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"Porn is for losers"? But what about Birth Control and Vasectomies, are they cool? (Page 2)
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Chongo
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Sep 9, 2016, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
I think you have some very serious disillusions of porn.
If you think porn is harmless, that is a delusion.
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starman
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Sep 9, 2016, 06:38 PM
 
Well, it hasn't hurt me, or anyone I know. And no, I don't watch it often, either. It just...is.

But I'm sure you think I'm some f*cked up mental case, right?

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sek929
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Sep 9, 2016, 07:21 PM
 
How many ways does the Catholic Church warp the mind?

Actually, before I get personal I'll just let myself out.
( Last edited by sek929; Sep 9, 2016 at 11:42 PM. )
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2016, 03:51 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think too many people would view this as encouraging or endorsing porn, and as you write this wouldn't jive with conservative Christians who even have a problem with teaching birth control properly.
This is what makes the idea silly. Not that it's a bad idea, but the business model is too ahead of its time.

It's not just conservatives or the religious.

I grew up in a non-religious, hippy-dippy household. Montessori school... the whole nine-yards.

My dad never talked to me about fapping, and porn was somewhat frowned upon from a feminist standpoint.

Of course, dealing with this in the 70's and 80's was different than it is now, but I haven't detected an upswell in the number of parents who feel comfortable talking about fapschlick with their kids.

I don't envy parents now. I didn't see actual PiV until I was 14.
     
Chongo
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Sep 10, 2016, 04:19 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
This is what makes the idea silly. Not that it's a bad idea, but the business model is too ahead of its time.

It's not just conservatives or the religious.

I grew up in a non-religious, hippy-dippy household. Montessori school... the whole nine-yards.

My dad never talked to me about fapping, and porn was somewhat frowned upon from a feminist standpoint.

Of course, dealing with this in the 70's and 80's was different than it is now, but I haven't detected an upswell in the number of parents who feel comfortable talking about fapschlick with their kids.

I don't envy parents now. I didn't see actual PiV until I was 14.
This is what I asked "where are the anti porn feminists? Back in the day feminists fought against porn because it exploited women.
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 10, 2016, 04:45 PM
 
It still exploits women. Some women have done very well out of it but many more don't.

I guess you don't need to get quite as graphic as all that, though it might be helpful if you did. How else could you give someone a really good idea of what to expect? Anatomical diagrams are really pretty abstract from the real thing.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2016, 06:42 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
It still exploits women. Some women have done very well out of it but many more don't.

I guess you don't need to get quite as graphic as all that, though it might be helpful if you did. How else could you give someone a really good idea of what to expect? Anatomical diagrams are really pretty abstract from the real thing.
That was the flipside of hippy-dippy Montessori school.

At 6-years-old, I got to pull this out of the in-class library.



For example, you had kitschy, 70's drawings of naked mom and dad, but there was some attempt to put them into context, like mom and dad taking a bath.

When they actually bang, there are little hearts floating around.
     
subego
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Sep 10, 2016, 08:49 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
BTW, what happened to all antiporn feminists?
I imagine they became more focused on general purpose gender exploitation.

It's not very compatible with the anti-slut shaming agenda, and from a practical standpoint, it's a lost cause. The best one can hope for is some light damage control, like being anti-revenge porn.
     
Chongo
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Sep 10, 2016, 08:53 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I imagine they became more focused on general purpose gender exploitation.

It's not very compatible with the anti-slut shaming agenda, and from a practical standpoint, it's a lost cause. The best one can hope for is some light damage control, like being anti-revenge porn.
It wouldn't surprise me if they are, like the anti corporate hippies of the sixties and seventies, running porn companies now.
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subego
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Sep 10, 2016, 10:07 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Someone posted in the convention threads mocking the inclusion of porn as a public health crisis. I know from experience it poisons the soul. It warps how men see women.
That was me mocking it!

