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Biden's impeachment inquiry
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OreoCookie
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Sep 15, 2023, 02:04 AM
 
I thought we should discuss that the GOP has announced it'd launch impeachment inquiries against Biden. Ignoring that there doesn't seem much concrete evidence for President Biden's involvement (publications like National Review like to write “Biden family”, seemingly in an effort to erase/disguise distinctions between Hunter and Joe Biden), even from a political vantage point it seems like a bad idea:
  • McCarthy didn't even have the votes in the House and he went against his own promises of having a vote in the full House.
  • A lot of Democrats are wary of Biden due to his age. My feeling is that a substantial share of Republicans and Democrats don't want another Biden vs. Trump race. But I can see that these inquiries will likely close ranks on the Democratic side.
  • It is an evident tit-for-tat: poor President Trump got impeached twice, “because” Democrats didn't like him. So we will do it to Joe as payback. If Trump is treated “unfairly”, then Biden should receive the same treatment. Maybe this will work in the short term, but it clouds the GOP's mind for mid- and long-term consequences (see e. g. the two points above, what's more important to Republicans, get a little satisfaction from payback or win elections?).
  • Another consequence of the previous point is that the impeachment inquiries are to a good degree about Trump, and Trump's impeachments will be part of the discussion. Not great if you want to — and need to — move away from Trump to win elections. (If the GOP nominated Nicky Haley, she'd have very good chances to win the election in my opinion.)

What thinketh you?
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Spheric Harlot
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Sep 15, 2023, 06:32 AM
 
1. MAGA Republicans throwing tons of bullshit, knowing that eventually, enough may stick and confuse/disgust potential Biden voters to make a difference (it worked with Hillary).

2. Tr*mp voters, at this point, are not going to be put off voting for Tr*mp, no matter what comes up in discussion. The guy instigated A FUCKING FASCIST COUP attempt, and they still see him as a legitimate option. Nothing — nothing! — will reach them.

3. Continually sowing the narrative that Biden is not a legitimate President sets the stage for not accepting the outcome of the election, should Biden win (which, bizarrely, is not guaranteed). So if Tr*mp gets disqualified for insurrection, if he loses the election again, if he dies of a heart attack before election day, whatever: MAGA fascists will have cause for war.

4. When the impeachment fails, and it will, that’s just proof of Deep State Corruption.

5. They could nominate Nikki Haley and win, but the MAGA fringe’s goal is not to win the election. It is to make election outcomes irrelevant.

It is thus completely irrelevant that these proceedings violate Republicans’ own regulations on House approval, have no chance of succeeding, and are complete bullshit. They are achieving their purpose.
     
Thorzdad
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Sep 15, 2023, 06:57 AM
 
Even Republicans are saying there’s no evidence of wrongdoing. Remember, there’s already been a House committee “investigating” Biden, and they’ve dug up nothing against him. The go-ahead for a formal impeachment inquiry, is McCarthy giving the loons like MTG what they demand so that he can remain speaker. There are also reports that Trump himself has been quietly discussing impeachment with members of congress.

I disagree that “a lot” of democrats are concerned about Biden’s age. I think there’s “a lot” of media noise about his age, but much of that is being driven by partisan sources. Trump’s not much younger, and is far less in control of his faculties (and is certainly less physically fit) but there’s not a whisper about it. I think it’s easier for americans to clutch pearls about someone’s age than it is to openly address someone’s mental health.

Yes, this is entirely being driven by a tit-for-tat need to avenge Trump’s impeachments. There are indications that Trump himself has been in discussions with congresscritters about impeaching Biden. It’s also a way to, perhaps, remove Trump’s impeachments from the discussion. If the house actually impeaches Biden, then his campaign won’t be able to use the impeachments against Trump without looking hypocritical (which wouldn’t bother a republican candidate, but democrats still largely try to play like there are rules.)

This will be used as a campaign weapon, to both hurt Biden and to deflect attention from anything negative about Trump that might come up. The impeachment inquiry will be the loudest bullhorn of disinformation and outright falsehoods throughout the campaign. The right’s time-honored tactic of throwing as much shit at the wall as possible will be in full effect. It won’t matter if it’s all made-up nonsense. It’s the right’s way of using and abusing the news cycle...loudly say whatever you want, no matter how crazy. In the time it takes to be discredited, loudly move on to something else.

