Welcome to the MacNN Forums.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

You are here: MacNN Forums > Community > MacNN Lounge > Political/War Lounge > Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread"

Pol Lounge General News Thread of "This doesn't deserve it's own thread" (Page 43)
Thread Tools
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 3, 2018, 07:11 PM
 
Lol. Suck it, Paul.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 3, 2018, 10:19 PM
 
Really hoping Don Blankenship doesn't get anywhere close to sniffing the GOP nom in WV. It wouldn't be more demoralizing than Roy Moore's nom, but its a 1-2 punch my spirit can't handle.

(So far it doesn't look like he's anywhere close)
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 06:07 PM
 
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-...ar-deal-2018-5
Former Secretary of State John Kerry has been meeting with world leaders in an effort to save the Iran nuclear deal ahead of its May 12 renewal deadline, The Boston Globe reported Friday.
Uh, are people cool with this? As much as I hate the Trump position on the deal, Kerry possibly undermining the US government action on this strikes me as a no-no.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 06:17 PM
 
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...medium=twitter
Graham said in an interview with the Associated Press that the whole Stormy Daniels scandal was “nobody’s business.”

… I don’t have concern, in a sense, because these things happened many years ago — and there’s such bigger problems in front of us as a nation that we need to be dealing with than other things in his life a long time ago. I think some of these things — that’s for him and his wife to deal with.
But the country knew the kind of person he was back then, and they still made the decision to make him the president of the United States.
I mean, sure, if you ignore him paying $130,000 so the country wouldn't know he cheated on his wife with a porn star, then yes, the country knew what kind of person he was back then.

this article Graham wrote for The Wall Street Journal in 1998, in which he said of President Bill Clinton:

If he will lie to or mislead his wife and daughter, those with whom he is most intimate, what will prevent him from doing the same to the American public?

Private conduct does have public consequences.
Checks out.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 06:30 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
http://www.businessinsider.com/john-...ar-deal-2018-5

Uh, are people cool with this? As much as I hate the Trump position on the deal, Kerry possibly undermining the US government action on this strikes me as a no-no.
Meanwhile in the WH...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...n-nuclear-deal
Aides to Donald Trump, the US president, hired an Israeli private intelligence agency to orchestrate a “dirty ops” campaign against key individuals from the Obama administration who helped negotiate the Iran nuclear deal, the Observer can reveal.

People in the Trump camp contacted private investigators in May last year to “get dirt” on Ben Rhodes, who had been one of Barack Obama’s top national security advisers, and Colin Kahl, deputy assistant to Obama, as part of an elaborate attempt to discredit the deal.
A source with details of the “dirty tricks campaign” said: “The idea was that people acting for Trump would discredit those who were pivotal in selling the deal, making it easier to pull out of it.”

According to incendiary documents seen by the Observer, investigators contracted by the private intelligence agency were told to dig into the personal lives and political careers of Rhodes, a former deputy national security adviser for strategic communications, and Kahl, a national security adviser to the former vice-president Joe Biden. Among other things they were looking at personal relationships, any involvement with Iran-friendly lobbyists, and if they had benefited personally or politically from the peace deal.
Is it hyperbole if I think this is W level juking the stats to trick the public into supporting your agenda?
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 08:02 PM
 
I was going to post the Israeli investigative firm story when I had time tonight. It bothers me.

Is it even legal for a PI firm in Isreal to investigate US citizens in the US? You typically need a PI license from each state that you operate in. A foreign company probably doesn't have PI licenses in each of the relevant US states. Even if Trump wanted dirt on previous government employees, why didn't he hire an American firm? Maybe because he had no evidence, and just wanted dirt to be found?
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 08:03 PM
 
As much as you may dislike this behavior its SOP I'm afraid.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 08:37 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
As much as you may dislike this behavior its SOP I'm afraid.
Which behavior? There's setting a narrative and then there's creating a narrative. The latter is not SOP.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 08:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
I was going to post the Israeli investigative firm story when I had time tonight. It bothers me.

Is it even legal for a PI firm in Isreal to investigate US citizens in the US? You typically need a PI license from each state that you operate in. A foreign company probably doesn't have PI licenses in each of the relevant US states. Even if Trump wanted dirt on previous government employees, why didn't he hire an American firm? Maybe because he had no evidence, and just wanted dirt to be found?
I don't think the PI thing really applies unless certain actions were taken. I don't think you need a license to make calls and do research. That strikes me as something everyone has a right to do.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 09:16 PM
 
What amazes me the most is that they spend all this effort on discrediting the “messengers” rather than focusing on the substance of the deal. It’s as if the Trump administration is still in campaign mode.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 09:19 PM
 
The PI angle has come up in copyright-trolling cases. Where IP address info was submitted, but the companies involved (often based in Europe) did not have state PI licenses. Admittedly, this was for submitting evidence to courts.