I was mainly mocking the poor optics. It only appeals to an already committed slice of the Republican base, but is a big ol' plate of red meat for the Democrats.

The thing is, I actually do consider it a problem.

It does warp men's view of women, but it's the extent which matters, and that's variable. It can poison the soul, or at least some worldly approximation of it. I also think in the vast majority of situations its creation and/or dissemination is exploitative.

There's a lot of value in trying to minimize these negative effects, and I wouldn't really object to said negative effects being called a public health crisis.

That's not saying porn is a public health crisis, though. It's some fairly specific beefs.
     
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Sep 11, 2016, 02:48 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
The thing is, I actually do consider it a problem.

It does warp men's view of women, but it's the extent which matters, and that's variable. It can poison the soul, or at least some worldly approximation of it. I also think in the vast majority of situations its creation and/or dissemination is exploitative.
I think a lot of problems are due to how we handle porn and sexuality in general. If parents don't impart their children with a healthy attitude towards sex, including porn, then yes, adolescents and young adults will have a harder time to make it normal. Especially when it comes to women, even among my friends, some women are convinced that watching porn is a purely guy thing — not true. And they are then surprised when other women admit to watching porn themselves. Nevertheless, having porn that is geared more towards women will ameliorate the gender stereo typing as well as the exploitation.

But instead of focussing on porn exclusively, we should aim at having a more normal, relaxed and natural attitude towards sex in general. Having sex is normal, and not some holier-than-thou activity where you need to intrude into the temple of female purity. Sex is a major part of a relationship, the lack of sexual attraction usually leads to a breakup or a divorce. And porn can be a normal part of someone's sex life.
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subego
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Sep 11, 2016, 03:04 AM
 
I forget whose idea I'm mangling, but I see porn as like the sewers. It's good we have sewers. Things would be very bad without sewers. Sewers are not something you celebrate.

Maybe porn can become something else, but this is the way it's been my entire life.

When it comes to actual sex, I'm Mr. Sex Positive.
     
OreoCookie
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Sep 11, 2016, 10:25 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I forget whose idea I'm mangling, but I see porn as like the sewers. It's good we have sewers. Things would be very bad without sewers. Sewers are not something you celebrate.
Why is porn like the sewers? I don't get that comparison, it implies you're doing something “dirty, but necessary”. Why can't watching porn be like watching a sports game — a leisure and fun? The inhibited attitude that the comparison of porn with sewers implies, I think, is much more harmful than porn itself.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
When it comes to actual sex, I'm Mr. Sex Positive.
How is masturbation — or sex — not part of actual sex? (I occasionally watch porn with my wife as part of foreplay.)
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besson3c
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Sep 11, 2016, 11:39 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
Lust, one of the seven deadly sins.
Greed is a deadly sin too, but you don't seem too interested in Bernie Sanders and other left wing politics.

My perception of you is that you cherry pick the religious and political stuff you like, and you fixate on certain things while losing focus of the greater picture. If this wasn't so you wouldn't be so deeply entrenched into right wing politics, and you'll be denouncing stuff that happens in the Republican party on a regular basis.

Why is it that abortion is an issue you seem to care about far more than greed, murder (war), empathy, and caring for the poor?

Maybe Jawbone should be a model for you.
     
besson3c
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Sep 11, 2016, 11:44 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I think a lot of problems are due to how we handle porn and sexuality in general. If parents don't impart their children with a healthy attitude towards sex, including porn, then yes, adolescents and young adults will have a harder time to make it normal. Especially when it comes to women, even among my friends, some women are convinced that watching porn is a purely guy thing — not true. And they are then surprised when other women admit to watching porn themselves. Nevertheless, having porn that is geared more towards women will ameliorate the gender stereo typing as well as the exploitation.

