minority status.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

Because you have to use a PC to use a tablet.

No you don't...

You have to use a PC to update the OS of an iPad.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by nonhuman 

No you don't...

You have to use a PC to update the OS of an iPad.

True. So many BS arguments on this. You do not need a desktop or laptop to use a tablet. Period. Go ahead and try to give the good old, "but, but, but". It won't work. Here's my scenario:

1. Address book, calendar, bookmarks, and Mail synched over the air to iPad. All devices kept in sync over the air. No hard connection required.
2. I buy music, TV shows and movies, along with Apps, on the device itself. No hard connection required.

The one other thing I don't need with my tablet is a desk.

[Spheric Harlot]

There's two issues:

One is updates - you need a PC.

This is easily remedied by walking into a store and either getting a free update or paying a tenner or so to have someone do it for you (though I'm hoping Apple has something in development for sooner rather than later).



Two is backups - you currently need a PC.

As mentioned earlier elsewhere, I'm hoping for a Time Capsule Express solution here - something Joe Sixpack can spend $150 on and not worry about.

[nonhuman]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

There's two issues:

One is updates - you need a PC.

This is easily remedied by walking into a store and either getting a free update or paying a tenner or so to have someone do it for you (though I'm hoping Apple has something in development for sooner rather than later).



Two is backups - you currently need a PC.

As mentioned earlier elsewhere, I'm hoping for a Time Capsule Express solution here - something Joe Sixpack can spend $150 on and not worry about.

For an iPad. This is a software issue and not a general limitation of tablets.

[Spheric Harlot]

True.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

There's two issues:

One is updates - you need a PC.

This is easily remedied by walking into a store and either getting a free update or paying a tenner or so to have someone do it for you (though I'm hoping Apple has something in development for sooner rather than later).



Two is backups - you currently need a PC.

As mentioned earlier elsewhere, I'm hoping for a Time Capsule Express solution here - something Joe Sixpack can spend $150 on and not worry about.

Right on both accounts Spheric, and I would say it's very far from the "Apple experience" to have to walk into a store to update the iPod or simply not backing it up. In other words, the way it was designed it needs a PC. It works without one, of course. It's designed to be on the road. As of yet, however, it is not a good experience (and frankly not safe at all) so Apple clearly recommends people to use it with a PC. As do I, so much so that I would say an iPad *needs* a PC.

I'm sure you do too. Unless you think it's smart to walk around with an iPod that has no backup. I don't. Which once *again* underscores that the phrase "post-PC device" is little more than sales rhetoric.

[Spheric Harlot]

So you're saying that the tablets are NOT the future face of all general computing because Apple have not implemented something that they solved for previous generations of general computing devices over ten years ago?

Because they're obviously not able to build working and practical solutions to these problems?

Holding others as ignorant or incompetent as happens to befit your "point" doesn't really work terribly well, voodoo.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by Spheric Harlot 

So you're saying that the tablets are NOT the future face of all general computing because Apple have not implemented something that they solved for previous generations of general computing devices over ten years ago?

No, not at all. Evidently I'm saying that at the moment and for the foreseeable future, every iPad user needs a PC - thus making it highly improbable that they *replace* their PC with an iPad and thus making the "post-PC device" mantra quite obviously the empty marketing speak it is.

And I've already addressed why tablets are not the "future face of general computing". But the dependence on PCs isn't really one of them. You can simply read up on the reasons in my previous posts in this thread.

Because they're obviously not able to build working and practical solutions to these problems?

Apple probably is, and in "the future" we can talk about actual cases where people have the actual option of replacing their laptops with iPads. But maybe not. Who knows, Apple isn't saying.

Holding others as ignorant or incompetent as happens to befit your "point" doesn't really work terribly well, voodoo.

Misinterpreting and playing obtuse to benefit your "point" doesn't work terribly well Spheric. I can always correct you, you know. (which is simple enough, seeing how egregious your misrepresentations of what you "think" my opinions are)

[freudling]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

No, not at all. Evidently I'm saying that at the moment and for the foreseeable future, every iPad user needs a PC - thus making it highly improbable that they *replace* their PC with an iPad and thus making the "post-PC device" mantra quite obviously the empty marketing speak it is.