Still, using a foreign firm to investigate our citizens is improper. This feels like hiring another country to do espionage against your fellow citizens -- which is what it really is.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 09:52 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
The PI angle has come up in copyright-trolling cases. Where IP address info was submitted, but the companies involved (often based in Europe) did not have state PI licenses. Admittedly, this was for submitting evidence to courts.
This sounds like they stumbled onto privacy issues. Seems logical.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Still, using a foreign firm to investigate our citizens is improper. This feels like hiring another country to do espionage against your fellow citizens -- which is what it really is.
Does that apply to Christopher Steele?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 09:54 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
What amazes me the most is that they spend all this effort on discrediting the “messengers” rather than focusing on the substance of the deal. It’s as if the Trump administration is still in campaign mode.
They're focusing on discrediting the architects of the deal because the deal itself isn't nearly as bad as they portray it, and that's ignoring that our allies support the damn thing.

I'd also love for a conservative to explain why Trump has such a hard on for Iran when he's going in the opposite direction with North Korea. It's... incongruent.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 5, 2018, 11:05 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
The majority of complaints about the coarseness of the WHCD are coming from people who dismissed Trump joking about sexual assault as locker room talk. That's the thread tying the subjects together.


Also post some receipts showing me having a habit of deflecting to Trump or STFU with that shit. Projecting like your name is Trump over there.
That would be any post in the Russia thread. The whole Russia collusion scam was cooked up to deflect from the Clinton/DNC laundering funds through a law firm to pay Fusion GPS, and the ginormous pay to play scheme known as the Clinton Foundation and Uranium One. The Clintons ran the same racket with the Rose law firm.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 12:41 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I'd also love for a conservative to explain why Trump has such a hard on for Iran when he's going in the opposite direction with North Korea. It's... incongruent.
I’m confused.

The incongruous behavior is from North Korea. They suddenly sued for peace after decades of being a belligerent.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 02:21 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Does that apply to Christopher Steele?
Interesting comparison. Steel doesn't bother me because the things he investigated look credible. Enough so that considerable and sustained investigation has continued through other parties. And if he's right, there was an involved attack on the US election.

The current Israeli snooping agreement looks like an attempt to find dirt, with no real suspicion of any particular crime. Possibly done through a foreign company to avoid press scrutiny. If they've found anything since, they haven't mentioned it. I'd be far less bothered if they found criminal evidence, and published. Absent that, this is just random private snooping of citizens by a foreign company. Surely we have unemployed locals, who would be happy to dig for partisan dirt.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 11:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Which behavior? There's setting a narrative and then there's creating a narrative. The latter is not SOP.
Killing the messenger is SOP.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 06:06 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
That would be any post in the Russia thread.
So you don't understand what deflection is.


Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m confused.

The incongruous behavior is from North Korea. They suddenly sued for peace after decades of being a belligerent.
You're explaining why the Trump admin is interested in diplomacy with NK. Would you say they are interested in similar diplomacy with Iran?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 06:13 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Interesting comparison. Steel doesn't bother me because the things he investigated look credible. Enough so that considerable and sustained investigation has continued through other parties. And if he's right, there was an involved attack on the US election.

The current Israeli snooping agreement looks like an attempt to find dirt, with no real suspicion of any particular crime.
I mean, was Steele really looking for specific crimes? I think general idea was just to look through his past and see if any red flags came up.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Possibly done through a foreign company to avoid press scrutiny.
I'm guessing the foreign firm was hired both because they came recommended by Bibi's govt. and because the Iraelis might be well motivated given the subject. I find neither of these particularly nefarious.

Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
Absent that, this is just random private snooping of citizens by a foreign company. Surely we have unemployed locals, who would be happy to dig for partisan dirt.
Speculation is this is the same company that Weinstein hired to discredit his accusers. That is a huge red flag. That indicates that any 'dirt' they find may not be on the level.


Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Killing the messenger is SOP.
The messenger was the Obama admin, though.