But instead of focussing on porn exclusively, we should aim at having a more normal, relaxed and natural attitude towards sex in general. Having sex is normal, and not some holier-than-thou activity where you need to intrude into the temple of female purity. Sex is a major part of a relationship, the lack of sexual attraction usually leads to a breakup or a divorce. And porn can be a normal part of someone's sex life.

This summarizes my take on this quite nicely. +1.
     
subego
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Sep 11, 2016, 01:58 PM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
Why is porn like the sewers? I don't get that comparison, it implies you're doing something “dirty, but necessary”. Why can't watching porn be like watching a sports game — a leisure and fun? The inhibited attitude that the comparison of porn with sewers implies, I think, is much more harmful than porn itself.
My inhibitions are fundamentally connected to the exploitation aspects. If you peek inside the head of most of the on-screen players, it looks like Vietnam.

Consumption is tacit acceptance of this state of affairs.

I'm not going to get on anyone's case for consumption, I consume it myself. However I take issue with the claim prudery is the only distinction between healthy and unhealthy porn.

As I said, maybe porn can become something else, but in my lifetime the vast majority of it has been exploitative.

I'm presuming you don't distribute or sell videos of you having sex. Do you have any fear doing so would take something that's awesome and personal, and turn it into something kinda twisted and mercenary?
     
Chongo
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Sep 11, 2016, 03:03 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
Greed is a deadly sin too, but you don't seem too interested in Bernie Sanders and other left wing politics.

My perception of you is that you cherry pick the religious and political stuff you like, and you fixate on certain things while losing focus of the greater picture. If this wasn't so you wouldn't be so deeply entrenched into right wing politics, and you'll be denouncing stuff that happens in the Republican party on a regular basis.

Why is it that abortion is an issue you seem to care about far more than greed, murder (war), empathy, and caring for the poor?

Maybe Jawbone should be a model for you.
I won't bother quoting from the Catechism or from St John Paul the Great's Chistifidelis Laici. (inviolability of the right to life, solidarity through subsidiarity, just war doctrine) That would be casting pearls, etc.

Yes, greed is one of the seven deadly sins. So is sloth, gluttony, anger, vanity, pride, and envy. All parties are filled with people who are guilty of those sins. It's the Demoncrats who make it a point of pride.

War and the death penalty are not intrinsically evil, abortion is.
You're incapable of committing any of those sins if you are aborted.


Caring for the poor, I've been over that, numerous times.

Now, back topic.
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Sep 11, 2016, 07:35 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
My inhibitions are fundamentally connected to the exploitation aspects. If you peek inside the head of most of the on-screen players, it looks like Vietnam.
How is that fundamentally different from other forms of show biz? Moreover, I would say that the inhibitions similar to yours of society are connected to the exploitation, because they make it harder for retired porn actors to find regular jobs and be accepted by society. Cause and effect are not lined up in the way
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm presuming you don't distribute or sell videos of you having sex. Do you have any fear doing so would take something that's awesome and personal, and turn it into something kinda twisted and mercenary?
I'd make the same argument about regular movies: I have zero interest in becoming an actor, and that has no bearing on me wanting to watch movies. These two have nothing to do with one another, not wanting to perform in front of a camera (porn or otherwise) has nothing to do with me viewing it.

Ditto for the standard question, “Would you want your daughter to become a porn star?” (What about my son?!? It seems that society is mostly concerned with the sexuality of women.) I'd have similar concerns if they went into modeling or acting — professions where your appearance is your money maker. A class mate of mine is a male model. With 35 his career must be ending while mine is soaring. I think this is quite problematic, unless you are planning ahead.
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Sep 11, 2016, 07:51 PM
 
The problem with porn is its a competitive industry and inevitably it has figuratively (and literally) become a race to the bottom.