And the world’s media will have to report it all, no matter how false, because it’s an impeachment inquiry on the sitting president of the united states of america.
     
Spheric Harlot
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Sep 15, 2023, 07:41 AM
 
Another point:

The simpletons will rah-rah this as tit-for-tat, of course, but the tactical point here is to create a false equivalency — as is the staple lie of the "…on both sides" right-wing.

The idea is that Tr*mp's impeachments will no longer matter, because: Biden. Never mind that that Tr*mp WAS impeached — TWICE — and the accusations against Biden are fabricated bullshit that have no substance and no hope of succeeding.

The "world's media" is reporting this as what it is, don't worry.
     
subego
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Sep 15, 2023, 02:30 PM
 
If we’re talking about the accusation Hunter sold influence with his dad and then kicked some money back to him, where do you get the idea it’s fabricated?

Lots of evidence on the laptop of the former. Less evidence of the latter, but non-zero.
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 15, 2023, 03:17 PM
 
Frankly the provinence of that laptop is sus.

Also also the outright grift that trump's children did in office...
     
subego
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Sep 15, 2023, 03:24 PM
 
It’s really not.

If the Trump people fabricated any of it, what we have is an open and shut libel case.


Edit: also, the laptop is currently in the possession of the FBI. If the Post reported something is on the laptop that isn’t actually there, doesn't the FBI has an obligation to correct the record?

Needless to say, they’ve made no correction.


Edit 2: I understand the inclination to lack respect for the people involved in this, but it strains my credulity to assert that with full knowledge the frigging police have an airtight case against them if they make something up, they go and do it anyway.
( Last edited by subego; Sep 15, 2023 at 05:36 PM. )
     
reader50
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Sep 15, 2023, 07:11 PM
 
According to a Hunter court filing a few months ago, he isn't sure if the laptop is his or not. Seems strange he'd drop off a laptop at a Trump-friendly shop, ignore months of entreaties to pick it up, and it just happens to have (possibly) incriminating evidence on it. Which the DOJ hasn't charged, despite the FBI having the laptop for several years now.

I don't find the Hunter legal problems all that interesting, until/unless evidence shows up tying his dad into something criminal. Hunter isn't a politician, or government employee. He's an adult child with no political career. As a private citizen, if he did something wrong, throw the book at him just like they would with any other private citizen.
     
subego
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Sep 16, 2023, 01:20 AM
 
Let’s take this one step at a time.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
According to a Hunter court filing a few months ago, he isn't sure if the laptop is his or not.
In other words, he’s unable to deny it’s his laptop.

If you had to guess, what’s stopping him from denying it?
     
OreoCookie  (op)
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Sep 16, 2023, 02:54 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Lots of evidence on the laptop of the former. Less evidence of the latter, but non-zero.
This seems like Benghazi/Whitewater all over again: there is a feeling or suspicion with more than a smidge of political opportunism mixed in that something is fishy without having any evidence for it, yet impeachment proceedings have launched before concrete evidence was found. I think that's why Benghazi and the Clinton impeachment are remembered they way they are, they were a fishing expedition into the lives of political opponents rather than a focussed, targeted charge.

The 7 (?) Benghazi investigations never revealed any wrongdoing of then-Secretary Clinton. The charge didn't even make sense to me. It seemed more like a smear campaign to damage her political reputation as a political offensive defense play. What's happening now seems to be the exact same thing — very different from Donald Trump's two impeachments, both of which were focussed on particular events with multiple witnesses stepping forth (including Republicans).

The data on the laptop has been out there for years, accusations of wrongdoing have literally been part of another impeachment proceeding already. Plenty of time for connections to be discovered by law enforcement, media, etc. None have been found so far that cross the threshold in my mind. You have some equivocal evidence where President Biden's actions are explained by him being the father of a troubled son, carefully balancing staying in touch and helping him the best he can without getting roped into his shady business dealings. Perhaps President Biden also made some mistakes, but that's different from being actively engaged in a conspiracy. Point being, this kind of evidence is not enough to legally prove that something shady has happened.