And I've already addressed why tablets are not the "future face of general computing". But the dependence on PCs isn't really one of them. You can simply read up on the reasons in my previous posts in this thread.



Apple probably is, and in "the future" we can talk about actual cases where people have the actual option of replacing their laptops with iPads. But maybe not. Who knows, Apple isn't saying.



Misinterpreting and playing obtuse to benefit your "point" doesn't work terribly well Spheric. I can always correct you, you know. (which is simple enough, seeing how egregious your misrepresentations of what you "think" my opinions are)

I don't need one, and I'm an iPad user. I haven't connected at all.

I use my iPad everyday. Imagine that.

[Shaddim]

Originally Posted by voodoo 

It's as if you've already decided what I think on my behalf. Thanks, but no thanks. How about you leave that to me, ok? In fact I insist.

Calm down man, it's okay. You're still wrong about everything in this thread, but I apologize for upsetting you.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by freudling 

I don't need one, and I'm an iPad user. I haven't connected at all.

I use my iPad everyday. Imagine that.

From an earlier post (i.e. reading posts from the person you are replying to helps a lot!)

"it's very far from the "Apple experience" to have to walk into a store to update the iPod or simply not backing it up. In other words, the way it was designed it needs a PC. It works without one, of course. It's designed to be on the road. As of yet, however, it is not a good experience (and frankly not safe at all) so Apple clearly recommends people to use it with a PC. As do I, so much so that I would say an iPad *needs* a PC.

Unless you think it's smart to walk around with an iPod that has no backup. I don't. Which once *again* underscores that the phrase "post-PC device" is little more than sales rhetoric."

Yeah I can imagine that.

(wouldn't recommend it, though. not even to you)

Originally Posted by Shaddim 

Calm down man, it's okay. You're still wrong about everything in this thread, but I apologize for upsetting you.

No need to apologize for something you didn't do. I feel I have adequately presented my point of view in this thread so far and am confident I am far from wrong, in fact when the counter-"arguments" began to concentrate on twisting my words and then moving full force into ad-hominem, instead of having any actual content, that's when one strikes at the raw nerve of the newly "converted".

Big pile of rhetorical skill points for using the 2nd grade argument "you're still wrong about everything". Oh snap.

One can't argue against a debating genius of such caliber, now can one?

Originally Posted by voodoo 

"all of them" or as good as all, is what is implied in Steve Jobs' "post-PC" device phrase (except "the trucks") and it's really just his words this thread is about.

What is understood with the phrase "post-PC device" is that the post-PC devices are going to be the new 90%+ computing devices. While it does not mean literally all of them, it is implied that "normal PCs" will be relegated to a Mac-like minority. It's there, but not taken that seriously by anyone. Well I don't have to describe that situation to the crowd here.

But what you aren't doing is making the business/personal split. Steve Jobs is equating trucks to professional use and tablets to personal use. Your 90%+ figure is arbitrary. Trucks vs. cars (professional vs. personal) is what's important here. He's really talking about the P in PC.

Think about what constitutes personal use. No need for full blown MS Office, no need for full blown Photoshop, no need for AutoCAD. Personal use is browsing the web, watching video, listening to music, facebook, playing games, maybe rudimentary drawing. The iPad can do all that. Yes the iPad has business uses, just like cars have business uses, and yes there are some niche personal uses that may require a full blown desktop OS, but that's not what this is about.

It's about the iPad taking over the consumer space, not a hard percentage figure of all computing devices. When you look at it that way, it's certainly feasible for tablets to own the personal space and thus, become the post-PC (remember the P here) device.

And as soon as there's a way to administer and back up your tablet without a computer, you'll see a lot more people buy tablets instead of computers, as opposed to in addition to computers.

[Eug]

Personally I think if a computer can't decipher Word or PDF files or even Excel files then it's pretty crippled for even just email. However, luckily iOS is pretty good for reading simple Word and Excel files and of course PDFs.