To entice the consumer to your wares ahead of your competition, you have to be prepared to offer new things but there is only so many new things. So we started where naked drawings were shocking and tantalising, then we had photos, videos, close of ups of genitals during the act and before you know it there are record breaking gang bangs, triple penetrations etc etc.
Porn was way ahead of the curve when it comes to clickbait ads and so the consumers quickly move past vanilla porn and (even if its only to see if the tailgates are true) soon find themselves unaroused by anything short of a 6 midget orgy on a twister mat in a vat of astroglide. In short they get spoiled and then that translates back to their real sex lives and soon there are teenage boys wondering why the cheerleaders don't want to be shared with the rest of the football team. Or worse there are cheerleaders who are going along with that because they think they are supposed to.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
besson3c
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Sep 12, 2016, 08:45 AM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
I won't bother quoting from the Catechism or from St John Paul the Great's Chistifidelis Laici. (inviolability of the right to life, solidarity through subsidiarity, just war doctrine) That would be casting pearls, etc.

Yes, greed is one of the seven deadly sins. So is sloth, gluttony, anger, vanity, pride, and envy. All parties are filled with people who are guilty of those sins. It's the Demoncrats who make it a point of pride.

War and the death penalty are not intrinsically evil, abortion is.
You're incapable of committing any of those sins if you are aborted.


Caring for the poor, I've been over that, numerous times.

Now, back topic.

I'll drop this because obviously it is a waste of both of our time, and possibly offensive to you, but I'm oddly fascinated that you are comfortable with this logic and basing what seems to be a big part of your life around this logic.
     
subego
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Sep 12, 2016, 11:08 AM
 
Originally Posted by OreoCookie View Post
I'd make the same argument about regular movies: I have zero interest in becoming an actor, and that has no bearing on me wanting to watch movies. These two have nothing to do with one another, not wanting to perform in front of a camera (porn or otherwise) has nothing to do with me viewing it.
I'm not asking why you don't pursue a career as a porn star.

Let's say you "magically" get a clip of yourself having sex. The magic part is it required no effort on your part (other than sex), and its creation didn't violate anyone's privacy... like I said, it was magic.

Assuming whomever you were having sex with will happily abide by your decision, do you upload it to a site of homemade porn? If not why not?

I personally wouldn't. The intimate part of sex is important to me, and dissemination of the clip would (pretty much by definition) destroy that.
     
starman
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Sep 12, 2016, 11:53 AM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not asking why you don't pursue a career as a porn star.

Let's say you "magically" get a clip of yourself having sex. The magic part is it required no effort on your part (other than sex), and its creation didn't violate anyone's privacy... like I said, it was magic.

Assuming whomever you were having sex with will happily abide by your decision, do you upload it to a site of homemade porn? If not why not?

I personally wouldn't. The intimate part of sex is important to me, and dissemination of the clip would (pretty much by definition) destroy that.
It would definitely be a lively discussion

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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 12, 2016, 12:23 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'll drop this because obviously it is a waste of both of our time, and possibly offensive to you, but I'm oddly fascinated that you are comfortable with this logic and basing what seems to be a big part of your life around this logic.
I'm sure he's even more fascinated by your complete lack of faith. Atheism is fashionable right now, it's part of the present zeitgeist, but that won't always be the case.
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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 01:33 PM
 
Originally Posted by besson3c View Post
I'll drop this because obviously it is a waste of both of our time, and possibly offensive to you, but I'm oddly fascinated that you are comfortable with this logic and basing what seems to be a big part of your life around this logic.
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Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 12, 2016, 02:09 PM
 
^^ That is what scripture prescribes in this situation.
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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 02:15 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
^^ That is what scripture prescribes in this situation.
That's my guess why we haven't heard from Big Mac anymore.
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Jawbone54
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Sep 12, 2016, 02:20 PM
 
Originally Posted by The Final Dakar View Post
I can only speculate, but I have to wonder if these are people who were raised in a place where sex was taboo, so they used porn as their teacher. Or if they were virgins who had no experience in sex until marriage.
In that particular case, no. The guy was in his late 20s and had been sexually active since his mid-teens.
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2016, 03:44 PM
 