You can also have version of the story that lie in between where nothing criminally wrong has happened. E. g. you could think that Biden wanted to found a political dynasty like e. g. the Romneys: Joe Biden is the founder, Hunter was supposed to be responsible for the business end to fund the endeavor and Bo Biden was supposed to be his dad's successor. Just that Hunter wasn't cut out for honest business and Bo Biden's life was tragically cut short. (To emphasize, with business I mean honest business.) But then you have to come out and say that your problem is nepotism, and you would have to police it on both sides (including former President Trumps family and cases like Mitch McConnell serving as leader in the Senate while his wife Elaine Chao is Secretary of Labor (under George W. Bush) and Secretary of Transportation.

Lastly, it is curious how differently Joe Biden and his family are being treated from Donald Trump and his family. There is much better evidence that Donald Trump and his family have profited off of their time in the White House, including potential quid-pro-quos of former government officials (Google “Jared Kushner Saudi Sovereign Wealth Fund”).
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I disagree that “a lot” of democrats are concerned about Biden’s age. I think there’s “a lot” of media noise about his age, but much of that is being driven by partisan sources. Trump’s not much younger, and is far less in control of his faculties (and is certainly less physically fit) but there’s not a whisper about it. I think it’s easier for americans to clutch pearls about someone’s age than it is to openly address someone’s mental health.
As long as the two candidates are Biden and Trump, the age factor cuts both ways, both are of functionally the same age.
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
According to a Hunter court filing a few months ago, he isn't sure if the laptop is his or not. Seems strange he'd drop off a laptop at a Trump-friendly shop, ignore months of entreaties to pick it up, and it just happens to have (possibly) incriminating evidence on it. Which the DOJ hasn't charged, despite the FBI having the laptop for several years now.
Most of the coverage focussed on evidence of his drug habit and the related gun charge — criminally relevant, but it doesn't seem politically relevant. I think there is also a technical legal question whether and to what degree the laptop can be used as evidence. (According to my memory, the IT repair guy did not immediately hand it over to law enforcement)
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I don't find the Hunter legal problems all that interesting, until/unless evidence shows up tying his dad into something criminal. Hunter isn't a politician, or government employee. He's an adult child with no political career. As a private citizen, if he did something wrong, throw the book at him just like they would with any other private citizen.
That's the big difference: Hunter Biden has never been a political appointee, government employee or similar. He was not an advisor to his dad (unlike, say, Jared Kushner). And honest people can have crooked relatives. Plus, I think it'd be impossible for him to make a career without his family name being a factor. (Imagine if your name is Chelsea Clinton and you are applying for jobs …)
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subego
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Sep 16, 2023, 08:49 PM
 
I’m making very narrowly focused observations.

1) The laptop is Hunter’s. Everything the Post published which they claimed came from Hunter’s laptop did indeed come from his laptop, and was not altered in any way.

2) Evidence both Bidens broke the law exists on the laptop.


I’m not claiming either of them broke the law. Just because evidence exists they did, doesn’t mean they did.

I haven’t offered an opinion on whether this evidence should be pursued, and to what extent. It’s not relevant to the truth or falsehood of my observations.

Trump or his children have no relevance to the truth or falsehood of my observations. Neither do impeachment proceedings, Benghazi, double standards, or the GOP being hypocritical shitbags.
     
Thorzdad
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Oct 2, 2023, 06:13 PM
 
     
andi*pandi
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Oct 4, 2023, 11:35 AM
 
When the GOP is claiming that a rep accidentally opening an alarmed door that is not normally alarmed should be arrested and tried like Jan 6 insurrectionists, there is no integrity to the GOP. So the GOP being hypocritical shitbags is absolutely key info for any analysis of behavior.
( Last edited by andi*pandi; Oct 4, 2023 at 02:06 PM. )
     
reader50
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Oct 4, 2023, 01:50 PM
 
The door was not normally locked - presumably the fire alarm had been there a long time.

At the same time, Dems were stalling for time while reading McCarthy's spending bill. To make sure it was clean (it was). Jeffries was doing an extended speech - the minority leader can speak for as long as he likes. And the fire alarm got pulled. The D rep (not Senator) who pulled it says it was an accident. But it bought a few minutes more time for Dems to finish reading the bill.

I'm on the fence. It could be a dumb mistake. Or it could be some ad-hoc relief for Jeffries.
     
   
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