Do you have any similar examples to show this is SOP? It feels different to me.
     
reader50
Administrator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: California
Status: Online
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 07:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I mean, was Steele really looking for specific crimes? I think general idea was just to look through his past and see if any red flags came up.
According to the Wikipedia page on Steel, he'd been looking at Russian influence on domestic politics before Trump threw his hat in the ring.
Steele ran an investigation dubbed "Project Charlemagne", which noted Russian interference in the domestic politics of France, Italy, Germany, Turkey, and the United Kingdom. Steele concluded in April 2016 that Russia was engaged in an information warfare campaign with the goal of destroying the European Union.
The way I read it, Steel was investigating Russian meddling in general already, got paid to look into Russian ties to Trump, and continued investigating the Russian ends after his contract ran out. He also supplied the results to European and American intelligence agencies, and presently, to the press. Out of concern over what he was finding.

I read it as the opposite of digging for dirt in the hope of finding it. He found evidence of crimes, initially on his own time, and has been trying to warn anyone who will listen. Via the official channels first, then getting word to the public via the press. And it doesn't sound like he was interested in Trump personally. More in who's calling or paying him, and what else those parties are doing to show their intentions.
     
BLAZE_MkIV
Professional Poster
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Nashua NH, USA
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post

The messenger was the Obama admin, though.

Do you have any similar examples to show this is SOP? It feels different to me.
Its a tactic used by both sides, legal and political

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/opini...zer/index.html
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 10:59 PM
 
Originally Posted by BLAZE_MkIV View Post
Its a tactic used by both sides, legal and political

https://www.cnn.com/2017/06/13/opini...zer/index.html
That's not about policy, though. That's more legal tussling.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 11:01 PM
 
Originally Posted by reader50 View Post
According to the Wikipedia page on Steel, he'd been looking at Russian influence on domestic politics before Trump threw his hat in the ring.

The way I read it, Steel was investigating Russian meddling in general already, got paid to look into Russian ties to Trump, and continued investigating the Russian ends after his contract ran out. He also supplied the results to European and American intelligence agencies, and presently, to the press. Out of concern over what he was finding.

I read it as the opposite of digging for dirt in the hope of finding it. He found evidence of crimes, initially on his own time, and has been trying to warn anyone who will listen. Via the official channels first, then getting word to the public via the press. And it doesn't sound like he was interested in Trump personally. More in who's calling or paying him, and what else those parties are doing to show their intentions.
Actually I think I recall the impetus now. Trump made a lot of claims about links to Russia, financially, though he never could quite seal a deal. I think that was the primary focus of Steele's research: To see if Trump really had any links to Russian business. And then it took a turn.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 11:03 PM
 
https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-...tion-officials
Adriana Gavrilo and Eva Novak appear to be aliases. LinkedIn pages for both Gavrilo and Novak at one point showed a slim blond woman advertised as fluent in Serbian. Shortly after The New Yorker contacted Black Cube about this story, Novak’s LinkedIn page was deleted. The e-mail addresses listed by both women do not work. Calls to the phone number Novak listed went unanswered. The Web sites for Reuben Capital Partners and Shell Productions have been taken down, but both were bare-bones pages constructed through the free site-building tool Wix. The addresses for both companies led to shared office spaces; there is no evidence that Shell Productions or Reuben Capital Partners had ever operated there.
In the Iran operation, as in its operation for Weinstein, Black Cube focussed much of its work on reporters and other media figures, sometimes using agents who posed as journalists. The company compiled a list of more than thirty reporters who it believed were in touch with Obama Administration officials, annotated with instructions about how to seek negative information. Transcripts produced by Black Cube reveal that the firm secretly recorded a conversation between one of its agents and Trita Parsi, a Swedish-Iranian author. The conversation, which began as a general discussion of Iran policy, quickly devolved into questions about Rhodes, Kahl, and whether they had personally profited off of the Iran policy. “I’ve had the first part of the conversation five hundred times,” Parsi recalled, of his conversation with the agent, who claimed to be a reporter. “But then he started asking about personal financial interests, and that was more unusual. He was pushing very, very hard.”
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 6, 2018, 11:26 PM
 
It occurs to me, this has Bannon's fingerprints all over it.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 03:23 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I’m confused.

The incongruous behavior is from North Korea. They suddenly sued for peace after decades of being a belligerent.
Yes, they also recently obtained nuclear capabilities and functional long-range missiles. So in that view, their behavior is not incongruous at all. North Korea has achieved the decades-long goal of becoming a nuclear power, and now feels safe enough to negotiate agreements on eye level with other powers. Reducing everything to Trump's flailing and erratic foreign policy approach is a bit too simplistic. And additionally, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be successful for the US. (Will the US withdrawing troops from the Korean peninsula and perhaps scaling back its bases on Okinawa be a success for the US or not? While you may well argue that the US scaling back its military deployment abroad, I think most hawks would see that as a negative.)
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Does that apply to Christopher Steele?
I'm not condoning this type of opposition research, but I nevertheless think it makes a difference to do oppo research on an opponent in an election and to do “opposition” research on low-level staffers who worked on a deal concluded by a prior administration in order to undermine said agreement. Of course, the opposition here is not to the election of a political opponent, but to what was negotiated after the fact. I haven't heard of such a case before, and it would open Pandora's Box if applied more broadly. What if you try to discredit judges by doing “oppo” research on them? Or career staffers?
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 11:35 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
You're explaining why the Trump admin is interested in diplomacy with NK. Would you say they are interested in similar diplomacy with Iran?
I won’t really know unless Iran suddenly does a 180° like NK did.