So what happened in the first 10 days of marriage that wasn't obvious in 15 years of being sexually active?
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 12, 2016, 04:14 PM
 
A person can be sexually active w/o ever being in love, obviously. People tend to treat hook-ups with less regard and respect than they would a spouse.
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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 04:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
A person can be sexually active w/o ever being in love, obviously. People tend to treat hook-ups with less regard and respect than they would a spouse.
From paragraph #17


No, it's not the sole reason, but it sure made it easier.
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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 04:48 PM
 
Good question. Does porn prevent rape?
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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 04:56 PM
 
Curiouser and curiouser. Sound like one of Howard Stern shows.

In Love' With a Robot? Why Sex With Machines May 'Cause Psychopathic Disorders'

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/art_living/2...-machines.html
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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 12, 2016, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
From paragraph #17


No, it's not the sole reason, but it sure made it easier.
When do Christians show that reverence? After they buy her from her father? Or collect her as spoils of war perhaps? Its obviously not during the several days per month when she is unclean and must be confined to her tent and not touched.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
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Sep 12, 2016, 05:25 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
From paragraph #17


No, it's not the sole reason, but it sure made it easier.
Sorry, this is horseshit.

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Waragainstsleep
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Sep 12, 2016, 05:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
I'm sure he's even more fascinated by your complete lack of faith. Atheism is fashionable right now, it's part of the present zeitgeist, but that won't always be the case.
Oh thats cute that you think that.

One day when we are all educated to a decent level, religion will be an equally amusing and appalling footnote in human history.
I have plenty of more important things to do, if only I could bring myself to do them....
     
Laminar
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Sep 12, 2016, 05:43 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
A person can be sexually active w/o ever being in love, obviously. People tend to treat hook-ups with less regard and respect than they would a spouse.
One can assume he was in love before getting married. Even if they chose not to have sex with each other before getting married, was there never a frank conversation about sexual history, preferences, and expectations?
     
subego
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Sep 12, 2016, 06:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
When do Christians show that reverence? After they buy her from her father? Or collect her as spoils of war perhaps? Its obviously not during the several days per month when she is unclean and must be confined to her tent and not touched.
This all sounds pretty OT.
     
Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 06:27 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
When do Christians show that reverence? After they buy her from her father? Or collect her as spoils of war perhaps? Its obviously not during the several days per month when she is unclean and must be confined to her tent and not touched.
Nice try Judiazer.
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subego
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Sep 12, 2016, 06:45 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Oh thats cute that you think that.

One day when we are all educated to a decent level, religion will be an equally amusing and appalling footnote in human history.
Discussed before, but worth repeating.

"I’m speaking here as an atheist. I don’t believe there is a God, but I respect every religion deeply."

- Camille Paglia Uneducated Idiot
     
The Final Dakar
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Sep 12, 2016, 07:17 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
In that particular case, no. The guy was in his late 20s and had been sexually active since his mid-teens.
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
So what happened in the first 10 days of marriage that wasn't obvious in 15 years of being sexually active?
That just makes it weirder. Was this guy doing kinky shit and tried to reform? Because this doesn't make much sense unless he went vanilla without, you know, testing it.
     
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Sep 12, 2016, 07:39 PM
 
Originally Posted by Jawbone54 View Post
In that particular case, no. The guy was in his late 20s and had been sexually active since his mid-teens.
Did they have sex before they have gotten married? You usually figure out sexual compatibility between partners very quickly.
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subego
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Sep 12, 2016, 08:16 PM
 
Originally Posted by Cap'n Tightpants View Post
^^ That is what scripture prescribes in this situation.
To the layman, it looks like they're farting.
     
Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 08:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Sorry, this is horseshit.
How so?
45/47
     
starman
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Sep 12, 2016, 09:09 PM
 
Originally Posted by Chongo View Post
How so?
Because I lived life by my own rules.