[freudling]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

But what you aren't doing is making the business/personal split. Steve Jobs is equating trucks to professional use and tablets to personal use. Your 90%+ figure is arbitrary. Trucks vs. cars (professional vs. personal) is what's important here. He's really talking about the P in PC.

Think about what constitutes personal use. No need for full blown MS Office, no need for full blown Photoshop, no need for AutoCAD. Personal use is browsing the web, watching video, listening to music, facebook, playing games, maybe rudimentary drawing. The iPad can do all that. Yes the iPad has business uses, just like cars have business uses, and yes there are some niche personal uses that may require a full blown desktop OS, but that's not what this is about.

It's about the iPad taking over the consumer space, not a hard percentage figure of all computing devices. When you look at it that way, it's certainly feasible for tablets to own the personal space and thus, become the post-PC (remember the P here) device.

And as soon as there's a way to administer and back up your tablet without a computer, you'll see a lot more people buy tablets instead of computers, as opposed to in addition to computers.

[voodoo]

Originally Posted by hayesk 

But what you aren't doing is making the business/personal split. Steve Jobs is equating trucks to professional use and tablets to personal use. Your 90%+ figure is arbitrary. Trucks vs. cars (professional vs. personal) is what's important here. He's really talking about the P in PC.

No, actually my 90%+ figure is not arbitrary, it was chosen to reflect the Mac/Windows ratio. What is understood [by me] with the phrase "post-PC device" [made by Steve Jobs] is that the post-PC devices are going to be the new 90%+ computing devices. That is, they will be the Windows and the "big" PCs relegated to Mac marketshare status - i.e. more or less irrelevance or at best a (considerable) niche.

So all relevant PCs would have to be replaced with tablets, and the rest are as you say for business or whatnot - but are largely irrelevant to the whole (as Macs have always been). Thus I understand Steve Jobs' vision. That's the rhetoric of the "post-PC device". The device that makes PCs irrelevant, like Macs are today - thus the 90%+ marketshare. Perhaps less is enough, but that's the only percentage that we *know* is enough to make a platform largely irrelevant, or at least an afterthought.

But on to the P in PC:

Think about what constitutes personal use. No need for full blown MS Office, no need for full blown Photoshop, no need for AutoCAD. Personal use is browsing the web, watching video, listening to music, facebook, playing games, maybe rudimentary drawing. The iPad can do all that. Yes the iPad has business uses, just like cars have business uses, and yes there are some niche personal uses that may require a full blown desktop OS, but that's not what this is about.

All very true, and I think it is possible to simplify all that into one word: consuming. What I contest is that consuming is what makes the P in PC. As a true capitalist, I also require the ability to create on the device, without hindrance - so I can make money too. On the same device. Perhaps some people would say that's trivial, but I disagree. One of the most important thing about computers until now, is that they are a two way street of consumers and producers. Normal PCs can both be used for creating and consuming. For this reason I feel it's more appropriate to compare e.g. the iPad to a gaming console. Not because it's a toy or for gaming, but because it's only a consumption device.

That's not just my criticism of the tablets, but what I feel is one of the inherent limitations that prevent them to ever becoming the "replacement" for PCs - and I mean a complete replacement, enough to make PCs a niche. And it's not just a design limitation, it's a limitation of the form factor, the interaction with the device and the performance of it.

In other words, I agree with your statement, but I honestly think that the ability for people to be creative as well as consumers is a killer feature.

It's about the iPad taking over the consumer space, not a hard percentage figure of all computing devices. When you look at it that way, it's certainly feasible for tablets to own the personal space and thus, become the post-PC (remember the P here) device.

The iPad and other tablets will certainly take some of the consumer space, but I think they aren't really in direct competition most of the time - as an analogy other than the tired car analogy - I read iPads and tablets are to PCs what microwave ovens are to conventional ovens. Neat article and positive towards iPads, don't worry

They do more or less the same thing and are comparable, some people are more than pleased to use a microwave, but most people will have both. In the end they have both their uses, but don't really overlap - even though they basically do the same thing.

And as soon as there's a way to administer and back up your tablet without a computer, you'll see a lot more people buy tablets instead of computers, as opposed to in addition to computers.

No doubt.