A few months ago, before the 180°, we were publicly discussing plans to turn Pyongyang into a smoking crater.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 11:45 AM
 
Dude, Iran already got rid of their nuclear program
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 12:01 PM
 
If NK’s stance was “we’ll denuclearize, but just so everybody’s clear, we still intend to reclaim SK”, would our attitude be the same?

Sure, Iran has denuclearized, but they basically use every other opportunity to **** with us and Israel.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 12:10 PM
 
You're feisty today. Devils advocate everywhere.

Is curbing Irans foreign policy more important than getting nukes out of their hands?
If that the admins view, they should make that case. I don't think most people will agree.
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 12:25 PM
 
Trump is planning to scuttle the 2015 iran deal signed with John Kerry etc. Not sure how that will effect their chill.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 08:51 PM
 
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/...-invite-572681
Sen. John McCain should reconsider his wish that President Donald Trump not attend McCain's funeral, said Sen. Orrin Hatch, the most senior GOP senator.

McCain prefers instead that Vice President Mike Pence attend his funeral rather than Trump, who has mocked McCain for being tortured and attacked him for voting against Obamacare repeal. But Hatch said he thought keeping the president from his funeral was too much: "I think it's ridiculous."

"Well, he's the president of the United States and he's a very good man. But it's up to [McCain]. I think John should have his own wishes fulfilled with regard to who attends the funeral," said the Utah senator. Asked whether McCain should change his mind about Trump, Hatch said: "I would."
What the **** is wrong with Orrin Hatch?
     
andi*pandi
Moderator
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: inside 128, north of 90
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 09:42 PM
 
You'd think that jerk would honor a dying man's wish?
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 7, 2018, 09:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
You'd think that jerk would honor a dying man's wish?
If I were his family, nothing would give me more pleasure than barring him from attending.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 01:18 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Is curbing Irans foreign policy more important than getting nukes out of their hands?

     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 01:33 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Yes, they also recently obtained nuclear capabilities and functional long-range missiles. So in that view, their behavior is not incongruous at all. North Korea has achieved the decades-long goal of becoming a nuclear power, and now feels safe enough to negotiate agreements on eye level with other powers. Reducing everything to Trump's flailing and erratic foreign policy approach is a bit too simplistic. And additionally, it doesn't necessarily mean it will be successful for the US. (Will the US withdrawing troops from the Korean peninsula and perhaps scaling back its bases on Okinawa be a success for the US or not? While you may well argue that the US scaling back its military deployment abroad, I think most hawks would see that as a negative.)
If nukes are what make a country eye-level, why is denuclearization on the table?
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 01:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
If nukes are what make a country eye-level, why is denuclearization on the table?
Because North Korea knows it is asking for something that they know the US won't give — sort of if Russia is saying to the US “We are willing to give up nuclear weapons entirely if you do.”* And since North Korea knows the US won't agree to that, by that logic they will say “well, then we will keep ours!”

* Most certainly denuclearization would include not just troops on the Korean peninsula, but also in Japan. For Japan, the US's nuclear umbrella is not just meant as protection against North Korea, but primarily against China.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 07:25 AM
 
Let’s assume that’s true, and get back to the original question.

From what I can tell, NK’s nuclear program isn’t quite ready to earn it a full seat at the table. They need at least a half-dozen rockets, with warheads, gassed up and ready to launch within 30 seconds of getting the signal.

They’re still a ways off from that.
     
OreoCookie
Moderator
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Hilbert space
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 08:17 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Let’s assume that’s true, and get back to the original question.

From what I can tell, NK’s nuclear program isn’t quite ready to earn it a full seat at the table. They need at least a half-dozen rockets, with warheads, gassed up and ready to launch within 30 seconds of getting the signal.

They’re still a ways off from that.
First of all, I fail to see how this distinction of yours is useful. It feels like a petty attempt to tell North Korea that they aren't an equal with a nuclear superpower that could eradicate the entire human race. Instead they could “just” destroy the population centers one or two countries with a combined population of 170+ million.