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Chongo
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Sep 12, 2016, 09:24 PM
 
Originally Posted by starman View Post
Because I lived life by my own rules.
One of your rules is to "use women as mere intstrument of your" pleasure? Wham bam thankya ma'am?
45/47
     
andi*pandi
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Sep 12, 2016, 10:33 PM
 
The assumption is that contraception itself is to blame for men not respecting their women, when in fact, contraception has very little to do with respect. Married couples not using contraception are capable of disrespect, taking the partner for granted, etc.

ew, I'm posting in the porn thread.

Sigh. While I'm here... early feminists protested against porn, because the women were taken advantage of and had little control. They chose the line of work, sure, but fair pay, health, safety, and being paid enough were all factors they couldn't control. Nowadays I'm sure there are more women-owned porn companies, woman directors etc who hopefully take better care of their performers.
     
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Sep 12, 2016, 10:47 PM
 
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
The assumption is that contraception itself is to blame for men not respecting their women, when in fact, contraception has very little to do with respect. Married couples not using contraception are capable of disrespect, taking the partner for granted, etc.
The widespread use of contraception has enabled humanity — and especially women — to have sex simply for recreational purposes. This is a huge advancement for both sexes.
Originally Posted by andi*pandi View Post
Sigh. While I'm here... early feminists protested against porn, because the women were taken advantage of and had little control. They chose the line of work, sure, but fair pay, health, safety, and being paid enough were all factors they couldn't control. Nowadays I'm sure there are more women-owned porn companies, woman directors etc who hopefully take better care of their performers.
While there are still feministis who want to see porn and prostitution abolished, the younger generation seems to put more emphasis on the self determination of women — and that includes making choices that they personally would perhaps not make. To me it seems absurd to advance the cause of women by continuing to regulate their sexuality. If they want to “give away” their services as a sex worker on film, it's their body and it should be their decision.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
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Sep 12, 2016, 10:55 PM
 
Originally Posted by subego View Post
I'm not asking why you don't pursue a career as a porn star.

Let's say you "magically" get a clip of yourself having sex. The magic part is it required no effort on your part (other than sex), and its creation didn't violate anyone's privacy... like I said, it was magic.
That doesn't make sense to me: I don't want my sex tape all over the internet, and no amount of magic that would change that.
Originally Posted by subego View Post
Assuming whomever you were having sex with will happily abide by your decision, do you upload it to a site of homemade porn? If not why not?

I personally wouldn't. The intimate part of sex is important to me, and dissemination of the clip would (pretty much by definition) destroy that.
Yeah, but exhibitionism and voyeurism are two different things, and just because you like to watch does in no way imply you want to be seen by others. I think yours is just the wrong lens through which to view it. Porn is fantasy just like an action movie is. And watching an action hero mow down a bunch of enemies with no remorse does not mean I would want to do the same thing. But for a second you imagine yourself being in the hero's shoes and doing all that. And you regret nothing because you know the villains are not real.
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 12, 2016, 11:22 PM
 
Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
When do Christians show that reverence? After they buy her from her father? Or collect her as spoils of war perhaps?
You're thinking of Islam, or Game of Thrones, Christians haven't done anything like that in centuries. I hate to tell you this, but the Crusades ended some time ago.

Originally Posted by Waragainstsleep View Post
Oh thats cute that you think that.

One day when we are all educated to a decent level, religion will be an equally amusing and appalling footnote in human history.
Just the way it is, religion will be fashionable again in our lifetimes.
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nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
Cap'n Tightpants  (op)
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Sep 12, 2016, 11:26 PM
 
Originally Posted by Laminar View Post
One can assume he was in love before getting married. Even if they chose not to have sex with each other before getting married, was there never a frank conversation about sexual history, preferences, and expectations?
Apparently not, going by what happened.
"I have a dream, that my four little children will one day live in a
nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin,
but by the content of their character." - M.L.King Jr
     
 
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