Plus, how do you know whether they are ways off, and if they are, how far off they are? The exact intelligence estimates are of course Top Secret, but according to reports from last year North Korea could have as many as 60 warheads ready to go; more conservative estimates are 20-25 warheads. The higher estimate is roughly on par with the lowball estimates for Israel's nuclear arsenal (the WaPo quotes 80, although I have seen estimates as high as 200).

In terms of delivery systems, North Korea has had intermediate range missiles that can reach Japan (and in principle at least large swaths of China) for more than 8 years now. According to experts the warheads are small enough to be fitted onto at least the medium range missiles. Why would you assume they have stopped assembling those, and that those aren't ready to go? Additionally, they have many missiles with a range of 1,300-1,500 km, some of which can be launched from submarines.

Or were you just counting ICBMs? With those, it is not clear whether North Korea has miniaturized its nuclear warheads far enough so as to equip its ICBMs with them. We evidently don't know how many North Korea has, and we can read the tea leaves on their test moratorium many different ways. But given all of this evidence, I think it is foolish to try and deal with them pretending they must not, cannot have this capability.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 09:13 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Given the glib response, I'll let you tell me. Why haven't they done both before?
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 09:36 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Given the glib response, I'll let you tell me. Why haven't they done both before?
Because not doing it is probably the smarter thing?

I’m just providing my best guess as to a congruent thought process.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 09:57 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Because not doing it is probably the smarter thing?

I’m just providing my best guess as to a congruent thought process.
This is why I hate devils advocate versus having a discussion with someone on sincerely held beliefs. The conversation devolves into CNN quality logic and spin. Personally I can live without that.
     
subego
Clinically Insane
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Chicago, Bang! Bang!
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 8, 2018, 11:09 AM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
This is why I hate devils advocate versus having a discussion with someone on sincerely held beliefs. The conversation devolves into CNN quality logic and spin. Personally I can live without that.
I’m not sure the problem is me DAing so much as I’m at a loss for what the confusion is over.

We’re comparing our different stances towards NK and Iran. To me, the elephant in the room is one country is being nice to us, and the other’s being a giant dick.

It was asked why it’s better to curb foreign policy than keep nukes away. To me, the elephant in the room is the admin doesn’t intend to let Iran get nukes. We’re not going to punch them in the face, and then wait while they scrounge up a crowbar, we’re going to keep punching them in the face.
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 9, 2018, 08:02 AM
 
Remember how congress let CHIP expire, and how states went months trying to keep their programs running even as their funds dried up, and how congress finally restored CHIP funding and eventually made it a 10-year plan?

On Tuesday, Trump submitted his rescission plan to congress, which aims to grab-back close to $15 billion in authorized non-defense spending. Guess where he wants almost half of that $15 billion to come from? CHIP.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2018, 11:46 AM
 
More Hillary health hysteria. First it was the video from India of her descending some stairs.




Now there is speculation she is wearing a back brace.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ons-brace.html



Trying to hide the brace?
( Last edited by Chongo; May 11, 2018 at 04:07 PM. )
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2018, 12:08 PM
 
I'm not sure why you'd find this hilarious. I once wore a back brace because of some severe back issues. I hid it under my clothes, too.
     
The Final Dakar  (op)
Games Meister
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Eternity
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2018, 02:46 PM
 
Whatyearisit.jpg
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2018, 04:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Thorzdad View Post
I'm not sure why you'd find this hilarious. I once wore a back brace because of some severe back issues. I hid it under my clothes, too.
I changed it to hysteria. I was going for the alliteration effect.
     
Chongo
Addicted to MacNN
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 11, 2018, 04:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
Whatyearisit.jpg
Why it's 2018, the 70th anniversary of the rebirth of Israel!


http://en.hamikdash.org.il/about/we-...n-temple-coin/
     
Thorzdad
Moderator
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Nobletucky
Status: Offline
Reply With Quote
May 13, 2018, 07:09 PM
 
So, new NRA president Ollie North had some things to say about the Parkland students...
They’re not activists—this is civil terrorism. This is the kind of thing that’s never been seen against a civil rights organization in America...You go back to the terrible days of Jim Crow and those kinds of things—even there you didn’t have this kind of thing.
Yes, Ollie North equated the “plight” of the NRA with the treatment of blacks in the Jim Crow south.
     
 
Thread Tools
 
Forum Links
Forum Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Top
Privacy Policy
All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:50 PM.
All contents of these forums © 1995-2017 MacNN. All rights reserved.
Branding + Design: www.gesamtbild.com
vBulletin v.3.8.8 © 2000-2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.,